Hypothetically, how far can a person go?

[mconder]

Hypothetically, how far can we all go without being arrested? I believe the founders would see us as a bunch of pussies to be putting up with these Marxists running our country into the ground. Does anyone else think we are not doing enough? What are we going to risk to bring these people to justice?

[Kludge]

Justice is nice, but not worth my life.

[nate895]

Secede first, then they will be the ones who use force to suppress us.

[Austin]

Justice is nice, but not worth my life.
What is worth your life?

[heavenlyboy34]

Hypothetically, how far can we all go without being arrested? I believe the founders would see us as a bunch of pussies to be putting up with these Marxists running our country into the ground. Does anyone else think we are not doing enough? What are we going to risk to bring these people to justice?

What do you hope to do? You're outgunned and outnumbered. :( (this is why I advocate private ownership of heavy arms and nukes, btw.)

[mediahasyou]

This pull only gives two options. In reality there are more.

We must not accept the current government peaceably and coexist. There is your freedom. Acknowledge it and you are free. http://www.voluntaryist.com/articles/073.php

[mconder]

What do you hope to do? You're outgunned and outnumbered.

I don't know what I expected to accomplish by this post. I really fell as though everything is closing in around me. I will likely loose my job this next year and it will be very difficult to find employment in my field due to current market conditions and outsourcing. My family, wife and four children have a very tenuous future and it's because of these rat bastards in Washington. They need to pay for their crimes! I am tired of accepting what the founders would have been outraged over. The founders would think us a bunch of pussies if they could only see what we put up with from our Government.

[mconder]

We must not accept the current government peaceably and coexist. There is your freedom. Acknowledge it and you are free.

They are not going to let us peacefully withdraw from their influence. There is no way you can escape what they are putting in place around us. Economic life as we have known it in America is coming to an end very soon. It is only when we are completely impoverished that we will truely see the level of control these people have over us.

[MsDoodahs]

I don't know what I expected to accomplish by this post. I really fell as though everything is closing in around me. I will likely loose my job this next year and it will be very difficult to find employment in my field due to current market conditions and outsourcing. My family, wife and four children have a very tenuous future and it's because of these rat bastards in Washington. They need to pay for their crimes! I am tired of accepting what the founders would have been outraged over. The founders would think us a bunch of pussies if they could only see what we put up with from our Government.

You feel that it is closing in tighter and tighter because it IS closing in tighter and tighter.

The founders would be ASHAMED of what we are putting up with - Ron Paul in Iowa.

He's right.

They would be.

[MsDoodahs]

There is no way you can escape what they are putting in place around us.

You mean *the one* has effectively closed our southern border?

:D

(Joke, trying to lighten the mood.)

[M House]

Naw you can just walk around that. It's like our own attempt at the Great Wall of China.

[Zolah]

They have the Fabian society because they realised violent revolution won't be successful, I don't think we can rely on violent revolution ourselves to topple the Fabian socialists.

[cablesalt]

Justice is nice, but not worth my life.

What is then?

[Original_Intent]

I don't know what I expected to accomplish by this post. I really fell as though everything is closing in around me. I will likely loose my job this next year and it will be very difficult to find employment in my field due to current market conditions and outsourcing. My family, wife and four children have a very tenuous future and it's because of these rat bastards in Washington. They need to pay for their crimes! I am tired of accepting what the founders would have been outraged over. The founders would think us a bunch of pussies if they could only see what we put up with from our Government.

I tend to agree with you, fellow Utahn, but I am not going to throw my life away. If a state seceded and US Fed tried to force them back into the country ala the War of Northern Aggression, I would be there. Maybe it is cowardice, I am not willing to go all Timothy McVeigh on FedGov just because things are going to hell in a handbasket.

As things get worse, more people will wake up and I think we have to be there with REAL answers to counter the BS propaganda. I have people that thought I was a nutcase a year ago that now pay pretty close attention to what I say.

There is still hope I think. It may come to bloodshed. I think the more people we get awake the better chance we have to win without a fight, and of course the better chance we have if it comes to a fight.

I completely hear your concerns and frustrations with the status quo.

[nate895]

Why is everyone ignoring the obvious: force their hand?

Why must we be the ones who start a revolution? Why can't we attempt, in good faith, to leave peacefully? If they attempt to stop us, we can then put up one hell of fight.

[mediahasyou]

They are not going to let us peacefully withdraw from their influence. There is no way you can escape what they are putting in place around us. Economic life as we have known it in America is coming to an end very soon. It is only when we are completely impoverished that we will truely see the level of control these people have over us.

Try it.

Remove yourself from the government.
Stop paying taxes.
Stop voting.
Stop using anything of the government.
Peacefully exist without the laws of the state applying.

Acknowledge yourself as a person, not a subject.
Free your mind.

[Original_Intent]

They have the Fabian society because they realised violent revolution won't be successful, I don't think we can rely on violent revolution ourselves to topple the Fabian socialists.

Yep revolutions have a history of being used and then discarded and the new people who take power are worse than the leaders you ousted.

[malkusm]

Justice is nice, but not worth my life.

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
-Samuel Adams

(stolen from Aravoth's sig)

[mconder]

You feel that it is closing in tighter and tighter because it IS closing in tighter and tighter.

My wife and I are on high alert. We are storing food and ammo like crazy. I am not going to be in the f'ing bread lines while they take my guns.

[Kludge]

What is worth your life?


What is then?

My soul (integrity). Everything else is worthless, as far as I'm concerned.

Everything is a privilege in life.

[mconder]

Why must we be the ones who start a revolution? Why can't we attempt, in good faith, to leave peacefully? If they attempt to stop us, we can then put up one hell of fight.

Because they will just pick us off one at a time like Erwin Schiff and others. There will be no chance of resistance because they will get every last one of us one way or another. Hell there's probably a law that says I can't save food for a rainy day.

[mconder]

Everything is a privilege in life.

Then hopefully it will be my privilege to see these people tried and punished for their subversion of the LAW. These Fiends need to experience JUSTICE!

[Kludge]

These Fiends need to experience JUSTICE!

Why? What difference will it make in your life whether or not someone is punished?

[mconder]

Why? What difference will it make in your life whether or not someone is punished?

When justice finds the guilty, it keeps other innocents from suffering. Seriously, WTF! What kind of question is this? Why don't we just let all those who have been convicted of violent crime out of prison? Do we really need to have a discussion about whether those who break the LAW should be punished?

[Truth Warrior]

About 12,000 miles, beyond that you're coming back. :D

[nate895]

Because they will just pick us off one at a time like Erwin Schiff and others. There will be no chance of resistance because they will get every last one of us one way or another. Hell there's probably a law that says I can't save food for a rainy day.

I meant a whole region or a large state secede.

Song "To Arms in Dixie":

Southern men the thunders mutter!
Northern flags in South winds flutter!
To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!
Send them back your fierce defiance!
Stamp upon the cursed alliance!
To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie

CHORUS:
Advance the flag of Dixie!
Hurrah! Hurrah!
For Dixie's land we take our stand,
And live or die for Dixie!
To arms! To arms!
And conquer peace for Dixie!
To arms! To arms!
And conquer peace for Dixie!

Fear no danger! Shun no labor!
Lift up rifle, pike, and sabre!
To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!
Shoulder pressing close to shoulder,
Let the odds make each heart bolder!
To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!

CHORUS

Swear upon your country's altar
Never to submit or falter
To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!
Till the spoilers are defeated,
Till the Lord's work is completed!
To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!

[Original_Intent]

When justice finds the guilty, it keeps other innocents from suffering. Seriously, WTF! What kind of question is this? Why don't we just let all those who have been convicted of violent crime out of prison? Do we really need to have a discussion about whether those who break the LAW should be punished?

Just repeat to yourself "Kludge is a douche". It helps.

[Kludge]

When justice finds the guilty, it keeps other innocents from suffering. Seriously, WTF! What kind of question is this? Why don't we just let all those who have been convicted of violent crime out of prison? Do we really need to have a discussion about whether those who break the LAW should be punished?

Yes. I believe punishment exists only to deter aggressive actions for idiots who need the deterrence. Rehabilitation would be ideal, but some people are really too stupid to respect themselves and others. They should probably be exiled or locked up, but gouging out their eye or something like that will only make them more sneaky in the future when they aggress.

[Rael]

I think its going to be a combination of both. Perhaps a handful of states simply refusing to obey the federal government any more, and when the feds try to enforce it, the people of the states meet violence with violence.

[dr. hfn]

if someone starts the war, i will fight!

[tangent4ronpaul]

Well, if you are climbing a stack of bailout money - that's about to the moon, back again, and to the moon again.

I'm really supprised we have any trees left in this country...

But yeah - recent events have me thinking a civil war is a lot more likely.

-t

[Pauls' Revere]

Justice is nice, but not worth my life.

What's a life without justice?

[newbitech]

people are running out of options. soon it will be every man for himself. armed gangs roaming our streets are on the horizon. prepare for marshal law. i will now bow to the crown.

[pcosmar]

I take the 5th
Can't vote on the grounds that it may incriminate me.

However here is some food for thought.
http://www.nolanchart.com/article5211.html

So, as much as these Fabian Elites have put into this system, as much as they seemed to think they could continue the control of the system and extend it globally, they appear to have deluded themselves into thinking that an economic system built solely upon the creation and extension of debt was sustainable indefinitely. The Debt Standard of Fiat Money, based upon labor exchange and debt expansion will collapse, it is a mathematical impossibility for it to continue and with that collapse the Fabian Elite will lose not only their ability to maintain their power, but they will lose their wealth and position in our country and others. Once the collapse of the monetary and economic systems occur, they will have no options left to them, there will be nothing they can do to salvage the system.

There can be no doubt that during this time of collapse the Fabian Socialists will show their true nature, the heart of which is brutal disregard of the individual. They will attempt to put a death grip on society, squeezing as much life as they can from it and will do so in the most extreme ways imaginable. We must however, never relent or retreat from our principles, from our goal of Liberty and Freedom, even when the Fabian New World Order Thugs begin their final oppressive push to retain their power and wealth.

There will be a period of chaos, during this period we must consider the Elite as absolute enemies of the People, of Liberty and Freedom. During that period we must consider such criminals the legitimate focus for the People's Justice. I personally see no other options but the total and absolute elimination of the sources of this Fabian Socialist plague from our land. Until this land is purged from the influence of this Fabian Socialist Ideology the Constitutional Republic will not be safe for Liberty and Freedom, nor will prosperity ever return as long as they remain a viable force.

[Kludge]

What's a life without justice?

A life, yeh got danged poverty-minded libertarian. You think your life is lesser because we gots Trust Fund babies runnin' around buyin' hookers, big screen TVs, and gold with money they ain't even earned, or sum'in?

What next, yeh gonna be tellin' me that the fat guy you work with at Walmart be takin' the easy job of carry'een groceries while you gotsta work at pushin' all dem carts 'round be makin' you sad & mad?


More QQ, please.

[Truth Warrior]

What's a life without justice? A life without justice. ;)

[Truth Warrior]

Well, if you are climbing a stack of bailout money - that's about to the moon, back again, and to the moon again.

I'm really supprised we have any trees left in this country...

But yeah - recent events have me thinking a civil war is a lot more likely.

-t I think they're on the electron standard now. as the current monetary backing commodity. It takes up less space and fewer trees. Plus it's a lot cheaper and quicker. ;)

[constituent]

Hypothetically, how far can we all go without being arrested? I believe the founders would see us as a bunch of pussies to be putting up with these Marxists running our country into the ground. Does anyone else think we are not doing enough? What are we going to risk to bring these people to justice?

The question here is what it is that you're trying to achieve, who cares how some long-dead stiffs might label you (as if they occupied some sort of moral high-ground anyway)?

You say that your desire is "JUSTICE," but what does that mean to you?

[In other words, are we talking about "peace and justice" or "JUSTICE (with a snarl)?"]

Is it your desire to see criminals punished and wrongs righted, or do you wish for something a bit more sinister?

Either way, which criminals? what crimes? ...and as for just punishment, what is it exactly that you'd prescribe?

Specifically, to whom do you refer when you say "these Marxists?"

Perhaps you are still pissed off at G. dub, etc.? Perhaps you're talking about Obama and your elected representatives, maybe all of the above (in other words, maybe it's a 'fuck the world' kinda trip)? And again, which specific crimes do you want to see punished? How will you go about getting yourself (or government) in a position where such a thing will represent even a remote possibility?

If you did find yourself in such a situation, how can you be sure (or assure us) that your actions 'under pressure' would be any the better than those we see taken now?

Again you seek "JUSTICE" but to what end, to serve what purpose? Retribution? Revenge? Catalysis? Catharsis?


How far can you go? Depends on the direction you're headed in, I guess (score 1 TW).

Besides, what good will it do? You'll still encourage others to flock like pilgrims and pray before their marble monuments and temples, probably even do it yourself a time or two, no?



I don't know what I expected to accomplish by this post. I really fell as though everything is closing in around me. I will likely loose my job this next year and it will be very difficult to find employment in my field due to current market conditions and outsourcing.

You're scapegoating, and it's rather unbecoming of you. Be a man, stand-up for yourself and accept responsibility for the times/places that you've failed to prepare yourself for just such a moment. Your life is your life, you bear ultimate responsibility for the cumulative experiences and outcomes that result (don't worry, it's actually a good thing even when it sucks). Perhaps you've spent too much time pursuing successes in a world not worthy of your efforts (food for thought)?


My family, wife and four children have a very tenuous future and it's because of these rat bastards in Washington.

Show me a future that is not tenuous, point me to the man whose continued life is a given, an existence not spent dangling by threads or grasping for straws (good luck).



They need to pay for their crimes! I am tired of accepting what the founders would have been outraged over. The founders would think us a bunch of pussies if they could only see what we put up with from our Government.

1) Your whole perspective on the birth of this government is fundamentally flawed.

2) On Justice and paying for crimes, read above.

3) If you're tired of accepting "it," do "something" about "it." I recommend raising children to know better about the world they occupy than we did, fuck politicians and fuck d.c.


When justice finds the guilty, it keeps other innocents from suffering.

...and the death penalty is a great deterrent, just ask Texas.






No person, no government, no thing can give you the life you want to lead, nor make it safe for you to live in the manner you might choose. Freedom begins from within.

"Do you know where the power lies? I say it starts and ends with you."
-Rancid

[Pauls' Revere]

A life, yeh got danged poverty-minded libertarian. You think your life is lesser because we gots Trust Fund babies runnin' around buyin' hookers, big screen TVs, and gold with money they ain't even earned, or sum'in?

What next, yeh gonna be tellin' me that the fat guy you work with at Walmart be takin' the easy job of carry'een groceries while you gotsta work at pushin' all dem carts 'round be makin' you sad & mad?


More QQ, please.

justice is then arbitrary?

[Truth Warrior]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justice (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justice)

[mconder]

They should probably be exiled or locked up, but gouging out their eye or something like that will only make them more sneaky in the future when they aggress.

The punishments for those in positions of public trust should be 10x greater than for a private citizen.

[Kludge]

justice is then arbitrary?

Man-made justice is to deter aggression of fools too stupid to respect themselves and others. Ideally, it would be arbitrary. For our collectively unethical and uneducated society, however, it is necessary to prevent aggression.

Even so, it is obvious that governments will do whatever they want, because we (Americans) do whatever we want, and we are government. Collectively and generally, we don't restrain ourselves from aggressing, and are no better than those same politicians who violate our rights in the name of "justice" or utilitarianism. I'm convinced that we aren't ready for liberty, and that until we educate people, any positive impact we have on government will be temporary, and ultimately insignificant.

Man's justice should have no impact on your life at any rate, especially if you're a Christian. Thus, to kill on a delusional crusade of "justice" (Man is not capable of Objectivity, so those whose rights we violate may not even deserve the fate) is irrational.

[youngbuck]

Can someone edit the poll and add the option for "Kludge is a douche"? :confused::D

[constituent]

Even so, it is obvious that governments will do whatever they want, because we (Americans) do whatever we want, and we are government. Collectively and generally, we don't restrain ourselves from aggressing, and are no better than those same politicians who violate our rights in the name of "justice" or utilitarianism. I'm convinced that we aren't ready for liberty, and that until we educate people, any positive impact we have on government will be temporary, and ultimately insignificant.

Man's justice should have no impact on your life at any rate, especially if you're a Christian. Thus, to kill on a delusional crusade of "justice" (Man is not capable of Objectivity, so those whose rights we violate may not even deserve the fate) is irrational.

Well said.



Collectively and generally, we don't restrain ourselves from aggressing, and are no better than those same politicians who violate our rights in the name of "justice" or utilitarianism.

Worth repeating.



I'm convinced that we aren't ready for liberty, and that until we educate people, any positive impact we have on government will be temporary, and ultimately insignificant.


I'd go one step further than insignificant and say counterproductive.

[Pauls' Revere]

Man-made justice is to deter aggression of fools too stupid to respect themselves and others. Ideally, it would be arbitrary. For our collectively unethical and uneducated society, however, it is necessary to prevent aggression.

Even so, it is obvious that governments will do whatever they want, because we (Americans) do whatever we want, and we are government. Collectively and generally, we don't restrain ourselves from aggressing, and are no better than those same politicians who violate our rights in the name of "justice" or utilitarianism. I'm convinced that we aren't ready for liberty, and that until we educate people, any positive impact we have on government will be temporary, and ultimately insignificant.

Man's justice should have no impact on your life at any rate, especially if you're a Christian. Thus, to kill on a delusional crusade of "justice" (Man is not capable of Objectivity, so those whose rights we violate may not even deserve the fate) is irrational.

I agree with much of what you said. "Justice" in the traditional sense is used as a instrument to teach society or for the the more educated to demonstrate consequenses and encourage deterrance. Conversely, we can also see how this is a tool for behavioral control. Directly for those idiots causing harm, and indirectly to demonstrate to those whom have not.

Dam right, throw the weight of politics and religon behind "justice" and you have a potent mix.

With freedom comes great personal responsibility, honestly our society (as Americans) has now defined freedom as being irresponsibile.

[tggroo7]

Yes we may very well need a revolution and force may be necessary, but that just cannot happen at the present time. If we had a much larger number of people so that success could even be possible, then it can be an option on the table. But since we are still a small minority (especially when considering those who would consider actually fighting), physical revolution is just not an option.

With that said, I don't think it will become an option even if/when we do have a large base, because then we can just spread our belief until we can take it over through democratic means. Many people here may consider this a dictatorship, but I am more realistic because it can still come down to education and elections, not a violent coup.