Stupid and Evil

[Truth Warrior]

Ichabod!


by Laurence M. Vance (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/mailto:lmvance@juno.com)


"And she named the child Ichabod, saying, The glory is departed from Israel: because the ark of God was taken, and because of her father in law and her husband." ~ 1 Samuel 4:21

It’s done, it’s over, it’s official: The Republican Party nominated John McCain to be its 2008 presidential candidate. Conversely, and more importantly, this means that the Republican Party failed to nominate Ron Paul to be its 2008 presidential candidate.
It wouldn’t normally matter whom the Republican Party nominated. Bigger government and less liberty have always been the result. And if you think Reagan (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/018976.html) was an exception then you are sadly mistaken.

This time, however, the Republicans had a chance to nominate the only candidate who embodies everything good that the Republican Party has ever claimed to stand for. Ron Paul is undoubtedly the most pro-life, pro-family, pro-property, pro-liberty, pro-Constitution candidate in history.

The Republican Party and its apologists that write for the red-state fascist blogs and magazines and host the reich-wing nationalist TV and radio talk shows did everything they could to persuade people from voting for Dr. Paul in the Republican primaries.

The nomination of John McCain over Ron Paul means that the Republican Party should never again be taken seriously when it comes to even the slightest pretense of being a friend of liberty, free markets, and limited government.

Ichabod!

In the Old Testament book of First Samuel we read of the death of Eli, who judged Israel for forty years, and the birth of his grandson. During a battle with the Philistines, Israel lost thirty thousand men, including the two sons of Eli, and had their ark of the covenant taken. A messenger ran to the Israelites and, after a tumult was raised, Eli inquired of the man what the problem was. After the messenger told him what had befallen Israel, his two sons, and the ark of God, Eli fell backwards and broke his neck. When his daughter in law, who was great with child, heard that the ark was taken by the Philistines, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she died after giving birth to a child, but not before naming the child Ichabod, because "the glory is departed from Israel: for the ark of God is taken" (1 Samuel 4:22).

Whatever glory the Republican Party may have had when it came to liberty and limited government is now departed, and with a vengeance, judging by the treatment given (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/022668.html) to Ron Paul supporters at the Republican convention



I have written about the evils of the Republican Party here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance15.html), here (http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0407d.asp), here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance33.html), here (http://www.mises.org/story/1793), here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance67.html), here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance86.html), here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance96.html), here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance105.html), and here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance118.html). Others, like Thomas DiLorenzo (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo84.html), Clyde Wilson (http://www.lewrockwell.com/wilson/wilson20.html), Jacob Hornberger (http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger108.html), and Chris Leithner (http://www.leithner.com.au/newsletter/sep08_newsletter.pdf), have done the same, and in great detail. Here are the Republican Party campaign slogans that you will never hear this year:

Interventionism, at home and abroad: Vote Republican.
Nationalism, fascism, and statism: Vote Republican.
Militarism, puritanism, and collectivism: Vote Republican.
Debt, deficits, and a declining dollar: Vote Republican.
Big government, big brother, big budgets: Vote Republican.
The warfare state, the welfare state, the surveillance state: Vote Republican.
Corporate welfare, the military-industrial and security-industrial complexes: Vote Republican.
Compromises after compromise, sellout after sellout: Vote Republican.
There is not a dime’s worth of difference between the Democratic and Republican Parties when it comes to peace, liberty, property, free markets, sound money, and the size and scope of government. The Republican Party is not the lesser of two evils. It is, like the Democratic Party, stupid and evil. Ichabod!


September 5, 2008


Laurence M. Vance [send him mail (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/mailto:lmvance@juno.com)] writes from Pensacola, FL. His latest book is a new and greatly expanded edition of Christianity and War and Other Essays Against the Warfare State (http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Other-Essays-Against-Warfare/dp/0976344858/lewrockwell/). Visit his website (http://www.vancepublications.com/).


Copyright © 2008 LewRockwell.com


Laurence M. Vance Archives (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance-arch.html)


Find this article at:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance148.html

[Cinderella]

nice read thank u

[Original_Intent]

Thanks TW.

[Truth Warrior]

nice read thank u You're welcome. ;) :)

[LibertyEagle]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/liberty_08/TruthWarriordissingRonPaul-1.jpg

[Original_Intent]

/grabs popcorn! :p

[Truth Warrior]

http://www.montanatractors.com/ (http://www.montanatractors.com/)

[heavenlyboy34]

RP is anti-establishment, TW's post is anti-establishment. By that measure, he is supporting RP. I hope that answers your question.:)


http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/liberty_08/TruthWarriordissingRonPaul.jpg

[Truth Warrior]

RP is anti-establishment, TW's post is anti-establishment. By that measure, he is supporting RP. I hope that answers your question.:)


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/lewrock0305a.gif


"Visit LewRockwell.com, an outstanding and crucially important Web site I visit every day." -- Ron Paul.
"THE REVOLUTION, A MANIFESTO" ( page # 158 ), http://www.lewrockwell.com/ (http://www.lewrockwell.com/) ;)

[LibertyEagle]

RP is anti-establishment, TW's post is anti-establishment. By that measure, he is supporting RP. I hope that answers your question.:)

So are Communists.

However, they have little in common with the principles we are fighting for in this movement. In fact, I don't believe it is a stretch to say they are the exact opposite of what we're about.

[Truth Warrior]

are .

http://www.mahindrausa.com/ (http://www.mahindrausa.com/)

[M House]

Jeez, I'd like to be the 1st to suggest that TW and LE never date.

[LibertyEagle]

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/lewrock0305a.gif



Lew Rockwell doesn't quote Fabian-Socialists in a positive light. You do.

[Truth Warrior]

Jeez, I'd like to be the 1st to suggest that TW and LE never date. Uhhh, you're NOT the first. ;)

< LMAO! > :D

[M House]

Where you from TW?

[Truth Warrior]

Where you from TW?

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/andromeda-bg.jpg

:D

[M House]

Is that Texas like LE, here? Careful she might find you and clip your cable.

[Truth Warrior]

Is that Texas like LE, here? Careful she might find you and clip your cable. Nope! :D

You know the good part about all those executions in Texas? Fewer Texans.
George Carlin (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_carlin.html)

[Truth Warrior]

in

http://www.siromer.net/ (http://www.siromer.net/)

[heavenlyboy34]

Nope! :D

You know the good part about all those executions in Texas? Fewer Texans.
George Carlin (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_carlin.html)

LOL!! That was a funny routine! ;):D (I heard a recording of it years ago)

[Original_Intent]

Jeez, I'd like to be the 1st to suggest that TW and LE never date.

Actually, I think LE is kinda crushing on TW.

If that doesn't get me banned, I am feeling pretty much invulnerable. :D

[M House]

Seriously, HB and TW you're turning into the Batman and Robin of the forums stop.

[LibertyEagle]

Actually, I think LE is kinda crushing on TW.

If that doesn't get me banned, I am feeling pretty much invulnerable. :D

:eek:

NOT.

[Truth Warrior]

:eek:

http://www.northerntool.com/tractors/ (http://www.northerntool.com/tractors/)

[heavenlyboy34]

Seriously, HB and TW you're turning into the Batman and Robin of the forums stop.

:eek: lol...I play "Robin" to NOONE. :p You're not paying enough attention, and this causes you to fail. :( Keep up, and you'll get it eventually.:)

[LibertyEagle]

Seriously, HB and TW you're turning into the Batman and Robin of the forums stop.

More like Elton John and David Furnish. :p

[Original_Intent]

OK I apologize LE, but seriously as soon as TW posted the thread I was kind of "eagerly anticipating" your response. :D

Women so hate being predictable! :D

[M House]

Which one's Elton John?

[LibertyEagle]

Watch out hb, it looks like TW has a tractor fettish going on right now. :)

[Truth Warrior]

Seriously, HB and TW you're turning into the Batman and Robin of the forums stop. He just followed me home one day.

Can I keep him?

:D

[heavenlyboy34]

He just followed me home one day.

Can I keep him?

:D

I did? Did someone slip me a mickey or something? :confused::eek:

[M House]

I think it's time to let Darkwing fledge, bro.

[Truth Warrior]

out

http://www.tym-tractors.com/ (http://www.tym-tractors.com/)

[heavenlyboy34]

Watch out hb, it looks like TW has a tractor fettish going on right now. :)

:eek: I hope he doesn't hurt you. :(

[heavenlyboy34]

I think it's time to let Darkwing fledge, bro.
:confused: What?

[LibertyEagle]

:eek: I hope he doesn't hurt you. :(

I'm not the one following behind him, lapping at his feet.

[LibertyEagle]

He just followed me home one day.

Can I keep him?

:D

Actually, I just wanted to preserve this.

Whatcha think about this, hb?

[Truth Warrior]

the

http://www.caseheritage.org/ (http://www.caseheritage.org/)

[LibertyEagle]

http://www.caseheritage.org/ (http://www.caseheritage.org/)

Yup. A tractor fettish. :p

[Truth Warrior]

Yup

http://www.kenotractors.com/ (http://www.kenotractors.com/)

[heavenlyboy34]

I'm not the one following behind him, lapping at his feet.

You still think this? :confused: Fail. :p:( I agree with certain things he says, and find his writings/postings interesting. We're different individuals who happen to find common ground on many issues. If there were someone else on here I got along with as well as TW, I'd have my own webbernet "clique". It's one big cosmic coincidence that TW is the only one like him on here. Off of RPF, I hardly have any friends, and do most things myself. Get over yourself.

I don't DO cult worship, LE. :rolleyes: I leave that for those who believe in personality cults in politics/culture. ;) (present company included)

[LibertyEagle]

I don't DO cult worship, LE. :rolleyes:

Have you reviewed your posts lately? ;)


It's one big cosmic coincidence that TW is the only one like him on here.
Not really. Most of us are here because we admire Ron Paul and are here to further the freedom movement. Such is not the case with TW.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/liberty_08/TruthWarrior-Imnothereforthemovemen.jpg

[Truth Warrior]

You still think this? :confused: Fail. :p:( I agree with certain things he says, and find his writings/postings interesting. We're different individuals who happen to find common ground on many issues. If there were someone else on here I got along with as well as TW, I'd have my own webbernet "clique". It's one big cosmic coincidence that TW is the only one like him on here. Off of RPF, I hardly have any friends, and do most things myself. Get over yourself.

I don't DO cult worship, LE. :rolleyes: I leave that for those who believe in personality cults in politics/culture. ;) (present company included) And coincidentally, I don't DO cult. :D

[Truth Warrior]

posts

http://www.farm-tractors.com/ (http://www.farm-tractors.com/)

[Original_Intent]

TW, your noise to signal ratio is getting pretty bad - or maybe the problem is on my end. :rolleyes:

[heavenlyboy34]

Have you reviewed your posts lately? ;)

I have...you don't get the joke? I thought it was pretty clear. Watch "The Karate Kid", and the humor of it will make more sense to you, I bet.

[M House]

You need a filter. Maybe a high-bypass plus a simple varicap.

[Truth Warrior]

TW, your noise to signal ratio is getting pretty bad - or maybe the problem is on my end. :rolleyes: Could just be.<IMHO> ;) :D

[M House]

LE is a middle aged woman HB if she's watched the Karate Kid that would be kinda funny.

[heavenlyboy34]

LE is a middle aged woman HB if she's watched the Karate Kid that would be kinda funny.

lol

[Original_Intent]

LE is a middle aged woman HB if she's watched the Karate Kid that would be kinda funny.

My wife is a middle aged woman and she's watched all of them.

[LibertyEagle]

LE is a middle aged woman HB if she's watched the Karate Kid that would be kinda funny.

It came out in 1984, so yes, I saw it. :rolleyes:

By the way, I've also watched the Harry Potter movies. :)

[M House]

Slap her on the butt for me and quote a line from the movie. I dare you.

[LibertyEagle]

Slap her on the butt for me and quote a line from the movie. I dare you.

How old are YOU? :rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

1984

http://www.ytmag.com/store/index.htm (http://www.ytmag.com/store/index.htm)

[M House]

25, should be alittle more mature..... I blame it on my parents.

[Truth Warrior]

old


http://construction.newholland.com/home.aspx?RL=ENNA (http://construction.newholland.com/home.aspx?RL=ENNA)

[heavenlyboy34]

It came out in 1984, so yes, I saw it. :rolleyes:

By the way, I've also watched the Harry Potter movies. :)

Now you understand the joke, I hope. :) ~hug~

[LibertyEagle]

Now you understand the joke, I hope. :) ~hug~

There was no joke. Or are you trying to act like Collins now?

And please can the "hug" BS. :rolleyes:

[heavenlyboy34]

There was no joke. Or are you trying to act like Collins now?

And please can the "hug" BS. :rolleyes:

I'm referring to my "sensei" shtick when I said "joke". I don't care much for Collins, personally. :p

[Truth Warrior]

joke

+ Floods of low-value material may be subject to being moved into an alternate sub-forum or deleted. More tolerance will be allowed for established members. Reason: Excessive low value posts dilute users time spent on the forum just reading topic threads.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22)

[Truth Warrior]

Thanks TW.

You're welcome. ;) :)

[LibertyEagle]

+ Floods of low-value material may be subject to being moved into an alternate sub-forum or deleted. More tolerance will be allowed for established members. Reason: Excessive low value posts dilute users time spent on the forum just reading topic threads.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22)

You're the one spamming the thread with links to tractors. :D

[M House]

LE thinks your tractor's sexy TW. So stop posting it.

[M House]

Plowin' these fields in the hot summer sun
Over by the gate lordy here she comes
With a basket full of chicken and a big cold jug of sweet tea
I make a little room and she climbs on up
Open up a throttle and stir a little dust
Just look at her face she ain't a foolin' me

She thinks my tractor's sexy
It really turns her on
She's always starin' at me
While I'm chuggin' along
She likes the way it's pullin' while we're tillin' up the land
She's even kind of crazy 'bout my farmer's tan
She's the only one who really understands what gets me
She thinks my tractor's sexy

We ride back and forth 'til we run out of light
Take it to the barn put it up for the night
Climb up in the loft sit and talk with the radio on
She said she's got a dream and I asked what it is
She wants a little farm and a yard full of kids
One more teeny weeny ride before take her home

She thinks my tractor's sexy
It really turns her on
She's always starin' at me
While I'm chuggin' along
She likes the way it's pullin' while we're tillin' up the land
She's even kind of crazy 'bout my farmer's tan
She's the only one who really understands what gets me
She thinks my tractor's sexy

Well she ain't into cars or pickup trucks
But if it runs like a Deere man her eyes light up

She thinks my tractor's
She thinks my tractor's sexy
It really turns her on
She's always starin' at me
While I'm chuggin' along
She likes the way it's pullin' while we're tillin' up the land
She's even kind of crazy 'bout my farmer's tan
She's the only one who really understands what gets me
She thinks my tractor's sexy
She thinks my tractor's sexy
She thinks my tractor's sexy
© EMI BLACKWOOD MUSIC INC.;

[LibertyEagle]

LE thinks your tractor's sexy TW. So stop posting it.

:rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

tractors. In response to YOUR OFF TOPIC "low-value material" spam posts ONLY. ;)

+ Floods of low-value material may be subject to being moved into an alternate sub-forum or deleted. More tolerance will be allowed for established members. Reason: Excessive low value posts dilute users time spent on the forum just reading topic threads.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22)

http://www.kioti.com/products/tractors/tractors_list.asp (http://www.kioti.com/products/tractors/tractors_list.asp)

[pinkmandy]

Good article- prompted me to read more of Vance's writings. I like him a lot from what I've read thus far so thanks for sharing!

And why the attacks on TW? I like reading his stuff. If you don't, well, why even open his threads? After reading all the threads decrying the bashing of Christians because we need everyone possible in this fight for liberty I find the attacks on one of our members kind of ironic. Not everyone who believes in freedom fits in the same box and we shouldn't be pushing anyone away...right? Wasn't that the jist of the lectures in the Christian threads? So no bashing Christians because we need them but if you wanna bash someone else who believes in freedom based on different beliefs, so what? :confused:

[heavenlyboy34]

Good article- prompted me to read more of Vance's writings. I like him a lot from what I've read thus far so thanks for sharing!

And why the attacks on TW? I like reading his stuff. If you don't, well, why even open his threads? After reading all the threads decrying the bashing of Christians because we need everyone possible in this fight for liberty I find the attacks on one of our members kind of ironic. Not everyone who believes in freedom fits in the same box and we shouldn't be pushing anyone away...right? Wasn't that the jist of the lectures in the Christian threads? So no bashing Christians because we need them but if you wanna bash someone else who believes in freedom based on different beliefs, so what? :confused:

+1

[M House]

I kinda just thought this mostly was a typical LE vs. TW thread. Then he started posting about tractors and things got crazy.

[LibertyEagle]

If displaying his own words, which indicate his stances, is considered an attack, we have a totally different issue going on here.

[Truth Warrior]

Good article- prompted me to read more of Vance's writings. I like him a lot from what I've read thus far so thanks for sharing!

And why the attacks on TW? I like reading his stuff. If you don't, well, why even open his threads? After reading all the threads decrying the bashing of Christians because we need everyone possible in this fight for liberty I find the attacks on one of our members kind of ironic. Not everyone who believes in freedom fits in the same box and we shouldn't be pushing anyone away...right? Wasn't that the jist of the lectures in the Christian threads? So no bashing Christians because we need them but if you wanna bash someone else who believes in freedom based on different beliefs, so what? :confused:

You're welcome!

Thanks! :)

FYI ... ;)

Laurence M. Vance Archives (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance-arch.html)

[Truth Warrior]

indicate

http://www.hobbytractors.com/ (http://www.hobbytractors.com/)

[Truth Warrior]

I did? Did someone slip me a mickey or something? :confused::eek: Not me, I'm opposed to aggression, on principle. ;)

[Zuras]

The Republican Party and its apologists that write for the red-state fascist blogs and magazines and host the reich-wing nationalist TV and radio talk shows did everything they could to persuade people from voting for Dr. Paul in the Republican primaries.

Wow, how many canards can you cram into a single paragraph? Never seen a bigger crypto-lefty hallmark. Maybe he's just burnt he has confused conservatism with libertarianism, and those grapes are mighty sour. The media went out of its way to select McCain, sure, I agree. But it wasn't the "reich wing". it was every wing ...and a tail ... and seven heads. It mattered little. The beast would merely devour the sacraficial repub lamb on the altar of Obamination in the latter days of the bleak decade of the neocon empire.

This election cycle was so rigged, mickey mouse/donald duck could have beaten a resurrected Abe Lincoln/Thomas Jefferson ticket.

[Theocrat]

TW, tell us something we don't know. It was a good article, nonetheless. Down with the GOP because it's CP (http://www.constitutionparty.com/) time!

[Truth Warrior]

The Republican Party and its apologists that write for the red-state fascist blogs and magazines and host the reich-wing nationalist TV and radio talk shows did everything they could to persuade people from voting for Dr. Paul in the Republican primaries.

Wow, how many canards can you cram into a single paragraph? Never seen a bigger crypto-lefty hallmark. Maybe he's just burnt he has confused conservatism with libertarianism, and those grapes are mighty sour. The media went out of its way to select McCain, sure, I agree. But it wasn't the "reich wing". it was every wing ...and a tail ... and seven heads. It mattered little. The beast would merely devour the sacraficial repub lamb on the altar of Obamination in the latter days of the bleak decade of the neocon empire.

This election cycle was so rigged, mickey mouse/donald duck could have beaten a resurrected Abe Lincoln/Thomas Jefferson ticket.

"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is." -- Ronald Reagan

[heavenlyboy34]

TW, tell us something we don't know. It was a good article, nonetheless. Down with the GOP because it's CP (http://www.constitutionparty.com/) time!

I'll take the CP over the same old, same old..but prefer individualism. ;):)

[heavenlyboy34]

"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is." -- Ronald Reagan

NICE! I've never heard him say that before. :eek::)

[Truth Warrior]

NICE! I've never heard him say that before. :eek::) It's a quote from an interview with Reagan in Reason magazine, back in the late 70's, I think. ;)

I can find it again if I have too. :)

[Zuras]

"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is." -- Ronald Reagan

Yes, I've usually described true conservatism as "libertarianism with baggage". But reality is reality, and I'm not interested in debating straw men suggesting the two are interchangeable.

[Truth Warrior]

Yes, I've usually described true conservatism as "libertarianism with baggage". But reality is reality, and I'm not interested in debating straw men suggesting the two are interchangeable. Neither am I, especially since the conservatives didn't bother to take and use the libertarians "brains" as well as their heart an soul. ;) :D

[LibertyEagle]

Oh goody. More divisive BS from TW.

Neither am I, especially since the conservatives didn't bother to take and use the libertarians "brains" as well as their heart an soul. ;) :D

Ok, turnabout is fair play.


Yes, I've usually described true conservatism as "libertarianism with baggage". But reality is reality, and I'm not interested in debating straw men suggesting the two are interchangeable.

Or, to say another way, conservatism is libertarianism without the libertarian penchant for child pornography and promoting recreational drug use.

------------

Well, that was fun. I'm not sure what all of this is doing to further the cause of liberty, but whatever floats your boat.

[heavenlyboy34]

Or, to say another way, conservatism is libertarianism without the libertarian penchant for child pornography and promoting recreational drug use.

If this post is any indication, conservatives borrow their fondness for fallacies from left liberals. ;)

[Truth Warrior]

Oh goody. More.

http://www.mahindrausa.com/index.php (http://www.mahindrausa.com/index.php)

[LibertyEagle]

If this post is any indication, conservatives borrow their fondness for fallacies from left liberals. ;)

Oh really?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=79467
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=140754

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=177934&highlight=drugs

These are just the first ones I nabbed. If you require more, I'll be happy to snag them. ;)

[heavenlyboy34]

Oh really?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=79467
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=140754

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=177934&highlight=drugs

These are just the first ones I nabbed. If you require more, I'll be happy to snag them. ;)

Try snagging the book "Defending Pornography" (or any other real study on pornography) and the literature on LRC about drugs/the drug war. That will be much more educational for you.;)

[Truth Warrior]

Oh really?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/ (http://www.tractorbynet.com/)

[LibertyEagle]

Try snagging the book "Defending Pornography" (or any other real study on pornography) and the literature on LRC about drugs/the drug war. That will be much more educational for you.;)

lol.

You just made my point. :D

[heavenlyboy34]

lol.

You just made my point. :D

Only if you meant to imply that I'm not concerned about social fictions, taboos, and mythology. On the surface, your point is ignorant of known facts and research. But thanks for agreeing with me. :)

[Theocrat]

Oh really?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=79467
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=140754

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=177934&highlight=drugs

These are just the first ones I nabbed. If you require more, I'll be happy to snag them. ;)

HB obviously doesn't know the difference between "libertarianism" and "libertinism." A truly conservative view is one of libertarianism proper. The sad fact is most modern libertarians have been duped into believing that libertinism is libertarianism, that is, liberty without moral standards and societal/governmental restraint. This is one reason why our "liberty movement" will continue to fail; we expect mankind to behave like animals.

[Truth Warrior]

You just made my point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractors)

[Truth Warrior]

HB obviously doesn't know the difference between "libertarianism" and "libertinism." A truly conservative view is one of libertarianism proper. The sad fact is most modern libertarians have been duped into believing that libertinism is libertarianism, that is, liberty without moral standards and societal/governmental restraint. This is one reason why our "liberty movement" will continue to fail; we expect mankind to behave like animals.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertarianism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertarianism)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertinism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertinism)


:D

[Anti Federalist]

Well, that was fun. I'm not sure what all of this is doing to further the cause of liberty, but whatever floats your boat.

I'll let you be with the ongoing TW-LE-HB battle.

But Zuras got lost on his way to Hannity dot com.

[Theocrat]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertarianism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertarianism)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertinism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertinism)


:D

Thanks for proving my point, TW. :)

[Truth Warrior]

Thanks for proving my point, TW. :) Would you care to expand on proving that point? :D

[heavenlyboy34]

HB obviously doesn't know the difference between "libertarianism" and "libertinism." A truly conservative view is one of libertarianism proper. The sad fact is most modern libertarians have been duped into believing that libertinism is libertarianism, that is, liberty without moral standards and societal/governmental restraint. This is one reason why our "liberty movement" will continue to fail; we expect mankind to behave like animals.

I'm not confused about the difference at all, thanks. I like moral standards just fine. :) I just don't expect any morality to come from the state or any man made institution, as you seem to. :( Morality comes from individuals knowing the difference between right and wrong. (Teachers like Yeshua help, too, btw) Government has always trended towards immorality because it lacks humanity. :(

[Theocrat]

Would you care to expand on proving that point? :D

You gave the definitions, and one can realize from reading them the difference between the two philosophies, which is the point I aimed at in Post #91. Libertarianism is not libertinism. There are rules to liberty, contrary to what many supporters believe about libertarianism on this forum.

[heavenlyboy34]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertarianism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertarianism)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertinism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertinism)


:D

lib⋅er⋅tar⋅i⋅an

  http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/L02/L0227500)  /ˌlɪbhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngərˈtɛərhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) [lib-er-tair-ee-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Show IPA Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html)
–noun 1. a person who advocates liberty, esp. with regard to thought or conduct.


That's how I like to think of it too. :D

[Truth Warrior]

lib⋅er⋅tar⋅i⋅an

  http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/L02/L0227500)  /ˌlɪbhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngərˈtɛərhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) [lib-er-tair-ee-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Show IPA Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html)
–noun 1. a person who advocates liberty, esp. with regard to thought or conduct.
That's how I like to think of it too. :D

I like this one best from the above options. ;)

"1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state."

[M House]

WTF? You guys get tired of debating LE?

[Truth Warrior]

WTF? You guys get tired of debating LE?

Nope, just moved on. :D

[Theocrat]

I like this one best from the above options. ;)

"1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state."

Notice the definition said "minimizing the role of the state," not "eradicating the role of the state." I just thought that should be pointed out to you, O naive voluntaryist. :p

[heavenlyboy34]

WTF? You guys get tired of debating LE?

I got tired of "debating" LE long ago. Moved on to productive activities. :)

[heavenlyboy34]

Notice the definition said "minimizing the role of the state," not "eradicating the role of the state." I just thought that should be pointed out to you, O naive voluntaryist. :p

:rolleyes: In this context, considering how the state has been behaving in practice over the last 100 years, libertarian theory has evolved to desire eradication of the state, O ignorant statist. :p

[Truth Warrior]

You gave the definitions, and one can realize from reading them the difference between the two philosophies, which is the point I aimed at in Post #91. Libertarianism is not libertinism. There are rules to liberty, contrary to what many supporters believe about libertarianism on this forum.

Thanks! :)

Actually, I REALLY prefer "freedomitarian" it's just not a word, is harder to say and doesn't sound quite right. :D

[Truth Warrior]

Notice the definition said "minimizing the role of the state," not "eradicating the role of the state." I just thought that should be pointed out to you, O naive voluntaryist. :p

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=minimizing (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=minimizing)

It's really tough to get much smaller or less than ZERO, I've often found. :D When are you statists EVER going to START to "minimize" it ANY? :rolleyes:

[Theocrat]

:rolleyes: In this context, considering how the state has been behaving in practice over the last 100 years, libertarian theory has evolved to desire eradication of the state, O ignorant statist. :p

Now you're confusing "libertarianism" with "anarchy." Maybe you should take a class in English vocabulary because you're setting up idols with the wrong tools.

By the way, I am in no way a statist, and perhaps that's another study you should do, beginning with a dictionary (or encyclopedia) and my post history. :)

[Zuras]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=minimizing (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=minimizing)

It's really tough to get much smaller or less than ZERO, I've often found. :D When are you statists ever going to start to "minimize" it ANY? :rolleyes:

You seem to be confusing anarchism and/or marxism with libertarianism. Didn't you ever take calculus? Crazy #@$% happens when you approach zero most of the time.

[Theocrat]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=minimizing (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=minimizing)

It's really tough to get much smaller or less than ZERO, I've often found. :D When are you statists ever going to start to "minimize" it ANY? :rolleyes:

"Statist" and "minimize" are contrary to each other, so the answer to your question began when you stated it.

[M House]

I'm not sure where this is going but TW doesn't want you to vote and doesn't like government. Considering you still have to pay them not to come for you this seems a bit strange. And can even still vote though it seems like it's ineffective. Then again if you stick around you can also get into a debate on anarcho-capitalism too. There's a link for that somewhere...

[Truth Warrior]

"Statist" and "minimize" are contrary to each other, so the answer to your question began when you stated it.

Right, which ONLY just brings us right back to the "libertarian" definition, does it not?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative)

Defenders and supporters of the status quo, no matter how monstrous.

That sure doesn't sound much like Ron, to me.<IMHO> :)

[M House]

So did you vote for Ron?

[Pennsylvania]

Considering you still have to pay them not to come for you this seems a bit strange.

Taxes are collected by means of duress. Ballots are not. If someone puts a gun to your head and demands your money but says you may choose not to give them your coat, would you not give them the money and keep the coat?

[Theocrat]

Right, which ONLY just brings us right back to the "libertarian" definition, does it not?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative)

Defenders and supporters of the status quo, no matter how monstrous.

That sure doesn't sound much like Ron, to me.<IMHO> :)

By your perspective, Congressman Paul is still part of the status quo because he is a member of the House of Representatives. That doesn't mean he stands for "monstrous government," just limited government. He's not so foolish to believe that no government is the answer to a civilized society (as some of his supporters are ;)). There are intelligent and good people in our civil government, you know.

[heavenlyboy34]

Now you're confusing "libertarianism" with "anarchy." Maybe you should take a class in English vocabulary because you're setting up idols with the wrong tools.

By the way, I am in no way a statist, and perhaps that's another study you should do, beginning with a dictionary (or encyclopedia) and my post history. :)

I'm fine with my English, actually. I haven't read EVERY libertarian treatise and essay yet, but enough to know that you're wrong.

You can use another term if you like, but what you say about issues like this is more often than not statist.:p

[heavenlyboy34]

By your perspective, Congressman Paul is still part of the status quo because he is a member of the House of Representatives. That doesn't mean he stands for "monstrous government," just limited government. He's not so foolish to believe that no government is the answer to a civilized society (as some of his supporters are ;)). There are intelligent and good people in our civil government, you know.

You should see how he used to talk about this before he became a republican. ;)

[Theocrat]

I'm fine with my English, actually. I haven't read EVERY libertarian treatise and essay yet, but enough to know that you're wrong.

You can use another term if you like, but what you say about issues like this is more often than not statist.:p

Right, because according to you, anyone who believes civil government has a legitimate function in a safe and secure society is a statist. :rolleyes:

Why do you call yourself an American again (assuming you're from America)?

[Truth Warrior]

By your perspective, Congressman Paul is still part of the status quo because he is a member of the House of Representatives. That doesn't mean he stands for "monstrous government," just limited government. He's not so foolish to believe that no government is the answer to a civilized society (as some of his supporters are ;)). There are intelligent and good people in our civil government, you know. Your perception of my perspective is sadly STILL dishonest, flawed and faulty, by CHOICE.<IMHO> :(

Ron works in his ways, and I work in mine. There's a LOT of overlap. ;) We agree on the problems, not on the solutions. Ron seems to believe that the system can be "fixed". I do not share in his belief.

Have you visited LRC today ( or in this or in the last year )?

Ron Paul Archives (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul-arch.html)

[heavenlyboy34]

Right, because according to you, anyone who believes civil government has a legitimate function in a safe and secure society is a statist. :rolleyes:

Why do you call yourself an American again (assuming you're from America)?

You didn't describe civil government, IMHO. What you've described in my experience with you is a nanny state. :( If you didn't mean that, then n/m.

I can call myself American because I'm an individual who happens to be from a place currently called "America". Equally important- I'm human. :)