D'Souza says Christianity Formed Western Culture

[tonesforjonesbones]

This is important to remember..even if you are not a Christian...tones

Let me conclude with a warning first issued by one of Western civilization’s greatest atheists, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. The ideas that define Western civilization, Nietzsche said, are based on Christianity. Because some of these ideas seem to have taken on a life of their own, we might have the illusion that we can abandon Christianity while retaining them. This illusion, Nietzsche warns us, is just that. Remove Christianity and the ideas fall too. Consider the example of Europe, where secularization has been occurring for well over a century. For a while it seemed that secularization would have no effect on European morality or social institutions. Yet increasingly today there is evidence of the decline of the nuclear family. Overall birthrates have plummeted, while rates of divorce and out-of-wedlock births are up.

Nietzsche also warned that, with the decline of Christianity, new and opposing ideas would arise. We see these today in demands for the radical redefinition of the family, the revival of eugenic theories, and even arguments for infanticide.

In sum, the eradication of Christianity—and of organized religion in general—would also mean the gradual extinction of the principles of human dignity. Consider human equality. Why do we hold to it? The Christian idea of equality in God’s eyes is undeniably largely responsible. The attempt to ground respect for equality on a purely secular basis ignores the vital contribution by Christianity to its spread. It is folly to believe that it could survive without the continuing aid of religious belief.



If we cherish what is distinctive about Western civilization, then—whatever our religious convictions—we should respect rather than denigrate its Christian roots

[heavenlyboy34]

This is important to remember..even if you are not a Christian...tones

Let me conclude with a warning first issued by one of Western civilization’s greatest atheists, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. The ideas that define Western civilization, Nietzsche said, are based on Christianity. Because some of these ideas seem to have taken on a life of their own, we might have the illusion that we can abandon Christianity while retaining them. This illusion, Nietzsche warns us, is just that. Remove Christianity and the ideas fall too. Consider the example of Europe, where secularization has been occurring for well over a century. For a while it seemed that secularization would have no effect on European morality or social institutions. Yet increasingly today there is evidence of the decline of the nuclear family. Overall birthrates have plummeted, while rates of divorce and out-of-wedlock births are up.

Nietzsche also warned that, with the decline of Christianity, new and opposing ideas would arise. We see these today in demands for the radical redefinition of the family, the revival of eugenic theories, and even arguments for infanticide.

In sum, the eradication of Christianity—and of organized religion in general—would also mean the gradual extinction of the principles of human dignity. Consider human equality. Why do we hold to it? The Christian idea of equality in God’s eyes is undeniably largely responsible. The attempt to ground respect for equality on a purely secular basis ignores the vital contribution by Christianity to its spread. It is folly to believe that it could survive without the continuing aid of religious belief.



If we cherish what is distinctive about Western civilization, then—whatever our religious convictions—we should respect rather than denigrate its Christian roots

If you refer to Yeshua's ideas (as opposed to "Christian" ideas-which have little to do with what he taught), then I agree with you. :)

TTYL, Tonesy. ~hugs~

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

D'Souza is a massive neocon. The fact that guys like him vouch for Christianity should tell you a little something about its place in society.

[LibertyEagle]

D'Souza is a massive neocon. The fact that guys like him vouch for Christianity should tell you a little something about its place in society.

:rolleyes:

One could say the same thing about the person who breathes air.

[Acala]

Most knowledgeable people consider Western society to have had its beginning in ancient Greece, long before the birth of Christ. Of course Christianity has had an enormous influence on Western society, but to ignore what went before is to ignore a very important part of history. The Founders certainly didn't ignore it and the reading of the ancient classics was part of every good education until the last fifty years.

[LibertyEagle]

If you refer to Yeshua's ideas (as opposed to "Christian" ideas-which have little to do with what he taught), then I agree with you. :)
Since when have you become an expert on Christian "ideas"? Fact is, you haven't. You're just spouting back something you saw your uh, buddy, TruthWarrior, post.

Run along now and cheer when your "buddy" posts more things from Fabian-Socialists. :rolleyes:

[ARealConservative]

of course it did but under that same logic, Christianity gave us what we have today as well.

[Truth Warrior]

Once, when asked by a reporter, what he thought of western civilization, Gandhi replied, "I think it would be a good idea".

[heavenlyboy34]

Since when have you become an expert on Christian "ideas"? Fact is, you haven't. You're just spouting back something you saw your uh, buddy, TruthWarrior, post.

Run along now and cheer when your "buddy" posts more things from Fabian-Socialists. :rolleyes:

Ad hominems are very unbecoming of you. I read FAR more than this site or what TW says. You have NO CLUE what I know, read, or believe. Your arrogance and rudeness betrays you and causes you to stumble again. :(

[LibertyEagle]

Ad hominems are very unbecoming of you. I read FAR more than this site or what TW says. You have NO CLUE what I know, read, or believe. Your arrogance and rudeness betrays you and causes you to stumble again. :(

Actually, I've watched your ankle-biting enough on here, to say what I said. Are you claiming that you did NOT cheer him on when he has quoted Fabian-Socialists?

[misterx]

This athiest agrees with Nietzsche. I would love to live in a world where religion isn't necessary to keep people civilized, but this isn't that world. Civilization requires a purpose higher than people's animal nature bestows upon them. Philosophy or religon are necessary to provide that purpose. Most people don't have the mental faculties for serious philosophy, so they require religion. Otherwise, you end up with the vain, self-centered, short-sighted, materialistic, decadant society that we have today, that will only continue its downhill slide. Christianity didn't bring us this degenerative society, Christianity's been dead for more than 100 years.

[heavenlyboy34]

Actually, I've watched your ankle-biting enough on here, to say what I said. Are you claiming that you did NOT cheer him on when he has quoted Fabian-Socialists?

I liked the quote, but the fabian socialist thing I don't care for. Who cares who utters a quote if it is good, compelling, and accurate? :confused: As the old colloquialism goes, "even a stopped clock is right twice a day".

[M House]

I've never liked the atheist philosophers. Then again I just got a taste of them in philosophy and alittle in ethics class. To me they made things stupidly complex as well. If you can't appreciate life and your fellow humans open a biology book or an anatomy book. Religion is part of communities and has pretty much been a part of general life around the world for centuries. True, European government has been "secular" for awhile. Our government isn't a Theocracy either people have tended to vote in that direction until recently. I don't believe Christianity is the exclusive western religious force either, it's just a large part good and bad of the last several hundred years.

[heavenlyboy34]

I've never liked the atheist philosophers. Then again I just got a taste of them in philosophy and alittle in ethics class. To me they made things stupidly complex as well. If you can't appreciate life and your fellow humans open a biology book or an anatomy book. Religion is part of communities and has pretty much been a part of general life around the world for centuries. True, European government has been "secular" for awhile. Our government isn't a Theocracy either people have tended to vote in that direction until recently. I don't believe Christianity is the exclusive western religious force either, it's just a large part good and bad of the last several hundred years.

Are you familiar with Tannehill's work? :confused::)

[M House]

What Tannehill?

[LibertyEagle]

I liked the quote, but the fabian socialist thing I don't care for. Who cares who utters a quote if it is good, compelling, and accurate? :confused: As the old colloquialism goes, "even a stopped clock is right twice a day".

It is like fishing. You throw out some bait, catch the fish and then reel them in.

[Truth Warrior]

bait

http://www.hoyetractor.com/ (http://www.hoyetractor.com/)

[LibertyEagle]

You can satisfy your newly-found tractor fettish in your own threads, TW, but not someone else's. Fair warning.

+ Floods of low-value material may be subject to being moved into an alternate sub-forum or deleted. More tolerance will be allowed for established members. Reason: Excessive low value posts dilute users time spent on the forum just reading topic threads.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22

[M House]

LE just create a Tractor thread in the off topic forum. I want to see how many links he's done.

[Truth Warrior]

+ Floods of low-value material may be subject to being moved into an alternate sub-forum or deleted. More tolerance will be allowed for established members. Reason: Excessive low value posts dilute users time spent on the forum just reading topic threads.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22

+ Floods of low-value material may be subject to being moved into an alternate sub-forum or deleted. More tolerance will be allowed for established members. Reason: Excessive low value posts dilute users time spent on the forum just reading topic threads.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22)

[heavenlyboy34]

What Tannehill?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Liberty :D

[M House]

Cool, um philosophy? Well, I'll read it later. I try to use the simplest principles to work through things so I usually don't bother reading that kinda stuff.

[heavenlyboy34]

Cool, um philosophy? Well, I'll read it later. I try to use the simplest principles to work through things so I usually don't bother reading that kinda stuff.

You're going to have difficulty really understanding RP if you don't read any philosophy. :(

[Xenophage]

This is important to remember..even if you are not a Christian...tones

Let me conclude with a warning first issued by one of Western civilization’s greatest atheists, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. The ideas that define Western civilization, Nietzsche said, are based on Christianity. Because some of these ideas seem to have taken on a life of their own, we might have the illusion that we can abandon Christianity while retaining them. This illusion, Nietzsche warns us, is just that. Remove Christianity and the ideas fall too. Consider the example of Europe, where secularization has been occurring for well over a century. For a while it seemed that secularization would have no effect on European morality or social institutions. Yet increasingly today there is evidence of the decline of the nuclear family. Overall birthrates have plummeted, while rates of divorce and out-of-wedlock births are up.

Nietzsche also warned that, with the decline of Christianity, new and opposing ideas would arise. We see these today in demands for the radical redefinition of the family, the revival of eugenic theories, and even arguments for infanticide.

In sum, the eradication of Christianity—and of organized religion in general—would also mean the gradual extinction of the principles of human dignity. Consider human equality. Why do we hold to it? The Christian idea of equality in God’s eyes is undeniably largely responsible. The attempt to ground respect for equality on a purely secular basis ignores the vital contribution by Christianity to its spread. It is folly to believe that it could survive without the continuing aid of religious belief.



If we cherish what is distinctive about Western civilization, then—whatever our religious convictions—we should respect rather than denigrate its Christian roots

Tones, what Western Civilization are you referring to?

Are you referring to government by consent? How many kings did Jerusalem have?

Are you referring to a free market? Jesus despised profit.

Are you referring to natural rights? There is nothing in the bible that refers to these as political concepts - in fact, the bible over and over again insists that we commit abhorrent offenses in the name of God.

Maybe you're referring to inquisitions, crusades, anti-intellectualism, sacrifice, and all the rest that made the Dark Ages dark. Those are the results of Christian civilization, as long as you're not being hypocritical.

All of the good of Western Civilization came from the enlightenment - the abandonment of Christian "morality" and the efforts of smart men to revive the rationality of Greek philosophy.

Jesus did not create Western Civilization. Aristotle did.

[M House]

You're going to have difficulty really understanding RP if you don't read any philosophy. :(

Not really he speaks and writes in pretty simple english.

[Truth Warrior]

......

[Truth Warrior]

Tones, what Western Civilization are you referring to?

Are you referring to government by consent? How many kings did Jerusalem have?

Are you referring to a free market? Jesus despised profit.

Are you referring to natural rights? There is nothing in the bible that refers to these as political concepts - in fact, the bible over and over again insists that we commit abhorrent offenses in the name of God.

Maybe you're referring to inquisitions, crusades, anti-intellectualism, sacrifice, and all the rest that made the Dark Ages dark. Those are the results of Christian civilization, as long as you're not being hypocritical.

All of the good of Western Civilization came from the enlightenment - the abandonment of Christian "morality" and the efforts of smart men to revive the rationality of Greek philosophy.

Jesus did not create Western Civilization. Aristotle did.


The Libertarian From Nazareth? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/butler-b1.html)
Bill Butler thinks he knows His political views.

[heavenlyboy34]

Not really he speaks and writes in pretty simple english.

The underlying principles behind what he says come from philosophy (according to RP himself). This is part of why many don't like him-it's just over their heads. :( You understand him because you happen to be younger and more open minded, it seems. :) (JMHO)

[M House]

I've had a college level philosophy and an ethics class sadly the material never impressed me much. I like to think most humans can come to common ground just using alittle innate reasoning skill. It seems to always always get worse the more you tell them what to do.

[heavenlyboy34]

I've had a college level philosophy and an ethics class sadly the material never impressed me much. I like to think most humans can come to common ground just using alittle innate reasoning skill. It seems to always always get worse the more you tell them what to do.

Then why do you suppose the majority of humans seek an external authority to control themselves and others? (be it a politician or whatever)

[M House]

They're pretty insecure.

[heavenlyboy34]

they're pretty insecure.

exactly. ;)

[Truth Warrior]

exactly. ;) Mortality will do that to you. ;) FWIW, I'd say it's just "FEAR". :p :(

[heavenlyboy34]

Mortality will do that to you. ;) FWIW, I'd say it's just "FEAR". :p :(

That works even better, now that you mention it. What do you think about "timidity"? ;):(

[Truth Warrior]

That works even better, now that you mention it. What do you think about "timidity"? ;):( I think it's just a synonym. ;)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/timidity (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/timidity)

[Theocrat]

After reading many of the responses on this thread, it is all the more evident to me that many of you have been indoctrinated by the public school system, with its emphasis on removing any Christian heritage or foundations from civilization and government. The fact that many of you would even dare to question that Christianity formed Western Civilization is, quite frankly, pathetic.

Resisting the urge to post links and articles to prove what D'Souza has proclaimed (knowing it will not be given any diligent nor cogent study or recollection), I will simply say this: Western Civilization today is being eradicated from the prestige it once held because of the increasing influence of humanistic dogma and overall hatred of Christianity. The evidence of this is all around us, and we see its effects in our schools, governments, media, scientific institutions, and society as a whole.

Our generation and era has become postmodern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern) simply because we refuse to acknowledge God and live by His revealed law. We are currently in a society where many believe there are no absolutes, nature is random, men are basically good (all the while bemoaning the "tragedies" of genocide and corruption in government), and there is no objective purpose to life. This is the immediate result of a humanistic paradigm of the universe in an effort to forge civilization into a utopia where God is either set aside in human affairs or used as an object of hate altogether.

Truly we deserve the civilization we get, and when the former tapestry has been torn to shreds, we should not be surprised when we are blinded by the lint falling into our eyes. The only Enlightenment which influenced Western Civilization is the light of the Gospel being applied to every facet of society, as enflamed by the Protestant Reformation in the 16th and 17th Centuries. Yet, this tapestry is constantly being cut to pieces by the hands of history revisionists, humanistic ("atheistic") rationalists, and global supremacists. If they are allowed to succeed, then Western Civilization will be ever marred at the hands of human autonomy, and it won't be long before humans are led into another Dark Age.

[M House]

Theo Christianity didn't form Western Civilization, unless your gonna get absolute about things and say there wasn't civilization in the west before it. There's been some civilizations around well before though. Protestant Reformation was an important part our history. No puritans and early settlers here without it. Probably the most important would actually be the indigenous church movements here. An individual religious identity is not a bad thing to have developed from Europe at that time in history.

[Theocrat]

Theo Christianity didn't form Western Civilization, unless your gonna get absolute about things and say there wasn't civilization in the west before it. There's been some civilizations around well before though. Protestant Reformation was an important part our history. No puritans and early settlers here without it. Probably the most important would actually be the indigenous church movements here. An individual religious identity is not a bad thing to have developed from Europe at that time in history.

You must understand that the term "Western Civilization" is used implicitly referenced to Eastern Civilization, where that culture was influenced by a different set of philosophies and expectations of the universe. It was full of superstition, scientific instability, moral deficiency, and economic depravity when compared to the ideas and lifestyles of people in the Western part of the world. Those living in Western culture were using a Biblical approach (not perfectly, by any means) to understand people, nature, and a host of other ideals of existence. The results were that there was greater prosperity, liberty, and charity in the West than in the East, and it led to all sorts of advances in science, art, music, architecture, philosophy, etc. which the East was unable to attain at the time. The Church was a major factor in forming Western Civilization, and though they made mistakes, they nonetheless excelled at changing the world for the better and allowing non-Christians to glean off their works and wonders.

[Truth Warrior]

You must understand that the term "Western Civilization" is used implicitly referenced to Eastern Civilization, where that culture was influenced by a different set of philosophies and expectations of the universe. It was full of superstition, scientific instability, moral deficiency, and economic depravity when compared to the ideas and lifestyles of people in the Western part of the world. Those living in Western culture were using a Biblical approach (not perfectly, by any means) to understand people, nature, and a host of other ideals of existence. The results were that there was greater prosperity, liberty, and charity in the West than in the East, and it led to all sorts of advances in science, art, music, architecture, philosophy, etc. which the East was unable to attain at the time. The Church was a major factor in forming Western Civilization, and though they made mistakes, they nonetheless excelled at changing the world for the better and allowing non-Christians to glean off their works and wonders. Not to be confused with nor by the Roman Empire. :D

[Pennsylvania]

Not to be confused with nor by the Roman Empire. :D

nor Celtic Ireland, nor pagan Iceland

[Truth Warrior]

nor Celtic Ireland, nor pagan Iceland Perhaps because we, as a species, are STILL just really barbarians who just happen to be very good at tool making. ;) :)

[Pennsylvania]

Perhaps because we, as a species, are STILL just really barbarians who just happen to be very good at tool making. ;) :)

I hope by barbarians you mean it as the Romans meant it in distinguishing themselves from the Germanic, and Celtic and tribes ;)

There is a negative connotation to that word which I tend to reject. Celtic Ireland, for example, being a highly civilized society, with more art and culture then you can shake two perpendicular, conjoined, and highly symbolic sticks at, if you catch my drift.

[Truth Warrior]

I hope by barbarians you mean it as the Romans meant it in distinguishing themselves from the Germanic, and Celtic and tribes ;)

There is a negative connotation to that word which I tend to reject. Celtic Ireland, for example, being a highly civilized society, with more art and culture then you can shake two perpendicular, conjoined, and highly symbolic sticks at, if you catch my drift.

Oh, Jesus was civilized all right and just look at what happened to him, Gandhi too, BTW. :rolleyes:

[Pennsylvania]

Oh, Jesus was civilized all right and just look at what happened to him, Gandhi too, BTW. :rolleyes:

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me here or not :D

[danberkeley]

Run along now and cheer when your "buddy" posts more things from Fabian-Socialists. :rolleyes:

TW is fabian socialist? :confused:

[heavenlyboy34]

TW is fabian socialist? :confused:

He posted a quote by a fabian socialist, and now various folks are pegging him as one. :rolleyes: You'll have to ask him to be sure. I don't know. :confused:

[Truth Warrior]

TW is fabian socialist? :confused: Nope, not even close. ;) :) If I were, I surely would have voted at least once in the last 37 years, wouldn't ya think?

[danberkeley]

He posted a quote by a fabian socialist, and now various folks are pegging him as one. :rolleyes: You'll have to ask him to be sure. I don't know. :confused:

So if Iquote John Maynard Keynes, does that make me a Keynesian? :D
"In the long run, we are all dead." Woohoo! I am a Keynesian now! YAAAAAY!Y!! :p :D

[paulim]

You must understand that the term "Western Civilization" is used implicitly referenced to Eastern Civilization, where that culture was influenced by a different set of philosophies and expectations of the universe. It was full of superstition, scientific instability, moral deficiency, and economic depravity when compared to the ideas and lifestyles of people in the Western part of the world. Those living in Western culture were using a Biblical approach (not perfectly, by any means) to understand people, nature, and a host of other ideals of existence. The results were that there was greater prosperity, liberty, and charity in the West than in the East, and it led to all sorts of advances in science, art, music, architecture, philosophy, etc. which the East was unable to attain at the time. The Church was a major factor in forming Western Civilization, and though they made mistakes, they nonetheless excelled at changing the world for the better and allowing non-Christians to glean off their works and wonders.

Where do you get this stuff?
After the fall of the Roman Empire, your beautiful Western-Christian-Age started. Dark Ages. No science, no streets, no drinking water... no cities, no farming. A beautiful restart by collecting blueberries. Even the Scholasticism had to be reimported from the superstitious "Eastern Civilization". You should look up the term "Renaissance". It means the rediscovery of the greek tradition.
I don't have the time to write pages, but if anything, Christianity brought the "Will to power" or in other words: Centering the world around human purposes and still believing in how good you are. You believe too, you're the pride of mankind with your believe, or am I wrong?

[Truth Warrior]

He posted a quote by a fabian socialist, and now various folks are pegging him as one. :rolleyes: You'll have to ask him to be sure. I don't know. :confused: Russell was SO much more than that.<IMHO> Of course, LE doesn't CHOOSE to know that. :(

[yoshimaroka]

ummm… the Greeks? Plato, Socrates, etc

[canadian4ronpaul]

the influence of christianity on western civilization is pretty obvious, but this guy is quoting nietzsche as if he was "warning" us about the death of christianity. Nietzsche embraced this change. Nietzsche also believed socrates to be much more of an influence on western civilization than christianity, and he also hated socrates too.

[Truth Warrior]

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me here or not :D

To attempt to clarify:

Our species is "stuck" in barbarism due in very large part to the perpetuation of some of our barbaric human institutions.<IMHO>

Does that help any? ;)

[Pennsylvania]

To attempt to clarify:

Our species is "stuck" in barbarism due in very large part to the perpetuation of some of our barbaric human institutions.<IMHO>

Does that help any? ;)

Yes indeed, I see that we are in agreement here, which is not the first time.

[fedup100]

Actually, I've watched your ankle-biting enough on here, to say what I said. Are you claiming that you did NOT cheer him on when he has quoted Fabian-Socialists?

HeHeHeHe!!HeHe!!!.........the "ankle-biting" :D:D

[fedup100]

You can satisfy your newly-found tractor fettish in your own threads, TW, but not someone else's. Fair warning.

+ Floods of low-value material may be subject to being moved into an alternate sub-forum or deleted. More tolerance will be allowed for established members. Reason: Excessive low value posts dilute users time spent on the forum just reading topic threads.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22

LOL!! Thank you, I needed a good laugh today! :)

[heavenlyboy34]

HeHeHeHe!!HeHe!!!.........the "ankle-biting" :D:D

lol, tell me about it! My ankles got rather sore in this thread.:eek::(

[Truth Warrior]

Yes indeed, I see that we are in agreement here, which is not the first time. :cool: :)

[Zuras]

the influence of christianity on western civilization is pretty obvious, but this guy is quoting nietzsche as if he was "warning" us about the death of christianity. Nietzsche embraced this change. Nietzsche also believed socrates to be much more of an influence on western civilization than christianity, and he also hated socrates too.

Not quite, and on several accounts. Nietzsche believed Socrates was the very reason that Christianity exerted such profound influence on "the west". Further, Nietzsche absolutely despised the enlightenment. Kant was undoubtable the intellectual superiror of Nietzsche, but he failed miserable on Nietzsche's "nice guy" scale. But Nietzsche really hated him after he was pretty much crowned the king of the enlightenment, which many people here completely misunderstand(the enlightenment itself). In fact, a big part of the enlightenment was establishing the rational morality of Christianity. So Kant ceated the "moral prison", the finger nails across the chalkboard of Nietzsche's existence, and even worse for him, Kant completely sanitized it via rational logic. Don't get me wrong: Nietzsche, of course, didn't want to "save" Christianity.

[idiom]

The dark ages occured after the merger of christianity with greek tradition in the era of Constantine.

The enlightenment saw science and the Bible win out over dogmatic adherence to Aristotle and Plato by the powers that were.

Galileo didn't contradict the Bible, he contradicted Aristotle.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[tonesforjonesbones]

D'Souza says:

This idea of the preciousness and equal worth of every human being is largely rooted in Christianity. Christians believe that God places infinite value on every human life. Christian salvation does not attach itself to a person’s family or tribe or city. It is an individual matter. And not only are Christians judged at the end of their lives as individuals, but throughout their lives they relate to God on that basis. This aspect of Christianity had momentous consequences.


Though the American founders were inspired by the examples of Greece and Rome, they also saw limitations in those examples. Alexander Hamilton wrote that it would be “as ridiculous to seek for [political] models in the simple ages of Greece and Rome as it would be to go in quest of them among the Hottentots and Laplanders.” In The Federalist Papers, we read at one point that the classical idea of liberty decreed “to the same citizens the hemlock on one day and statues on the next….” And elsewhere: “Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.” While the ancients had direct democracy that was susceptible to the unjust passions of the mob and supported by large-scale slavery, we today have representative democracy, with full citizenship and the franchise extended in principle to all. Let us try to understand how this great change came about.


In ancient Greece and Rome, individual human life had no particular value in and of itself. The Spartans left weak children to die on the hillside. Infanticide was common, as it is common even today in many parts of the world. Fathers who wanted sons had few qualms about drowning their newborn daughters. Human beings were routinely bludgeoned to death or mauled by wild animals in the Roman gladiatorial arena. Many of the great classical thinkers saw nothing wrong with these practices. Christianity, on the other hand, contributed to their demise by fostering moral outrage at the mistreatment of innocent human life.
Likewise, women had a very low status in ancient Greece and Rome, as they do today in many cultures, notably in the Muslim world. Such views are common in patriarchal cultures. And they were prevalent as well in the Jewish society in which Jesus lived. But Jesus broke the traditional taboos of his time when he scandalously permitted women of low social status to travel with him and be part of his circle of friends and confidantes.

Christianity did not immediately and directly contest patriarchy, but it helped to elevate the status of women in society. The Christian prohibition of adultery, a sin it viewed as equally serious for men and women, and rules concerning divorce that (unlike in Judaism and Islam) treated men and women equally, helped to improve the social status of women. Indeed so dignified was the position of the woman in Christian marriage that women predominated in the early Christian church, and the pagan Romans scorned Christianity as a religion for women.

[M House]

Unless you count the time in Christian history before the state churches(your ex. pagan rome), women have had terrible status under it as well. Middle ages women were more less property. Single women had particularly poor status.

[Truth Warrior]

I like the double standard that exists in this forum.

Yep, pretty pathetic isn't it? :p :mad:

[LibertyEagle]

Russell was SO much more than that.<IMHO> Of course, LE doesn't CHOOSE to know that. :(

Yes, I know, I know. Some people claim Hitler had redeeming qualities too.

:rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

redeeming qualities

http://reveg-catalog.tamu.edu/01-Tractors.htm (http://reveg-catalog.tamu.edu/01-Tractors.htm)

[Xenophage]

The Libertarian From Nazareth? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/butler-b1.html)
Bill Butler thinks he knows His political views.

Its an interesting take, for sure! I'm all for reconciling Christianity, or any other religion, with liberty - but at the outset, I'm coming from an entirely different angle, and I think it is more important to be able to defend freedom from the standpoint of "it works" rather than "(insert sacred figure here) liked it."

Even more important than that, however, is to defend liberty from the standpoint of "its moral." Here is where I see the religious arguments failing miserably, time and again. Any moral argument, from a religious standpoint, ultimately boils down to: God, or the Gods, or these Prophets, must be obeyed. This is not a case for morality - its a case for servitude, and it can't be logically defended. The arguments are also easily turned against you when someone interprets the same religious standards of morality as being in support of a large State.

Therefore I find it imperative to attack the Statists on moral grounds, but to do so from a logically defensible position that relies on nothing but objective truth. Of course, I'm sure you're familiar with the sorts of positions I'm talking about, since you're no stranger to the freedom philosophies :)

At the same time, I recognize that many religious people will need to reconcile political freedom with their religion, and may also be able to influence others of their faith in this manner.

[Truth Warrior]

Its an interesting take, for sure! I'm all for reconciling Christianity, or any other religion, with liberty - but at the outset, I'm coming from an entirely different angle, and I think it is more important to be able to defend freedom from the standpoint of "it works" rather than "(insert sacred figure here) liked it."

Even more important than that, however, is to defend liberty from the standpoint of "its moral." Here is where I see the religious arguments failing miserably, time and again. Any moral argument, from a religious standpoint, ultimately boils down to: God, or the Gods, or these Prophets, must be obeyed. This is not a case for morality - its a case for servitude, and it can't be logically defended. The arguments are also easily turned against you when someone interprets the same religious standards of morality as being in support of a large State.

Therefore I find it imperative to attack the Statists on moral grounds, but to do so from a logically defensible position that relies on nothing but objective truth. Of course, I'm sure you're familiar with the sorts of positions I'm talking about, since you're no stranger to the freedom philosophies :)

At the same time, I recognize that many religious people will need to reconcile political freedom with their religion, and may also be able to influence others of their faith in this manner.

The only problem with pragmatism is ............................ it doesn't work. :p ;)

[LibForestPaul]

This is important to remember..even if you are not a Christian...tones

Let me conclude with a warning first issued by one of Western civilization’s greatest atheists, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. The ideas that define Western civilization, Nietzsche said, are based on Christianity. Because some of these ideas seem to have taken on a life of their own, we might have the illusion that we can abandon Christianity while retaining them. This illusion, Nietzsche warns us, is just that. Remove Christianity and the ideas fall too. Consider the example of Europe, where secularization has been occurring for well over a century. For a while it seemed that secularization would have no effect on European morality or social institutions. Yet increasingly today there is evidence of the decline of the nuclear family. Overall birthrates have plummeted, while rates of divorce and out-of-wedlock births are up.

Nietzsche also warned that, with the decline of Christianity, new and opposing ideas would arise. We see these today in demands for the radical redefinition of the family, the revival of eugenic theories, and even arguments for infanticide.

In sum, the eradication of Christianity—and of organized religion in general—would also mean the gradual extinction of the principles of human dignity. Consider human equality. Why do we hold to it? The Christian idea of equality in God’s eyes is undeniably largely responsible. The attempt to ground respect for equality on a purely secular basis ignores the vital contribution by Christianity to its spread. It is folly to believe that it could survive without the continuing aid of religious belief.



If we cherish what is distinctive about Western civilization, then—whatever our religious convictions—we should respect rather than denigrate its Christian roots


Yes, hooray for the Dark Ages!

[Xenophage]

The only problem with pragmatism is ............................ it doesn't work. :p ;)

I never advocated pragmatism. I advocate realism.

Morality can be, and properly ought to be, logically contrived from fundamental truths and consistent with reality.

[Truth Warrior]

I never advocated pragmatism. I advocate realism.

Morality can be, and properly ought to be, logically contrived from fundamental truths and consistent with reality.

My comment was triggered by this paragraph. ;)


Its an interesting take, for sure! I'm all for reconciling Christianity, or any other religion, with liberty - but at the outset, I'm coming from an entirely different angle, and I think it is more important to be able to defend freedom from the standpoint of "it works" rather than "(insert sacred figure here) liked it."

The buzz phrase of optimism, compromise and pragmatism. :p

Apologies, if I merely misunderstood. :)

[Xenophage]

My comment was triggered by this paragraph. ;)



The buzz phrase of optimism, compromise and pragmatism. :p

Apologies, if I merely misunderstood. :)

I was just trying to present a hierarchy of importance.

At the top I listed "moral arguments."

So if I were to say "Pepsi is better than coke," the weak argument would be "Jesus liked pepsi more than coke." The next, slightly stronger argument, would be "Pepsi tastes better than coke," and finally the ultimate argument would be "You're a god damn douchebag for not liking Pepsi, you Satan worshiping asinine Obama voter."

Or something like that.