What causes conflict between Christian Conservative Republicans and libertarians?

[ghemminger]

Admin note: thread was originally titled: WHy do Christian Conservative Republicans Hate US so MUCH?!?



Always wondered about this. We are for the abolishment of the income tax and constitutional principles. I wonder where such DEEP hate come from???

I was a NeoCon at one time and NEVER hated Libertarians... never really thought of them at all

[nate895]

Christian Conservatives don't "hate" us. I believe they can actually be quite easily convinced if we used the proper rhetoric.

[ARealConservative]

Because legislation of universal morality and the protection of Israel requires a frigging huge government

[heavenlyboy34]

We show them the flaws in their ideas, and they don't like it. ;)

[torchbearer]

They bought the war in Iraq.
As the local ones have told me... its God's war... and we are there for a reason. (supposedly biblical)

[ghemminger]

We show them the flaws in their ideas, and they don't like it. ;)

YEah this could be it... It's like there is a built in HATRED to right wing politic towards democratic "Liberals" and that we are in the "crossfire"?

They HATE "liberals" even more

[Natalie]

I am a Christian Conservative Repubican, and I am here :confused:

[torchbearer]

I am a Christian Conservative Repubican, and I am here :confused:

Maybe you didn't get the memo. You are suppose to be for the government intrusion into our homes, bedrooms, and social behaviors.

[muzzled dogg]

because we dont propose to enforce their god's will on others

[Paulitical Correctness]

Because libertarians crucified Jesus and have harlot wives.

[ARealConservative]

I am a Christian Conservative Repubican, and I am here :confused:

the thread should be "why do so many...." as absolutes are ALWAYS stupid. :D

[lynnf]

one thing is that they fear losing control, another is that they fear that the party will be tipped away from being pro-life.


this is coming from a conservative Christian.

lynn

[torchbearer]

one thing is that they fear losing control, another is that they fear that the party will be tipped away from being pro-life.


this is coming from a conservative Christian.

lynn

life and liberty go hand in hand.

[heavenlyboy34]

Because libertarians crucified Jesus and have harlot wives.

you have libertarians confused with joos and Romans. :rolleyes: Silly goose.

[Paulitical Correctness]

you have libertarians confused with joos and Romans. :rolleyes: Silly goose.

Scholars say that historical documents show Judas leaning toward libertarianism as well.

[torchbearer]

Scholars say that historical documents show Judas leaning toward libertarianism as well.

Judas Priest

[ConvertedRepublican]

Evangelicals, for the most part, believe in a novel theology called 'dispensationalism'. I won't bore you with describing it, suffice to say thier entire world view and philosophy has its foundation on it. It affects how they view the world (they will defend Israel no matter what she does), and the future (they will be 'raptured' out of the world while God tortures humanity for seven years). As you can imagine, this does not leave them optimistic about the future of the world. As a result they care little for it and retreat into thier manmade castles awaiting 'rapture'.
It makes them completely useless in working toward a better world.

[LibertyEagle]

A lot of it has to do with Israel.

Other than that, have you checked out many of the threads on just RPFs are Christian-bashing? There is so much Christian-bashing on here, why WOULD they take the time to listen to much of anything we had to say? You guys who are doing that over and over again, aren't helping this movement one little bit. :(

Remember this?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=102451&highlight=window

This, at least, doesn't seem to have changed much at all. Put another way, we haven't learned much from our mistakes.

[ghemminger]

I t Wierd... CHristianity is a foundation of my life but I find so may CCR's filled with so much hatred they really don't resemble anything "Christian" at all.

This is an unconquerable divide. We need to just try and carve out a third party force... It's the ONLY way

[torchbearer]

A lot of it has to do with Israel.

Other than that, have you checked out many of the threads on just RPFs are Christian-bashing? There is so much Christian-bashing on here, why WOULD they take the time to listen to much of anything we had to say.

Would it have anything to do with what the more vocal "christians" are doing?

http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/bullprayer2.jpg

And their in-depth conversation with god:
Pat Robertson: God says US will accept socialism: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85243

Or the many Jimmy Swagarts of the world?
Or the Reps. who are hard core drug warriors, anti-gay warriors... and just generally intolerant of anyone who doesn't fit their bastardized bread of chrisitianity?

If there is hate... then there is a reason...
Instead of getting mad at the hate.. why don't you start looking at the reasons.

[FrankRep]

The Republicans hate us because we want to reduce government power. Political parties want more power so we threaten them.

Rs and Ds both want more power.

[torchbearer]

The Republicans hate us because we want to reduce government power. Political parties want more power so we threaten them.

Rs and Ds both want more power.

Those without power cannot defend freedom.
Power is not the problem.
This mis-use and unconstitutional use of power that is the problem.

[mediahasyou]

Taxation is Theft. If they believe "Thou shall not steal.", they should be against taxes and with us.

[heavenlyboy34]

Scholars say that historical documents show Judas leaning toward libertarianism as well.

lol :rolleyes:

[LibertyEagle]

Would it have anything to do with what the more vocal "christians" are doing?

http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/bullprayer2.jpg
How many times are you and others going to use this one picture to excuse the way that many on here have bashed Christians and older Americans THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE CAMPAIGN and even now?


And their in-depth conversation with god:
Pat Robertson: God says US will accept socialism: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85243

Or the many Jimmy Swagarts of the world?
Or the Reps. who are hard core drug warriors, anti-gay warriors... and just generally intolerant of anyone who doesn't fit their bastardized bread of chrisitianity?
Yes, those two are so very representative of Christianity. :rolleyes:

Using your logic, I guess that means that Christians should start equating everyone who doesn't believe in Christ, to be akin to Charles Manson.


If there is hate... then there is a reason...
Instead of getting mad at the hate.. why don't you start looking at the reasons.
There ALWAYS was hate. Some now think they have a reason they can attach to their hate, but it still FAILS. It fails for the same reason that those who hate all Muslims and want to see them dead, fails.

If you want to attract people into this movement, or even just get them to listen to us, perhaps we ought to stop insulting the hell out of them. Ya think?


"This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage."

--Dr. Ron Paul

[torchbearer]

How many times are you and others going to use this one picture to excuse the way that many on here have bashed Christians and older Americans THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE CAMPAIGN and even now?


Yes, those two are so very representative of Christianity. :rolleyes:

Using your logic, I guess that means that Christians should start equating everyone who doesn't believe in Christ, to be akin to Charles Manson.


There ALWAYS was hate. Some now think they have a reason they can attach to their hate, but it still FAILS. It fails for the same reason that those who hate all Muslims and want to see them dead, fails.

I just told you why a lot people hate christians.
learn, or make excuses. That is your choice.

[LibertyEagle]

I t Wierd... CHristianity is a foundation of my life but I find so may CCR's filled with so much hatred they really don't resemble anything "Christian" at all.

This is an unconquerable divide. We need to just try and carve out a third party force... It's the ONLY way

Who is "WE"?

Atheist and Agnostics for Liberty? (for us, but not for everyone else. Because we don't really understand the definition of individual liberty, which is why we bash Christians and old people so much in our ignorance). <--- how do you like the tag line? You can use it if you want.

[LibertyEagle]

I just told you why a lot people hate christians.
learn, or make excuses. That is your choice.

I know the excuses, Torch. But, that's what they are "excuses". Face reality, or continue to make excuses. THAT is YOUR choice.

[torchbearer]

I know the excuses, Torch. But, that's what they are "excuses". Face reality, or continue to make excuses. THAT is YOUR choice.

I can't make people stop hating.
I don't hate christians. I have severe disdain for the people who use their good will faith in a divine for profit and power.

[Infamouswoodster]

I suppose this is the part where i shake my head and think to myself "really? i didn't know i hated you guys".

The only thing i hate about the Ron paul movement, is the people who continue to start BS threads like this one.

I support freedom, So does ron paul. My freedom isnt just here locally, its also eternally Through faith in Jesus.
The very principles that promote freedom, Graced the bibles pages long before the US existed.

You are fighting the battle, 80 or so years from now you will gone and your fight for "freedom" will go with you.

Wake and see the fight isnt just against the "government" . Wake up, your are not special enough to be collectively hated by a large group of people.

Get a grip, and stop starting threads bashing a group of people who participate in the SAME movement you are trying to promote.

[LibertyEagle]

I can't make people stop hating.
I don't hate christians. I have severe disdain for the people who use their good will faith in a divine for profit and power.

I know you don't, Torch. But, you have to admit that we, as a group, haven't done much to welcome Christians into this movement. Quite the contrary, we drove them away, in addition to anyone over 40.

[torchbearer]

I suppose this is the part where i shake my head and think to myself "really? i didn't know i hated you guys".

The only thing i hate about the Ron paul movement, is the people who continue to start BS threads like this one.

I support freedom, So does ron paul. My freedom isnt just here locally, its also eternally Through faith in Jesus.
The very principles that promote freedom, Graced the bibles pages long before the US existed.

You are fighting the battle, 80 or so years from now you will gone and your fight for "freedom" will go with you.

Wake and see the fight isnt just against the "government" . Wake up, your are not special enough to be collectively hated by a large group of people.

Get a grip, and stop starting threads bashing a group of people who participate in the SAME movement you are trying to promote.

WHo do you think started the anti-gay threads?
Then following, who do you think started the anti-christian threads?
Who threw the first stone?
I don't know.
But i believe it is the intolerance present in christians that began it for this reason...
the gay communities i know are very tolerant, and even have christians in their group...
the only hate i was seeing was the christians throwing stones at the "sinners".

Then they wonder why people hate them?
Why are people starting to dislike Israel?

[LibertyEagle]

WHo do you think started the anti-gay threads?
Then following, who do you think started the anti-christian threads?
Who threw the first stone?
I don't know.
But i believe it is the intolerance present in christians that began it for this reason...
the gay communities i know are very tolerant, and even have christians in their group...
the only hate i was seeing was the christians throwing stones at the "sinners".

Then they wonder why people hate them?
Why are people starting to dislike Israel?

That's BULLSHIT, Torch. Do you remember all the threads and comments flat out insulting Christians and older Americans, during the campaign? Well, I do. Because as a Moderator, I had to read most of them. They were insulting and they were DISGUSTING.

Face it. WE DROVE PEOPLE OFF FROM THIS MOVEMENT, BECAUSE OF SOME OF YOU ALLS' SPOILED LITTLE BRAT BEHAVIOR. (Not talking about you here, Torch)

It was so bad, it even caused MsDoodahs to write this? Do you remember?


This is going to piss some of you off. I don't care. I ain't your momma, but I'm quite possibly old enough to be your momma and as much as this pains me to say, I'm probably old enough to be a granny to one or two of you. :eek:

I decided to post this after reading LE's poll and RonRules' observations.

Here it is. The straight skinny. Sometimes, the stuff you don't want to hear is exactly what you NEED to hear.

Ready? Here we go.

The blimp and nascar? Those ideas are not doing %^^& to pull in the votes of older people. And we don't have enough young ones to win this thing. We might have been able to grab all of the youth vote but you see, OBAMA is taking a huge portion, too, and since most everyone hates the GOP right now thanks to W, we're down to slim pickins of the youth vote. So we have GOT to start getting the votes of the OLDER AMERICANS or we cannot win. That's mathematical reality, whether you like it or not.

Bashing Christians is just plain ignorant. Think about it. When you're 24, you don't think you're close to death so you ain't worried about meetin' the Old Master. You hit 60, that shit changes right quick. You find yourself reading the obits and you know most of the dead folks. :eek:You'll be taking your tail end to church and having long talks with that God you bashed back when you were only 24. Trust me on this, I do know that of which I speak. Been there, done that. And y'all, Lord willing, will have this same experience.:)

Bashing old people? Even more ignorant than bashing Christians. Old people vote, and they outnumber you younguns, whether y'all like it or not. Y'all bash 'em and then whine that they don't vote for your guy. Is it any effing wonder they don't vote for Ron? Good Lord, I've heard some of y'all go "canvas" without bothering to shower or comb yer damned hair. That scares the shit out of old people. Y'all coming to the door looking like ... criminals. Shameful! And every one of you knows better. Your mommas would be ashamed of such behavior because I'll guarantee, your mommas raised you better than that. Didn't she?

Wave a "REVOLUTION" banner and chase "that nice clean cut boy Hannity" down the sidewalk throwing shit at him.....and you WONDER why older voters are scared to frikken death of this movement? Y'all are scary when you pull stunts like that! Yeah, it was hilarious to us but to the old folks that was FRIGHTENING. Y'all gotta figure this part out or the old people will keep voting for "that clean cut young mormon" or "that veteran" or "that preacher."

Sheesh I know the public schools are bad but I'd like to think a few of you have brains instead of mush between yer ears.

Though I must admit, after watching the crap some of y'all post...I think we have a large portion of mush minds in our very midst.

Y'all can turn this around but what you've done so far is not working. Listen to the older people who are still here and let them tell you what appeals to those in their age bracket.

Go visit your granny and ask her what is her biggest concern. THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS.

Now stop your whining and go think of ways to correct this crap.

Most any thread that was started on here that was pro-Christian, was because they got SICK AND TIRED of all the bashing and all the FLAT OUT LIES about our Founders. Calling them Atheists, Agnostics and someone even called them Satanists. The fact is, ANY pro-God thread that was started on here, even if they begged and pleaded to just have ONE THREAD, even if it was a PRAYER THREAD, was succumbed by a bunch of Christian-bashing children (age or behavior) who couldn't manage to control themselves enough to leave them alone. Do you remember? I do.

Do you remember when that Alabama Peanut Festival was going on and the people there worked so tirelessly to setup a tent for Ron Paul campaigning? Do you remember when one of the primaries came back here so upset because a bunch of Deacons, who after visiting the tent and getting a bunch of literature for their congregations, had sent one of their sons to do some research on Ron Paul and who unluckily ended up HERE and got quite an eyeful of the Christian-bashing, etc? Do you remember the primary telling us that ALL of the literature had been returned? DO YOU REMEMBER?

Have all of them been like this? No, there have been some as completely out of line, as the bashers. But, the sheer number pales in comparison.

Note: I don't know how many of you are truly here for the movement, or you're just here to pass the time. Maybe some are even here because the idea of revolution sounds good to you; many of us well knowing that you would just as soon follow Che Guevara as you would Ron Paul, even though they are exact opposites. Some are here to disrupt and to do everything they humanly can do to stop you from taking back your country. Some will mislead you by quoting socialists, who sound real good in theory, but in reality end up causing the citizenry to be in chains. Others will post divisive bullshit, do do just that ---- divide. Still others will just try to convince you to sit on your ass.

The reality is, that if we truly want to have a chance in hell of turning around our country, on any level, we'd better figure out real soon what binds us together. Instead of egging on what we disagree about, we need to remember what we actually AGREED on, and remember that if we don't stand up for our neighbor's liberty (including the liberty of our fellow RP supporter), then we don't stand a chance in hell of convincing anyone else what liberty is about. Because, the bottom line, if we can't respect our fellow RP supporter's faith, then we ourselves have no damn clue what individual liberty even is.

[torchbearer]

That's BULLSHIT, Torch. Do you remember all the threads and comments flat out insulting Christians and older Americans, during the campaign? Well, I do. Because as a Moderator, I had to read most of them. They were insulting and they were DISGUSTING.

Face it. WE DROVE PEOPLE OFF FROM THIS MOVEMENT, BECAUSE OF SOME OF YOU ALLS' SPOILED LITTLE BRAT BEHAVIOR. (Not talking about you here, Torch)

It was so bad, it even caused MsDoodahs to write this? Do you remember?



Most any thread that was started on here that was pro-Christian, was because they got SICK AND TIRED of all the bashing and all the FLAT OUT LIES that our Founders were Atheists, Agnostics and someone even called them Satanists.

Have all of them been like this? No, there have been some as completely out of line, as the bashers. But, the sheer number pales in comparison.

That's just how I saw it progress on here.
I'm not emotionally attached to this issue.

[Zuras]

Evangelicals, for the most part, believe in a novel theology called 'dispensationalism'. I won't bore you with describing it, suffice to say thier entire world view and philosophy has its foundation on it. It affects how they view the world (they will defend Israel no matter what she does), and the future (they will be 'raptured' out of the world while God tortures humanity for seven years). As you can imagine, this does not leave them optimistic about the future of the world. As a result they care little for it and retreat into thier manmade castles awaiting 'rapture'.
It makes them completely useless in working toward a better world.

First off, most Evangelicals do NOT believe in any of this "protecting Israel at all costs" BS. Those are a minority but they are useful fools for the zionist-owned media, which distors everything they can to further their agenda.

Secondly, I think the reason is that some Conservative Christians have distaste for libertarianism is that these folks are most conservative in regards to social issues. And when it comes to social issues, they see the libertarians as little different than the most left liberals, since even the left liberals will hide their agenda with fork-tongue, while libertarians do not.

[emazur]

"I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians":
http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/im_not_one_of_those_love_thy

My faith in the Lord is about the pure, simple values: raising children right, saying grace at the table, strictly forbidding those who are Methodists or Presbyterians from receiving communion because their beliefs are heresies, and curing homosexuals. That's all. Just the core beliefs. You won't see me going on some frothy-mouthed tirade about being a comfort to the downtrodden.

[LibertyEagle]

Secondly, I think the reason is that some Conservative Christians have distaste for libertarianism is that these folks are most conservative in regards to social issues. And when it comes to social issues, they see the libertarians as little different than the most left liberals, since even the left liberals will hide their agenda with fork-tongue, while libertarians do not.

Well, let me say this. I am a traditional conservative Christian. From within a few days of my start date here, I almost ran out of here screaming. And actually, many times since. What would always stop me was the fact that I actually know what Ron Paul stands for and I know it pretty well. I am a 2nd generation Ron Paul supporter and have been reading his stuff for over 25 years. Many times I'd have to remind myself that Ron Paul would not agree with what I was seeing here. Otherwise, I would have run from here and this movement, as fast as I could have gone.

That is actually a true story.

So, imagine what many feel if they happened/happen upon this place, hoping to find out more about what Ron Paul and this movement is all about. They don't have the history with Ron Paul, so they're likely going to think what is said here is representative of his beliefs. They don't realize that much of it is not. So, there goes another one.

I've even seen soldiers who came here because they LIKED what Ron Paul said, who were driven out of here by a couple who for some reason hated all soldiers. (I couldn't do anything about it then, because I wasn't a Mod yet). Do you think their behavior is representative of Ron Paul's? Ron Paul who is one of the strongest advocates for Veterans that there is? I doubt it. Do you think he would be proud? I doubt that too. Remember this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMDuXVX9OmI

How about the Christian-bashing? Do you think Ron Paul would be proud? Bad as it was during the campaign, it was still better than now.

Someone once said that we should think about what we're saying here and consider whether it is something we would be proud to say in front of Carol Paul. Perhaps we ought to consider that again. Bradley also said something long ago that was very wise. It went something like this.... We are Ron Paul's ambassadors and we should act like it.

[PatriotOne]

I can't make people stop hating.
I don't hate christians. I have severe disdain for the people who use their good will faith in a divine for profit and power.

Speaking of using the divine for profit and power.....

I was channel flipping earlier today and stopped on the religion channel only to hear some televangalist telling people to go make a donation to "plant the seeds of Christendom" or something like that. Anyways, he then goes on to explain that they should use their credit card because he knows that people want their balances paid off and if they use it for Godly purposes the divine will pay it off. I wish I had a recording of it :p.

[LibertyEagle]

That is not Christianity, PatriotOne. It's some asshole who is running a scam.

[lucius]

Speaking of using the divine for profit and power.....

I was channel flipping earlier today and stopped on the religion channel only to hear some televangalist telling people to go make a donation to "plant the seeds of Christendom" or something like that. Anyways, he then goes on to explain that they should use their credit card because he knows that people want their balances paid off and if they use it for Godly purposes the divine will pay it off. I wish I had a recording of it :p.

Through my research, I have noticed that I am somewhat agreeing with a luciferian egregore--that sounds like a capital idea! Jane/joe six-pack deserve everything coming their way...

What a scam...They do this because they can...

[dude58677]

They bought the war in Iraq.
As the local ones have told me... its God's war... and we are there for a reason. (supposedly biblical)

This is it. I have a relative who said that "The Bible says we have to accept good and bad leaders." I got in a debate after I said that violation of the Constitution is an act of perjury because oaths are taken.

[PatriotOne]

I don't mean to christian bash LE. I call it tough love. The dogma of Christianity is a lie and it has retarded the growth of spirituality for thousands of years. God does rule through fear, dictators do.

[Peace&Freedom]

First off, most Evangelicals do NOT believe in any of this "protecting Israel at all costs" BS. Those are a minority but they are useful fools for the zionist-owned media, which distors everything they can to further their agenda.

Secondly, I think the reason is that some Conservative Christians have distaste for libertarianism is that these folks are most conservative in regards to social issues. And when it comes to social issues, they see the libertarians as little different than the most left liberals, since even the left liberals will hide their agenda with fork-tongue, while libertarians do not.

That's why Ron Paul has been the ideal candidate to appeal to CCRs as a libertarian. He is socially conservative, but in a way that is consistent with libertarian and constitutional principles (which is why he could get the LP and CP supporters he received). He can also appeal to Christians whose bible prophecy beliefs have been co-opted by the neo-cons into an unconditional defense of everything Israel does. One way to do this is for us to STOP BASHING the Bible, and decouple the neocon's distortions of it for political purposes.

Evangelicals could be sold on a Paulian version of libertarianism if their affection for Israel could be embraced, then spun in our direction. That is, concede we are in the end time, that the judgment is close, but remind them that God will be judging Israel for its unrighteous conduct towards its neighbors and the Palestinians. Support for Israel the nation can be distinguished from support for the policies of its government, just as you can love America without embracing the Obama administration (this argument should be easier to make to Republicans now with the Democrats back in control).

[PatriotOne]

That is not Christianity, PatriotOne. It's some asshole who is running a scam.

And yet I wonder how many christian followers he has to have to have his own TV show?

[LibertyEagle]

What's your goal, PatriotOne? Do you honestly think that what you are doing is furthering the freedom movement?

C'mon, you're better than this.

[PatriotOne]

Through my research, I have noticed that I am somewhat agreeing with a luciferian egregore--that sounds like a capital idea! Jane/joe six-pack deserve everything coming their way...

What a scam...They do this because they can...

My research into the Luciferianism doctrine is sadly lacking but the more I research Christianity, the more I suspect I am agreeing with Lucifer :p.

[LibertyEagle]

I don't mean to christian bash LE. I call it tough love. The dogma of Christianity is a lie and it has retarded the growth of spirituality for thousands of years. God does rule through fear, dictators do.

That's your OPINION. You have a right to it, but it would also be great if you would respect others' right to have a different one.


My research into the Luciferianism doctrine is sadly lacking but the more I research Christianity, the more I suspect I am agreeing with Lucifer :p.

Maybe this explains the change in your behavior.

[PatriotOne]

What's your goal, PatriotOne? Do you honestly think that what you are doing is furthering the freedom movement?

C'mon, you're better than this.

Christianity is a huge part of the reason we are in this mess LE. But until you are willing to go look at your religion objectively and honestly, you will never understand that.

[PatriotOne]

That's your OPINION. You have a right to it, but it would also be great if you would respect others' right to have a different one.


That would be fine and dandy if Christianity kept to themselves but they don't. They insist on spreading their false doctrine all over the world and having religous wars and committing genocide in the name of their false God.

[LibertyEagle]

Christianity is a huge part of the reason we are in this mess LE. But until you are willing to go look at your religion objectively and honestly, you will never understand that.

They contributed, sure. Just like how YOU are contributing with this divisive BS. Until you are willing to look at that objectively and honestly, you will be nothing but a drain on this movement.

Here's the thing that you don't seem to get, even though you've been told many times. Most of us who are Christian in this movement, DO NOT AGREE with the interpretation that those who are supporting the neocon agenda, seem to have. Yet, you bash us, along with everyone else. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting DAMN sick and tired of it.

There are guidelines about this bullshit. Maybe they should start being applied.

[lucius]

My research into the Luciferianism doctrine is sadly lacking but the more I research Christianity, the more I suspect I am agreeing with Lucifer :p.

more light, more light--worshipful master...

How’s this for property rights?

Their possessions are "like unclaimed land in the desert." Baba Bathra 54b (Babylonian talmud)

Hell yea, god is telling me to tell you to charge this on your credit card and then he will help you pay it off--P.T. Barnum would of been a great televangelist:

"There's a sucker born every minute."

[LibertyEagle]

That would be fine and dandy if Christianity kept to themselves but they don't. They insist on spreading their false doctrine all over the world and having religous wars and committing genocide in the name of their false God.

Christianity didn't start this crap and if you don't know that, you don't know much of anything at all. It was started by a bunch of Atheist assholes, who have a God complex of THEMSELVES. The goal has always been to get rid of Christianity. That way you can give your full allegiance to THEM. I'm not saying that some misled Christians haven't fallen into the trap, because they HAVE. They are helping in their own destruction. I'm none too happy about that either. But, so are many atheists, agnostics and everything in-between.


"This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage."

--Dr. Ron Paul

[micahnelson]

Faith in Christ leads you to love your neighbor as yourself, live at peace with all men to the best of your ability, care for those who cannot care for themselves, and keep yourself pure.

When Christians collectively get involved with politics it is only because they want the world to reflect their beliefs. The only legitimate method a Christian has to enforce morality on another person is, by example and testimony, to change the heart and mind of a non believer.

Ignorant Christians, like any other group, cannot tell the difference between, "I think things should be this way" and "There should be a law that things are this way."

Ignorant Christians vote for vice laws because they think such things are bad. They think people shouldn't hire hookers, get stoned, and watch porn. The real solution is to change the heart, but instead they just enforce it at the barrel of the gun. They love big brother.

Ignorant Mom's vote for Internet regulation because they don't understand the internet, and assume it is full of child molestors who can play a magic tune to kidnap kids. The real solution is to watch your kids, but they run to big brother.

Ignorant Enviornmentalists vote for environmental protection laws because they think that every bird is sacred. Well who knows, maybe they are. Change people's minds, don't call the po po everytime a family wants to build a tree house.

I could go on...

My point is this. Special interest groups stopped trying to change our minds and started trying to change our laws. This leads to division and anger. Usually there is a big chunk of cash behind these movements too. Politicians cater to the whims of these groups because it gets them elected.

When we learn to love our freedom, more than we hate everyone else s freedom, then we will have liberty.

[LibertyEagle]

I agree with that, for the most part.

[PatriotOne]

Christianity didn't start this crap and if you don't know that, you don't know much of anything at all. It was started by a bunch of Atheist assholes, who have a God complex of THEMSELVES. The goal has always been to get rid of Christianity. That way you can give your full allegiance to THEM. I'm not saying that some misled Christians haven't fallen into the trap, because they HAVE. They are helping in their own destruction. I'm none too happy about that either. But, so are many atheists, agnostics and everything in-between.

You could not be more wrong if you think this is a battle between Christianity and Atheism.

[lucius]

Faith in Christ leads you to love your neighbor as yourself, live at peace with all men to the best of your ability, care for those who cannot care for themselves, and keep yourself pure.

When Christians collectively get involved with politics it is only because they want the world to reflect their beliefs. The only legitimate method a Christian has to enforce morality on another person is, by example and testimony, to change the heart and mind of a non believer.

Ignorant Christians, like any other group, cannot tell the difference between, "I think things should be this way" and "There should be a law that things are this way."

Ignorant Christians vote for vice laws because they think such things are bad. They think people shouldn't hire hookers, get stoned, and watch porn. The real solution is to change the heart, but instead they just enforce it at the barrel of the gun. They love big brother.

Ignorant Mom's vote for Internet regulation because they don't understand the internet, and assume it is full of child molestors who can play a magic tune to kidnap kids. The real solution is to watch your kids, but they run to big brother.

Ignorant Enviornmentalists vote for environmental protection laws because they think that every bird is sacred. Well who knows, maybe they are. Change people's minds, don't call the po po everytime a family wants to build a tree house.

I could go on...

My point is this. Special interest groups stopped trying to change our minds and started trying to change our laws. This leads to division and anger. Usually there is a big chunk of cash behind these movements too. Politicians cater to the whims of these groups because it gets them elected.

When we learn to love our freedom, more than we hate everyone else s freedom, then we will have liberty.

Take it a step further...it has been successfully infiltrated since the get-go and twisted for control, perhaps even created for control and went wayward. But even that is far better than this new inculcated dialectic materialistic secular humanism, because with that non-moral compass, under stress, we will eat each other, as intended, instead of turning on the state. So these belief structures contrary to 'policy agenda' have to go...be it true-torah, islam, christianity, buddha etc...leviathan has low mileage from the love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-crowd and mostly equates it all in the media to a form religious insanity, but with this new inculcated dialectic materialistic secular humanism--we will be shoving each other into the camps and liking it...look to china, it's a reality there, ie. it works, religion has been almost eradicated and tv has been put in it's place--pretty much like in amerika. Big difference between spirituality and organized religion:

http://static.flickr.com/2026/2322157257_5abd3d125e.jpg

[ClayTrainor]

They're just angry and cant admit that they bought into a stupid war.

[torchbearer]

Faith in Christ leads you to love your neighbor as yourself, live at peace with all men to the best of your ability, care for those who cannot care for themselves, and keep yourself pure.

When Christians collectively get involved with politics it is only because they want the world to reflect their beliefs. The only legitimate method a Christian has to enforce morality on another person is, by example and testimony, to change the heart and mind of a non believer.

Ignorant Christians, like any other group, cannot tell the difference between, "I think things should be this way" and "There should be a law that things are this way."

Ignorant Christians vote for vice laws because they think such things are bad. They think people shouldn't hire hookers, get stoned, and watch porn. The real solution is to change the heart, but instead they just enforce it at the barrel of the gun. They love big brother.

Ignorant Mom's vote for Internet regulation because they don't understand the internet, and assume it is full of child molestors who can play a magic tune to kidnap kids. The real solution is to watch your kids, but they run to big brother.

Ignorant Enviornmentalists vote for environmental protection laws because they think that every bird is sacred. Well who knows, maybe they are. Change people's minds, don't call the po po everytime a family wants to build a tree house.

I could go on...

My point is this. Special interest groups stopped trying to change our minds and started trying to change our laws. This leads to division and anger. Usually there is a big chunk of cash behind these movements too. Politicians cater to the whims of these groups because it gets them elected.

When we learn to love our freedom, more than we hate everyone else s freedom, then we will have liberty.

I think you nailed it.

[torchbearer]

They're just angry and cant admit that they bought into a stupid war.

Yeah, that's part of it. Said it earlier... and to insult your intelligence, they try to justify it with the bible.

[amy31416]

Faith in Christ leads you to love your neighbor as yourself, live at peace with all men to the best of your ability, care for those who cannot care for themselves, and keep yourself pure.

When Christians collectively get involved with politics it is only because they want the world to reflect their beliefs. The only legitimate method a Christian has to enforce morality on another person is, by example and testimony, to change the heart and mind of a non believer.

Ignorant Christians, like any other group, cannot tell the difference between, "I think things should be this way" and "There should be a law that things are this way."

Ignorant Christians vote for vice laws because they think such things are bad. They think people shouldn't hire hookers, get stoned, and watch porn. The real solution is to change the heart, but instead they just enforce it at the barrel of the gun. They love big brother.

Ignorant Mom's vote for Internet regulation because they don't understand the internet, and assume it is full of child molestors who can play a magic tune to kidnap kids. The real solution is to watch your kids, but they run to big brother.

Ignorant Enviornmentalists vote for environmental protection laws because they think that every bird is sacred. Well who knows, maybe they are. Change people's minds, don't call the po po everytime a family wants to build a tree house.

I could go on...

My point is this. Special interest groups stopped trying to change our minds and started trying to change our laws. This leads to division and anger. Usually there is a big chunk of cash behind these movements too. Politicians cater to the whims of these groups because it gets them elected.

When we learn to love our freedom, more than we hate everyone else s freedom, then we will have liberty.

*Applauds*

[Brassmouth]

Always wondered about this. We are for the abolishment of the income tax and constitutional principles. I wonder where such DEEP hate come from???

I was a NeoCon at one time and NEVER hated Libertarians... never really thought of them at all

Because religion is collectivist by nature. Libertarians are individualist by definition. It's a contradiction.

[torchbearer]

Because religion is collectivist by nature. Libertarians are individualist by definition. It's a contradiction.

religion could be individualistic if it didn't have monolithic governing bodies who turn the path of searching into a side show with freaks for their empowerment.
Imagine, everyone on their own independent journeys of search for truths... meeting only to exchange ideas....

[Infamouswoodster]

So, now that we've established you can be christian, atheist, libertarian, republican, old, young, republicrat , black, green or purple ....AND you can Not rightly say all of one Particular group hates freedom. Then we can call BS on this thread and its motive.

Sounds like a hate troller.

Becuase you watch a T.V preacher, you can judge a faith...?

Well i hope People dont look at this one thread and think Every Ron paul follower is this divisive, this ignorant and self centered.

There's a big world out there... The ron paul movement welcomes you, but please, sit in the back and keep quiet during class.

Hating/categorizing a group of highly devoted and powerful individuals WHILE bashing their faith.....

You know? why didn't i think of that? That's what ron paul should have done, Im sure Thats what he would be proud of. What all his hard work has produced.
Faith or not, That's just rude.

Really, thanks for exercising your 1rst amendment rights, but there are other forums that would welcome your non-informative, skewered anti-liberty movement opinion.

[Stary Hickory]

Christians in the Republican party can be persuaded. The way to approach them is this way:

Tell them that you cannot legislate morality through the government, that it is the job of the church and the community to reach out to those in need. Let them know you think their goals are noble, but ultimately it hurts their cause if they are trying to force their values on others.

They will be able to sympathize if you remind them that by backing liberty they will keep government out of their lives and that they would have free choice of schools, and their tax dollars would not go to immoral programs.

This approach works. The thing is, they are good people, who do want to do the right thing, so if you are not putting down their values they will see the light.

[torchbearer]

So, now that we've established you can be christian, atheist, libertarian, republican, old, young, republicrat , black, green or purple ....AND you can Not rightly say all of one Particular group hates freedom. Then we can call BS on this thread and its motive.

Sounds like a hate troller.

Becuase you watch a T.V preacher, you can judge a faith...?

Well i hope People dont look at this one thread and think Every Ron paul follower is this divisive, this ignorant and self centered.

There's a big world out there... The ron paul movement welcomes you, but please, sit in the back and keep quiet during class.

Hating/categorizing a group of highly devoted and powerful individuals WHILE bashing their faith.....

You know? why didn't i think of that? That's what ron paul should have done, Im sure Thats what he would be proud of. What all his hard work has produced.
Faith or not, That's just rude.

Really, thanks for exercising your 1rst amendment rights, but there are other forums that would welcome your non-informative, skewered anti-liberty movement opinion.

I think its important to have open communication about differences. All families have disputes.
The world is not all rainbows... unless you are on that end of bourbon street.

[torchbearer]

Christians in the Republican party can be persuaded. The way to approach them is this way:

Tell them that you cannot legislate morality through the government, that it is the job of the church and the community to reach out to those in need. Let them know you think their goals are noble, but ultimately it hurts their cause if they are trying to force their values on others.

They will be able to sympathize if you remind them that by backing liberty they will keep government out of their lives and that they would have free choice of schools, and their tax dollars would not go to immoral programs.

This approach works. The thing is, they are good people, who do want to do the right thing, so if you are not putting down their values they will see the light.

Or what has more value... someone who does good because he is forced to, or someone who is given true free will and decides to behave in a righteous manner.

[satchelmcqueen]

didnt read all the replies, but from my own experience, one must seperate the implied "christian" message/support from so called candidate that decides to use "christian language" or "christian words" to get their stance across....truth or lie.


my mom and dad voted for McCain even though i always spoke of ron pauls message. they took McCain because during his debat with Obama, he stated that he was saved and believed in God, where as obama didnt really say so one way or the other.... Until that moment, they were unsure. thats all it took.


sad


Paul believes in god, but didnt push the fact because it has not much bearing or should have much bearing on the fight for our country. plus paul doesnt play the whole" christian" suck up game.

[M House]

Christianity didn't start this crap and if you don't know that, you don't know much of anything at all. It was started by a bunch of Atheist assholes, who have a God complex of THEMSELVES. The goal has always been to get rid of Christianity. That way you can give your full allegiance to THEM. I'm not saying that some misled Christians haven't fallen into the trap, because they HAVE. They are helping in their own destruction. I'm none too happy about that either. But, so are many atheists, agnostics and everything in-between.

Woah..... atheist assholes with a God complex, wtf? Should've joined earlier. Let it all out LE. Whatever, this thread was asking for more BS with a title like this though. Would've been interesting to see the gay vs. "Christians" battle. Anyway, Christianity isn't gonna disappear common it's seriously a ridiculously prominent majority. Even Mexicans are Christian for the most part. Hey, atleast we aren't Canada didn't they kick the protestants out sometime ago in their history.

[ARealConservative]

Because religion is collectivist by nature. Libertarians are individualist by definition. It's a contradiction.

this is an ironic response.

"us" is a collectivist word. I suspect The vast majority that supported Ron Paul would not pass a libertarian purity test either.

[LibertyEagle]

Woah..... atheist assholes with a God complex, wtf?

If you don't know what I'm talking about, you have a LOT of learning to do.

[ARealConservative]

If you don't know what I'm talking about, you have a LOT of learning to do.

same back at you LE.

The vast majority in this country believes in Jesus Christ in some way, shape, or form and as such, the majority of the blame can not be led at the feet of the atheists.....even the militant asshole variety.

[Dieseler]

..

[M House]

Hey, I wasn't around in the old days of God complex atheists. I prefer to jump in to threads if I have to hear crap about what my beliefs are same as you. But whatever I can see the christians driving the gays away from the movement, and then the Christians getting driven away by the backlash like Torch said. If it was more complex than that, I don't know.

[LibertyEagle]

same back at you LE.

The vast majority in this country believes in Jesus Christ in some way, shape, or form and as such, the majority of the blame can not be led at the feet of the atheists.....even the militant asshole variety.

Well, that's interesting and all, but I was speaking about the people behind the curtain who have been working for scores of years to bring in world government. It was not a general statement about atheists.

[M House]

Those people to me don't have a set belief, anyway. They'll use whatever force they can religion or not. If your churches want to join them....great. If they don't.....sucks for them.

[LibertyEagle]

Those people to me don't have a set belief, anyway. They'll use whatever force they can religion or not. If your churches want to join them....great. If they don't.....sucks for them.

Well, just because they "don't to you", doesn't mean that they don't.

[ARealConservative]

Well, that's interesting and all, but I was speaking about the people behind the curtain who have been working for scores of years to bring in world government. It was not a general statement about atheists.

the people behind the curtain?

They are powerless without the will of the majority, and that is wear the blame truly lies.

[BlackTerrel]

I haven't read this whole thread but it would help if y'all weren't so anti-Christian. It's really effing tiresome. In a country where more than 80% are some form of Christian you'd think those with anti-Christian views would keep their mouths shut in order to help their cause.

[LibertyEagle]

the people behind the curtain?

They are powerless without the will of the majority, and that is wear the blame truly lies.

Well, the MAJORITY voted for Obama and it certainly wasn't Christians who put him in office.

[LibertyEagle]

I haven't read this whole thread but it would help if y'all weren't so anti-Christian. It's really effing tiresome. In a country where more than 80% are some form of Christian you'd think those with anti-Christian views would keep their mouths shut in order to help their cause.

True, but they're not wise enough to figure that out, apparently.

[M House]

Well, the MAJORITY voted for Obama and it certainly wasn't Christians who put him in office.

Huh? Plenty of Christians voted for Obama. Yeah....

[LibertyEagle]

Huh? Plenty of Christians voted for Obama. Yeah....

Nah, it was you little heathens that put him in office. :p

[ARealConservative]

Well, the MAJORITY voted for Obama and it certainly wasn't Christians who put him in office.

How can you be so sure of that?

[M House]

Well, I did actually vote for Chuck :p

[Kalifornia]

because we arent afraid of Emmanuel Goldstein... um.. I mean Osama Bin Laden.

[torchbearer]

True, but they're not wise enough to figure that out, apparently.

Yes. if you are in a minority. Please shut up.

[devil21]

This is the one thing that I envy about the Democrats. No stupid bickering over religious stuff on that side.

I think it's a mutual amount of hate. The GOP has been flat out hijacked by the bible thumpers. They used to be just one of many groups that made up the party. Now they are the party. The GOP is no longer the big tent party and this is exactly why. The evangelicals, as a whole, shun any one that doesn't wear their religion on the sleeve and doesnt support the religious agenda as the platform of the GOP. They simply don't want "non-believers" in "their party". Ive seen the comments across the net way too many times to have any other opinion. Of course there are exceptions to this rule and many of those exceptions are members here. Unfortunately, you are the minority. And as a non-religious person, so am I.

[hypnagogue]

I know you don't, Torch. But, you have to admit that we, as a group, haven't done much to welcome Christians into this movement. Quite the contrary, we drove them away, in addition to anyone over 40. I think you're confusing "this movement" with "this website."

[Wendi]

Always wondered about this. We are for the abolishment of the income tax and constitutional principles. I wonder where such DEEP hate come from???

I was a NeoCon at one time and NEVER hated Libertarians... never really thought of them at all

If you figure it out, let me know, okay? Because I am a Christian, I have always considered myself fairly conservative, and in the past I've tended to vote Republican. But they hate me, too :confused:

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Peace&Freedom]

Many christians I know and have spoken with fundamentally believe government should regulate morality. They might not admit it openly but the truth is soon reveals itself over the course of a conversation. If any christians want to challenge my assertion by all means start a thread and we will have a conversation.

It seems to be ok for christians to practice a religion everyone does not believe in free of government interference but it is often not ok when other people do something christians consider immoral.

What Christians believe is that God is the sustainer and ruler of the nations, and as such God should be properly honored and acknowledged by government. The notion that government can be neutral about religion is just that, a notion, not a presumption all must accept at the start of the conversation. There are also legitmate differences about whether 'personal behavior' is in fact victimless, given God may be victimized by the action.

Having laws against some 'personal' behaviors that run contrary to God's revealed law and holy character is, in this light, not imposing or regulating morality, but protecting God's property interests from those who would misuse His Creation against His will. From that perspective such laws are libertarian in nature, as they defend the Author of Liberty, while a lack of such laws are authoritarian by defacto imposing libertinism on a largely Christian country.

Failing to reach agreement as to the proper basis for libertarian law given the above, we should a least agree on the ability to hold a different cognitive foundation for forging it. Local communities that come to a 'San Francisco' or left-libertarian perspective should not impose their constructs on a 'Bible belt' right-libertarian area, and vice versa. Paul has always stressed a local/federalist approach as the best and most mutually tolerant way to resolve the matter, as opposed to a one size fits all approach at the federal level.

[heavenlyboy34]

What Christians believe is that God is the sustainer and ruler of the nations, and as such God should be properly honored and acknowledged by government. The notion that government can be neutral about religion is just that, a notion, not a presumption all must accept at the start of the conversation. There are also legitmate differences about whether 'personal behavior' is in fact victimless, given God may be victimized by the action.

Having laws against some 'personal' behaviors that run contrary to God's revealed law and holy character is, in this light, not imposing or regulating morality, but protecting God's property interests from those who would misuse His Creation against His will. From that perspective such laws are libertarian in nature, as they defend the Author of Liberty, while a lack of such laws are authoritarian by defacto imposing libertinism on a largely Christian country.

Failing to reach agreement as to the proper basis for libertarian law given the above, we should a least agree the ability to hold a different cognitive foundation for forging it. Local communities that come to a 'San Francisco' or left-libertarian perspective should not impose their constructs on a 'Bible belt' ritht-libertarian area, and vice versa. Paul has always stressed a local/federalist approach as the best and most mutually tolerant way to resolve the matter, as opposed to a one size fits all approach at the federal level.

QFT!! But, from my reading of the Federalist literature, the Federalists would resolve this with a top-down approach. Could you make a citation backing your assertion, please? Thanks. :)

[Peace&Freedom]

I think that the relevant citation would be "Congress shall make no law" in the bill of rights, a stricture against the federal government exceeding its powers. This was meant to keep the states and the people in charge of their rights, and with it the freedom to resolve issues at their level. The latter were considered MORE powerful than the federal entity, so its top-down in that sense.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[heavenlyboy34]

I think that the relevant citation would be "Congress shall make no law" in the bill of rights, a stricture against the federal government exceeding its powers. This was meant to keep the states and the people in charge of their rights, and with it the freedom to resolve issues at their level. The latter were considered MORE powerful than the federal entity, so its top-down in that sense.

The BoR was a result of a compromise with the ANTI-Federalists, though (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights#The_Anti-Federalists). ;) Your connection to Federalism is still not clear.

[BlackTerrel]

Many christians I know and have spoken with fundamentally believe government should regulate morality. They might not admit it openly but the truth is soon reveals itself over the course of a conversation. If any christians want to challenge my assertion by all means start a thread and we will have a conversation.

"Many Christians you know".... 80% of Americans are Christian. There's a pretty diverse set of opinions there. You going to lump us all in one big bucket?


It seems to be ok for christians to practice a religion everyone does not believe in free of government interference but it is often not ok when other people do something christians consider immoral.

I've never known a Christian to object to someone else practicing their religion, at least not the ones I know. Most of the preach love and understanding. Even those who (for instance) think homosexuality is a sin don't think it should be outlawed, though marriage is another issue.

[Dindoleki]

[deleted]

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Xenophage]

Conservative Christians hate us because of people like Jerry Falwell. Its that simple.

Conservative Christians used to be more on our side, about 50 years ago.

[LibForestPaul]

because we dont propose to enforce their god's will on others

Ditto

[american.swan]

Before Ron Paul woke me up, I voted for democrats. (hangs head in shame)

I think it's easier to convert a Dem to our cause then a GOP member.

[american.swan]

because we dont propose to enforce their god's will on others

Actually it's laziness. See the Christians don't really believe what they claim to believe therefore they don't live the life they claim to want to live, so they fail and much use government to "convert" the lost.

[heavenlyboy34]

Before Ron Paul woke me up, I voted for democrats. (hangs head in shame)

I think it's easier to convert a Dem to our cause then a GOP member.

+1 I found it easier to convince dems and libs than republicans when I was talking to people during the campaign.

[LibertyEagle]

Actually it's laziness. See the Christians don't really believe what they claim to believe therefore they don't live the life they claim to want to live, so they fail and much use government to "convert" the lost.

Don't group everyone together, swan. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian, does not mean that they are, you know. Nor, does it mean they are following Christ's teachings.

[JVParkour]

Well, I am 19, so I may not be the general "Christian Conservative" but I do have a good perspective since i've been to church my whole life and want to double major in Religious Studies and Economics.

In my experience, the easiest way to explain the freedom and liberty mindset to an evangelical is like this. God gave and continues to give humans freedom of choice. ie sin, lust, foul language, sin in general. He didn't force us to live the right way, which makes our choice to live that way all the more special. We (Ron Paul Republicans) want every person to be allowed to do and say as they please. You be able to follow your religion and what it says, and a gay person to do what they feel is right for them. Since you have free speech you can talk to them, and tell them that you think they are wrong, but the ultimate decision is up to them. This is what God did for us.

Then they usually say that if we let everyone do what they want then abortion will be allowed. At this point you bust em with something along the lines of 'This freedom is allowed as long as no one else's rights are infringed upon. And in the case of abortion, the right of the baby is infringed upon, its right to life.

Sorry for the long post, but I have found this works pretty well...

[american.swan]

Don't group everyone together, swan. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian, does not mean that they are, you know. Nor, does it mean they are following Christ's teachings.

I wrote what I did fully knowing and agreeing with what you are saying here. I personally don't want to be called "a Christian" because I am not like Christ.

[american.swan]

Well, I am 19, so I may not be the general "Christian Conservative" but I do have a good perspective since i've been to church my whole life and want to double major in Religious Studies and Economics.

In my experience, the easiest way to explain the freedom and liberty mindset to an evangelical is like this. God gave and continues to give humans freedom of choice. ie sin, lust, foul language, sin in general. He didn't force us to live the right way, which makes our choice to live that way all the more special. We (Ron Paul Republicans) want every person to be allowed to do and say as they please. You be able to follow your religion and what it says, and a gay person to do what they feel is right for them. Since you have free speech you can talk to them, and tell them that you think they are wrong, but the ultimate decision is up to them. This is what God did for us.

Then they usually say that if we let everyone do what they want then abortion will be allowed. At this point you bust em with something along the lines of 'This freedom is allowed as long as no one else's rights are infringed upon. And in the case of abortion, the right of the baby is infringed upon, its right to life.

Sorry for the long post, but I have found this works pretty well...

Good advice.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

Anti-Fed's signature has the answer to this: "Reform cannot be achieved by a well-intentioned leader who recruits his followers from the very people whose moral confusion is the cause of the disorder." - Socrates

Christians, by definition, are authority worshippers. Now, obviously to varying degrees; ranging from being utterly deranged by legal positivism and patriotism to those who see God as a higher authority than human law. But ultimately, they all find themselves unquestioningly bowing to some form of authority at some point.

And when you're taught to believe in moral absolutes, black & white dichotomies, divinity, sin, etc., the desire to invade the private lives of others isn't anything but natural.

The libertarian philosophy involves accepting that, "what's good for me doesn't necessarily apply to those around me." If Christians were to go along with this, that would mean admitting that their divine, universal truth is in fact not universal at all. That's the kind of cognitive paradox that would fry a robot's circuitry.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Eric21ND]

Because we are the intellectual wing, they are just busy-bodies bible thumpers

[torchbearer]

Because we are the intellectual wing, they are just busy-bodies bible thumpers

Every time a bible is thumped, Jesus sheds a tear. ;)

[LibertyEagle]

Anti-Fed's signature has the answer to this: "Reform cannot be achieved by a well-intentioned leader who recruits his followers from the very people whose moral confusion is the cause of the disorder." - Socrates


Christians, by definition, are authority worshippers.
Speak for yourself, bud.


Now, obviously to varying degrees; ranging from being utterly deranged by legal positivism and patriotism to those who see God as a higher authority than human law.
Interesting perspective, but wrong. Collectivism much dude?


But ultimately, they all find themselves unquestioningly bowing to some form of authority at some point.
Oh, you do too, whether you realize it or not.


And when you're taught to believe in moral absolutes, black & white dichotomies, divinity, sin, etc., the desire to invade the private lives of others isn't anything but natural.
So, in your mind, everything is a big sea of gray?


The libertarian philosophy involves accepting that, "what's good for me doesn't necessarily apply to those around me."
True, however, that only goes up to the point where you start infringing on someone else's liberty. I also thought that libertarians subscribed to the axiom of non-aggression? If so, don't you think sticking forceps in the base of a baby's skull and stirring it around in their brains, just might be a bit aggressive? Then, suctioning or pulling them out, limb by torn apart limb.


If Christians were to go along with this, that would mean admitting that their divine, universal truth is in fact not universal at all. That's the kind of cognitive paradox that would fry a robot's circuitry.
If some libertarians would walk their talk, they wouldn't be advocating murdering defenseless fetuses.

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

I've always been staunchly anti-abortion, LE

[devil21]

I literally got searched out on YouTube by a bible thumper so he could post an offensive comment to my profile, which is full of RP Favorites, noting my support of Gazans "who create IEDs that kill women and children" (lol) and talking about "My lord Satan" because of my handle. I was tempted to respond with some choice biblical passages that evangelicals tend to forget (The Golden Rule, for example) but I realize there's no getting through to people like that.

[LibertyEagle]

Yes. if you are in a minority. Please shut up.
What minority are you talking about? Rude people who refuse to stop insulting another fellow RP supporters' faith? If that is what you want the freedom to do, then NO, you don't have the right to do that here.

[torchbearer]

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0304/images/antietam.jpg

[micahnelson]

Who do "Label" "Label" "Label" hate "Label" so Much?

This thread needs to die.

[RonPaulMania]

Well I don't know why they "hate" you guys so bad. Maybe it has to do with the fact so many of you are so anti-God, use horrible logic to make points, and mock people with blasphemies and obscenities and the like.

Really it escapes me. Why can't we be decent and proper in our manners to everyone? Want to recruit Christians? Many of them, like many of you, base their arguments on emotions (while you fail to realize it) so if you could emotionally connect with them that you aren't rude, obnoxious and mock religion you might open a dialogue. Christians are actually easy to convert to the cause, but they cannot see your point while using "F" words, blaspheming and the like. Also the sophmoric arguments against religion here aren't even good, even the great Grimnir Wotansvolk can't understand his own arguments, let alone how to structure one.

Those are some tips. I should know, I'm part of a group of people that are Christians for liberty and most of the time you would be shocked where the movement really is and they need to feel like they belong because who wants to be part of a group that mocks others.

[Truth Warrior]

Maybe it's only because some of us don't buy into their lame and pathetic bullshit. ;)

[Bryan]

Always wondered about this. We are for the abolishment of the income tax and constitutional principles. I wonder where such DEEP hate come from???


My $0.02. The title of this thread (WHy do Christian Conservative Republicans Hate US so MUCH?!?) is group think times two-- ie: why does one group hate another group? It attempts to lump a bunch of people with some characteristic into a group that is bound to some trait-- in this case, hate, against other people that happen to have some characteristic. I would consider this thread title as anti-intellectual and divisive and thus should likely not have a place here- so I will rename it.




Maybe it's only because some of us don't buy into their lame and pathetic bullshit. ;)
Could you clarify what you mean here?

[Truth Warrior]

Could you clarify what you mean here?

A clarification: How many Christian Conservative Republicans voted for McCain and NOT for Ron? The Republicans tend to view us as ANARCHISTS, since Ron and we want much LESS government, NOT more.<IMHO> ;)

Thanks! :)

[TonySutton]

The new title does not really fit the OP very well.

I would suggest "What causes conflict between Christian Conservative Republicans and Libertarians"

[LibertyEagle]

The new title does not really fit the OP very well.

I would suggest "What causes conflict between Christian Conservative Republicans and Libertarians"

Well, that title implies that all of us here are Libertarians, and that is not the case.

[Josh_LA]

Well, that title implies that all of us here are Libertarians, and that is not the case.

I agree, not all of us are libertarians.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I agree, not all of us are libertarians.

Especially those who claim to love Liberty but want to empower the State to run our lives from Craddle to Grave (like people that advocate the death penalty for sexual orientation). :rolleyes:

[asimplegirl]

I will go ahead and address the question in the new title.

The biggest issue I have found is the gay marraige and abortion should be illegal (even though I am saying I want smaller government) argument. It causes the biggest issue with me and some Christian conservatives.

I am personally 100% against abortion, and I am not homosexual, lol...so....

I just don't see why the law should have anything to do with morals. Since when is the government an authority in this area (morals)?

[BlackTerrel]

I will go ahead and address the question in the new title.

The biggest issue I have found is the gay marraige and abortion should be illegal (even though I am saying I want smaller government) argument. It causes the biggest issue with me and some Christian conservatives.

I am personally 100% against abortion, and I am not homosexual, lol...so....

I just don't see why the law should have anything to do with morals. Since when is the government an authority in this area (morals)?

Isn't the government allowing gay marriage and allowing abortions also making the government an authority on morals? It simply makes the government an authority on morals in a different direction.

Personally, if you want to help Ron Paul you should try to be nice to Christians not treat them like idiots. Isn't Ron Paul himself a Christian?

[Truth Warrior]

Well there are Christians and then there are "Christians" ( so called ). Many more of the latter than the former. :(


"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I just don't see why the law should have anything to do with morals. Since when is the government an authority in this area (morals)?

Actually, Abortion is not a morals issue. Its a murder issue, which is unethical as well as being against both of the founding documents of this country: The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution. An embryonic human is still a member of the genus **** and species Sapiens Sapiens and therefore granted The Right to Life which is entirely pre-political. An entirely different kettle of fish than morals, technically.

The State should not be involved in the issue of Marriage at all. Its a religious issue and therefore violates the Separation of Church and State. There are churches that will perform Gay Marriages and therefore its a non-issue when you get right down to it. The involvement of the State is what has caused this problem.

[worl]

I think you have the title wrong. Most of the christians, or the few that have stayed, are constantly insulted by libertairians. Most of us that are religious don't agree with each other on doctrine or interpretation, but we don't insult each other. I and many other's have said all along that for this movement to work, we need to apeal to all types of people including christian but it hasn't worked out & most of the religious people have gone. I've learned a lot here & will continue to support Paul, but I won't support the war on religion or work with with anyone with that atitude.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Most of us that are religious don't agree with each other on doctrine or interpretation, but we don't insult each other.

I beg to differ. I've been on this website a relatively short time and its been repeatedly inferred by certain members who claim to be Christian that I am an Atheist. I've asked them, repeatedly, not to do so as I'm a Deist and NOT an Atheist. There has also been ill treatment of other non-Christians by these same people who use left-handed attacks as a way of preventing outright ad hominems. Its not nice when you're told you're a corrupt and immoral because you don't accept the Divinity of Yeshua bin Yosef.

[Truth Warrior]

I think you have the title wrong. Most of the christians, or the few that have stayed, are constantly insulted by libertairians. Most of us that are religious don't agree with each other on doctrine or interpretation, but we don't insult each other. I and many other's have said all along that for this movement to work, we need to apeal to all types of people including christian but it hasn't worked out & most of the religious people have gone. I've learned a lot here & will continue to support Paul, but I won't support the war on religion or work with with anyone with that atitude.

Do you see and acknowledge ANY conflicts or make ANY distinctions between those who are Christians and those who are "Christians" ( in name only )?

Most of the criticisms have been aimed at that latter group.<IMHO> The Libertarian From Nazareth? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/butler-b1.html)






"By their fruits, ye shall know them"

[worl]

Do you see and acknowledge ANY conflicts or make ANY distinctions between those who are Christians and those who are "Christians" ( in name only )?

Most of the criticisms have been aimed at that latter group.<IMHO>





"By their fruits, ye shall know them"

I think everyone here knows that a lot of people claim to be christian & may not be. To be elected to office here, you first join a church. As for those that don't believe exactly as I do, I will respect their belief & not insult them. As for the latter group, I voted for bush, I believed in the war on drugs, I watched fox news. I was one of the people I now oppose. I first read Ron Paul's writing but if I had came here first, I would have rejected it all.

[Truth Warrior]

I think everyone here knows that a lot of people claim to be christian & may not be. To be elected to office here, you first join a church. As for those that don't believe exactly as I do, I will respect their belief & not insult them. As for the latter group, I voted for bush, I believed in the war on drugs, I watched fox news. I was one of the people I now oppose. I first read Ron Paul's writing but if I had came here first, I would have rejected it all.

I'll take that answer to my question as a "Yes". :)

Thanks!

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command?" -- Jesus ( Luke 6:46 )

[worl]

I beg to differ. I've been on this website a relatively short time and its been repeatedly inferred by certain members who claim to be Christian that I am an Atheist. I've asked them, repeatedly, not to do so as I'm a Deist and NOT an Atheist. There has also been ill treatment of other non-Christians by these same people who use left-handed attacks as a way of preventing outright ad hominems. Its not nice when you're told you're a corrupt and immoral because you don't accept the Divinity of Yeshua bin Yosef.

It's not up to me or anyone else to judge you or insult you because of your belief or non belief & I don't hate people. I do take offense when someone says there is no GOD as if they knew it to be fact. It may be their belief, but that does't make it true. We all should have a common goal that Ron Paul started & if we discuss our religious or non-religious belief, we should not be insulting each other to the point of making people leave.

[heavenlyboy34]

It's not up to me or anyone else to judge you or insult you because of your belief or non belief & I don't hate people. I do take offense when someone says there is no GOD as if they knew it to be fact. It may be their belief, but that does't make it true. We all should have a common goal that Ron Paul started & if we discuss our religious or non-religious belief, we should not be insulting each other to the point of making people leave.

If I may ask, what do you think of J.S. Mill's critique of religion in his book "On Liberty"? :confused: (This is a text that can be discussed civilly, IMHO)

[Truth Warrior]

If I may ask, what do you think of J.S. Mill's critique of religion in his book "On Liberty"? :confused: (This is a text that can be discussed civilly, IMHO)

Since you've mentioned Mill, FYI, you may just want to check out the critique of Utilitarianism, in War Is Evil (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/warford2.html) ;)

:)

[AutoDas]

If abortion is murder then shouldn't you put the women who get abortions on death row or at least give them a lifetime sentence?

[torchbearer]

If abortion is murder then shouldn't you put the women who get abortions on death row or at least give them a lifetime sentence?

Every sperm is sacred, death to any man who jerks off.

[Truth Warrior]

If abortion is murder then shouldn't you put the women who get abortions on death row or at least give them a lifetime sentence? Roe v. Wade gave them a pass, and further GREW the Federal government. 40 some MILLIONS, since then, and counting. :( :mad:

[worl]

If I may ask, what do you think of J.S. Mill's critique of religion in his book "On Liberty"? :confused: (This is a text that can be discussed civilly, IMHO)

Never read the book, but looked it over on google. I would susspect he did'nt agree with Legislating morality by gov. or by the majority on the minority. It's a fact that our law & constitution contain some moral law's, some I don't agree with some I do believe are necessary for a civil sociaty. I don't agree with abortion since it involves killing a child & the fed. should't be involved at all. This is a state issue. Many of the reasons christians dis-agree with libertairians is the war on religion as Ron Paul has writen about. For instance taking God off our currency, taking God out of our schools. This is using the courts to legislate for a minority against a majority. They see our country slowly becoming european so the churches start fighting back by voting for more religion & most don't even realize they & you are being used by gov. to take away our freedom. This is what has separated this movement.

[BlackTerrel]

I think you have the title wrong. Most of the christians, or the few that have stayed, are constantly insulted by libertairians. Most of us that are religious don't agree with each other on doctrine or interpretation, but we don't insult each other. I and many other's have said all along that for this movement to work, we need to apeal to all types of people including christian but it hasn't worked out & most of the religious people have gone. I've learned a lot here & will continue to support Paul, but I won't support the war on religion or work with with anyone with that atitude.

Which is exactly why they're stupid! How could you possible hope to grasp any sort of power when you shun and insult 80% of the population. It's almost as if these people don't want to succeed. It's far easier to take pot shots from the side and criticise, but they're almost afraid to win.

Stop insulting Christians! RP is himself a Christian which makes this so ironic and frustrating.

[Truth Warrior]

Which is exactly why they're stupid! How could you possible hope to grasp any sort of power when you shun and insult 80% of the population. It's almost as if these people don't want to succeed. It's far easier to take pot shots from the side and criticise, but they're almost afraid to win.

Stop insulting Christians! RP is himself a Christian which makes this so ironic and frustrating.

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command?" -- Jesus ( Luke 6:46 )

[heavenlyboy34]

Which is exactly why they're stupid! How could you possible hope to grasp any sort of power when you shun and insult 80% of the population. It's almost as if these people don't want to succeed. It's far easier to take pot shots from the side and criticise, but they're almost afraid to win.

Stop insulting Christians! RP is himself a Christian which makes this so ironic and frustrating.

It starts with esoteric debates about some subject like "pornography" or war, and eventually someone starts throwing around ad hominem attacks, which begets more attacks ad infinitum. :( This even happened to Ron Paul, who is much more polite than I am. :p If libertarians are going to have dialogue with Christians, there should be a neutral moderator present to ensure that the debate stays issue-oriented. (if the nonsense on RPF is any indicator)

[asimplegirl]

Isn't the government allowing gay marriage and allowing abortions also making the government an authority on morals? It simply makes the government an authority on morals in a different direction.

Personally, if you want to help Ron Paul you should try to be nice to Christians not treat them like idiots. Isn't Ron Paul himself a Christian?

I am a Christian, and do not think Christians to be idiots. I only answered the question from my personal experiences.

I don't believe in TAKING anyone's right to believe differently than I do. It is not my business. Government and church should be and are separate.

BTW, Ron Paul is a Christian, but he doesn't turn to the bible for all answers to the government, or I would not support him, as I do not agree with small-minded people, no matter if they believe the same or different than I do. The government *allowing* something is not being an authority, it's *allowing* YOU to the authority of YOUR life by making decisions others may not agree with.

[Truth Warrior]

Personally, I think hypocrisy may just go a very long way towards explaining some/most of the conflicts.<IMHO> ;)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy)

[BlackTerrel]

It starts with esoteric debates about some subject like "pornography" or war, and eventually someone starts throwing around ad hominem attacks, which begets more attacks ad infinitum. :( This even happened to Ron Paul, who is much more polite than I am. :p If libertarians are going to have dialogue with Christians, there should be a neutral moderator present to ensure that the debate stays issue-oriented. (if the nonsense on RPF is any indicator)

In what universe will there be a dialog? What do you envision some sort of debate?

There is no one who speaks for all libertarians and certainly no one who speaks for all Christians. The thing to remember, as someone who wants to help Ron Paul is the Christians don't need you, you need them. There's a lot of them, and not that many of you.

The solution is rather simple really. Stop treating Christians like idiots. Stop insulting them and their beliefs.

[devil21]

The solution is rather simple really. Stop treating Christians like idiots. Stop insulting them and their beliefs.

I understand that you are new and likely didn't experience the things RP supporters experienced during the campaign so Ill put it bluntly.

That's a two way street. If you had read and heard the things said about Ron Paul and his supporters from the mouths of evangelicals during the primary campaign, you would understand the enmity that many of us have for them. I read them even today on many internet sites. Christians do not want "non-believers" in "their party". And if you don't revolve everything in your life around a two thousand year old book then you are a "non-believer". This is why RP was shunned. He does not wish to govern based on that book.

[LibertyEagle]

I understand that you are new and likely didn't experience the things RP supporters experienced during the campaign so Ill put it bluntly.

That's a two way street. If you had read and heard the things said about Ron Paul and his supporters from the mouths of evangelicals during the primary campaign, you would understand the enmity that many of us have for them. I read them even today on many internet sites. Christians do not want "non-believers" in "their party". And if you don't revolve everything in your life around a two thousand year old book then you are a "non-believer". This is why RP was shunned. He does not wish to govern based on that book.

Well, I've been around and I agree with BlackTerrel on this. Looks like he nailed it to me.

Remember this?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=102451&highlight=window

[Truth Warrior]

Perhaps when the "Christians" ( in name only ) start acting more like Christians most of the conflicts will simply disappear. Just a thought. :)


"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

[LibertyEagle]

Perhaps when those proclaiming "individual liberty" start acting like they actually believe in it for anyone besides just themselves, most of the conflicts will simply disappear. :)

[Truth Warrior]

"Freedom, Peace and Prosperity" -- Ron Paul

[Truth Warrior]

Perhaps when those proclaiming "individual liberty" start acting like they actually believe in it for anyone besides just themselves, most of the conflicts will simply disappear. :) LRC often calls those folks STATISTS.

[constituent]

Because libertarians crucified Jesus and have harlot wives.

gay harlot wives, actually.

[Truth Warrior]

gay harlot wives, actually. ;) :D The Libertarian From Nazareth? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/butler-b1.html)

[LibertyEagle]

LRC often calls those folks STATISTS.

Some, yes, however there also appear to be a number of others who claim to be anti-state and pro-liberty, but refuse to respect others individual liberty. These people are called HYPOCRITES.

[Truth Warrior]

Some, yes, however there also appear to be a number of others who claim to be anti-state and pro-liberty, but refuse to respect others individual liberty. These people are called HYPOCRITES.

And many of them ( MILLIONS ) are also called Christian Conservative Republicans too.

Only the respectable are worthy of respect.<IMHO>

The Triumph of Imperial Christianity (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance155.html)
Laurence Vance on the conservatives' war religion.

[LibertyEagle]

Agreed that there are hypocrites all the way around. But, constantly taking jabs at anyone who is Christian or Republican and therefore alienating them and driving them away, does not seem like a prudent way to gain converts.

[Truth Warrior]

driving them away

http://www.ytmag.com/ (http://www.ytmag.com/)

[asimplegirl]

Some, yes, however there also appear to be a number of others who claim to be anti-state and pro-liberty, but refuse to respect others individual liberty. These people are called HYPOCRITES.

Have you ever visited TeamSarah?

I was a member there for a while, as I felt she was interesting... well, their numbers have dropped by over 20,000... know why? They banned almost everyone that believed in individual rights. I know. I became friends with a few people from there, and they created a new site, that allows all of those banned members to come in..they do MUCH more than the original site did, and are much more open minded. BTW, I have been talking to these people about this movement, and they don't think it's that bad. (maybe I can gain us some converts)

So, anyway, the point of this was to tell you that this happens in every movement, within every political party, even with the christian conservatives.

[heavenlyboy34]

Have you ever visited TeamSarah?

I was a member there for a while, as I felt she was interesting... well, their numbers have dropped by over 20,000... know why? They banned almost everyone that believed in individual rights. I know. I became friends with a few people from there, and they created a new site, that allows all of those banned members to come in..they do MUCH more than the original site did, and are much more open minded. BTW, I have been talking to these people about this movement, and they don't think it's that bad. (maybe I can gain us some converts)

So, anyway, the point of this was to tell you that this happens in every movement, within every political party, even with the christian conservatives.

No wonder you don't pay enough attention to me! You're off playing with republicans! :rolleyes::p

[asimplegirl]

No wonder you don't pay enough attention to me! You're off playing with republicans! :rolleyes::p

nah, i came here when I left there. :)

[LibertyEagle]

Have you ever visited TeamSarah?

I was a member there for a while, as I felt she was interesting... well, their numbers have dropped by over 20,000... know why? They banned almost everyone that believed in individual rights. I know. I became friends with a few people from there, and they created a new site, that allows all of those banned members to come in..they do MUCH more than the original site did, and are much more open minded. BTW, I have been talking to these people about this movement, and they don't think it's that bad. (maybe I can gain us some converts)

So, anyway, the point of this was to tell you that this happens in every movement, within every political party, even with the christian conservatives.

You supported Sarah Palin? :eek:

How about John McCain?

[M House]

*cringes* well we all make mistakes....

[mediahasyou]

ghemminger is living in his own reality.

[asimplegirl]

You supported Sarah Palin? :eek:

How about John McCain?

I hated John McCain, but figured he would die soon, and even though she was not awesome, I liked her better than Obama (It came down to, both of them were going to be wrong, which one's wrong would effect my life the most...ended up Obama's gun stance is what would do it, as I have no reason to have my phone tapped, and if I did, they would not find anything, except that I hate my inlaws and talk about recipes alot, and I don't plan on aborting any babies soon, and I am not homosexual, etc..like I said, came down to guns.)... Ron wasn't going to be elected, and I wasn't going to "waste" my vote..It hurt terribly, both hubby and I both were really upset that whole day, as it was going to suck no matter the outcome.. :(

BTW, I never made any calls for her, had a sign, talked about her...none of that, but did join her site to find out a little more about her.

[M House]

Should've voted Ron. I voted 3rd party and get to grin at my parents when they complain at dinner about things.

[M House]

Anyway no matter what TW says voting for someone you don't like is a pretty big waste.

[asimplegirl]

*cringes* well we all make mistakes....

I wonder now...how many people felt exactly like I did...if we would have all voted Ron anyway, forgetting our doubts, would he have won? hmm..

Then again, I am registered republican, and was EXTREMELY republican until earlier this year, when hubby sat down and had a talk about politics with me. ( I voted Bush and Jindal)...I think that I became republican to spite my parents when I was younger, as they are both REALLY liberal (SIL talked dad into voting Mc).

(BTW, my brother's wife is still EXTREMELY republican, and pretty much worships O'Reilly- THATS scary. My brother isn't even registered...feels like it is useless, as no one he likes will ever win. )


Should've voted Ron. I voted 3rd party and get to grin at my parents when they complain at dinner about things

Well, now that I know how things turned out, and 60% of my state voted Mc, yeah, I should have.


Anyway not matter what TW says voting for someone you don't like is a pretty big waste.

Well, like I said, I felt like Sarah was ALRIGHT, and felt Mc would die soon enough. LOL. Still don't see how he even got the nomination.

[devil21]

Well, I've been around and I agree with BlackTerrel on this. Looks like he nailed it to me.

Remember this?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=102451&highlight=window

Like I said, it's a two way street. Both sides need to cut each other slack and work together, though I honestly doubt it will ever happen since there are large idealogical gaps. I will admit that many RP supporters, like myself, are critical thinkers and generally find religion to be illogical. Stating such can come off harshly. This is the one topic where I envy Democrats. No bickering and backbiting over religion.

[M House]

I wonder now...how many people felt exactly like I did...if we would have all voted Ron anyway, forgetting our doubts, would he have won? hmm..

Then again, I am registered republican, and was EXTREMELY republican until earlier this year, when hubby sat down and had a talk about politics with me. ( I voted Bush and Jindal)...I think that I became republican to spite my parents when I was younger, as they are both REALLY liberal (SIL talked dad into voting Mc).

(BTW, my brother's wife is still EXTREMELY republican, and pretty much worships O'Reilly- THATS scary. My brother isn't even registered...feels like it is useless, as no one he likes will ever win. )



Well, now that I know how things turned out, and 60% of my state voted Mc, yeah, I should have.



Well, like I said, I felt like Sarah was ALRIGHT, and felt Mc would die soon enough. LOL. Still don't see how he even got the nomination.

Yeah it's just a psych out. If you vote for someone you want, what have you lost? It wasn't your fault they didn't win.

[asimplegirl]

Yeah it's just a psych out. If you vote for someone you want, what have you lost? It wasn't your fault they didn't win.

But, doe sthat make it any easier?

You know it is going to come down to two people... and both of them are dumb, but one of them will change YOUR life, for the worst more than the other.

Do you vote for the person you wish would win, but know doesn't have a chance in hell, as they are not in the two main spots, do you vote for the one that will impact your life the most in a negative way, or do you vote for the one who will not really change your life at all?

To me, the only choice seemed to be the one that really wouldn't change my life much, for the better or the worst... I don't regret THAT. It just felt crappy to be in that position in the first place.

I will say this, though, the more I am around republicans that support that type, the less I like them, and it is embarrassing above all else to be associated with those folks... I have not been republican myself for awhile, thanks to hubby, but am still registered as such...this will change soon.

[M House]

Um what's Obama doing right that McCain wouldn't do? Just pick your best option and vote. Doesn't matter if it's rigged, un-winnable, etc. Um, why wouldn't I vote for someone I wanted to win? Seems like people just make it too fucking hard sometimes.

[asimplegirl]

Yeah, we do make it too hard, and I over think things...but that's okay.

I made a choice, and even though now I feel I probably should have just went with my gut, I don't regret it.

[M House]

It would only make a difference if more people would've stopped thinking like you did. So yeah you didn't really lose anything either.

[asimplegirl]

Well, I have learned that I need to stand up for what I believe is right whether anyone is going to stand with me or not, so I know next time it will be different- for me atlleast.

You guys have shown me that, though.. hubby kept telling me, but I never knew other people believed the way I did. I had never even heard of libertarian until this year..

Thanks ya'll!

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

See thats why I voted for Ron in the election. I can live with my conscience that I didn't have to pick the 'lesser of two evils'. To me, thats like asking 'Which deadly venomous creature do you want to play with? A black mamba or a funnel web?' Both will kill your ass deader then a doornail in less time than it takes to make coffee. Neither have redeeming traits and should be locked into a glass box, never to be opened.

[LibertyEagle]

Like I said, it's a two way street. Both sides need to cut each other slack and work together, though I honestly doubt it will ever happen since there are large idealogical gaps. I will admit that many RP supporters, like myself, are critical thinkers and generally find religion to be illogical. Stating such can come off harshly. This is the one topic where I envy Democrats. No bickering and backbiting over religion.

I find it just so odd that you made this statement, since Ron himself is a devout Christian. Does this mean you don't think he is a critical thinker?

[Josh_LA]

I find it just so odd that you made this statement, since Ron himself is a devout Christian. Does this mean you don't think he is a critical thinker?

In some respects yes, that's what a principled person is, a person who does not think in situations and circumstances and unconditionally sticks to rules, like a robot who is predictable.

However, Dr. Paul is not a "devout" Christian in the sense he puts God, his faith, or his church above and before people, reason and reality. But if he were, I'd have no problem as long as he's honest about it.

[asimplegirl]

[B]
However, Dr. Paul is not a "devout" Christian in the sense he puts God, his faith, or his church above and before people, reason and reality.

Exactly x 10... This is exactly why I do like Ron. Many politicians have the same beliefs as I do, but they want to make those rules for everyone else to live by...I do not like small minded people, no matter if they have the same beliefs as me or not. Dr. Paul seems to be a very open minded person.

[Josh_LA]

Exactly x 10... This is exactly why I do like Ron. Many politicians have the same beliefs as I do, but they want to make those rules for everyone else to live by...I do not like small minded people, no matter if they have the same beliefs as me or not. Dr. Paul seems to be a very open minded person.

I don't blame people for trying to impose their beliefs on others, that's what you SHOULD do if you actually believe it. (and you deserve the same in return :cool:)

[Truth Warrior]

Anyway no matter what TW says voting for someone you don't like is a pretty big waste. As is voting for someone that you do like. :D

[LibertyEagle]

Exactly x 10... This is exactly why I do like Ron. Many politicians have the same beliefs as I do, but they want to make those rules for everyone else to live by...I do not like small minded people, no matter if they have the same beliefs as me or not. Dr. Paul seems to be a very open minded person.

Which politicians have the same beliefs as you do?

[asimplegirl]

How is that relevant to this conversation?

But, since you want to go there, I think homosexuality is wrong, I think abortion is wrong, I believe in the death penalty, I think that violent sexual crimes are the worst ever committed, especially against children, and would love to kill the offenders or cut off their balls. I believe in traditional family values, and set ups, I don't agree with drug use, I think it is retarded to not own a gun and carry it,I find it offensive when people curse in front of me, I don't want to see your ass, your boobs, don't want to sniff your cigarettes, etc...

Technically, personally I am EXTREMELY conservative. Pick a politician...my governor is a good fit.

BUT, I would never like or support anyone who would want to make that LAW. I will always stand up for someone else's right to do things that I wouldn't.

Good enough for you?

[LibertyEagle]

You're the one who mentioned it. I thought you might name some names.

[asimplegirl]

I told you, my governor is a perfect example of someone who believes as I do...but I don't agree with making those beliefs law for an entire country.

Bob Barr is another.

[LibertyEagle]

I told you, my governor is a perfect example of someone who believes as I do...but I don't agree with making those beliefs law for an entire country.

So, you believe that it's alright to legislate these things for a state, but just not for the entire country?


But, since you want to go there, I think homosexuality is wrong, I think abortion is wrong, I believe in the death penalty, I think that violent sexual crimes are the worst ever committed, especially against children, and would love to kill the offenders or cut off their balls. I believe in traditional family values, and set ups, I don't agree with drug use, I think it is retarded to not own a gun and carry it,I find it offensive when people curse in front of me, I don't want to see your ass, your boobs, don't want to sniff your cigarettes, etc...


Bob Barr is another.

Interesting.

[asimplegirl]

Well, I think that states should be run the way the people there tend to believe, and my state is very red, save a couple areas, but they are so small they are insignificant.

I think the federal government should be very small.

What, would you not guess that I think that personally? Most people are surprised to know that I dislike both sides on a national level that only know me personally, and those that only know me like an acquaintance are surprised to know what I think personally. I tend to keep the two separately. I know my way is not the only way, and am open to allowing others to live as such.

(Also, outsiders are surprised to learn that my hubby was a very strict corrections officer(nicknamed "the poh-leece")and loved the job)