Agnostics/Atheists and the Constitution

[cska80]

I'm just curious as to how my fellow Agnostics or Atheists deal with embracing a concept of government which was created with the foundation of religion and a creator. This was the one question that took me the longest time to explore and figure out through my self education on a lot of things, especially our founding fathers.

[Zolah]

Could scarcely care less.

[MRoCkEd]

Well I don't believe the Constitution was divinely inspired; i just think it was a good idea.

[Kludge]

Don't care about how a decision is made, but what impact the decisions have.

As for the Founders, the majority of them (though some of the exceptions are nearly superhuman in their promotion of individualism and living as an example) were racist Federalist scum, IMO.

[mczerone]

The Founders, at least the Drafters of the Constitution, if not those who debated it, understood that the power that gives authority to a government is from the people that are governed, not from any divine power, pedigree, or force of arms. While there are remnants of language that recognize a god, there is more that recognizes that a people that don't agree with the religious notions of a government will not lend that government any support. This is why the founders said that the government shall not establish a religion: it reduces the jurisdiction of the government to those who follow that religion, and gives incentive to the human leaders of a government to force all "their people" to follow the exact same religious teachings - otherwise the State loses all of its power whenever the whim of the people goes from protestantism to evangelism, or whatever other minute evolutions the society develops.

The recent boom and bust in the GOP of basing their identity on a specific brand of evangelism is a very good illustration of what happens whenever a conglomeration of people try to imbue one values-system (religion) onto the entire group of followers: At first many people are willing to fall in line to reap some rewards, but eventually the number leaving the group swells in contrast to the number joining and the leaders are left grasping for power and alienating those who would have joined had the religiousness not been a facet of the party in the first place.

The only place that power is found is in people (even the power that comes from money must come from other people) - and the mass of people is much too fickle from year to year to try to use their religion as the basis of controlling them. Oops, I mean representing them.

[M House]

I don't know since the Constitution doesn't reference a religious group at all and the Declaration talks about the creator not Jesus, it wasn't ever a huge deal to me.

[tribute_13]

I honestly think that Atheists concerned about other people's religions are complete assholes. I'm an atheist and proud but I don't tell other people that every aspect of life and every belief that they're entire life is centered around is wrong. I mean thats just disrespectful. Be the better person. There will be a time when more and more people wake up and shake off the imaginary friend. Don't be so damn militant.

[lynnf]

I'm just curious as to how my fellow Agnostics or Atheists deal with embracing a concept of government which was created with the foundation of religion and a creator. This was the one question that took me the longest time to explore and figure out through my self education on a lot of things, especially our founding fathers.


Atheists/Agnostics fared a lot better under this than they did under the atheistic communistic governments -- Atheists/Agnostics still went to Siberia, were shot by Stalin's henchmen, went to the killing fields of Cambodia, suffered the economic hardships of austere governments, were purged by Mao. think about that.

lynn

[MGreen]

It was not founded on religion and a creator. The government was drawn up and run by people of faith, but where is that not the case?

[Dequeant]

...................

[Knightskye]

I'm just curious as to how my fellow Agnostics or Atheists deal with embracing a concept of government which was created with the foundation of religion and a creator. This was the one question that took me the longest time to explore and figure out through my self education on a lot of things, especially our founding fathers.

Restricting the government so it doesn't become too authoritative -- doesn't take a religious person to think that's a good idea. They were oppressed under a king and revolted. The foundation wasn't religion; it was liberty.

[lynnf]

I think you would find a lot of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, etc......very sympathetic to atheism. Most were Deists. Thomas Jefferson has his own version of the bible. He literally cut out all the divinely inspired passaged, references to miracles..........into what amounts to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. You can buy a copy on Amazon.


the assertion that the Founding Fathers were Deists is a fallacy. and even if they had been, the Deism of that day is not the same as the Deism of today.

the fallacy is promoted by people with another agenda, namely to undermine the foundation of this country.

lynn

[Kludge]

the fallacy is promoted by people with another agenda, namely to undermine the foundation of this country.

Oh... I didn't really know why BeFranklin started an ongoing 1,000,000,000 word essay on why the Founders didn't like Deism.

How does believing in Deism undermine the foundation of this country???

More undermining would be the numerous written praises of God for clearing the Indians out of the United States with plagues for the early settlers, I believe.

[LibertyEagle]

the assertion that the founding fathers were deists is a fallacy. And even if they had been, the deism of that day is not the same as the deism of today.

The fallacy is promoted by people with another agenda, namely to undermine the foundation of this country.

Lynn

+1776

[muzzled dogg]

how do all the non-slave owners feel about the constitution?

[Knightskye]

how do all the non-slave owners feel about the constitution?

Really?

[M House]

how do all the non-slave owners feel about the constitution?

Indifferent?

[Knightskye]

Bump.

[BeFranklin]

I think you would find a lot of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, etc......very sympathetic to atheism. Most were Deists. Thomas Jefferson has his own version of the bible. He literally cut out all the divinely inspired passaged, references to miracles..........into what amounts to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. You can buy a copy on Amazon.

Thomas Paine became famous for common sense, which is (drumroll) quoting extensively from the bible for its proof. He was widely
despised by most of the other founding fathers for what he did in later years. Also, his name is on none of the founding documents,
and he can't rightly be called a founding father, although he could be described as a popular figure.

Thomas Jefferson's harmony of the teachings of Jesus Christ from the four gospels is being taking out of context, and it also didn't remove
all the miracles of Jesus Christ. ie Jefferson attended church all his life, was a vestryman, introduced church worship in the capital, designed
the architecture of his home church, and specifically critized atheism, saying he never could be one. In fact, most of the founders critizied
atheism or deism, saying religion was necessary for morality, and hence the health of the nation.

In example, Thomas Jefferson wrote these four bills at the same time in 1776:
Thomas Jefferson and Bills Number 82-86 of the Laws of Virginia, 1776-1786

A Bill for Religious Freedom
A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers
A Bill for Appointing Days of Public Fasting and Thanksgiving
A Bill Annulling Marriages Prohibited by the Levitical Law, and Appointing the Mode of Solemnizing Lawful Marriage


One is punishing sabbath breakers, and the bill on marriage actually included part of the levitical law from the bible
on marriage. This doesn't seem to be atheistic.

This has been discussed in depth in these threads:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173113&page=14

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173124

Also, I believe founders should be anyone from the Revolution era, not the framers of the constitution, and that is
the era we should look at for trying to see what the people believed when the country was founded.

[Athan]

I'm just curious as to how my fellow Agnostics or Atheists deal with embracing a concept of government which was created with the foundation of religion and a creator. This was the one question that took me the longest time to explore and figure out through my self education on a lot of things, especially our founding fathers.

Their religion doesn't concern me. Their love for liberty and justice does.

[RevolutionSD]

Well I don't believe the Constitution was divinely inspired; i just think it was a good idea.

It WAS a good idea but has completely failed. It is now just a goddamn piece of paper.

[lynnf]

It WAS a good idea but has completely failed. It is now just a goddamn piece of paper.


only a GD piece of paper if you believe GD GW Bush! and you know how much he lies.


lynn

[Dequeant]

Thomas Paine became famous for common sense, which is (drumroll) quoting extensively from the bible for its proof. He was widely
despised by most of the other founding fathers for what he did in later years. Also, his name is on none of the founding documents,
and he can't rightly be called a founding father, although he could be described as a popular figure.

Thomas Jefferson's harmony of the teachings of Jesus Christ from the four gospels is being taking out of context, and it also didn't remove
all the miracles of Jesus Christ. ie Jefferson attended church all his life, was a vestryman, introduced church worship in the capital, designed
the architecture of his home church, and specifically critized atheism, saying he never could be one. In fact, most of the founders critizied
atheism or deism, saying religion was necessary for morality, and hence the health of the nation.

In example, Thomas Jefferson wrote these four bills at the same time in 1776:
Thomas Jefferson and Bills Number 82-86 of the Laws of Virginia, 1776-1786

A Bill for Religious Freedom
A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers
A Bill for Appointing Days of Public Fasting and Thanksgiving
A Bill Annulling Marriages Prohibited by the Levitical Law, and Appointing the Mode of Solemnizing Lawful Marriage


One is punishing sabbath breakers, and the bill on marriage actually included part of the levitical law from the bible
on marriage. This doesn't seem to be atheistic.

This has been discussed in depth in these threads:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173113&page=14

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173124

Also, I believe founders should be anyone from the Revolution era, not the framers of the constitution, and that is
the era we should look at for trying to see what the people believed when the country was founded.

Thomas Paine's writings inspired the men in the militias to fight, and on no small scale. Percentage wise, i'm pretty sure he has outsold any author in North America to this day. Giving him any credit short of a founding father really does not do him justice. I mean, if we're limiting ourselves to who signed the Declaration of Independence, then George Washington is also not a founder. Or if only to those who signed the Constitution, then Thomas Jefferson is not a founder. I realize there is no scientific definition of who is or who is not, but I think Thomas Paine fits the bill just fine.

As for religious beliefs of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, both made it quite clear what their beliefs were. You can put on the tin foil hat and say the media has conspired against them, but their writings are proof enough to any who would read them. Also, quoting bills by Jefferson of all people that outlaw restriction religious practice is like quoting.......Bush and saying he was a Neocon. What else would you expect? I did not say Jefferson was an Atheist, but he WAS a Deist. People can argue until they are blue in the face, but that won't make it untrue.

[Knightskye]

In example, Thomas Jefferson wrote these four bills at the same time in 1776:
Thomas Jefferson and Bills Number 82-86 of the Laws of Virginia, 1776-1786

A Bill for Religious Freedom
A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers
A Bill for Appointing Days of Public Fasting and Thanksgiving
A Bill Annulling Marriages Prohibited by the Levitical Law, and Appointing the Mode of Solemnizing Lawful Marriage


One is punishing sabbath breakers, and the bill on marriage actually included part of the levitical law from the bible
on marriage. This doesn't seem to be atheistic.

Funny, Jefferson didn't try to repeal the 10th Amendment. :rolleyes:

Also, was there a punishment for not fasting or celebrating Thanksgiving?

[RevolutionSD]

only a GD piece of paper if you believe GD GW Bush! and you know how much he lies.


lynn

It's the only truthful thing he said in 8 years.
No one in the federal government besides RP follows the constitution anymore, therefore, it's a goddamn piece of paper that has not stopped the growth of government.

[Brassmouth]

I'm just curious as to how my fellow Agnostics or Atheists deal with embracing a concept of government which was created with the foundation of religion and a creator. This was the one question that took me the longest time to explore and figure out through my self education on a lot of things, especially our founding fathers.

A lot of them were Deists, which is basically the 18th century version of an atheist. Thomas Jefferson went even further in some of his writing. A strong case can be made that he was indeed an atheist.

But yeah, even if they were religious, I see no reason to care. I'm baffled by the Founder worship that goes on here.

[BeFranklin]

Thomas Paine's writings inspired the men in the militias to fight, and on no small scale. Percentage wise, i'm pretty sure he has outsold any author in North America to this day. Giving him any credit short of a founding father really does not do him justice.

Thomas Paine is oversold today for political reasons because he is the only atheist atheists can easily find today to point to, but by defination he isn't a founding father. Also, at the time not everyone liked common sense and it was released anonymously (which to some was another mark against - men like Hancock and Samuel Adams did things in their own name, and were sought by the British for it). John Adams, and John Witherspoon were among the people who didn't like common sense at the time it was released, apart from later years when almost no one liked Thomas Paine.

And Paine's writings didn't inspire many to fight on any scale, since most of the recruitment of the militias was done in churches, and many were led by pastors. This is why there is virtually no chance of militia formation today, because it didn't even happen that way. The local church is a natural unit of community organization.

However, common sense does accurately quote from the OT about the Israelies wanting a king like the pagan nations around them, and rejecting God. That is in the bible, and well worth reading apart from common sense.

[BeFranklin]

Funny, Jefferson didn't try to repeal the 10th Amendment. :rolleyes:

Also, was there a punishment for not fasting or celebrating Thanksgiving?

He wrote those laws for Virgina in 1776, not for the federal governmnet under the constitution. Since this is the same time he was copying the Declaration of Independence, it tends to show his legal views at the time - one of five men on the committee.

[BeFranklin]

A lot of them were Deists, which is basically the 18th century version of an atheist. Thomas Jefferson went even further in some of his writing. A strong case can be made that he was indeed an atheist.

But yeah, even if they were religious, I see no reason to care. I'm baffled by the Founder worship that goes on here.

Most of them hated deism and really felt insulted when you called them that. Only paine can be called a deist or atheist, and he wasn't a founder, and that is the primary reason he was so disliked by the founders in later years.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173113
Deism thread

[hypnagogue]

Their religious views are of no interest to me.

[BeFranklin]

Their religious views are of no interest to me.

Their religious views are unseparable from their political views.

We take these truths to be self evident..

[hypnagogue]

Their religious views are unseparable from their political views.

We take these truths to be self evident.. I can and do separate them regularly.

[Theocrat]

I can and do separate them regularly.

I think BeFranklin's point was that one's religious beliefs will inevitably influence his political beliefs. Otherwise, that person is being arbitrary, which is a form of irrationality. Once you separate Constitutional government from a Christian view of human nature and human's role in government (separation/enumeration of powers), then it is impossible to justify the legitimacy of government in the first place, especially without contradiction.

[Mesogen]

I'm just curious as to how my fellow Agnostics or Atheists deal with embracing a concept of government which was created with the foundation of religion and a creator. This was the one question that took me the longest time to explore and figure out through my self education on a lot of things, especially our founding fathers.

What do you mean by "created with the foundation of religion"? Do you mean like in Iran?

I'm thinking most atheists would be against that.

If we are talking about the USA and the founding fathers, the government of the US wasn't "created with the foundation of religion." If one wanted to argue this point, I'd first have to ask him to show me the part in the constitution that suggests such.



Don't care about how a decision is made, but what impact the decisions have.

As for the Founders, the majority of them (though some of the exceptions are nearly superhuman in their promotion of individualism and living as an example) were racist Federalist scum, IMO.

Hell, they were all pretty much racist back then.

Even old TJ had a thing or two to say about how whites were superior to blacks.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch15s28.html

[heavenlyboy34]

What do you mean by "created with the foundation of religion"? Do you mean like in Iran?

I'm thinking most atheists would be against that.

If we are talking about the USA and the founding fathers, the government of the US wasn't "created with the foundation of religion." If one wanted to argue this point, I'd first have to ask him to show me the part in the constitution that suggests such.




Hell, they were all pretty much racist back then.

Even old TJ had a thing or two to say about how whites were superior to blacks.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch15s28.html

The highlighted is factually incorrect. TJ released the slaves he inherited from his father in law, and decried the institution on multiple occasions. :p

[Kludge]

Hell, they were all pretty much racist back then.

Even old TJ had a thing or two to say about how whites were superior to blacks.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch15s28.html

Hmmm... That was pretty much the one person I still admired from that era of indian slaughter and slave trade.

[Kludge]

The highlighted is factually incorrect. TJ released the slaves he inherited from his father in law, and decried the institution on multiple occasions. :p

Read the link...??

[t0rnado]

I'm an atheist and the Constitution protects my liberties and those of anyone else no matter what religious beliefs they hold. Arguing about what religion the Founding Fathers held is just encouraging more groupthink mentality and it's an attempt to say that one belief is better than another because the Founders held it.

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone upon man."

-Thomas Jefferson

"Experience witnesseth that eccelsiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785