Wrongfully Pulled Over and Ticketed... How to Fight?

[gb13]

I was pulled over on the way to work this morning. I was in the passing lane of Route 3 in MA; the cop was standing with his radar gun on the right shoulder. I saw him and I knew I wasn't going any faster than anyone else, so I didn't think anything of it. Next thing I know, he's riht behind me with his lights on. He claims I was going 86, and that everyone else was under 70... What a joke! I was driving NO faster than anyone else. Traffic was probably going aroud 77-78.

The guy was a dick, too. When he came up behind me we were right by an exit, so I took it and put my hazzards on so he would know I wasn't trying to get away. Then he sounded his loud buzzer/alarm right while we were on a bridge without even a safe brakedown lane, so I pulled right over. The guy jumped out of his car, rushed to my window and asked, "Were you planning on pulling over, or not?", in a very agitated tone. I told him I was just trying to find a safe place as traffic was a bit heavy. He didn't even acknowledge the response, just went about his business. Then when he cam back with the ticket, he just handed it to me, started to walk away, turned his head back toward me and said, "I've issued you a citation; the instructions are on the back", then he just got into his car and left.

$310.00!! I am so pissed right now, you wouldn't even believe me. I'm DEFINITELY fighting this bastard. Anyone have any advice?

[brandon]

I was pulled over on the way to work this morning. I was in the passing lane of Route 3 in MA; the cop was standing with his radar gun on the right shoulder. I saw him and I knew I wasn't going any faster than anyone else, so I didn't think anything of it. Next thing I know, he's riht behind me with his lights on. He claims I was going 86, and that everyone else was under 70... What a joke! I was driving NO faster than anyone else. Traffic was probably going aroud 77-78.

The guy was a dick, too. When he came up behind me we were right by an exit, so I took it and put my hazzards on so he would know I wasn't trying to get away. Then he sounded his loud buzzer/alarm right while we were on a bridge without even a safe brakedown lane, so I pulled right over. The guy jumped out of his car, rushed to my window and asked, "Were you planning on pulling over, or not?", in a very agitated tone. I told him I was just trying to find a safe place as traffic was a bit heavy. He didn't even acknowledge the response, just went about his business. Then when he cam back with the ticket, he just handed it to me, started to walk away, turned his head back toward me and said, "I've issued you a citation; the instructions are on the back", then he just got into his car and left.

$310.00!! I am so pissed right now, you wouldn't even believe me. I'm DEFINITELY fighting this bastard. Anyone have any advice?

What was the speed limit? Unfortunately, "I was just going with the flow of traffic." or "everyone else was going the same speed as me" are not legitimate defenses. They won't hold up in court. If you were speeding, you were speeding.

If you want to try to fight it, plea not guilty to the ticket and you will get your day in court. Fighting speeding tickets has been discussed pretty extensively in some other threads here. Try doing a search for it.

[muzzled dogg]

route 3 near lowell or near quincy?>

[gb13]

route 3 near lowell or near quincy?>

North of Lowell on the Nashua, N.H. border.

[gb13]

What was the speed limit? Unfortunately, "I was just going with the flow of traffic." or "everyone else was going the same speed as me" are not legitimate defenses. They won't hold up in court. If you were speeding, you were speeding.

If you want to try to fight it, plea not guilty to the ticket and you will get your day in court. Fighting speeding tickets has been discussed pretty extensively in some other threads here. Try doing a search for it.

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, unfortunately I was going over the limit, along w/ everyong else. I guess "I was singled out" isn't really an airtight defense... I'm still going to try, though. I'll do a search.

Anyone have a link?

[ClayTrainor]

This happened to my Grandpa once, when i was in the car with him, like 10 years ago.

Grandpa: "I was going the same speed as everyone else"
Officer: "I wasn't watching everyone else, i was watching you"

Unfortunately the law has us by the balls on this one but, you definitely can fight it or get it lowered.

Canada has something called the "justice of the peace", where you can go get your fine lowered if you plea guilty and give them a reason as to why they should lower it. I don't know if there's something similar in the US.

There is a company in Canada called "X-Copper" which is a bunch of former police officers who now spend their time fighting unfair traffic tickets. They lowered my ticket from 6 points down to 3 and lowered the fine, and didn't charge me for the service since they didn't completely eliminate the charge.

Look around in your yellowpages and talk to one of those agencies that helps people fight traffic tickets.

:cool:

[pacelli]

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, unfortunately I was going over the limit, along w/ everyong else. I guess "I was singled out" isn't really an airtight defense... I'm still going to try, though. I'll do a search.

Anyone have a link?

Try the National Motorists Association. http://www.motorists.org/ They have instructions on how you can do public records & discovery requests to fight it. If the radar said 86, then maybe the calibration records are bad or the gun hasn't been calibrated according to schedule.

See if you can find any public records that involve the same cop and multiple tickets being thrown out for one reason or another. If he is that much of a dick to intimidate you, chances are his cases haven't been going so well for the month.

[brandon]

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, unfortunately I was going over the limit, along w/ everyong else. I guess "I was singled out" isn't really an airtight defense... I'm still going to try, though. I'll do a search.

Anyone have a link?

Yea, that defense won't work. It's not even really worth trying.

Here is a thread I started about fighting a speeding ticket. There is some good info in there: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=151753&highlight=speeding

Sorry this happened to ya.

[Scofield]

The ticket is a Bill of Attainder.

It's given you a punishment before any trial has taken place. Use that in court.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Have you tried not driving like a maniac?

[Scofield]

Have you tried not driving like a maniac?

Maniac?

Have you ever been to Germany? If he was truly driving like a maniac, he would have had to have been going at least 100mph more than he was, as it's perfectly fine to drive upwards of 200mph on the Autobahn. In fact, the amount of vehicle related accidents in Germany is far fewer than that in America.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Maniac?

Have you ever been to Germany? If he was truly driving like a maniac, he would have had to have been going at least 100mph more than he was, as it's perfectly fine to drive upwards of 200mph on the Autobahn. In fact, the amount of vehicle related accidents in Germany is far fewer than that in America.

Anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac. Anyone who drives slower is a fucking idiot.

[brandon]

Anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac. Anyone who drives slower is a fucking idiot.

hah!

I completely agree. lmao

[gb13]

Yeah, I was driving like a complete psycho. What I failed to mention in my OP was that I also had four underage prostitutes in the car and we were all smoking meth. Thank goodness he didn't notice. Douche bag :p:D

This Bill of Attainder defense sounds interesting. Has that been known to work?

Edit: thanks for the links and tips, guys.

[JK/SEA]

Its all about revenue. Speeding tickets ARE NOT about safety and blah blah...

Best you can do is plead guilty to not driviving as fast as the cop said, and hope the judge reduces the fine...

good luck and slow the hell down.

oh yeah, btw, tell the judge you should be getting your bailout money soon and will be able to afford the fine by then.

[ARealConservative]

Its all about revenue. Speeding tickets ARE NOT about safety and blah blah...

Best you can do is plead guilty to not driviving as fast as the cop said, and hope the judge reduces the fine...

good luck and slow the hell down.

oh yeah, btw, tell the judge you should be getting your bailout money soon and will be able to afford the fine by then.

this really is the key. It is a revenue stream and the vast majority don;'t fight it.

twice I have showed up to fight the ticket only to find the officer was a no-show which forced the judge to rule in my favor.

[phill4paul]

First of all, find your place in this equation. Were you traveling with the flow of traffic, which would have put you beyond the speed limit? If so, then it is you that is the cause of the ticket.
Second step, let all negativity flow from you. Even though the cop was a dick you were the one that allowed him to peg you.
Third step. Plead to the D.A. Don't waste money on a lawyer.
Step four. With the money you saved from the lawyer and the plea buy guns and ammunition.:D

[Athan]

I was pulled over on the way to work this morning. I was in the passing lane of Route 3 in MA; the cop was standing with his radar gun on the right shoulder. I saw him and I knew I wasn't going any faster than anyone else, so I didn't think anything of it. Next thing I know, he's riht behind me with his lights on. He claims I was going 86, and that everyone else was under 70... What a joke! I was driving NO faster than anyone else. Traffic was probably going aroud 77-78.

The guy was a dick, too. When he came up behind me we were right by an exit, so I took it and put my hazzards on so he would know I wasn't trying to get away. Then he sounded his loud buzzer/alarm right while we were on a bridge without even a safe brakedown lane, so I pulled right over. The guy jumped out of his car, rushed to my window and asked, "Were you planning on pulling over, or not?", in a very agitated tone. I told him I was just trying to find a safe place as traffic was a bit heavy. He didn't even acknowledge the response, just went about his business. Then when he cam back with the ticket, he just handed it to me, started to walk away, turned his head back toward me and said, "I've issued you a citation; the instructions are on the back", then he just got into his car and left.

$310.00!! I am so pissed right now, you wouldn't even believe me. I'm DEFINITELY fighting this bastard. Anyone have any advice?

Tell the judge you want a "Trial by Jury". Then in a couple of years, see if they still care enough to give you a trial THEY have to pay for.

[gb13]

Tell the judge you want a "Trial by Jury". Then in a couple of years, see if they still care enough to give you a trial THEY have to pay for.

Can you actually get a "trial by jury" for a traffic violation? Could the judge just deny me one, or is there a proper way for me to request/demand one to ensure that it is granted?

[brandon]

Can you actually get a "trial by jury" for a traffic violation? Could the judge just deny me one, or is there a proper way for me to request/demand one to ensure that it is granted?

No you can't get a trial by jury.

The constitution states that every person facing trial on criminal charges has the right to a trial by jury. So according to the constitution you should be able to get one.

But the supreme court ruled that only people facing felony charges have the right to trial by jury.

Some states may provide you a trial by jury for lesser offenses, but it's not guaranteed.

[Scofield]

No you can't get a trial by jury.

The constitution states that every person facing trial on criminal charges has the right to a trial by jury. So according to the constitution you should be able to get one.

But the supreme court ruled that only people facing felony charges have the right to trial by jury.

Some states may provide you a trial by jury for lesser offenses, but it's not guaranteed.

Article III, Section II


The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed.

Amendment IV


In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Your individual State constitution will also guarantee your right to a trial by jury. If the court says no, you have just realized you have no rights as a Federal citizen of the United States. You are no longer under Common Law, but Merchant Law.

[brandon]

Trial by jury:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_trial#United_States

[LibForestPaul]

...I knew I wasn't going any faster than anyone else, so I didn't think anything of it. He claims I was going 86 I was driving NO faster than anyone else. Traffic was probably going aroud 77-78.


1. You were breaking traffic law.
2. Are the states strapped for cash?
3. Are cops looking to make up budget shortfalls?
4. DONT SPEED.

PS. The TICKET may be $310, wait until certain "FEES" are added. :)

[brandon]

Article III, Section II.

Ya, that's why I said the constitution gives us that right but it's not followed. Just like the right to bear arms is no longer an absolute right.

[Scofield]

Ya, that's why I said the constitution gives us that right but it's not followed. Just like the right to bear arms is no longer an absolute right.

Yeah, I edited my post to accommodate that.

Common Law = You have rights.
Merchant/Statutory Law = You have no rights.

Welcome to America. USA! USA! USA!

[Bodhi]

Anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac. Anyone who drives slower is a fucking idiot.

LOL, that made my day :D

[NYgs23]

If you go to court to contest it, often the cop doesn't even show up, and you'll win be default. At least that's how it is here in NY. They're gameplan is to assume, probably correctly, that most people will just pay it, rather than bother to contest it.

[american.swan]

So from reading this thread.

Step one(a): Tell boss your going to need some days off from work to fight the govment.
Step one(b): Fight it in court. Show up. You might win because the cop isn't there.
Step two: Background on the cop. Bad history of writing lousy citations.
Step three: "The ticket is a Bill of Attainder." argument.
Step four: "Trial by Jury" request ready another possible argument.
Step five: Pay the fine, and learn any lessons from the experience. Google is your friend :)

[Liberty Rebellion]

Its all about revenue. Speeding tickets ARE NOT about safety and blah blah...

Best you can do is plead guilty to not driviving as fast as the cop said, and hope the judge reduces the fine...

good luck and slow the hell down.

oh yeah, btw, tell the judge you should be getting your bailout money soon and will be able to afford the fine by then.

Exactly. And with States and municipalities having huge budget short-falls, you can bet they will be making it up by handing out more tickets.

Here's a recent study done on the topic:

http://www.physorg.com/news150992952.html

[Zippyjuan]

Germany is introducing speed limits on the Autobahn now- 75 mph. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,546291,00.html It is also considerably much harder and more expensive to get a drivers license in Germany than it is in the US so they are better drivers to begin with.

[Kludge]

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, unfortunately I was going over the limit, along w/ everyong else. I guess "I was singled out" isn't really an airtight defense... I'm still going to try, though. I'll do a search.

Unless you're a minority, this argument is bunk, as previous posters argued.

[RickyJ]

Canada has something called the "justice of the peace", where you can go get your fine lowered if you plea guilty and give them a reason as to why they should lower it. I don't know if there's something similar in the US.

We have no justice in the USA and there is no peace. I am glad to here you have some justice and peace up there in Canada. I might visit. :D

[devil21]

My thoughts. Does the ticket actually say you were doing 85? Are you sure you were not doing 85? If so, you can take it to trial and request the calibration certificate of the radar gun. Many times they arent calibrated on time (yearly I believe) or they dont have the certificate in court. Remember, they still have to prove that you were speeding beyond a reasonable doubt. How hard you want to fight it is up to you but you do have options, especially if you feel the cop is flat out lying.

[RickyJ]

Wongfully Pulled Over and Ticketed... How to Fight?

You need to be in shape and catch them off guard for best results. :D

If you seriously do not know how to fight then you should probably not fight.

[Nyte]

Couple of things:

Fight it. Go enter your plea of not guilty. At the very least, the city attorney will bargain with you when you go to trial.
Get a copy of the officer's copy of the citation and find out what notes he wrote on the ticket. (The less notes, the better.)
You'll get a date for trial. Obviously if the cop doesn't show, you win.
Since the officer was in a hurry, he may not have remembered any details about the encounter. Make sure you write down every little detail you can about the stop... what you were wearing, what the weather was like, what lane you were in, what the officer was wearing, is there any obvious damage to your car (dents, rust, etc)... every little specific detail you can think of...
If your case goes to trial, you can grill the officer on all those specific details... most likely he'll answer, "I don't recall." If you get enough of those answers, you can ask the Judge to dismiss the case since the city can't provide a reliable witness.
In most cases, it's best to not take the stand as a witness in your defense. The City Attorney will be trained to tear you down and make you look as bad as you just made the officer look.
It's so important to remember that the City Attorney has to PROVE YOUR GUILT. You are not there to prove your innocence. Going in with that mind set will give you a lot of confidence.
As previously stated... never, never, never, admit you were speeding. "Going with the flow," and, "Just going a couple over," is an admonition of speeding.
Dress in a shirt and tie, speak clearly and don't use slang, etc, etc.


Good luck! Keep us posted.

[american.swan]

Since the officer was in a hurry, he may not have remembered any details about the encounter. Make sure you write down every little detail you can about the stop... what you were wearing, what the weather was like, what lane you were in, what the officer was wearing, is there any obvious damage to your car (dents, rust, etc)... every little specific detail you can think of...
If your case goes to trial, you can grill the officer on all those specific details... most likely he'll answer, "I don't recall." If you get enough of those answers, you can ask the Judge to dismiss the case since the city can't provide a reliable witness.

Never thought of that. That made me laugh. Funny.

[Matt Collins]

Find out if it was RADAR or LIDAR (laser).

If it was laser then you are pretty much hosed*.

If it was RADAR then you need to call the law enforcement dept that issued the ticket request the make / model of the radar gun used. Then get a hold of the manual of the gun and read it. You'll find that radar guns are not as accurate as you would like to think. For example if there are metal structures anywhere around, the radar signal can bounce off that metal and pickup traffic in an oncoming lane. Go back and look at the area and see if there was any possibility that the radar could've bounced off of something and gotten another car. Also look at the distance the cop was away from you when he hit you. If you can figure that out then reference in the back of the manual for the radar gun what beam spread / width is. The guns are less accurate and less directional at longer distances. So if you can work it out you can cast enough doubt that the officer was actually hitting your car and not the big metal semi next to you. Or that it wasn't bouncing off the big metal road sign and hitting the traffic on the other side of the road.

*Regardless if it was laser or radar you need to call about a week before your court date and ask the clerk for a continuiance. That means that you can't show up and they will post pone the date. Try again when you get close to the date. The more often you do this the less likely the officer will remember anything about you. And in some cases the longer you wait before your trial the officer may not keep his notes, or he may even retire or get transferred or promoted. If you show up and the officer isn't there, you win.

But do your research and you'll see some decent websites on the best way to fight it. But you should definately fight it.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

have you tried not speeding?

[gb13]

Find out if it was RADAR or LIDAR (laser).

If it was laser then you are pretty much hosed*...

Thanks for the info. Yes, unfortunately it was lidar. I looked up a couple of websites on lidar, and pulled up some good info on its faults. For instance, if the officer's hand twitched even just a little bit, the reading could be off by as much as 10 mph. I'll use that. Also, I'm going to research the maintenance records of this particular lidar gun, if they are out of date I might be able to get it thrown out.

I have 20 days to mail the ticket back to request a hearing. I'm thinking of waiting as long as possible (19 days, to be safe), hopefully this will lessen the chances of the officer being able to make an appearance. Then I'm gonna take your advice and ask for a continuance.

I'm gonna take Nyte's advice too (thanks!), and get the officer's copy of the citation, and question him on all the specific details.. I like the idea.

Here's the question: Do you think I should go to the State Police Dept, now well before the trial and get all that info (citation, lidar records, etc,) or should I wait until just before the hearing, or sometime in between? What is the best approach?

Thanks for all the help, peeps :)

[bander87]

Maybe you can get the ticket lowered?

Arguing the radar gun was not collaborated correctly?
Asking when the radar gun was last collaborated and tested?

[Matt Collins]

Thanks for the info. Yes, unfortunately it was lidar. I looked up a couple of websites on lidar, and pulled up some good info on its faults. For instance, if the officer's hand twitched even just a little bit, the reading could be off by as much as 10 mph. I'll use that. Also, I'm going to research the maintenance records of this particular lidar gun, if they are out of date I might be able to get it thrown out. LIDAR is dead accurate and it's hard to punch holes in the accuracy of a LIDAR gun. Don't both asking for the maintenance records. But I would still try to get yourself a copy of the manual for that gun.

If you get in front of the judge and ask the officer how he holds the gun (with one hand or two). Then try and cast doubt about his abilities to hold the gun steady.

I think your best bet is to try and drag it out and ask for as many continuances as you can until they make you come in.





I have 20 days to mail the ticket back to request a hearing. I'm thinking of waiting as long as possible (19 days, to be safe), hopefully this will lessen the chances of the officer being able to make an appearance. Then I'm gonna take your advice and ask for a continuance.

I'm gonna take Nyte's advice too (thanks!), and get the officer's copy of the citation, and question him on all the specific details.. I like the idea.

Here's the question: Do you think I should go to the State Police Dept, now well before the trial and get all that info (citation, lidar records, etc,) or should I wait until just before the hearing, or sometime in between? What is the best approachWell very rarely does anyone actually request the notes and info about the officer and I'm sure it'll raise a red flag to the officer if you do it. So you have to be careful, but do what you think will attract the least amount of attention.

[BlackTerrel]

Have you tried not driving like a maniac?

Speed limits were set at a time when cars legitimately couldn't go that fast. Nowadays you can go 80 and barely feel it. That's not driving like a maniac.

[Nyte]

I'm gonna take Nyte's advice too (thanks!), and get the officer's copy of the citation, and question him on all the specific details.. I like the idea.

Here's the question: Do you think I should go to the State Police Dept, now well before the trial and get all that info (citation, lidar records, etc,) or should I wait until just before the hearing, or sometime in between? What is the best approach?

Thanks for all the help, peeps :)
Well very rarely does anyone actually request the notes and info about the officer and I'm sure it'll raise a red flag to the officer if you do it. So you have to be careful, but do what you think will attract the least amount of attention.

I disagree. I would get a copy of the officer's citation ASAP. Most likely, he won't have filed an "official" copy just yet. I believe the officer also has 20 days (the 20 you have for your hearing) to file his paperwork.

At your arraignment, ask the prosecutor for a copy of the officer's citation. Once you have that copy, then about a week later, ask the court clerk if the officer or attorney has filed any updates or additional paperwork for your case. If the clerk isn't accommodating, then you'll want to do an official discovery request.

Then right before your trial, ask the clerk again if any updates or additional paperwork has been filed.

I once was granted a continuance because the officer added additional notes to his ticket after I had already received my copy from my discovery request.

The other reason for doing this is because the officer is allowed to read from his notes prior to testifying, but he's not allowed once he's taken the stand. If he refers to his notes during testimony, you can object on the grounds that his notes are now hearsay, or if the notes have been changed since your discovery request, that you weren't provided an opportunity to review the prosecutions evidence prior to trial.

Hope that made sense.

[gb13]

I disagree. I would get a copy of the officer's citation ASAP. Most likely, he won't have filed an "official" copy just yet. I believe the officer also has 20 days (the 20 you have for your hearing) to file his paperwork.

At your arraignment, ask the prosecutor for a copy of the officer's citation. Once you have that copy, then about a week later, ask the court clerk if the officer or attorney has filed any updates or additional paperwork for your case. If the clerk isn't accommodating, then you'll want to do an official discovery request.

Then right before your trial, ask the clerk again if any updates or additional paperwork has been filed...

I don't know if I get a formal arraignment in MA. I think that the hearing is just one visit (at least from past experience). In MA, you check the box "Request a Hearing" on the back of the actual citation, mail it in, and then you get a court date in the mail. Could I maybe ask the judge, at the hearing, for a continuance -to prepare my defense, perhaps- after I get a copy of the officer's citation from the prosecutor? Think I'll have to get the materials before the hearing.

Would this alternative approach be effective in MA... Massholes, are you with me?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Scofield]

I say it over and over again. Jurisdiction.

Keep in mind you are fighting in their system, by their rules, which can change at anytime to benefit them.

Be prepared to lose.

How do you win?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Start by getting and reading a copy of the courts procedural rules.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Nyte]

I don't know if I get a formal arraignment in MA. I think that the hearing is just one visit (at least from past experience). In MA, you check the box "Request a Hearing" on the back of the actual citation, mail it in, and then you get a court date in the mail. Could I maybe ask the judge, at the hearing, for a continuance -to prepare my defense, perhaps- after I get a copy of the officer's citation from the prosecutor? Think I'll have to get the materials before the hearing.

Would this alternative approach be effective in MA... Massholes, are you with me?

I believe that initial hearing is when you enter your plea. I don't believe it would be the trial, but who knows... maybe they figure you're just going to plead not guilty and they will want to proceed with a trial.

In either case, if you want to request a continuance, you're going to have to show justifiable cause. One good reason, of course, is because you've requested, but have not received, a copy of the original citation and officer's notes. Just make sure you've made your request in a reasonable amount of time prior to your hearing... 2-3 weeks.

Again, that's why it's important to check again with the clerk on the day of, or a day or two before your hearing to see if anything has changed. If it has, you have cause for a continuance.

[sirgonzo420]

first off,


DO NOT ENTER A PLEA.

WHENEVER YOU ARE ASKED IF YOU UNDERSTAND, SAY NO!



Tell them that you have questions that need to be answered first.

Ask:

Am I entitled to a fair hearing?

Am I presumed innocent?

Am I presumed innocent of every element of the charge?

Who does the prosecutor represent?

Who do you represent here, judge?

How can I get a fair hearing when the judge is a party to the action?

*****

To Cop: Did you file a valid cause of action against me?

Cop: Yes.

To Cop: How many elements are there to a valid cause of action?

(the cop will not know -- the prosecutor will object that the cop is not qualified to testify.)

You demand that his entire testimony be thrown out, including the original ticket.


Also, you could refuse the ticket for cause within 72 hours.

Another option is using the common law default method, where you force the prosecutor to default and you win. Ticketslayer.com sells a package for I believe $75 that has the documents you need to file.

[Matt Collins]

first off,

Has anyone successfully tried these methods? :confused:

[gb13]

Mods, please delete.

[gb13]

Thanks a lot for the extensive info, sirgonzo.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind. If you're not sure about anything, that's cool too... The help is much appreciated.

I broke up your text accordingly:


first off,


DO NOT ENTER A PLEA.

WHENEVER YOU ARE ASKED IF YOU UNDERSTAND, SAY NO!


What do I do when they ask "how do you plea"? Should I say, "I don't have a plea"? Or do I just remain silent? I'm a bit blury on the right way to not file a plea... I didn't even know this was allowed :D:o


Tell them that you have questions that need to be answered first.

Ask:

Am I entitled to a fair hearing?

Am I presumed innocent?

Am I presumed innocent of every element of the charge?

Who does the prosecutor represent?

Who do you represent here, judge?

How can I get a fair hearing when the judge is a party to the action?

What is the answer you are assuming the judge will give to the second-to-last question? Also, do you think the last question ("how can I get a fair trial") risks pissing off the judge? I don't want to get on his/her bad side...


*****

To Cop: Did you file a valid cause of action against me?

Cop: Yes.

To Cop: How many elements are there to a valid cause of action?

(the cop will not know -- the prosecutor will object that the cop is not qualified to testify.)

You demand that his entire testimony be thrown out, including the original ticket.

How many elements are there actually? I don't know, myself, and I'd like to be aware of that info if I'm going to use this approach. Does it vary by state? Are you aware of this approach working?


Also, you could refuse the ticket for cause within 72 hours.

72 hours from when I got the citation? How would one go about doing that?


Another option is using the common law default method, where you force the prosecutor to default and you win. Ticketslayer.com sells a package for I believe $75 that has the documents you need to file.


Cool, I'll check that out. Never heard of that method... Thanks again for all the info, man!

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Nyte]

Unfortunately, the judge probably won't let him ask any of those questions until he enters a plea.

If he refuses to enter a plea, the judge will probably just enter in a not guilty plea, or worse, hold him in contempt.

[Danke]

T

What do I do when they ask "how do you plea"? Should I say, "I don't have a plea"? Or do I just remain silent? I'm a bit blury on the right way to not file a plea... I didn't even know this was allowed :D:o



How about "nolo contendere"?

[Danke]

first off,


DO NOT ENTER A PLEA.

WHENEVER YOU ARE ASKED IF YOU UNDERSTAND, SAY NO!



Tell them that you have questions that need to be answered first.

Ask:

Am I entitled to a fair hearing?

Am I presumed innocent?

Am I presumed innocent of every element of the charge?

Who does the prosecutor represent?

Who do you represent here, judge?

How can I get a fair hearing when the judge is a party to the action?

*****

To Cop: Did you file a valid cause of action against me?

Cop: Yes.

To Cop: How many elements are there to a valid cause of action?

(the cop will not know -- the prosecutor will object that the cop is not qualified to testify.)

You demand that his entire testimony be thrown out, including the original ticket.


Also, you could refuse the ticket for cause within 72 hours.

Another option is using the common law default method, where you force the prosecutor to default and you win. Ticketslayer.com sells a package for I believe $75 that has the documents you need to file.

Sounds like Marc Stevens (http://www.adventuresinlegalland.com/).

[Nyte]

How about "nolo contendere"?

Definitely don't want to do that. You basically wave your right to a trial. You'll get a couple of minutes to make a statement, but then you're entirely at the mercy of the court.

[sirgonzo420]

Thanks a lot for the extensive info, sirgonzo.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind. If you're not sure about anything, that's cool too... The help is much appreciated.

I broke up your text accordingly:



What do I do when they ask "how do you plea"? Should I say, "I don't have a plea"? Or do I just remain silent? I'm a bit blury on the right way to not file a plea... I didn't even know this was allowed :D:o



One way or another, they require your consent. Typically the judge will ask you if you have any questions before you proceed.

Don't plea -- tell them that you need to get some questions answered before you are able to plea.

It is best to say you PLAN to plead guilty, but need some questions asked first.

The goal of the questions is to box them in.

Traffic courts (and most other courts) are a fraud. Pure and simple.

If there is no injured party, then the plaintiff lacks standing.

There are many ways to beat the inJustice system.




What is the answer you are assuming the judge will give to the second-to-last question? Also, do you think the last question ("how can I get a fair trial") risks pissing off the judge? I don't want to get on his/her bad side...


Maybe, but as long as you are peaceful and calm he can't get too uptight. The Law is on YOUR side.

When asked who he represents, he may say "the judge". If he does, tell him you know his position, but who does he WORK for? Eventually, he will say "the state".

You must ask certain questions in a certain order to box the judge in where you use his statements against himself.

How CAN you get a fair trial if the cop, the judge and the prosecutor work for the same person? It is CLEARLY a conflict of interest. The judge knows this.





How many elements are there actually? I don't know, myself, and I'd like to be aware of that info if I'm going to use this approach. Does it vary by state? Are you aware of this approach working?



I'm not sure and it doesn't really matter. The point is that a traffic ticket is not a valid cause of action. The officer is not qualified to make a legal determination, and so his testimony must get thrown out. Typically when you go in and start fighting them (the right way) they will simply dismiss the case and away it goes.




72 hours from when I got the citation? How would one go about doing that?


I have never used that method, but I will post fuller instructions when I find them on my computer.

[sirgonzo420]

Unfortunately, the judge probably won't let him ask any of those questions until he enters a plea.

If he refuses to enter a plea, the judge will probably just enter in a not guilty plea, or worse, hold him in contempt.

If you don't understand, how can you enter a plea?

To enter a valid plea, you have to understand.

[sirgonzo420]

Questions do not prevail. Assertions of rights founded in sound legal arguments supported by common or case law do. Once the process reaches the point where you have to enter a plea you much is already assumed in the eyes of the law and you are severely disadvantaged. Probable cause is already established, etc.

Questions do prevail if you ask the right ones in the right order.

You can box the judge in.

He will dismiss before exposing the sham.


I've had a prosecutor refuse to let me have my day in court because he knew I would make him look like a fool. He dismissed the case before I could fight it!

[libertarian4321]

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, unfortunately I was going over the limit, along w/ everyong else. I guess "I was singled out" isn't really an airtight defense... I'm still going to try, though. I'll do a search.

Anyone have a link?

That's how they make money- the pick a spot where they know everyone is going over the limit and its like shooting fish in a barrel- they just pick one and pull it over.

They try to pull in as many fish as they can- so every second you delay him is time he can't spend giving someone else a ticket. They usually just sit there all day writing ticket after ticket after ticket.

[Mopsus]

Guys, hate to break it to you. The game is rigged. The judge (who is usually a rent-a-judge) gets a cut from the fines too-- At least here in Indiana.

To illustrate the injustice, the sheriff of Marion County is the highest paid Indiana public servant because he gets a commission on all served summons and related documents.

I've fought 4 speeding tickets in court over the last 20 years and have used all of the defenses mentioned above. I was railroaded by the judges and judicially "laughed at."

My only victory was when I asked the county Clerk for a continuance and the cop didn't appear. The motion for continuance is pretty much rubberstamped and approved here. Then, pray the officer doesn't show up because of the date change.

BTW, grow your fingernails as the judge will put you at the back of the docket in an effort to allow the officer time to show up.

Hope this helps---Good luck.