Got into an argument with my political science professor today

[rational thinker]

So in class today, our professor asked as what political ideology do each of us identify with. This is a university so the class was pretty big, but the point is that when it got to around my turn, I stated "libertarian." I was the only libertarian in the whole class, so he found that interesting.

So he questions me. He asks, "Really? That's intriguing. Do you read any particular works?"
"Yes."
"By whom?"
"Well, mostly Friedrich Hayek, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, John Locke, and Thomas Jefferson."

That's when he made a weird face and then said, "I'm sorry, but one of those people are not like the rest. Can you guess who?"
I stood there for a minute trying to figure it out, and then decided it was probably Ayn Rand as she was a pretty militant person. But he said, "No, it's Jefferson!"

He said that Thomas Jefferson was not anything close to a modern day libertarian and that he would be a liberal by today's standards. I tried arguing with him but the whole class just started to laugh and then a couple of kids were like, "Yup, typically nutty libertarians."

I don't know. I was pretty pissed off and found it exhilarating to type this up on this forum.:)

[Sandra]

The laughing was due to the students assumption that your professor knew what he was talking about. They were reacting with nervousness, actually. Ask the student that laughed what a libertarian is.

[nate895]

Your professor is nuts.

That would mean:

Jefferson=Liberal, and
Obama=Liberal, therefore
Jefferson=Obama

I would have asked him what modern "liberal" he would be on par with.

[micahnelson]

Your teacher seems to be pretty good at applying labels on people. Though Jefferson supported education, I doubt he would be pleased with our modern education system and the Department of Education.

Everyone claims jefferson, and rightfully they would- he is of singular greatness among great men.

[orafi]

You should have stood up and said "I am not going to participate in this political circle jerk", bid everyone farewell, tipped your hate and left.

Shit man!

[Liberty Rebellion]

So in class today, our professor asked as what political ideology do each of us identify with. This is a university so the class was pretty big, but the point is that when it got to around my turn, I stated "libertarian." I was the only libertarian in the whole class, so he found that interesting.

So he questions me. He asks, "Really? That's intriguing. Do you read any particular works?"
"Yes."
"By whom?"
"Well, mostly Friedrich Hayek, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, John Locke, and Thomas Jefferson."

That's when he made a weird face and then said, "I'm sorry, but one of those people are not like the rest. Can you guess who?"
I stood there for a minute trying to figure it out, and then decided it was probably Ayn Rand as she was a pretty militant person. But he said, "No, it's Jefferson!"

He said that Thomas Jefferson was not anything close to a modern day libertarian and that he would be a liberal by today's standards. I tried arguing with him but the whole class just started to laugh and then a couple of kids were like, "Yup, typically nutty libertarians."

I don't know. I was pretty pissed off and found it exhilarating to type this up on this forum.:)

Dude, arm yourself with some Jefferson quotes and go back there and show him how wrong he is. Jefferson is nowhere near a modern day "liberal."

Also, ask him to define what a liberal is. That way you can nail him on it. Tell him Jefferson abolished the central bank of the time and ask him what modern-day liberals think about a central bank (if they even think about it at all).

That pisses me off too

I wonder if when he said, "One is not like the rest," if he even knew who the other people were!

[heavenlyboy34]

Your prof is getting his labels confused, it seems. ;) lol In my experience, some profs will make shit up just to sound smart-especially in the Liberal Arts division. :rolleyes:

[AutoDas]

I don't think there was a central bank back then. You must be confusing that with Jackson. Jefferson was a protectionist, but that's all that I can think of that can make him a modern liberal.

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't think there was a central bank back then. You must be confusing that with Jackson. Jefferson was a protectionist, but that's all that I can think of that can make him a modern liberal.

There was a central bank at that time. It's a long story-I'll dig up links later for ya if someone else hasn't done it already.

[MRoCkEd]

I don't think there was a central bank back then. You must be confusing that with Jackson. Jefferson was a protectionist, but that's all that I can think of that can make him a modern liberal.
There wasn't a central bank, but he definitely was against them.

"I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale."

A lot more here:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1325.htm

[Xenophage]

University professors are mostly stupid. Of course, you know that Thomas Jefferson provided much of the ideological framework around which libertarianism formed.

[dannno]

I don't think there was a central bank back then. You must be confusing that with Jackson. Jefferson was a protectionist, but that's all that I can think of that can make him a modern liberal.

The Central Bank back then was England.

[MRoCkEd]

The Central Bank back then was England.
oh yea, dur

[Xenophage]

The first central bank of the United States was dreamed up by Alexander Hamilton. Thomas Jefferson made it well known that he was A) Against the U.S. government minting any official coin and B) Against the chartering of any federal banks. Read about the First Bank of the United States on wikipedia.

[Sandra]

I do find that teachers in ideological subjects such as politics, economics, philosophy tend to teach their opinion as fact. That's why it's turning to junky degrees and there seems to be very little oversight by the universities.

[Xenophage]

Its also important to note that the first bank of the U.S. was nothing even close to resembling the federal reserve today. Hamilton insisted -

* That the Bank was to be a private company.
* That the Bank would have a twenty year charter running from 1791 to 1811, after which time it would be up to the Congress to renew or deny renewal of the bank and its charter; however, during that time no other federal bank would be authorized; states, for their part, would be free to charter however many intrastate banks they wished.
* That the Bank, to avoid any appearance of impropriety, would:

1. be forbidden to buy government bonds.
2. have a mandatory rotation of directors.
3. neither issue notes nor incur debts beyond its actual capitalization.

* That foreigners, whether overseas or residing in the United States, would be allowed to be Bank of the United States stockholders, but would not be allowed to vote.
* That the Secretary of the Treasury would be free to remove government deposits, inspect the books, and require statements regarding the banks condition as frequently as once a week.[3]

[nate895]

I don't think there was a central bank back then. You must be confusing that with Jackson. Jefferson was a protectionist, but that's all that I can think of that can make him a modern liberal.

Jefferson wasn't a protectionist:


Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.

Hard to do that when you are a protectionist.

[FrankRep]

Your professor is nuts.

That would mean:

Jefferson=Liberal, and
Obama=Liberal, therefore
Jefferson=Obama

I would have asked him what modern "liberal" he would be on par with.

How does your professor define a liberal?

[FrankRep]

Jefferson wasn't a protectionist:
Jefferson abolished income taxes and ran the government from tariffs. Are tariffs a form of protectionism?

[AutoDas]

Jefferson wasn't a protectionist:

In the Napoleonic Wars he blocked Britain and France access to American ports. Americans suffered greatly and it jump started the American industries.


Hard to do that when you are a protectionist.

Yeah, I favor Jefferson's writings over his presidency.

[nate895]

Jefferson abolished income taxes and ran the government from tariffs. Are tariffs a form of protectionism?

A small tariff

[socialize_me]

Jefferson abolished income taxes and ran the government from tariffs. Are tariffs a form of protectionism?

What the FUCK? There weren't income taxes back in the early 1800's!! What are you smoking??

Lincoln passed the first income tax in 1862 I believe which led to riots. Think if they tried passing an income tax in fuckin' 1804...you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Tariffs were established before Jefferson was even president. What books have you been fuckin' reading?

[nate895]

In the Napoleonic Wars he blocked Britain and France access to American ports. Americans suffered greatly and it jump started the American industries.



Yeah, I favor Jefferson's writings over his presidency.

Access to ports is a military procedure, and is customary in a time of war when you wish to maintain neutrality to restrict belligerent port access. Ultimately, when one side or the other starts having to use your ports more often because they are losing, the other side will claim that you are really just being an ally, will declare you a belligerent, and go to war.

Same thing almost happened in the Civil War because the Union and European powers would constantly square off on what were legitimate Confederate port activities.

[MCockerill08]

Jefferson was a MAJOR PROPONENT of the Constitution if I'm not mistaken.

Isn't it reasonable to infer him to be a constitutionalist (though not necessarily 100% libertarian) like Ron Paul rather than a "loose constructionist," like Obama?

[Kalifornia]

Your professor got confused. what he meant to say is that Jefferson's philosophy is what the modern liberal SHOULD be, except that modern liberals have been coopted by socialism/communism/statism.

[Philmanoman]

I found this...seems interesting...then again its treas.gov :eek:



http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/taxes/ustax.shtml


The Post Revolutionary Era

The Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781, reflected the American fear of a strong central government and so retained much of the political power in the States. The national government had few responsibilities and no nationwide tax system, relying on donations from the States for its revenue. Under the Articles, each State was a sovereign entity and could levy tax as it pleased.

When the Constitution was adopted in 1789, the Founding Fathers recognized that no government could function if it relied entirely on other governments for its resources, thus the Federal Government was granted the authority to raise taxes. The Constitution endowed the Congress with the power to "…lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States." Ever on guard against the power of the central government to eclipse that of the states, the collection of the taxes was left as the responsibility of the State governments.

To pay the debts of the Revolutionary War, Congress levied excise taxes on distilled spirits, tobacco and snuff, refined sugar, carriages, property sold at auctions, and various legal documents. Even in the early days of the Republic, however, social purposes influenced what was taxed. For example, Pennsylvania imposed an excise tax on liquor sales partly "to restrain persons in low circumstances from an immoderate use thereof." Additional support for such a targeted tax came from property owners, who hoped thereby to keep their property tax rates low, providing an early example of the political tensions often underlying tax policy decisions.

Though social policies sometimes governed the course of tax policy even in the early days of the Republic, the nature of these policies did not extend either to the collection of taxes so as to equalize incomes and wealth, or for the purpose of redistributing income or wealth. As Thomas Jefferson once wrote regarding the "general Welfare" clause:

To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
With the establishment of the new nation, the citizens of the various colonies now had proper democratic representation, yet many Americans still opposed and resisted taxes they deemed unfair or improper. In 1794, a group of farmers in southwestern Pennsylvania physically opposed the tax on whiskey, forcing President Washington to send Federal troops to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion, establishing the important precedent that the Federal government was determined to enforce its revenue laws. The Whiskey Rebellion also confirmed, however, that the resistance to unfair or high taxes that led to the Declaration of Independence did not evaporate with the forming of a new, representative government.

During the confrontation with France in the late 1790's, the Federal Government imposed the first direct taxes on the owners of houses, land, slaves, and estates. These taxes are called direct taxes because they are a recurring tax paid directly by the taxpayer to the government based on the value of the item that is the basis for the tax. The issue of direct taxes as opposed to indirect taxes played a crucial role in the evolution of Federal tax policy in the following years. When Thomas Jefferson was elected President in 1802, direct taxes were abolished and for the next 10 years there were no internal revenue taxes other than excises.

To raise money for the War of 1812, Congress imposed additional excise taxes, raised certain customs duties, and raised money by issuing Treasury notes. In 1817 Congress repealed these taxes, and for the next 44 years the Federal Government collected no internal revenue. Instead, the Government received most of its revenue from high customs duties and through the sale of public land.

[satchelmcqueen]

i just hate the whole idea of labels on anything political. im know you must have a word for what you generally think, but i think most people get to hung up on the word/group and not what you as a person have to really say.

tell your professor to fuck off.

[lucius]

So in class today, our professor asked as what political ideology do each of us identify with. This is a university so the class was pretty big, but the point is that when it got to around my turn, I stated "libertarian." I was the only libertarian in the whole class, so he found that interesting.

So he questions me. He asks, "Really? That's intriguing. Do you read any particular works?"
"Yes."
"By whom?"
"Well, mostly Friedrich Hayek, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, John Locke, and Thomas Jefferson."

That's when he made a weird face and then said, "I'm sorry, but one of those people are not like the rest. Can you guess who?"
I stood there for a minute trying to figure it out, and then decided it was probably Ayn Rand as she was a pretty militant person. But he said, "No, it's Jefferson!"

He said that Thomas Jefferson was not anything close to a modern day libertarian and that he would be a liberal by today's standards. I tried arguing with him but the whole class just started to laugh and then a couple of kids were like, "Yup, typically nutty libertarians."

I don't know. I was pretty pissed off and found it exhilarating to type this up on this forum.:)

Don't argue with these shills, ie. don't be the one. Read the 1954 US Congressional Reece Committee Hearings, your view of academia may be down-graded even further. Can you believe that you are actually paying for your own indoctrination...masterful!

[Michael Landon]

Does your Professor have an e-mail at the school? I'm sure there is a few of us that would be willing to explain the difference between Jefferson and modern day liberals.

- ML

[Athan]

Yes, because Jefferson WANTED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO INTERFERE WITH THE ECONOMY.

He also fought with Alexander Hamilton because HE WANTED TO ESTABLISH A CENTRAL BANK TO PAY FOR US DEBT.

Oh shit, wait a second. That is completely fucking wrong. Perhaps your idiot professor bungled the commonly understood fact that Thomas Jefferson believed in "Classical liberalism" and would be considered a "paleo-conservative" when it comes to Constitutional government. Today's liberal is socialist which has nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson.

[Liberty Rebellion]

I don't think there was a central bank back then. You must be confusing that with Jackson. Jefferson was a protectionist, but that's all that I can think of that can make him a modern liberal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bank_of_the_United_States

I forgot that he didn't abolish it (was thinking of Jackson), but he was opposed to it.

Here's an article of Madison debating the Constitutionality of a central bank
http://www.jmu.edu/madison/center/main_pages/madison_archives/era/parties/power/bank.htm

[danberkeley]

What I don't understand is why you didnt mention Murray Rothbard.

[Conza88]

What I don't understand is why you didnt mention Murray Rothbard.

Yeah, or Ludwig Von Mises... :(

Ah, wtf Milton Friendman! :eek: (He's ok for introductory)

Ah well... don't worry OP. There will be a next time, he'll probably try come at you again at some point.

I'm better at arguing in written form, not on the spot. I'm the guy who thinks of the absolute utter "shutdown" to end all arguments, about 10 minutes after the 'moment'.. but I'm getting better. :D

Just got to think real quick on your feet - and PRACTICE is what its all about. Over time ,you'll get the same socialist rebuttals to all your points, and you'll have the same nice answer to fall back on. It's why Ron Paul is so good. 30 years of it... :D

What may be helpful is, always question their premises and ask for definitions. "What is his premise?" "What are his definitions". Also get some great quotes; do like a list of ALL the topics that may be covered, and go to http://www.libertarianquotes.com/quotes1.html - Quotable Mise pdf... or scan for others quotes on subjects and compile a 'cheat sheet'. :)

Best summation would have been;
Thomas Jefferson = Classical Liberal.
Classical Liberal = Libertarian.

And have faith in yourself, he has the PHD in lies, you have it in reality. :cool: Be confident, you'll do good.

[Zolah]

In the Napoleonic Wars he blocked Britain and France access to American ports. Americans suffered greatly and it jump started the American industries.



Yeah, I favor Jefferson's writings over his presidency.

I may be mistaken, so I apologise in advance, but I believe that would be more to do with wanting to stay neutral in the conflicts of Britain and France specifically, both were vying for America's attention and there were great concessions made to remain neutral.

[Mordan]

OP got tricked like Ron Paul used to be tricked. send him back a relevant question or just ignore the bullshit.

like "we might disagree on the definition of liberal then. I read Thomas Jefferson because many of his ideas are interesting and it is a matter of debate which are liberal or not."

he got you in a trick man. they all trick you when arguing.

[rational thinker]

Yeah, or Ludwig Von Mises... :(

Ah, wtf Milton Friendman! :eek: (He's ok for introductory)



lol, sorry about that. I was just kind of put on the spot all of a sudden because I didn't expect him to ask for influences. Keep in mind, he only asked me of all people because he found it interesting that I was a libertarian (and I was the only one in the whole class). So yeah, I was thinking... thinking... and then those people came out. I don't think it was that bad but if I could do it again, I would definitely mention Murray Rothbard and Mises.

[Athan]

Mention the fact that he is confusing liberal with "Classical liberalism."

Why? Jefferson was adamantly against government interference and was NOT a federalist like Hamilton. Jefferson did not want a strong federal government unlike modern liberals.

[RonPaulalways]

Your professor has no business teaching young people about politics.

This is what James Madison, the "father of the Constitution", and a close ideological and political ally of Thomas Jefferson, had to say about federal involvement in schools:

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress.... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America."

Both Madison and Jefferson were against a central bank, Jefferson even more so than Madison.

Thomas Jefferson was a hardcore libertarian.

Here's what he thought of welfare/social-programs:

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. "

Here's what he thought of big-government/high-taxes:

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."

Here's what he thought of the right to bear arms:

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

The federal government made up only 3% of GDP before 1913. Today it makes up 20% of GDP. The founding fathers were radical libertarians compared to the average person today. That is why America became the strongest economy in the world.

Tell your professor that today, the countries with the smallest governments in the world, as a percentage of GDP, Hong Kong and Singapore, lead the developed world in annual economic growth, and have an average life expectancy almost 4 years greater than the US.

Tell him that big government doesn't work. Taxation destroys people and their opportunities. Countries with lower taxation and restrictions always progress and develop more quickly.

[dr. hfn]

kick asss!!! Keep up the good work, you know the truth!

[Johnsgoat]

I'm usually fearful of any class or generally anything that opens up with asking one's political ideology. I usually like to figure out the professor then decide how to best apply my ideology in questions, class discussion and papers. Although last semester I broke from this policy as I used going to the Rally for the Republic as reason for missing the first couple of classes.

[Volitzer]

You can be a libertarian and a Constitutionalist.

Let's not confuse liberal and libertarian they are to sperate things.

Libertarian as opposed to authoritarian.

Liberal as oppsosed to being conservative.

Ron Paul could best be descried as a conservative-libertarian.

Take the test here:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
(Click on 'Take the test' in the upper left)

[Volitzer]

By this test I am a left-libertarian.

[Bman]

So in class today, our professor asked as what political ideology do each of us identify with. This is a university so the class was pretty big, but the point is that when it got to around my turn, I stated "libertarian." I was the only libertarian in the whole class, so he found that interesting.

So he questions me. He asks, "Really? That's intriguing. Do you read any particular works?"
"Yes."
"By whom?"
"Well, mostly Friedrich Hayek, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, John Locke, and Thomas Jefferson."

That's when he made a weird face and then said, "I'm sorry, but one of those people are not like the rest. Can you guess who?"
I stood there for a minute trying to figure it out, and then decided it was probably Ayn Rand as she was a pretty militant person. But he said, "No, it's Jefferson!"

He said that Thomas Jefferson was not anything close to a modern day libertarian and that he would be a liberal by today's standards. I tried arguing with him but the whole class just started to laugh and then a couple of kids were like, "Yup, typically nutty libertarians."

I don't know. I was pretty pissed off and found it exhilarating to type this up on this forum.:)


Sounds like you should be able to get some good extra credit and serious recommendations from the guy if you can right a paper that thoroughly explains why Thomas Jefferson had libertarian values.

I'd view this as an opportunity rather than getting pissed about it. But what am I saying. When I was your age I would have gotten pissed also. But my age tells me to tell you to try and take advantage of the situation. I'd actually do it, then ask him if you could read the paper to the class and hand out copies that anyone could try to counter if they like.

GET TO WORK!

[CUnknown]

Right, it all depends on your definition of liberal. But, I agree with your professor on the point that if you had to pick one person to seperate from that group, Jefferson would be him. He is certainly somewhat different in philosophy from Ayn Rand or Milton Friedman.

But.. so what? Your professor was just trying to pick on you. Why bring up a slight difference in philosophy as if it means you don't know what you're talking about? Jefferson would be a liberal supporter of Ron Paul, but he would probably have voted for Ron Paul over Obama or McCain.

The only way you can call Jefferson a conservative is in today's political climate which is so f'ed up that anyone who believes in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is deemed not "progressive" enough. The sort of knee-jerk reaction that people have today where if you don't like Roe v Wade and if you think the 2nd Amendment isn't "outdated", you are automatically labeled a conservative by those "progressives" out there.

[xd9fan]

your not going to win.

He will not change.

move on or if you want take it to the letter to the editor.

I did that once with a prof (that was NOT my teacher at the time)
I kicked his ass publicly......readers loved it.....it felt great.

take it public in the papers...they shut the fuck up by God quick

they need to be called out.....outside of their little world

[sdczen]

Note that "labels" have changed over the years.

Old school libertarian = Classical Liberal
Old school Republican = Paleo-conservative
Old school Democrat = Today's conservative

New school beltway Libertarian = Interventionist progressive Libertarian
New school paleo-Libertarian = Anarcho-Capitalist or Minarchist
New school Republican = 1930's - 1970's Democrat "Neoconservatives"
New school Democrat = Progressive Socialist "Neoliberals"

I consider today's Democratic & Republican parties as essentially the same party = Neo-Fascists

[Imperial]

For most of Jefferson's time there was a central bank. The First Bank of the United States under Washington created by Hamilton, and the Second 1816 through the Bank Wars under Jackson created in the nationalist euphoria after the War of 1812.

One of Jefferson's grave errors was shoving principle under the mat to reunite the Republic after the Revolution of 1800(passing of power from Federalists to Jeffersonians). He allowed the central bank to survive and kept the tariffs for political expediency. Did he support them though? I don't think so. Jefferson as philosopher spoke out against that type of thing, and rejected the uplifting of one class over another(even though he preferred agriculturists over all others, why he eliminated the unfair excise taxes of the past that are today sin taxes...)

Sure Jefferson supported education, but there are libertarians who would tolerate such a national system to an extent, at least made on a state level.

Even if Jefferson could be considered liberal(obviously he would disagree with much of the "liberal" agenda if you can call it that), what does it matter? I bet he would say Thoreau was a liberal along the same lines, when obviously there is a bridge to be built to his ideas. Same thing with conservatives like Reagan; even if they aren't liberatarian, it doesn't mean you reject their ideas outright. I would've laughed at that guy outright.

[SirFelix]

Don't let it bother you, your professor just needs some educating. If it was me, I would work in the facts of the matter into an appropriate homework assignment.

Thanks for sharing