Ron Paul: The War on Religion

[LibertyEagle]

The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.
Excerpted from:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

[tonesforjonesbones]

Thanks Liberty...that was great..tones

[M House]

I come from the Alabama. It's mostly hype. We have Anglican Churches, actually. The way I see he's both right and wrong if those are his actual words. Replace Christianity with Protestantism and the article would be alittle more fair. However, blame the politicians most of them are of that base.....supposedly.

[LibertyEagle]

I come from the Alabama. It's mostly hype. We have Anglican Churches, actually. The way I see he's both right and wrong if those are his actual words. Replace Christianity with Protestantism and the article would be alittle more fair. However, blame the politicians most of them are of that base.....supposedly.

:rolleyes:

Yes, those are his words. Go check it out for yourself.

[M House]

Well not my problem if collective "Christians" wanna battle this one out. It's pretty simple to me, government doesn't do anything special for your religion or the right to interfere with it in most cases. However, I can see some validity in keeping the Church in check. Are you LE mainstream protestant or evangelical? Would you want either making decisions on your faith? So it's case by case and you need some better Justices, obviously.

[LibertyEagle]

I'm not battling anything. I'm just watching you squirm. :p

[M House]

I'm not Christian, the thing that irritates me is one sided argument. I'm just pointing it out that many "Christians" might be willing to interfere with your religion as well.

[LibertyEagle]

I'm not suggesting anyone interfere with anyone's religion. That's what religious tolerance is all about.

[M House]

The early Christian colonies had many issues related to what was acceptable religion. Many of them didn't celebrate Christmas either. There's no reason to think this concept still doesn't apply.

[heavenlyboy34]

There's another RP interview on this topic here:http://www.beliefnet.com/News/Politics/2008/01/Ron-Pauls-Christian-Values-Pro-Life-Anti-War.aspx


An interesting excerpt: Does that mean you now consider yourself an evangelical?

Yeah, I do. But I’m not sure that every single person that uses those labels are absolutely uniform and that people know exactly what they mean… some evangelicals get a little bit annoyed because I’m not always preaching and saying, “I’m this, I’m this, and this.” I think my obligation is to reflect my beliefs in my life. I like the statement in the Bible (http://www.beliefnet.com/section/quiz/index.asp?sectionID=10002&surveyID=428) that when you’re really in deep prayer you go to your closet. You don’t do it out on the streets and brag about it and say, “Look how holy I am.” If a person has true beliefs and is truly born again, it will be reflected in their life.


RP seems to interpret his faith differently than many of the RPF Christians. Regardless, RP rocks!! :D

[LibertyEagle]

RP seems to interpret his faith differently than many of the RPF Christians. Regardless, RP rocks!! :D

Yeah, after all, he only wrote an article about it, that went out to people across the entire country. :p:D

[M House]

Nobody has the right to make you pray in a closet either or tell you how to decorate a tree. However this shouldn't be something the Fed or State should have a damn bit of business in. Reminds me of how people get up in arms about not having that moment of silence or prayer in school. You should be able to pray in school however it's not their job to do it for you or to make anyone else join in.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yeah, after all, he only wrote an article about it, that went out to people across the entire country. :p:D

Exactly. ;):)

[LibertyEagle]

You're not making any sense, hb.

[Uriel999]

At the same time as somebody who is not religious "don't tread on me."

[heavenlyboy34]

You're not making any sense, hb.

I'm in a nonsense kind of mood at the moment. It happens on occasion. :eek::)

[Brassmouth]

with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance.

Wow, sounds fun. But didn't that already happen in human history? I think it was called the Middle Ages, and the Dark Ages. I whole lot of people died because they didn't believe in invisible men, if I remember correctly....

[LibertyEagle]

From most of the posts thus far, sounds like Ron Paul was right again.

[Chosen]

Borst a writer commenting on Gramsci noted how Communists hated the role of the church in society and saw it as an obstacle. The church provided the masses with too much connection to local culture and ideals. The mass gave loyalty to their communities and sought refuge and protection in the church. Most authoritarian collectivists want this to be under government control, with mandatory participation.

Ron Paul is right in regards to the hatred collectivists have of any institution they cannot control, most especially the church.

[M House]

Why cuz somebody said the Dark Ages sucked? They did suck alot. Um so did alot of early history. You know take a look at the history of your very own Christian group, whatever it maybe. Was it heretical, persecuted, etc? I mean that kinda stuff still went on in the early colonies as well.

[LibertyEagle]

Wow, sounds fun. But didn't that already happen in human history? I think it was called the Middle Ages, and the Dark Ages. I whole lot of people died because they didn't believe in invisible men, if I remember correctly....

You're missing the point, Brassmouth. A lot of the higher ups that have pushed secularism and humanism have done so for a purpose. The goal is to remove religion, predominantly Christianity, so that people will not have anything coming between their allegiance to the state. This has happened in country after country, before the downfall. It's all part of the agenda.

It doesn't mean that you have to believe in Christ. That's what religious tolerance is all about. It also works in the other direction, you know. In that, you should be tolerant of others who do believe in a higher being.

Why is it that some of you guys can see conspiracies in everything coming around the corner, but you cannot see this real one. Or is it that you hate Christ and those who believe in Him so much, that you just won't admit it?

[M House]

Okay seriously LibertyEagle are you original Calvinistic presbyterian or traditional congregationalist? If you don't fit into either category, you might want to share. This nation was not infact very religiously tolerant at it's start. Our founders seemed to have recognized that issue. Infact, many of the breakaway churches preached humanism.

[LibertyEagle]

Okay seriously LibertyEagle are you original Calvinistic presbyterian or traditional congregationalist? If you don't fit into either category, you might want to share. This nation was not infact very religiously tolerant at it's start. Our founders seemed to have recognized that issue. Infact, many of the breakaway churches preached humanism.

Protestant.

I'm not sure what "breakaway churches" you're talking about, but the people who wrote the Humanist Manifesto were a pack of socialists with ill intent.

[M House]

Humanism goes way back and was originally a religious concept. Protestant doesn't mean much are we talking mainline or evangelical. You might as well just state your denomination. There's nothing wrong with your faith, but depending on the movement, it probably had a very rocky start.

[LibertyEagle]

Humanism goes way back and was originally a religious concept. Protestant doesn't mean much are we talking mainline or evangelical. You might as well just state your denomination. There's nothing wrong with your faith, but depending on the movement, it probably had a very rocky start.

lol.

My religion is none of your business. All you seem to be doing anyway is to derail the thread.

[AutoDas]

Borst a writer commenting on Gramsci noted how Communists hated the role of the church in society and saw it as an obstacle. The church provided the masses with too much connection to local culture and ideals. The mass gave loyalty to their communities and sought refuge and protection in the church. Most authoritarian collectivists want this to be under government control, with mandatory participation.

Ron Paul is right in regards to the hatred collectivists have of any institution they cannot control, most especially the church.

The church and Karl Marx's communist state competed for the same power over the people so of course he's going to hate it.

[M House]

Actually not even a few hundred years ago in this country, it would have your entire communities' business.

another thing: I'm not derailing anything. I was just pointing out that you might not be in the Christian majority, you place yourself so highly in. If I remember right, you or someone else here made a very similar thread with same article awhile ago.

[M House]

Communists were primarily Orthodox in Russia. People are always about fighting the mainstream until it gets to stupid stuff like this. Just look up the Russian Orthodox church and it's communist leaders and then tell me why this is stupid.

[M House]

There's what they teach you on Christian propaganda sites and crappy textbooks and this......

http://wwrn.org/article.php?idd=29743

I had a better article posted awhile back about this religious commie leader from a better publication.

[M House]

Okay, I'll be fair history is kinda jumbled to say the least. The usual thinking is Lenin and Stalin presided over the Orthodox Church and it's destruction. However, it appears Stalin later reorganized and used it in his communist methodology. If someone wishes to find a much more intricate analysis that doesn't support the CIA or something it would be useful. I know the people around here can dig up some crazy stuff.

[Uriel999]

Look people, man if you want to practice a faith and believe in it that is fantastic for you. However, we have got to stop this bickering between Christians and agnostics/atheists on this forum. It is getting disgusting, tiresome and repetitive. As the man said "religiously tolerant America" that includes non religious folks. That also means religious folks leaving non religious people alone too. The point Ron Paul is trying to make is not so much separation of church and state but the idea that the church (which most Americans are Christians) play a more important role than government in their lives. For instance, instead of the government taking care of the needy churches do it. As an atheist I like that idea.

But at the same time I don't want to be treated like crap because I have become educated in the field of religion, early Christianity, philosophy and philosophy of religion and decided that it in my opinion is fiction.

This webforum is getting sadistic with its collectivist Christian vs atheist crap. I am tired of it. It is getting nothing accomplished. All of you just shut the hell up. If your Christian take solace in the idea Jesus is going to come back and fix everything. If you are atheist take solace in the fact that increasingly religion is being abandoned. But at any rate, all of it is just getting annoying.

[M House]

Not really, I checked out his "We the people bill" awhile back I'm disturbed at some of this line of thinking. I live in a state with ALOT of Religious laws. So I'm less than pleased with the idea of having them forced on me if they so choose.

[BlackTerrel]

This webforum is getting sadistic with its collectivist Christian vs atheist crap. I am tired of it. It is getting nothing accomplished. All of you just shut the hell up. If your Christian take solace in the idea Jesus is going to come back and fix everything. If you are atheist take solace in the fact that increasingly religion is being abandoned. But at any rate, all of it is just getting annoying.

Religion's not being abandoned. I'm Christian, so are most everyone I know. And I think about 80% of Americans define themselves as Christians last I checked.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world. You might not see it in the USA , but it is growing by leaps and bounds in places like Africa, and other countries. The communists who came over here 100 years ago have really done a good job demoralizing the USA. Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll..hmmm...and look where it's gotten us. Furthermore, it's 'trendy' to be an atheist. When christianity ...or the christians are gone from the USA...i hope you enjoy your total tyranny...because the Christians are the only tad bit of glue that is holding this country together. When we're gone...you can have your Babylon..but you won't like it.

Ron Paul , thankfully, is a Christian. The Founders were Christians. Amen. Tones

[PatriotOne]

I'm not suggesting anyone interfere with anyone's religion. That's what religious tolerance is all about.

See LE, that's the thing...a Christian calling for religous tolerance is so ironic to me considering the bible is all about religious intolerance. Your either with the Christian God or you are against the Christian God and aligned with Satan. I'd post quotes but that's pretty much what the whole bible is about.

[PatriotOne]

When christianity ...or the christians are gone from the USA...i hope you enjoy your total tyranny...because the Christians are the only tad bit of glue that is holding this country together.

Really? Let me be the first to congratulate you Christians for holding our country together by voting for Bush. Thanks bunches.

[LibertyEagle]

Really? Let me be the first to congratulate you Christians for holding our country together by voting for Bush. Thanks bunches.

Do you really want to play this game? What end does it serve? Do you think it serves the liberty movement?

[LibertyEagle]

See LE, that's the thing...a Christian calling for religous tolerance is so ironic to me considering the bible is all about religious intolerance. Your either with the Christian God or you are against the Christian God and aligned with Satan. I'd post quotes but that's pretty much what the whole bible is about.

Read this again.


The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.

[PatriotOne]

What exactly does Christians proclaiming to be the only people holding this country together got to do with the Liberty movement? Not only is that outright false, it is arrogant and divisive.

[LibertyEagle]

What exactly does Christians proclaiming to be the only people holding this country together got to do with the Liberty movement? Not only is that outright false, it is arrogant and divisive.

Agreed.

[PatriotOne]

Read this again.


What does that have to do with Christian intolerance of other religions?

[Truth Warrior]

The ENTIRE OP article CONTEXT IN FULL: < :rolleyes: >


The War on Religion
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD (http://www.house.gov/paul/mail/welcome.htm)




As we celebrate another Yuletide season, it’s hard not to notice that Christmas in America simply doesn’t feel the same anymore. Although an overwhelming majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, and those who don’t celebrate it overwhelmingly accept and respect our nation’s Christmas traditions, a certain shared public sentiment slowly has disappeared. The Christmas spirit, marked by a wonderful feeling of goodwill among men, is in danger of being lost in the ongoing war against religion.


Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view.


The justification is always that someone, somewhere, might possibly be offended or feel uncomfortable living in the midst of a largely Christian society, so all must yield to the fragile sensibilities of the few. The ultimate goal of the anti-religious elites is to transform America into a completely secular nation, a nation that is legally and culturally biased against Christianity.


This growing bias explains why many of our wonderful Christmas traditions have been lost. Christmas pageants and plays, including Handel’s Messiah, have been banned from schools and community halls. Nativity scenes have been ordered removed from town squares, and even criticized as offensive when placed on private church lawns. Office Christmas parties have become taboo, replaced by colorless seasonal parties to ensure no employees feel threatened by a “hostile environment.” Even wholly non-religious decorations featuring Santa Claus, snowmen, and the like have been called into question as Christmas symbols that might cause discomfort. Earlier this month, firemen near Chicago reluctantly removed Christmas decorations from their firehouse after a complaint by some embittered busybody. Most noticeably, however, the once commonplace refrain of “Merry Christmas” has been replaced by the vague, ubiquitous “Happy Holidays.” But what holiday? Is Christmas some kind of secret, a word that cannot be uttered in public? Why have we allowed the secularists to intimidate us into downplaying our most cherished and meaningful Christian celebration?


The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.


The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.



December 30, 2003


Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.



Ron Paul Archives (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul-arch.html)



Find this article at:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context) :p

It seems very clear and looks like Ron is correctly complaining about the various Amerikan GOVERNMENT'S "WAR ON RELIGION" to me.

Vote on "Christians". It's only some more of your extortion FRNs at work, on your behalf. :rolleyes:

[Andrew-Austin]

Religion's certainly do not mind being courted by the state, the power center of civilization, to war against non-believers. Nine times out of ten they will be swayed by the "ends justify the means" and "for the great good" arguments the state provides.

[fedup100]

I'm not suggesting anyone interfere with anyone's religion. That's what religious tolerance is all about.

http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles/Tolerance.htm

The question should be is religious tolerance taught in the Bible and why are Christians in America taught to be tolerant?

Why Is Israel not tolerant of other religions?

Why is the Muslim world not tolerant of other religions?

I can answer my own question. We, the Christian have allowed the public schools to corrupt our childrens minds so that they now believe a lie.

"Now we live in a world, where all divisions are being broken down. The great aim is to establish the global village, and bring about the One World Order. Therefore the divisions between nationalities, religions, cultures, and people must go. Anything and anybody who claims a definite identity or holds to unique and absolute values, is seen as an obstacle, and the greatest obstacle is our Lord Jesus Christ - because He is absolute and unique. He is God. He is the only Saviour of the world. This makes all true Christians, who will not compromise, an enemy of the New World Order. Therefore, for the new politics to succeed, Christianity and Christians must be silenced and outlawed, for they are regarded as divisive, unwilling to forsake their Lord of to give up their identity. "


Is God tolerant?

"I could not find a commandment which says: ”Thou shalt be tolerant.” So I asked myself: is God tolerant? In the First Commandment He says: ”I am the LORD your God... You shall have no other gods before me.” Throughout the Bible God makes it very plain that He will not give His glory to any other god. And David warned his son Solomon, saying: ”My son, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart, and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every plan and thought. If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off for ever.”

(1 Chron. 28:9) In the second Commandment, God says: ”I, the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing love to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments.” In other words, God is jealous. He is intolerant. He does not permit anyone to engage in religious worship not instituted by Himself.

The first 4 commandments make this very plain. He even forbids us to ”tolerate a false religion.” (Westminster Catechism). Any kind of idolatry has dire consequences. Paul says to the Christians of Corinth: ”Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?

What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ’I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.’ Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you. I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Cor. 6:14-18

Some people say: ”But we all pray to the same God!” - DO WE? No, we Christians worship the Triune God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is the only God, and His Son, Jesus, is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. The Jews do not acknowledge Jesus, and since God is revealed only through Jesus, their God is a different God. The Muslims worship Allah. They acknowledge Jesus as a prophet, but not as God, and so their god, too, is different from the true God.

Then people say: ”What does it matter, even if we cannot worship together, let us at least live by our common values.” But is there such a thing as common values? Admittedly other religions have laws against murder, theft and lies, but these only apply to themselves and can be broken at will with people of other religions. Among the Churches today it is fashionable to be tolerant and to join with other religions in their rites and prayers. For instance, at the inauguration of our state Presidents Mandela and Mbeki, both Christian and heathen priests officiated. But we must remember that God is not mocked. When we become too tolerant, when we deny the Triune God and reject Christianity, we commit religious and cultural suicide. Pagan religions will overwhelm and enslave us, and it will not take long before our freedoms are gone. For only where the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17

In Europe millions of Muslim immigrants are becoming ever more militant and boasting of the day when they will take over and establish their own harsh system, the Sharia Law. South Africa, too, is yielding to Muslims. Even though it has a very small Muslim community, a large proportion of them are already in leading positions. And since Muslims can be very aggressive, Christians tend to give way to them, keeping quiet and not speaking up. Therefore, while there is yet time, we must seek our God and pray: ”Have pity on Your people, LORD. Do not let other nations despise us and mock us by saying, ’Where is your God?’” Joel 2:17

http://www.ehow.com/about_4587497_does-bible-say-different-religions.html

"Both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible were completed before either Buddhism or Islam emerged as religions. They are not mentioned by name anywhere in the Bible, nor is Hinduism. However, the Bible makes an exclusive claim that there is only one God and that he is the one that the scriptures reveal. It also opposes any other religious system that either the Biblical Jews or early Christians encountered."

[M House]

When I read about this war on "religion" all I'm really seeing is some whinny Protestant Evangelical crap. In fact, it's only a select part of that group as well. Protestant dissidents have run the United States since it began, so of course they do now. Unless my life gets too exiting later today, I'm going to make a thread for these "Christians" to determine who among themselves they wanna exclude as well.

[hypnagogue]

There are 1000 different reasons to be anti-religious. Maybe a handful of them have anything to do with socialism or nationalism.

Maybe the religious should come to terms with the fact that their institutions are far less powerful than they used to be and only becoming more so. Not because of some government conspiracy to make it so, but because their ideas and practices are increasingly unpopular.

But hey, if you wanna get a taste of some real discrimination, try being an open Atheist.

[LibertyEagle]

I find it curious how much some of you are openly squirming in your seats, all because I posted Ron's view of what the Founders intended with regard to religion.

So, M House, are you calling Ron paul a "whinny (sic) Protestant Evangelical"? Do tell.


The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war. -- Ron Paul

[Deborah K]

I come from the Alabama. It's mostly hype. We have Anglican Churches, actually. The way I see he's both right and wrong if those are his actual words. Replace Christianity with Protestantism and the article would be alittle more fair. However, blame the politicians most of them are of that base.....supposedly.


What is the difference, in your mind, between a Christian and a Protestant?

[M House]

Ron Paul's being kinda whiny. He knows the history of Christmas and so do you. Also you have not made anything clear, but I'd guess you're of a very modern Protestant evangelical faith. If you were say a Jehova's Witness, many of the founders wouldn't have liked that either.

[M House]

What is the difference, in your mind, between a Christian and a Protestant?

Depends on the Protestant. However, they don't intrinsically like other Christians either. Some of the more modern forms have become much more tolerant. Others have not at all. You're going to have to name one if you want the specifics there's thousands of different types.

[LibertyEagle]

Ron Paul's being kinda whiny. He knows the history of Christmas and so do you. Also you have not made anything clear, but I'd guess you're of a very modern Protestant evangelical faith. If you were say a Jehova's Witness, many of the founders wouldn't have liked that either.

lol. No, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. Why the curiosity of what denomination I am? That fact has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread.

No, Ron Paul is not being whiny. He is speaking the truth. I hate it that you don't like it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.

[M House]

Cool well I'll just keep guessing until I get something. Cuz, I'm about 99 percent sure we can find an article from our amazing religiously tolerant founders like John Adams about their true thoughts on your beliefs.

[Deborah K]

Depends on the Protestant. However, they don't intrinsically like other Christians either. Some of the more modern forms have become much more tolerant. Others have not at all. You're going to have to name one if you want the specifics there's thousands of different types.


Protestants are non-Catholics. ALL are Christians. The name "Protestant" comes from the schism that took place during the time of Martin Luther, a monk who protested in the 1500's over the use of fees paid for dead loved ones who might be in purgatory. It was a money making scheme the Catholic church used to get the living to cough up for the dead to get them out of purgatory sooner. Those who agreed with Luther and left the Church became protestants, hence the name. Up until that time, Christianity was synonymous with Catholicism. All subsequent Christian religions are spawned from Protestantism. Catholicism is the original Christian religion.

[M House]

Um.....okay. So um what's your take on mainline vs. evangelical? Or perhaps Calvinism vs. Arminianism? Which Anglican Churches do you feel count as Protestant? How about Reform churches? How about the newer movements? Why do you feel Congregationalists have issues with Baptists? Um what about Orthodox religions?

[Dr.3D]

Catholicism is the original Christian religion.

Except for those who never accepted it and lived through the persecutions of the Catholic church. There is still a remnant who are true to the Christianity of the early church.

[Deborah K]

Um.....okay. So um what's your take on mainline vs. evangelical. Or perhaps Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Which Anglican Churches do you feel count as Protestant? How about Reform churches. How about the newer movements? Why do you feel Congregationalists have issues with Baptists? Um what about Orthodox religions?

It's not my take. It's historical fact. ALL non-Catholic Christian religions are protestant. ALL of them. As I mentioned all protestant religions, like the ones you mentioned, spawned from the schism.

[jkr]

"Catholicism is the original Christian religion"...what about first century christians & messianic hebrews?

[LibertyEagle]

Cool well I'll just keep guessing until I get something. Cuz, I'm about 99 percent sure we can find an article from our amazing religiously tolerant founders like John Adams about their true thoughts on your beliefs.

What is your deal and why the incessant attempt to make this personal?

When I was a small child, my mother, sister and I went to a Lutheran church. My father and brother went to a Presbyterian church. I have no idea why, except for possibly the fact that the pastor of the Presbyterian church lived on our street.

Later on I went to various churches. Baptist sometime and Methodist, others.

So, make of that what you will. Good luck. :rolleyes:

[Deborah K]

Except for those who never accepted it and lived through the persecutions of the Catholic church. There is still a remnant who are true to the Christianity of the early church.

Agreed. Like the Cathars.

[M House]

So the Orthodox churches are protestant? They're not gonna like that very much.

[Dr.3D]

ALL non-Catholic Christian religions are protestant. ALL of them.

I am Christian but neither protestant nor Catholic.

[Deborah K]

"Catholicism is the original Christian religion"...what about first century christians & messianic hebrews?


Actually, the word "Catholic" means universal. So, they would have been considered Catholic but not in the same sense that we think of it today.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

I am Christian but neither protestant nor Catholic.

I, too.

[M House]

What is your deal and why the incessant attempt to make this personal?

When I was a small child, my mother, sister and I went to a Lutheran church. My father and brother went to a Presbyterian church. I have no idea why, except for possibly the fact that the pastor of the Presbyterian church lived on our street.

Later on I went to various churches. Baptist sometime and Methodist, others.

So, make of that what you will. Good luck. :rolleyes:

Nope your belief set seems a bit different. However, I now see why you're trying to unite all these dissonant Protestants together against something silly. Well, I guess that's cool you have some diversity....there.

[Deborah K]

I am Christian but neither protestant nor Catholic.


Same here. Actually, I'm a recovering Catholic, hehe. I was speaking in generalities to MHouse regarding the history of the schism.

[M House]

Schism is a freaking euphemism for it. Catholic does not mean universal. You obviously have not recovered from anything.

[Dr.3D]

Catholic does not mean universal.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic


Etymology:
Middle English catholik, from Middle French & Late Latin; Middle French catholique, from Late Latin catholicus, from Greek katholikos universal, general, from katholou in general, from kata by + holos whole — more at cata-, safe
Date:
14th century
emphasis mine

[Sandra]

The church and Karl Marx's communist state competed for the same power over the people so of course he's going to hate it.


and the neo conservative found a way to infiltrate and exploit the church. So the church can be both an obstacle and a tool of control. Perhaps church members should be educated in their role as believers and ways their beliefs can be twisted so that good becomes evil and evil to good. Our former pastor taught that America was the land of God and nothing it does shall be questioned. Of course many of us recognized he was preaching from the belly of the beast.

[Deborah K]

Schism is a freaking euphemism for it. Catholic does not mean universal. You obviously have not recovered from anything.


Did I strike a nerve? You've resorted to hostility. Usually means you can't think of anything to back up your argument.

Schism: 1 : DIVISION : SPLIT; also : DISCORD : DISSENSION
2 : a formal division in or separation from a religious body

no euphemism. :rolleyes:

[Deborah K]

Catholic: [Middle English catholik, universally accepted, from Old French catholique, from Latin catholicus, universal, from Greek katholikos, from katholou, in general : kat-, kata-, down, along, according to; see cata– + holou (from neuter genitive of holos, whole).]

[M House]

Well guess I'm wrong about that. However, I'll have to remember the slightly different latin form and meaning which was why I got confused. -US was not the ending on it. I don't really care though. It's very inaccurate for the church to represent itself that way.

[Dr.3D]

Catholic: [Middle English catholik, universally accepted, from Old French catholique, from Latin catholicus, universal, from Greek katholikos, from katholou, in general : kat-, kata-, down, along, according to; see cata– + holou (from neuter genitive of holos, whole).]

LOL, see post #67. :)

[Deborah K]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic


emphasis mine


lol, sorry. I didn't see that you posted this.

[LibertyEagle]

Nope your belief set seems a bit different. However, I now see why you're trying to unite all these dissonant Protestants together against something silly. Well, I guess that's cool you have some diversity....there.

No, I'm not trying to unite anyone's faith. That is absolutely the wrong thing to say. I don't agree with a one-world religion, or anything even sounding like it.

What I believe is that it is each person's business to choose their faith, or none at all. For the life of me, I do not understand why so many on this forum cannot manage to keep their tongues in their mouth, but instead take every opportunity they can get to bash Christians. It's disgusting and if I didn't know that Ron Paul didn't fervently disagree with what some of you are doing, I would run away from this movement as fast as I could go.

This is where the rubber meets the road folks. If you cannot even manage to walk your talk, even amongst fellow RP supporters, then what hope do you have to do it anywhere else? Some of you HATE Christians so much you are dripping in venom. That's fine. Your choice. But, that sure exposes your hypocrisy in believing in liberty. Think about it. If Christians have done the same thing to you; shame on them. But don't turn all collectivistic and accuse everyone who is a Christian of doing the same. Remember that we're here too -- supporting Ron Paul and don't forget that Ron Paul himself is a Christian. Do you really hate all Christians so much?

[Dr.3D]

It's very inaccurate for the church to represent itself that way.

Well, if you wanted to be accepted as the 'one and only' church, wouldn't you name yourself that way too? :D

[Deborah K]

It's very inaccurate for the church to represent itself that way.

You, who have been on this earth for so short a time, and the Church, which has been here for over 2 millennia. You only think that way because you don't understand anything about religion, and you don't want to. You'd rather pass judgement.

[M House]

My bad I thought it is was something with whole or entirety. As you can see from the above why that would be. -OS not -US. However, the Romans want to have it that way it's cool.

[M House]

I don't hate Christians but I'm beginning to hate some Evangelical Protestant groups alot.

[Deborah K]

No, I'm not trying to unite anyone's faith. That is absolutely the wrong thing to say. I don't agree with a one-world religion, or anything even sounding like it.

What I believe is that it is each person's business to choose their faith, or none at all. For the life of me, I do not understand why so many on this forum cannot manage to keep their tongues in their mouth, but instead take every opportunity they can get to bash Christians. It's disgusting and if I didn't know that Ron Paul didn't fervently disagree with what some of you are doing, I would run away from this movement as fast as I could go.

This is where the rubber meets the road folks. If you cannot even manage to walk your talk, even amongst fellow RP supporters, then what hope do you have to do it anywhere else? Some of you HATE Christians so much you are dripping in venom. That's fine. Your choice. But, that sure exposes your hypocrisy in believing in liberty. Think about it. If Christians have done the same thing to you; shame on them. But don't turn all collectivistic and accuse everyone who is a Christian of doing the same. Remember that we're here too -- supporting Ron Paul and don't forget that Ron Paul himself is a Christian. Do you really hate all Christians so much?

+1

Oh, and didn't you know? The new politically correct targets are Christianity and white males, and God help you if you're a white male Christian. You can say whatever the hell you want about that group. But if you're in that group, you are the new target.

[M House]

That's so stupid it's not even funny. Look the government is run by mostly White Christian Males. Maybe you should elect some Muslims for once or someone who doesn't come from your church group.

[M House]

I guess if I'm scaring people away from your lets control the religion of this country movement, this will be the end. Obama is UCC or United Church of Christ. This is a devote Protestant faith. I assume it's classified as Congregationalist. So he should do fine by your standards.

[Deborah K]

That's so stupid it's not even funny. Look the government is run by mostly White Christian Males. Maybe you should elect some Muslims for once or someone who doesn't come from your church group.

As I have told you in another thread, my religious beliefs are unorthodox. I don't have a 'church group'. I don't belong to any religious sect. Your ignorance is so stupid it's not even funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opxuUj6vFa4

this isn't even the half of it.

[Deborah K]

And I would never in a million years elect someone based solely on their gender, race, religion, or anything else. What an asinine thing to say.

[PatriotOne]

[QUOTE]What I believe is that it is each person's business to choose their faith, or none at all.

Your not a Christian then. Tolerance of other religions is not exactly encouraged in the bible...lol. Why you identify with Christianity is beyond me. Or is Christianity 3.0 coming out soon and it is going to be in style to tolerate other religions? Or have you been deceived by Satan?

[Deborah K]

[QUOTE=LibertyEagle;1930275]



Your not a Christian then. Tolerance of other religions is not exactly encouraged in the bible...lol. Why you identify with Christianity is beyond me. Or is Christianity 3.0 coming out soon and it is going to be in style to tolerate other religions? Or have you been deceived by Satan?


Really? The first 5 books of the Old Testament - are from the Torah. The old testament was written by Jews. Christ was a Jew. Show me where there is religious intolerance in the bible?

[LibertyEagle]

Your not a Christian then.
Yes, I am. Self-admittedly, a poor one at times.


Tolerance of other religions is not exactly encouraged in the bible...lol. Why you identify with Christianity is beyond me. Or is Christianity 3.0 coming out soon and it is going to be in style to tolerate other religions? Or have you been deceived by Satan?
With all due respect, PatriotOne, you don't understand the bible. It is just words to you, with no historical perspective.

You certainly have a lot of hate pent up in you, don't you? It's very sad.

[LibertyEagle]

I guess if I'm scaring people away from your lets control the religion of this country movement, this will be the end. Obama is UCC or United Church of Christ. This is a devote Protestant faith. I assume it's classified as Congregationalist. So he should do fine by your standards.

WHAT "lets control the religion of this country movement"? Do you honestly believe that is what this movement that Ron Paul launched is all about?

Why all this venom? I guess it's good it's coming out, so we can try to get to the bottom of this. Maybe if we can, we can put all the pot shots that are being made on this forum to rest, once and for all.

Go ahead.

[PatriotOne]

Yes, I am. Self-admittedly, a poor one at times.


With all due respect, PatriotOne, you don't understand the bible. It is just words to you, with no historical perspective.


Are you saying the Christian God has said it's okay to worship other Gods and to be tolerant of them? I must of missed that in the bible. Care to give me chapter and verse on that?

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

No, I'm not trying to unite anyone's faith. That is absolutely the wrong thing to say. I don't agree with a one-world religion, or anything even sounding like it.

What I believe is that it is each person's business to choose their faith, or none at all. For the life of me, I do not understand why so many on this forum cannot manage to keep their tongues in their mouth, but instead take every opportunity they can get to bash Christians. It's disgusting and if I didn't know that Ron Paul didn't fervently disagree with what some of you are doing, I would run away from this movement as fast as I could go.

This is where the rubber meets the road folks. If you cannot even manage to walk your talk, even amongst fellow RP supporters, then what hope do you have to do it anywhere else? Some of you HATE Christians so much you are dripping in venom. That's fine. Your choice. But, that sure exposes your hypocrisy in believing in liberty. Think about it. If Christians have done the same thing to you; shame on them. But don't turn all collectivistic and accuse everyone who is a Christian of doing the same. Remember that we're here too -- supporting Ron Paul and don't forget that Ron Paul himself is a Christian. Do you really hate all Christians so much?

Far be it from me to dispute a moderator who starts his own flame wa.. battle, but it seems to me there is a misunderstanding here. I don't think that most of the posters on RPFs who would be collectively categorized as "anti-Christian" actually hate the people who would be collectively categorized as "Christian". From my point of view, it is not the people they hate, but the ideology. I think non-Christians view the faith in the same light as mind control, conformity, and basically any other method of psychological violence that can be inflicted upon a human being.

To make the point clear ---- It's not the person, it's the ideas.

The confusion occurs when people identify with their thoughts. They believe that their thoughts are who they are. Ironically, it is these very thoughts which "believe". Jesus spoke of an eternal soul. Something that was not of the body but of the Father. Yet, we find ourselves in these thought arguments about things, about thoughts, that are not us. They consume us and call us to conflict. But they themselves cannot be dissolved by conflict, because they only exist in conflict. To put it in simpler words.....

"I" do not hate the young man who was lied to by those he loved and trusted. "I" don't hate "him" even though he willingly fell into step, adorned himself with the symbols of what "he" was taught, and followed "his" orders. "He" only wanted to do what was right.

Just as I don't blame an alcoholic for being an alcoholic, a Nazi a Nazi, a Jew a Jew, an Atheist an Atheist, a Christian a Christian, or a person with cancer for growing that cancer, I don't blame people for having thoughts. Thoughts can be controlled only at the expense of mental well being. Your reactions to these thoughts are all that matters. They will either lord over your life, or be as clouds in the sky. It is thoughts that we think are so solid that allow us to judge ourselves and others, which are one and the same.

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


In other words, I disagree with Ron Paul. His fight for liberty has inspired me. He has opened my eyes to so many things. But he is just a man with more ideas and more thoughts. I am not required to embrace all of them.

[Dieseler]

My fellow Christian Brothers and Sisters.
You waste your time and only harm yourselves when you stoop to argue with those who do not believe.
It is not your mission to provide proofs or show them miracles of God but only the word of God.
These people you argue with know where the Word is and they reject it with venom.
Leave them be for your own sake lest you be infected with the same spirit of hate.
Your antagonists here are not a lost tribe of heathens in a remote country.
They know where to find the word of God if they so desire.
Leave them be.

[mellamojuana]

I'm surprised that no one picked up on the "church in check" idea back on p. 2 (?).

If the church, in general, as many people, Christian and otherwise, describe it, is a "sleeping giant," what is the great need to keep it in check? It/We might not wake up for another decade or three.

Generalizing anger (which often results from being hurt) toward a particular religious group doesn't always work. Someone, sometime, will simply be an individual and not fit in a "People Not to Like" list.

To be Christian does not mean to be perfect. I hope that it often means that we have come to increased awareness and to wonderful "Aha" experiences.

I could be wrong--I frequently am--but I believe God is far more inclusive than any of us is apt to be. I believe all people who sincerely choose to give their lives over to a Good Divinity ultimately worship the same One. I just think there are multiple paths and myriad emphases, and therefore, scads of groups of somewhat like-minded persons within virtually all "religions."

If I had to be stranded with a G-overnment first-Person, or a G-od first-Person, I would probably take my chances with the latter. I read Ron Paul as saying that people ought to be able to feel free to be people of "The Way," rather than being forced by government dictates to be apologetic for being who they are.

Selah. :D

[Sandra]

What would Jesus do? ....Not force his view down someone's throat.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

What would Jesus do? ....Not force his view down someone's throat.

"If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." Luke 16:31

[tonesforjonesbones]

Jesus said No one gets to the Father but by Me. Take that as you will. Christians aren't really even supposed to be hanging out with non believers...so the tolerance thing is kinda out the window. The New Testament was letters written to churches....the followers of Christ...The Way...the Brothers...there were alot of women in the movement though. Truth be told. we are supposed to stay away from non believers. (the Bible said GOD will take care of the non believers) Tones

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

Jesus said No one gets to the Father but by Me. Take that as you will. Christians aren't really even supposed to be hanging out with non believers...so the tolerance thing is kinda out the window. The New Testament was letters written to churches....the followers of Christ...The Way...the Brothers...there were alot of women in the movement though. Truth be told. we are supposed to stay away from non believers. (the Bible said GOD will take care of the non believers) Tones

Ladies and Gentleman, I give you..... Intolerance!


On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him,"
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

[tonesforjonesbones]

I'm merely telling you what Jesus said. Other people live in the world..but the Bible says...avoid them. tones

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

I'm merely telling you what Jesus said. Other people live in the world..but the Bible says...avoid them. tones

show me

[Pennsylvania]

show me


14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
- 2 Corinthians 6:14-15

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
- 2 Corinthians 6:14-15

ok, Now show me where Jesus said something like that.

[Pennsylvania]

ok, Now show me where Jesus said something like that.

You, my friend, have said exactly the right thing.

[fedup100]

show me

I am pointing out that if GOD said it Jesus said it for GOD does not change...................



THE SIN OF TOLERATING EVIL

What peace do we have with non believers? "And what concord (harmony) hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel (nonbeliever)? Being in harmony with non believers is just as if Jesus were in harmony with the devil.



http://www.bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html


Jesus Christ IS God Incarnate!

"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
--MATTHEW 1:23

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”


Malachi 3:6 God affirms, "I the Lord do not change."



Three of the BIG 10!

Exodus 20:3–5

3 Do not have any other gods before me. Notice it says ME, not you. He dwells in the land and in the body of his Church, he will not tolerate other heathens and Idols in his presence!

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,


http://heartoftn.net/users/gary27/SinOf.htm

“But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils” (1Corinthians 10:20-21).

Because some in our society would like to see all religions worship together, they want Christians to tolerate falsehood and condone those who contradict God’s Word. However, that would not be the loving thing to do, for the Bible makes it perfectly clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. If we deny that fact (by our tolerance of false religion) souls could be lost (Acts 4:12). In fact, we could not even be true to our God if we refused to condemn false gods, for God is not about to tolerate false gods. He never has, and He never will! As far as He is concerned, those who regard Him as one God among many are idolaters, no matter how tolerant they appear to be (2Kings 17:6-35).


When the children of Israel first entered the land of Cannan, God ordered the people of that land destroyed because they were tolerant of human sacrifice (abortion), immorality, and false religion (Deuteronomy 20:17). Some time later, God’s wrath was poured out on the children of Benjamin because they had become tolerant of evil (Judges 19:22-30 and 20:1-48). The Apostle Paul rebuked the congregation at Corinth because it tolerated fornication, and he pronounced a curse on those who pervert the gospel (1Corinthians 5:1-13, Galatians 1:6-9). Therefore, it should be perfectly clear that we are not to tolerate sin, but are rather to condemn and rebuke it.

Since every false religion has been brought into existence by Satan, he could care less which one people follow, just as long as they follow one of them (Leviticus 17:7, 1Corinthians 10:20). At the same time, he wants to sow strife and disunity among Christians, while creating an atmosphere in which those who want peace can be led to tolerate soul destroying error. Therefore, he is delighted when Christians fall for the idea that it is wrong to condemn evil.

[M House]

Wow....

[M House]

Along time ago there was some sorta heretic called Pelagius. When, I had to look through some stuff related to English Literature I came across him. He challenged Augustine or something. Not much is around but here's a link offa wiki.

http://www.seanmultimedia.com/Pie_Pelagius_Defense_Of_The_Freedom_Of_The_Will.ht ml

Anyway, what's the deal?

[fedup100]

What would Jesus do? ....Not force his view down someone's throat.

When you are the GOD of the universe you will force what needs to be forced.

Pharisees [(far-uh-seez)]

A group of teachers among the Jews at the time of Jesus; he frequently rebukes them in the Gospels for their hypocrisy. Jesus says they are like “the blind leading the blind,” or like “whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.”

Below, Jesus forced this down their throats:

John 8:42-47

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

They were the Talmudic cult and they are the ones that had him killed. He broke up there Federal Reserve system that was operating in the Temple and physically whipped them with a whip.

[M House]

Pelagius was part of the church, itself. He presented what was actually one of many different counter viewpoints at the time. And from what I understand he was one of many people silenced in the beginning of its history. Obviously, he wasn't gonna be around for long.

[AggieforPaul]

You're missing the point, Brassmouth. A lot of the higher ups that have pushed secularism and humanism have done so for a purpose. The goal is to remove religion, predominantly Christianity, so that people will not have anything coming between their allegiance to the state. This has happened in country after country, before the downfall. It's all part of the agenda.

It doesn't mean that you have to believe in Christ. That's what religious tolerance is all about. It also works in the other direction, you know. In that, you should be tolerant of others who do believe in a higher being.

Why is it that some of you guys can see conspiracies in everything coming around the corner, but you cannot see this real one. Or is it that you hate Christ and those who believe in Him so much, that you just won't admit it?

5 Stars.

[M House]

Negative 5 stars for she pretends to even know Brassmouth's views on Christ. I have not seen him say "I hate Christ" once. If you can find it in one of his posts go ahead.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Some of you HATE Christians so much you are dripping in venom. That's fine. Your choice. But, that sure exposes your hypocrisy in believing in liberty.

But the same is true in reverse. There are a number of posters on this forum who have attacked those who are agnostic or atheist, calling them immoral, depraved etc. Ive been repeatedly insulted because I'm a Deist by Christian posters who are intolerant collectivist douchebags masquerading as RPers. There are alot of people who post here who only give lip service to the idea of 'freedom'.

[M House]

Whatever, the founder's hated Deism bad just check out that thread in the off-topic forum. I mean it has great quotes from amazingly graceful individuals like John Adams.

[M House]

Check it out it's a good example of the founders not getting along. Shows alot of tolerance really....

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173113

[fedup100]

But the same is true in reverse. There are a number of posters on this forum who have attacked those who are agnostic or atheist, calling them immoral, depraved etc. Ive been repeatedly insulted because I'm a Deist by Christian posters who are intolerant collectivist douchebags masquerading as RPers. There are alot of people who post here who only give lip service to the idea of 'freedom'.


Having ones "feelings" hurt by any one that communicates their feelings regarding your beliefs or life style is the engine that is driving your loss of freedom.

Our founding fathers said ALL our rights (freedom ) come from GOD. Without the Christian belief and it's guiding laws and morals, there would be no freedom.

Freedom of speech is paramount in a free a nation. We as a people need to get over our "hurt feeling" and recognize how this is being used to rob us of our GOD given rights.

[M House]

That's not what all our founders said look again at the words of the Declaration of Independence. And the constitution doesn't reference God or a Creator or anything else.

[LibertyEagle]

Negative 5 stars for she pretends to even know Brassmouth's views on Christ. I have not seen him say "I hate Christ" once. If you can find it in one of his posts go ahead.

Nor, did I say he did. Did you see the question mark at the end of the sentence?

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Our founding fathers said ALL our rights (freedom ) come from GOD. Without the Christian belief and it's guiding laws and morals, there would be no freedom.

You asshat, belief in God is NOT dependent upon being Christian. I'm sick and fucking TIRED of people intimating I'm an Atheist! I'm NOT! Deism is NOT Atheism!

[heavenlyboy34]

But the same is true in reverse. There are a number of posters on this forum who have attacked those who are agnostic or atheist, calling them immoral, depraved etc. Ive been repeatedly insulted because I'm a Deist by Christian posters who are intolerant collectivist douchebags masquerading as RPers. There are alot of people who post here who only give lip service to the idea of 'freedom'.

qft. :(

[M House]

You asshat, belief in God is NOT dependent upon being Christian. I'm sick and fucking TIRED of people intimating I'm an Atheist! I'm NOT! Deism is NOT Atheism!

This is what happens when you give your freedoms over to some people. Even the church. They will determine what you believe for you.

[fedup100]

That's not what all our founders said look again at the words of the Declaration of Independence. And the constitution doesn't reference God or a Creator or anything else.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited.... What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adam


"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster

"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." - Andrew Jackson

"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed." - Noah Webster

"We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

"He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin

"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

[LibertyEagle]

When you are the GOD of the universe you will force what needs to be forced.

Pharisees [(far-uh-seez)]

A group of teachers among the Jews at the time of Jesus; he frequently rebukes them in the Gospels for their hypocrisy. Jesus says they are like “the blind leading the blind,” or like “whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.”

Below, Jesus forced this down their throats:

John 8:42-47

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

They were the Talmudic cult and they are the ones that had him killed. He broke up there Federal Reserve system that was operating in the Temple and physically whipped them with a whip.

Yeah, Fedup, but WE are not God.

Personally, I am not trying to force God down anyone's throat. Nor am I going to. Instead, I'm going to respect that they have made the their own decision. Whatever it may be. Either we all learn to respect each other and figure out how to work together in this movement towards the goals that we DO share, or we will remain here, ripping each other to shreds, as our country finishes falling off the cliff.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

this is the problem with fundamentalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism).

Fundamentalism is a soft word for extremism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremism).

I think FedUp's post has shown us the not so bright side of the Christian argument. The "non-tolerant" argument in favor of Christianity.

George W. Bush - "If you are not with us, you are with the terrorists."

Jesus H? Christ - "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

of course you then have Jesus saying, ...

"Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall."

and the infamous...

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."

and if in the Beginning the Word was with God, was God, and became flesh, then why would the "Word" in the flesh contradict the "Word" received via prophecy?



Matthew 15
Clean and Unclean
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!

3 Jesus replied, And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

4 For God said, 'Honour your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'

5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'

6 he is not to 'honour his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:



8'These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'



10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, Listen and understand.

11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean', but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean'.

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?

13 He replied, Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.

15 Peter said, Explain the parable to us.

16 Are you still so dull? Jesus asked them.

17 Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?

18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean'.

19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

20 These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean'.

[LibertyEagle]

This is what happens when you give your freedoms over to some people. Even the church. They will determine what you believe for you.

What? :confused:

No one that I see is advocating we turn over our freedoms to the church. :eek: Far from it. That is one of the reasons why this country was founded, in fact.

[fedup100]

You asshat, belief in God is NOT dependent upon being Christian. I'm sick and fucking TIRED of people intimating I'm an Atheist! I'm NOT! Deism is NOT Atheism!

No, it's not. You can believe a stump is is a god. Should you believe in the GOD of the bible, then you would be considered a Christian. :)

[M House]

I'll just give props to the heretic Pelagius. Augustine, you're translating it wrong. Was there really a guy who said that?

[LibertyEagle]

qft. :(

Very true. There are some here who love to quote Fabian Socialists. There are even those who follow along afterwards lapping at the feet of those who quote them. ;)

[heavenlyboy34]

Very true. There are some here who love to quote Fabian Socialists. There are even those who follow along afterwards lapping at the feet of those who quote them. ;)

women! :rolleyes:

[M House]

After calling out and insinuating many of us hate Christ with your cleverly worded question, I'm not really impressed you're trying to pacify the situation.

[Dieseler]

Nor, did I say he did. Did you see the question mark at the end of the sentence?

He doesn't use those punctuation things much LE. I wouldn't expect him to notice when you do just yet. It seems to be a work in progress.
On the bright side he is at least sticking to shorter more readable posts tonight.
Thats a plus in my book.
:D

[LibertyEagle]

After calling out and insinuating many of us hate Christ with your cleverly worded question. I'm not really impressed your trying to pacify the situation.

First of all, I'm not trying to impress you. I could care less. :)

Secondly, some people in this forum DO hate Christ and anyone who believes in Him. Whether you are one of them, I have no idea.

You are missing the point again. But, you knew that.

[M House]

My fellow Christian Brothers and Sisters.
You waste your time and only harm yourselves when you stoop to argue with those who do not believe.
It is not your mission to provide proofs or show them miracles of God but only the word of God.
These people you argue with know where the Word is and they reject it with venom.
Leave them be for your own sake lest you be infected with the same spirit of hate.
Your antagonists here are not a lost tribe of heathens in a remote country.
They know where to find the word of God if they so desire.
Leave them be.

Okay, um maybe I was wrong at the intent but you didn't respond so great either.

[Dieseler]

After calling out and insinuating many of us hate Christ with your cleverly worded question. I'm not really impressed you're trying to pacify the situation.

After calling out and insinuating many of us hate Christ with your cleverly worded question (Comma goes here.)I'm not really impressed you're trying to pacify the situation.
:D

[PatriotOne]

Either we all learn to respect each other and figure out how to work together in this movement towards the goals that we DO share, or we will remain here, ripping each other to shreds, as our country finishes falling off the cliff.

Your not suppose to be associating with non-christians LE. It makes you a partaker of our evil deeds.

2 John

1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. "Whosoever ... abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God."

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[dirknb@hotmail.com]

Can somebody show me where the Constitution not only mentions God, but what makes it "replete with references" to God? The Declaration of Independence only mentions God a few time and certainly isn't "replete with references". And, for the record, I believe in God and I'm a fan of RP. I just think RP was making a bit of a stretch here, to put it nicely.

Main Entry: re·plete http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?replet01.wav=replete')) Pronunciation: \ri-ˈplēt\ Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French replet, from Latin repletus, past participle of replēre to fill up, from re- + plēre to fill — more at full (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/full) Date: 14th century 1: fully or abundantly provided or filled <a book replete with…delicious details — William Safire>2 a: abundantly fed b: fat (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fat) , stout (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stout)3: complete (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/complete) synonyms see full (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/full)

[TER]

Protestants are non-Catholics. ALL are Christians. The name "Protestant" comes from the schism that took place during the time of Martin Luther, a monk who protested in the 1500's over the use of fees paid for dead loved ones who might be in purgatory. It was a money making scheme the Catholic church used to get the living to cough up for the dead to get them out of purgatory sooner. Those who agreed with Luther and left the Church became protestants, hence the name. Up until that time, Christianity was synonymous with Catholicism. All subsequent Christian religions are spawned from Protestantism. Catholicism is the original Christian religion.

False. You are forgetting the Orthodox Church which the Catholic Church split from. ;)

[TER]

Except for those who never accepted it and lived through the persecutions of the Catholic church. There is still a remnant who are true to the Christianity of the early church.

True. The Orthodox Church. :)

[M House]

Um, I mentioned that and they told me I was wrong. Hopefully, you'll fair alittle better.

[TER]

Schism is a freaking euphemism for it. Catholic does not mean universal. You obviously have not recovered from anything.

Catholic mean "of the whole", referring to the Christian Church which was unified prior to the Great Schism.

[M House]

That's what I thought it meant as well. I mean I took up to Latin III in high school, and I could not understand why it meant universal. O well, I guess that makes sense.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

Your not suppose to be associating with non-christians LE. It makes you a partaker of our evil deeds.

2 John

1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. "Whosoever ... abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God."

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

So based on your beliefs, should non-Christians leave the freedom movement?

[fedup100]

this is the problem with fundamentalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism).

Fundamentalism is a soft word for extremism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremism).

Defining a Christian that believes the word of GOD is true as an extremist is a soft form of an insult. But I will defend your right to insult me and the word of GOD.

I think FedUp's post has shown us the not so bright side of the Christian argument. The "non-tolerant" argument in favor of Christianity.

I quoted the word of GOD. The problem with man is he has always proclaimed to know more than GOD. I make no apologize for the word of GOD. This attitude is why people will be imprisoned in this country as is now happening in Canada someday for quoting scripture that hurts someone's feelings.

George W. Bush - "If you are not with us, you are with the terrorists."

Jesus H? Christ - "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

I can't see comparing "W" to Jesus.

of course you then have Jesus saying, ...

"Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall."

and the infamous...

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."

This scripture is telling you why there is so much contention on this subject. GOD knew he and his word would be rejected by most people in the end and the Christian killing will begin.

and if in the Beginning the Word was with God, was God, and became flesh, then why would the "Word" in the flesh contradict the "Word" received via prophecy?

I am not sure about that last part, it would seem you are saying that Jesus has contradicted God the father. I don't see in your post that part, but either way, I see your argument is going in the direction that Jesus was not GOD ( the GOD head argument or the Trinity argument) and the word of God is in error.

Unless you can believe there is a true word of GOD, you can never be grounded in your faith. Unless you can come to realize that GOD is all powerful or omnipotent, you won't believe he has the ability to provide you with the truth. Without these basic beliefs, one could not truly believe in GOD.

Again, since the Word is God, I can assure you he, GOD has placed his true Word on this earth for all of mankind to make his own decisions as far as choosing him are turning away from him.

I have to say, I am a bit confused about your posts. You will defend GOD and the Christian religion on one post and then display a total lack of understanding coupled with distain for GODS word in another.

[TER]

no matter who you are or what your beliefs are, the desire for freedom is in every person simply because our Creator endowed us with free will. The human striving for freedom transcends all human institutions and belief systems. It is the very image of God within every one of us.

[PatriotOne]

First of all, I'm not trying to impress you. I could care less. :)

Secondly, some people in this forum DO hate Christ and anyone who believes in Him. Whether you are one of them, I have no idea.



Hate is a pretty strong word considering God, as portrayed in the bible, doesn't exist. But consider this. How would you feel if my religion condemned you to burning in hell because you didn't believe in Sasquatch? Would you hate me? Would you hate Sasquatch? Or would you think me pathetic? Now let's say in real life we had the Sasquatch Crusades and killed millions of non-Sasquatch believers and forced the others who survived to convert or suffer the same consequence. How would you feel then? Would you hate our Sasquatch God? Would you hate the people who believed in the Sasquatch God? I could put a Sasquatch God bible together using the texts of accounts from people who have seen him. There's a lot more of them than those who wrote about Jesus.

[heavenlyboy34]

no matter who you are or what your beliefs are, the desire for freedom is in every person simply because our Creator endowed us with free will. The human striving for freedom transcends all human institutions and belief systems. It is the very image of God within every one of us.

Then from where does the drive to be a tyrant or a serf come? :eek:;)

[TER]

Hate is a pretty strong word considering God, as portrayed in the bible, doesn't exist.

So you say and so you believe. Can you prove to me He doesn't?

[TER]

Then from where does the drive to be a tyrant or a serf come? :eek:;)

The drive to be a tyrant is from the devil.
The drive to be a serf is from fear.

[PatriotOne]

So based on your beliefs, should non-Christians leave the freedom movement?

I'm not a Christian so the rules do not apply to me. I can associate with anyone I wish, including Christians. They are Christian rules so according to their God, they shouldn't be associating with me. Just pointing that out because I don't want to be the cause of any Christians burning in hell forever.

[PatriotOne]

So you say and so you believe. Can you prove to me He doesn't?

Can you prove my Sasquatch God doesn't exist?

[M House]

Jeez, we are making them doomed to suffer eternally. I mean they already blame me for enough. That's a bit too heavy for me.....

[TER]

Can you prove my Sasquatch God doesn't exist?

No I can not. But would you die for your belief that Sasquatch exists?

[fedup100]

Yeah, Fedup, but WE are not God.

Personally, I am not trying to force God down anyone's throat. Nor am I going to. Instead, I'm going to respect that they have made the their own decision. Whatever it may be. Either we all learn to respect each other and figure out how to work together in this movement towards the goals that we DO share, or we will remain here, ripping each other to shreds, as our country finishes falling off the cliff.

You are right, I am not GOD. I am a Christian though attempting to show those who ask, what the word does say about a certain subject, such as this one. I get the distinct opinion you feel I am trying to force what I believe down our tender members throats. I am not. I believe as you, people must make their own decision.

I ask you though, how can they make an accurate decision involving such an important subject if they have never heard the true word of GOD? Now, should the argument turn to, there is no true word of GOD, then the devil has his nose in the tent.
:confused:

[fedup100]

I'm not a Christian so the rules do not apply to me. I can associate with anyone I wish, including Christians. They are Christian rules so according to their God, they shouldn't be associating with me. Just pointing that out because I don't want to be the cause of any Christians burning in hell forever.

This verse just means that if you as a Christian have shown the gospel to the unbeliever and they have rejected it and wish to continue in their ways, then the Christian would be wise to walk away. If not, the sinning nature of, well say you, could rub off on them and cause them to miss the boat literally.

On the other hand, most of the major other religions do not operate in this manner, they just cut your head off. :eek:

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

I'm not a Christian so the rules do not apply to me. I can associate with anyone I wish, including Christians. They are Christian rules so according to their God, they shouldn't be associating with me. Just pointing that out because I don't want to be the cause of any Christians burning in hell forever.

so then I pose the question to any Christians in here.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

This verse just means that if you as a Christian have shown the gospel to the unbeliever and they have rejected it and wish to continue in their ways, then the Christian would be wise to walk away. If not, the sinning nature of, well say you, could rub off on them and cause them to miss the boat literally.

On the other hand, most of the major other religions do not operate in this manner, they just cut your head off. :eek:

no. they don't.

[TER]

So based on your beliefs, should non-Christians leave the freedom movement?


no matter who you are or what your beliefs are, the desire for freedom is in every person simply because our Creator endowed us with free will. The human striving for freedom transcends all human institutions and belief systems. It is the very image of God within every one of us.

The fight for freedom is one all children of God struggle for, for those who believe and those who do not. Of course non-Christians should not leave the freedom movement. In fact, they wouldn't leave even if they were asked/forced to.

[fedup100]

no. they don't.

Your right, they just kill you should you choose to no longer believe. I could not find an article that showed the Christians killing people who decided to not believe and leave the Christian religion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christian-in-Iran.html

Hanged for being a Christian in Iran
Eighteen years ago, Rashin Soodmand's father was hanged in Iran for converting to Christianity. Now her brother is in a Mashad jail, and expects to be executed under new religious laws brought in this summer. Alasdair Palmer reports.


"Freedom of religion does not exist in Saudi Arabia." For many years, Christians have been flogged, imprisoned im·pris·on
tr.v. im·pris·oned, im·pris·on·ing, im·pris·ons
To put in or as if in prison; confine.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Martyred:+Muslim+murder+and+mayhem+against+Christi ans-a080099512

[Middle English emprisonen, from Old French emprisoner : en- , and executed by a Saudi government that prohibits non-Muslim worship even in private homes. A Muslim who converts to another religion is subject to the death penalty by beheading.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/19/orissa-violence-india-christianity-hinduism

Convert or we will kill you, Hindu lynch mobs tell fleeing Christians
As a fresh wave of sectarian violence is unleashed across the Indian state of Orissa, Gethin Chamberlain talks to homeless survivors in Kandhamal district who were forced to abandon their religion

http://www.talmudunmasked.com/chapter15.htm

CHRISTIANS TO BE HARMED DIRECTLY

Lastly, the Talmud commands that Christians are to be killed without mercy. In the Abhodah Zarah (26b) it says:


http://www.cc-vw.org/articles/antimissionbill.htm

Anti Missionary Law Will Ban Christian Witness in Israel

"Anyone who preaches with the purpose of causing another person to change his religion is liable to three years imprisonment or a fine of NIS 50,000 (£9,000)"

[M House]

Um have you really put that little effort into it?

[BlackTerrel]

Really? Let me be the first to congratulate you Christians for holding our country together by voting for Bush. Thanks bunches.

When you're trying to draw support for your cause do you really think bashing the religion of 80% of Americans is a good idea.

I'm a Christian and I could say more, but I'll just say let it go. It's not a fight you want.

[M House]

Well he's probably exaggerating a bit since even if only Christians voted for him it would've been only half of you.

[Dieseler]

When you're trying to draw support for your cause do you really think bashing the religion of 80% of Americans is a good idea.

I'm a Christian and I could say more, but I'll just say let it go. It's not a fight you want.

I've been saying that for over a year here now.
They don't get it.
Damn, I just agreed with you on something.

[theoakman]

part of the problem has been the "evangelical vote". Honestly, if we want to reform this country, we cannot allow these voter bases to undermine our causes. Besides, the Democrats have no chance in hell of grabbing the evangelical vote. We would be better off trying to convert democrats than aligning ourselves with religious fanatics.

[M House]

Um Evangelical Protestant groups are extremely common. I didn't realize that until I looked up the actual numbers. You will not get anywhere without them.

[Dieseler]

Um Evangelical Protestant groups are extremely common. I didn't realize that until I looked up the actual numbers. You will not get anywhere without them.

You live in Alabama and you're just now figuring that out?

[M House]

I thought it was just a southern thing.

[PatriotOne]

The drive to be a tyrant is from the devil.
The drive to be a serf is from fear.

Revelations 2

2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

[PatriotOne]

No I can not. But would you die for your belief that Sasquatch exists?

That's exactly what makes Christianity so dangerous. They are manipulated by Government into killing innocent people for their God.

[Truth Warrior]

That's exactly what makes Christianity so dangerous. They are manipulated by Government into killing innocent people for their God. ;)

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

[PatriotOne]

[QUOTE]This verse just means that if you as a Christian have shown the gospel to the unbeliever and they have rejected it and wish to continue in their ways, then the Christian would be wise to walk away. If not, the sinning nature of, well say you, could rub off on them and cause them to miss the boat literally.

You are spinning it to make it reasonable but he doesn't use words like "I suggest" or "should". I can read. He is telling you that you are guilty by association with a non-believer.


On the other hand, most of the major other religions do not operate in this manner, they just cut your head off.

Too messy for Christians nowadays. They prefer germ warfare and sterilizing the heathens by stealth instead.

[PatriotOne]

When you're trying to draw support for your cause do you really think bashing the religion of 80% of Americans is a good idea.

I'm a Christian and I could say more, but I'll just say let it go. It's not a fight you want.

I have yet to meet a Christian who is really a Christian. Your bible makes it impossible to be a Christian without entering the major spin zone of those who are still desperately propping up all the absurdities in the bible. If your bible were true, none of you are going to heaven anyways so why fight for a God that has condemned you to burning in hell? How many one-eyed, one handed Christians do you know?

Matthew

5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[Pennsylvania]

I have yet to meet a Christian who is really a Christian. Your bible makes it impossible to be a Christian without entering the major spin zone of those who are still desperately propping up all the absurdities in the bible.


Jefferson Bible ftw!

[worl]

The fight for freedom is one all children of God struggle for, for those who believe and those who do not. Of course non-Christians should not leave the freedom movement. In fact, they wouldn't leave even if they were asked/forced to.
Any non religious person that is here to promote the war on religion should leave because they are not promoting freedom. All of us here should have one common intrest & that is freedom. If you hate religious people or athiest, then you are not a lover of freedom & you hurt our cause.

[heavenlyboy34]

;)

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

;)

[Truth Warrior]

Any non religious person that is here to promote the war on religion should leave because they are not promoting freedom. All of us here should have one common intrest & that is freedom. If you hate religious people or athiest, then you are not a lover of freedom & you hurt our cause.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[TER]

Revelations 2

2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

I fear you are taking things out of context here if you think these passages suggest one should become a tyrant. As a non-Christian, it is probably best if you leave the Book of Revelation alone since it is a book you may not understand and most likely misinterpret. (This would apply to Christians as well. And this is not my opinion, but the opinion of the Orthodox Church)

[TER]

Originally Posted by TodaysEpistleReading
No I can not. But would you die for your belief that Sasquatch exists?



That's exactly what makes Christianity so dangerous. They are manipulated by Government into killing innocent people for their God.

Though this may be the sad case at times, this is true with most things and not only religion. Many things can be twisted and misused and instead of causing good instead causes harm. Think of fire. Think of a knife. Think of a toaster, for crying out loud! Do you blame the fire when a person commits arson? Do you blame the knife when someone intentionally stabs another? Do you blame the toaster when someone out of despair throws it in a full bathtub while sitting in it? Blaming the Gospel of Christ to the horrendous actions of sinful people is being uninformed and naive to the message of Christ. Blaming Christianity for the sins of its followers is collectivist and ignorant thinking.

And still you haven't answered my question. Would you die for your belief that Sasquatch exists?

[heavenlyboy34]

I fear you are taking things out of context here if you think these passages suggest one should become a tyrant. As a non-Christian, it is probably best if you leave the Book of Revelation alone since it is a book you may not understand and most likely misinterpret. (This would apply to Christians as well. And this is not my opinion, but the opinion of the Orthodox Church)

Yes, Christians have never misinterpreted Revelations. :rolleyes:;)

[TER]

Yes, Christians have never misinterpreted Revelations. :rolleyes:;)


(This would apply to Christians as well. And this is not my opinion, but the opinion of the Orthodox Church)

This is why I edited my post!
Christians are the FIRST to misinterpret the Book of Revelation.

[Malakai]

Though I am not religious at all (agnostic) I have no problem with this.

[heavenlyboy34]

This is why I edited my post!
Christians are the FIRST to misinterpret the Book of Revelation.

Sowwy. I overlooked that. My bad.

[Pennsylvania]

Yes, Christians have never misinterpreted Revelations. :rolleyes:;)

One Unitarian certainly interpreted it correctly as "no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams"

I believe ye know of whom I speak. :)

[LibertyEagle]

When you are the GOD of the universe you will force what needs to be forced.

<snip>

Below, Jesus forced this down their throats:

John 8:42-47

<snip>

They were the Talmudic cult and they are the ones that had him killed. He broke up there Federal Reserve system that was operating in the Temple and physically whipped them with a whip.

But again, WE are not God. It's up to each individual to choose their own path. What we have to decide is whether we can rise above this and respect each other's decision and stand beside each other and work for our shared goals of liberty.

Everyone on both sides of this issue, if you are unable to work together to accomplish the goals that we all used to understand we were fighting for, what, with all due respect, are you doing here? Either we make the conscious decision to respect each other's religious choices and move past that, or we stay here beating the crap out of each other, and be complete failures in what we set out to do in this freedom movement. Don't forget that there are people out there (and probably here too) who would love to see us stay all mired in this and other things, and unable to regain our focus. There's a lot at risk here. We all know that, or should. It's getting worse and worse out there. Do you think we can pull back together somehow? I hope so.

[heavenlyboy34]

But again, WE are not God. It's up to each individual to choose their own path. What we have to decide is whether we can rise above this and respect each other's decision and stand beside each other and work for our shared goals of liberty.

Everyone on both sides of this issue, if you are unable to work together to accomplish the goals that we all used to understand we were fighting for, what, with all due respect, are you doing here? Either we make the conscious decision to respect each other's religious choices and move past that, or we stay here beating the crap out of each other, and be complete failures in what we set out to do in this freedom movement. Don't forget that there are people out there (and probably here too) who would love to see us stay all mired in this and other things, and unable to regain our focus. There's a lot at risk here. We all know that, or should. It's getting worse and worse out there. Do you think we can pull back together somehow? I hope so.

I hope so too. :)

[Truth Warrior]

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" -- Jesus [ Luke 6:46 (KJV) ]

[TER]

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" -- Jesus [ Luke 6:46 (KJV) ]

Well put. Many call Him Lord yet only with their mouths and not from their hearts. Who truly worships the Lord? Read the quote in my signature. Those who follow those word truly worship the Lord.

[fedup100]

[QUOTE=fedup100;1930825]

You are spinning it to make it reasonable but he doesn't use words like "I suggest" or "should". I can read. He is telling you that you are guilty by association with a non-believer.

You have free will, so it is a suggestion to other Christians complete with side affects.

Too messy for Christians nowadays. They prefer germ warfare and sterilizing the heathens by stealth instead.

Your ignorance of history has given you away.. The germ warfare today and butchering that has gone on for thousands of years were from the joooos, not the Christians. Please do not mention the inquisitions to me, personally, they cannot be a Christian religion.

Please try to stay on point. Take a deep breathe and wipe the foam from your mouth. :eek:

[M House]

No they were not. What are you talking about? If you look it up, alot of our modern germ warfare knowledge came from the Japanese after World War II. He might be referring the Christians though that gave the Native American's diseased goods and blankets. This is actually known in written history. It's amusing I'll find a link. Unless you got a link about Jews actually doing anything related to germ warfare, I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

[Dieseler]

Another Day,
Another Battle,
In Another thread,
We continue the War.

[fedup100]

+

Today's Epistle...

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:27-31)

Our enemies know this about us and that is how they have taken our country and our wealth from us without firing a shot. This verse has been use effectively to force all kinds of GODLESS behavior as acceptable in this country.

While I agree with that quote , GOD is also clear we are not to lie down in the face of evil. Most of the founding fathers were devout Christians, they did what had to be done to protect there lives and their faith. Why have we not done the same?

[Truth Warrior]

Your ignorance of history has given you away.. The germ warfare today and butchering that has gone on for thousands of years were from the joooos, not the Christians. Please do not mention the inquisitions to me, personally, they cannot be a Christian religion.

Please try to stay on point. Take a deep breathe and wipe the foam from your mouth. :eek:

So just how many "jooos" are currently running the US Federal government, as opposed to "Christians" ( so-called )?

[TER]

+

Today's Epistle...

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:27-31)

Our enemies know this about us and that is how they have taken our country and our wealth from us without firing a shot. This verse has been use effectively to force all kinds of GODLESS behavior as acceptable in this country.

While I agree with that quote , GOD is also clear we are not to lie down in the face of evil. Most of the founding fathers were devout Christians, they did what had to be done to protect there lives and their faith. Why have we not done the same?


God want us to first fight the evil within ourselves. Do we do that? Or do we simply blame others?

Live as stated in the above quote, and all hell can surround you for naught. Live as stated in the above quote and then you will find peace in this world, and joy. Heavenly joy!

[M House]

Okay look instead of saying the Jews did it just be mature and look it up.

Japanese Unit 731
http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/91409.htm
You can also wiki it.

History of Biological Warfare
http://www.gulfwarvets.com/biowar.htm

[worl]

I have yet to meet a Christian who is really a Christian. Your bible makes it impossible to be a Christian without entering the major spin zone of those who are still desperately propping up all the absurdities in the bible. If your bible were true, none of you are going to heaven anyways so why fight for a God that has condemned you to burning in hell? How many one-eyed, one handed Christians do you know?

Matthew

5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

You are trying to mix the law with grace. Christians are not under the law, they are saved by grace, not of works. If we could be saved by the law, then why would it be necessary for christ to die.

[TER]

You are trying to mix the law with grace. Christians are not under the law, they are saved by grace, not of works. If we could be saved by the law, then why would it be necessary for christ to die.

Christ died to destroy death and corruption which entered into the world through the fall.

We are saved by grace, surely, but our works is what draws this grace.


From the Epistle of James:

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,...

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?...

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[pinkmandy]

If there's a war on religion then the religions themselves are their own worst enemies. What can people of faith expect when there are so many zealots in positions of power or preaching from their pedestals? While I know there are many who don't fall into that category, unfortunately you aren't the ones in positions of power any more than the ideals of Ron Paul are what the GOP is all about. We are watching them push to tell people who they can and cannot marry using govt as the enforcer, gleefully supporting the bombing of innocent people in Iraq, overwhelmingly supporting violations of our freedom via various unconstitutional acts, allegiance to Israel no matter what kind of atrocities the country commits, an expansive foreign policy with all the big govt that entails and many other little things that are too numerous to list.

So it can be called a 'war on religion'. It can also be called blowback. I think the term 'unintended consequences' also applies. Do the 'terrorists' hate us for our beliefs and lifestyles or our policies?

[fedup100]

Warning for all you Christians that have accepted "tolerance". here is the payoff.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0114/p02s02-usgn.html


Below is the very reason GOD has warned his people to not allow other gods and religions and traditions of men. We are battling it here today on this forum. Our founding fathers would have been horrified.

"Tolerence" has flooded your country with strange flesh and customs and the Christian is buying it and welcoming it into their homes and to their children.



Most US Christians define own theology

More than half say other faiths can also lead to salvation.
:eek:

Reporter Jane Lampman discusses how Americans feel about religion in US public life.

American individualism has made its imprint on Christianity.

A sizable majority of the country's faithful no longer hew closely to orthodox teachings, and look more to themselves than to churches or denominations to define their religious convictions, according to two recent surveys. More than half of all Christians also believe that some non-Christians can get into heaven.

"Growing numbers of people now serve as their own theologian-in-residence," said George Barna, president of Barna Group, on releasing findings of one of the polls on Jan. 12.

In the Barna survey, 71 percent of American adults say they are more likely to develop their own set of religious beliefs than to accept a defined set of teachings from a particular church. Even among born-again Christians, 61 percent pick and choose from the beliefs of different denominations. For people under the age of 25, the number rises to 82 percent.

Many "cafeteria Christians" go beyond the teachings of Christian denominations to embrace parts of other world religions.
:eek::mad:
Half of Americans also believe that Christianity is now just one of many faith options people can choose from (44 percent disagree with that perception). Residents of the Northeast and West were more likely than those in the South and Midwest to say Christianity has lost its status as the favored American religion.

Christians expressed a variety of unorthodox beliefs in the poll. Nearly half of those interviewed do not believe in the existence of Satan, one-third believe Jesus sinned while on earth, and two-fifths say they don't have a responsibility to share their faith with others.

The most striking divergence from orthodoxy, however, was first revealed in the 2007 US Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. That comprehensive survey of 35,000 Americans found a majority of Christians saying that people of other religions can find salvation and eternal life.
:eek:
The results stirred controversy among some Christian leaders for whom Jesus as the only path to salvation is a paramount teaching. Some questioned whether those surveyed about "other religions" might have been thinking of Christian denominations or traditions – such as Protestants referring to Roman Catholicism – rather than non-Christian faiths.

Pew undertook a follow-up survey, which it released in late December. That poll found 65 percent of American Christians (including 47 percent of Evangelicals) do indeed think that many different religions can lead to eternal life. Among these Christians, 80 percent cited one non-Christian faith as a route to salvation; 61 percent named two or more. The schools have been successful!

The survey also asked about views on how one obtains eternal life. Among all adults with a religious affiliation, 30 percent say correct beliefs are what counts, 29 percent say salvation depends on one's actions during life, while 10 percent say both are essential. Those who emphasize the impact of actions are more inclined to believe that practitioners of non-Christian faiths can achieve eternal life. Most of those who emphasize beliefs say non-Christian paths do not lead to heaven.

The poll confirms a broad rejection of religious exclusivity. Among all religious adults interviewed, 65 percent say many religions lead to eternal life and only 29 percent say theirs is the one true faith. Sixty-nine percent of all non-Jews say Judaism can lead to eternal life and 52 percent of non-Muslims say that of Islam.

Forty-two percent of religious Americans also say atheists are able to find eternal life.

While some people hail these findings as heartening for American pluralism, others see them as a wake-up call. R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary writes on his blog about biblical Christianity's role in countering such inclusive views and helping people find the true Christian way. Others point to the power of egalitarian American culture.

This guy wouldn't know GOD if he met him on the street.

"It's just part of a 200-year working out of ideas about personal autonomy and equality that are sort of built into the American experience," says Alan Wolfe, director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life at Boston College. "The notion that someone is going to burn in hell because they have their own beliefs is just not resonant within our larger political ideals."

[M House]

If they are Christian terrorists, they hate your lifestyle. If they are Muslim terrorists, it's your beliefs. Haha, right....

[Truth Warrior]

The Triumph of Imperial Christianity (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance155.html)
Laurence Vance on the conservatives' war religion.

[TER]

If there's a war on religion then the religions themselves are their own worst enemies. What can people of faith expect when there are so many zealots in positions of power or preaching from their pedestals? While I know there are many who don't fall into that category, unfortunately you aren't the ones in positions of power any more than the ideals of Ron Paul are what the GOP is all about. We are watching them push to tell people who they can and cannot marry using govt as the enforcer, gleefully supporting the bombing of innocent people in Iraq, overwhelmingly supporting violations of our freedom via various unconstitutional acts, allegiance to Israel no matter what kind of atrocities the country commits, an expansive foreign policy with all the big govt that entails and many other little things that are too numerous to list.

So it can be called a 'war on religion'. It can also be called blowback. I think the term 'unintended consequences' also applies. Do the 'terrorists' hate us for our beliefs and lifestyles or our policies?

Those zealots in power, unfortunately, do not strive for power due to love and zeal to serve God, but rather for the earthly power itself. Their goal often times is not what is good and right for God's children, but rather, what is good and right for themselves primarily. Rather, they serve the prince of this world, who is satan, and deceptively call themselves Christians. This can be said for all faiths, in all places, and at all times.

[heavenlyboy34]

The Triumph of Imperial Christianity (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance155.html)
Laurence Vance on the conservatives' war religion.

I've read this piece, and I also recommend it to all. :)

[M House]

I have no idea why Christians exist in their present form at all. Our founders fought the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church. If any of you wanted a true overview of Christianity, you'll have to look through the Orthodox groups and "heretics". You know the things before St. Augustine. I mean those were the original Christians. Before that is gonna be anyone's guess.

[TER]

fedup100, your job is to live as Christ lived- with humility, meekness, and love for all people. God does not need you for anything nor depend on you for anything. Find peace within yourself, and others around you will find peace as well.

[fedup100]

Those zealots in power, unfortunately, do not strive for power due to love and zeal to serve God, but rather for the earthly power itself. Their goal often times is not what is good and right for God's children, but rather, what is good and right for themselves primarily. Rather, they serve the prince of this world, who is satan, and deceptively call themselves Christians. This can be said for all faiths, in all places, and at all times.


You are partially correct. The American Churches have brainwashed the Christian to support Israel. The real controllers and elite are the false joo, they use Christian or so called christian politicians and then they pull the strings behind the puppet.

Can you not see this plainly in the obot admin. It is joo to the hilt.

O, a Christian that supports the murder of babies now world wide and the sin of homosexuality IS A CHRISTIAN?!

[pinkmandy]

Those zealots in power, unfortunately, do not strive for power due to love and zeal to serve God, but rather for the earthly power itself. Their goal often times is not what is good and right for God's children, but rather, what is good and right for themselves primarily. Rather, they serve the prince of this world, who is satan, and deceptively call themselves Christians. This can be said for all faiths, in all places, and at all times.

Exactly. And unfortunately they are the ones representing Christians and they are the ones creating the backlash. Just like neocons have come to represent the Republican party....we may not hold their ideals but we get lumped in with them all the same. It seems to me that extremists are in power everywhere throughout society.

[PatriotOne]

I fear you are taking things out of context here if you think these passages suggest one should become a tyrant. As a non-Christian, it is probably best if you leave the Book of Revelation alone since it is a book you may not understand and most likely misinterpret. (This would apply to Christians as well. And this is not my opinion, but the opinion of the Orthodox Church)

Hitler says "rule with an iron rod" he is a tyrant.

Bush says "rule with an iron rod" he is a tyrant.

Stalin says rule with an iron rod he is a tyrant.

Jesus says "rule with an iron rod" it was taken out of context.

Yeah, I know the rules of Christianity. If it is absurcd on it's face say it was taken:

Out of context
Just a parable
Or we just can't read well enough to translate properly :rolleyes:

So, enlighten me. What does "rule with an iron rod" mean to Christians? Freedom?

[TER]

So, enlighten me. What does "rule with an iron rod" mean to Christians? Freedom?

In your haste to respond, you assumed too much.

We as Christians are charged to 'rule with an iron rod'. You did not get that part wrong. :)

What you got wrong is 'what' we are charged to rule over.

Far from it, that Christ, the Prince of Peace, would charge us to rule over our fellow brothers and sisters, all children of God, Whom God loves equally.

We are charged to 'rule with an iron rod' against the evil that we struggle against in ourselves. The passions, the temptations, the demons. Here, we are to be warriors in Christ and destroy with overwhelming force those stated things which attack us daily and throughout our lives.

[M House]

It might not even be a misinterpretation.

"You're translating it wrong" -Pelagius

He wasn't a cult leader either. He was part of the original Church. And one of a few people who got to debate the issue, actually. In 400 A.D. there weren't any Greeks alive. So um he had a point.

[Pennsylvania]

What you got wrong is 'what' we are charged to rule over.


What are you basing that on?


to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron

[M House]

Actually, I'm beginning to wonder what language was all this in originally. I mean if you simply do a wiki it says Old Testament is Hebrew(isn't there several forms), Aramaic, and Greek. New Testament is almost all originally Greek. How did a bunch of Romans translate that?

[TER]

What are you basing that on?

I now see where I mispoke, as the verse in question is not regarding how we as Christians should live, but rather, the authority Jesus has. I apologize. It seems in my own haste I assumed too much!

Christ on His return will not come born as a child in a manger, but instead in glory and power, as Judge of the world. During that time of Judgement, He will surely 'rule with iron rod' against the evil in the world.

[TER]

Actually, I'm beginning to wonder what language was all this in originally. I mean if you simply do a wiki it says Old Testament is Hebrew(isn't there several forms), Aramaic, and Greek. New Testament is almost all originally Greek. How did a bunch of Romans translate that?


The language of the Roman Empire during Christ's time on earth was Greek. It was the most widespread and common language.

[M House]

I'm still alittle baffled this Roman Greek would have to be a bit different from Greek-Greek right or not?

[TER]

To add to that, the scriptures that Jesus read from were the Septuagint, which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (and is the most accurate translation to date). The Jews changed to another translation after Jerusalem fell and Christianity had begun to spread. The majority of the verse references of the Old Testament written by the Gospel writers are from the Septuagint.

Thus, you see the change of 'virgin' to 'maiden' in the modern Jewish bible (regarding the prophesy of the messiah), when during the time of Christ, it was well understood that the word was 'virgin'.

[M House]

Yeah it's a different language. What's different about it is up to linguist to explain, jeez.

[TER]

I'm still alittle baffled this Roman Greek would have to be a bit different from Greek-Greek right or not?

It was Koine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek).

From Wikipedia:

Koine was the first common supra-regional dialect in Greece and came to serve as a lingua franca for the eastern Mediterranean and ancient Near East throughout the Roman period. It was also the original language of the New Testament of the Christian Bible.[1] Koine is the main ancestor of modern Greek.

[M House]

Okay it was meant to originally be a go between language, according to wiki, between several different languages of the Roman Empire. I think that probably leaves more than alittle room for translation error and interpretation.

[TER]

Okay it was meant to originally be a go between language, according to wiki, between several different languages of the Roman Empire. I think that probably leaves more than alittle room for translation error and interpretation.

Isn't every language like that? :)
Look at the English language that we use. Almost every other word has it's root from another language!

[Pennsylvania]

To add to that, the scriptures that Jesus read from were the Septuagint, which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (and is the most accurate translation to date). The Jews changed to another translation after Jerusalem fell and Christianity had begun to spread. The majority of the verse references of the Old Testament written by the Gospel writers are from the Septuagint.

Thus, you see the change of 'virgin' to 'maiden' in the modern Jewish bible (regarding the prophesy of the messiah), when during the time of Christ, it was well understood that the word was 'virgin'.

TEP, you've earned my respect as someone who might practice what he/she preaches.

Now, I was wondering about this post of yours: I was under the impression that the Hebrew word used was alma referring generally to a young woman. If I understand your post correctly this means that the Hebrew bible which uses this word is actually a reverse-translation?

Not attacking here, just very curious, as I haven't heard of that before.

[fedup100]

fedup100, your job is to live as Christ lived- with humility, meekness, and love for all people. God does not need you for anything nor depend on you for anything. Find peace within yourself, and others around you will find peace as well.

Are you saying I have none of those qualities? GOD does not need me ? Nor depend on me? Find peace?

How can you judge me as having no peace etc:, 99% of my postings on this thread are verses from the word of GOD in order to answer a question asked, not my opinion.

GOD knows we all have different personalities and loves all of us. Our only purpose here is to spread the gospel to the world. I am amazed at the hatred on this link for the word of GOD. WE as Christians must not bow down in meekness and apologize for the word of GOD.

I am in corner, swinging the sword of the word at foaming at the mouth GOD haters and you tell me to find peace? These kind who hated and killed Christ will kill the meek Christian. Check out the millions killed in Russia. While we are to love all men and in meekness live our lives, please show me where we are to lay down before the godless and give them their way over our bodies, minds, and homes and country :mad:

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Your right, they just kill you should you choose to no longer believe. I could not find an article that showed the Christians killing people who decided to not believe and leave the Christian religion.

Wow, thats probably one of the most ignorant things I've heard in a long time. Ask the Cathars, the Pelagians and the Arians how it felt to be considered 'heretics'. Oh, thats right. YOU CAN'T CAUSE THEY WERE WIPED OUT BY THEIR FELLOW "CHRISTIANS"!

[heavenlyboy34]

Are you saying I have none of those qualities? GOD does not need me ? Nor depend on me? Find peace?

How can you judge me as having no peace etc:, 99% of my postings on this thread are verses from the word of GOD in order to answer a question asked, not my opinion.

GOD knows we all have different personalities and loves all of us. Our only purpose here is to spread the gospel to the world. I am amazed at the hatred on this link for the word of GOD. WE as Christians must not bow down in meekness and apologize for the word of GOD.

I am in corner, swinging the sword of the word at foaming at the mouth GOD haters and you tell me to find peace? These kind who hated and killed Christ will kill the meek Christian. Check out the millions killed in Russia. While we are to love all men and in meekness live our lives, please show me where we are to lay down before the godless and give them their way over our bodies, minds, and homes and country :mad:

FYI, if you take up Soviet history, you'll find that they killed for preservation of the STATE-not just any single religion. :(:mad: That's one reason the USSR collapsed-they killed/imprisoned too many people. And, I fear that similar things are happening here. :(:p

[LibertyEagle]

I've read this piece, and I also recommend it to all. :)

I've read it and think it is good, too. But, these people are not doing this because they are Christians. Just the opposite, they have strayed from Christ's word, or are just charlatans.

[M House]

Wow, thats probably one of the most ignorant things I've heard in a long time. Ask the Cathars, the Pelagians and the Arians how it felt to be considered 'heretics'. Oh, thats right. YOU CAN'T CAUSE THEY WERE WIPED OUT BY THEIR FELLOW "CHRISTIANS"!

Wise man. These weren't "heretics" at all but part of the same church.

[heavenlyboy34]

Isn't every language like that? :)
Look at the English language that we use. Almost every other word has it's root from another language!

Not Esperanto! (to my knowledge) :eek:

[TER]

Now, I was wondering about this post of yours: I was under the impression that the Hebrew word used was alma referring generally to a young woman. If I understand your post correctly this means that the Hebrew bible which uses this word is actually a reverse-translation?

Not attacking here, just very curious, as I haven't heard of that before.

The word in the Septuigint is "παρθενος (http://greekconcordance.blogspot.com/2007/10/virgin.html)", which explicitly means virgin. This was how the Jewish Scholars from all over the known world considered the word "alma" to refer to when the Septuagint was commissioned by Ptolemy 3 centuries before the Incarnation.

It was not until way after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and into the 3rd century AD when the Jews began to use the Hebrew/Aramaic Targum manuscripts later compiled by the Masoretes and Aramaic translations, such as those of Onkelos and Rabbi Yonathan ben Uziel. In these versions, they conveniently reverted back to more primitive understandings of the Scriptures in regards to certain prophetic verses rather than the common understanding which was expounded by Christ and the early Christians via the Septuagint, and for 300 years of Hebrew teaching prior to the Incarnation.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

How can you judge me as having no peace etc:, 99% of my postings on this thread are verses from the word of GOD in order to answer a question asked, not my opinion.

------------ [and then]

I am in corner, swinging the sword of the word at foaming at the mouth GOD haters and you tell me to find peace? These kind who hated and killed Christ will kill the meek Christian. Check out the millions killed in Russia. While we are to love all men and in meekness live our lives, please show me where we are to lay down before the godless and give them their way over our bodies, minds, and homes and country :mad:


You're just a soldier for God aren't you?? :rolleyes:

If you are trying to emulate Jesus.....you suck at it.

[Pennsylvania]

The word in the Septuigint is "παρθενος (http://greekconcordance.blogspot.com/2007/10/virgin.html)", which explicitly means virgin. This was how the Jewish Scholars from all over the known world considered the word "alma" to refer to when the Septuagint was commissioned by Ptolemy 3 centuries before the Incarnation.



There are three things which are too wonderful for me, four which I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’alma]. This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

Am I wrong in thinking that "alma" in this context would have to refer to a young woman engaged in sexual activities?
I believe I did read on a Judaist webpage that the commonality between these elements: the eagle, the serpent, the ship, and "alma" is that they leave no trace of evidence. Thus when the young woman says "I have done no wrong" it is as though she is covering up that activity of which she is ashamed.

[Mini-Me]

Excerpted from:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

In response to the OP and the Ron Paul quote:
Personally, I always cringe whenever I hear this quote...because I usually hear it from anti-Paul people who think he's some kind of secret theocrat. It's the only quote of Paul's that I remember ever reading that's factually incorrect, considering the Constitution is not in fact "replete with references to God," in any way, shape, or form. Of course, Paul's detractors like to use that against him, as evidence that his religion clouds his judgment and that he would not in fact be able to restrain himself from "legislating morality." Frankly, he was mistaken when he said that particular sentence, and I wish he never did. :(

In my own opinion, I also think that a lot of people tend to misunderstand the main idea behind his viewpoint (or if they're right, he's mistaken in thinking this way), which can be summed up by his sentence, "The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life." He's right that the establishment clause was not meant to drive religion out of public life, but as far as I can tell (if the Framers were as intelligent as they should have been...), it was meant to drive both religion out of government and government out of religion...because mixing the two only works to corrupt both. Creating an official state church is really only separated from involving religion in government legislation/enforcement whatsoever by a matter of mere degree, not by a matter of principle...and that degree must necessarily be chosen arbitrarily by politicians and bureaucrats (a dangerous proposition).

[M House]

I wish I could sit down and talk to him about what exactly he hoped to accomplish with that "We the People Bill". That too made me cringe at the depth of it's implications. If it just said the government could not interfere with Church matters, this would be a different thing to me.

[TER]

Am I wrong in thinking that "alma" in this context would have to refer to a young woman engaged in sexual activities?
I believe I did read on a Judaist webpage that the commonality between these elements: the eagle, the serpent, the ship, and "alma" is that they leave no trace of evidence. Thus when the young woman says "I have done no wrong" it is as though she is covering up that activity of which she is ashamed.

This is a perfect example!


Proverbs 30:18-20
There are three things which are too wonderful for me, four which I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’alma]. This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

In the Septuagint, the word in the proverb which was translated from alma is νεοτητι which means 'maiden', and can mean 'virgin'. The next line states 'women' which in the Septuagint is γυναικος , referring to one who is not a maiden and not a virgin.

When the Septuagint was made 3 centuries before the Incarnation, it clearly stated in Isiah that a virgin would be with child, NOT simply just a maiden, as alma implies. This is a very significant difference in meaning. It wasn't until Christ was born of a virgin (and in fact 2 to 3 hundred years later) that they changed the meaning to the nebulous alma which means maiden and not necessarily virgin.

However, this is clear proof that at the time of Christ, all Jewish scholars agreed that the messiah would be born of a παρθενος (virgin), and was changed to alma (maiden) in the Hebrew texts 300 years later after the prophecy was fulfilled.

[PatriotOne]

In your haste to respond, you assumed too much.

We as Christians are charged to 'rule with an iron rod'. You did not get that part wrong. :)

What you got wrong is 'what' we are charged to rule over.

Far from it, that Christ, the Prince of Peace, would charge us to rule over our fellow brothers and sisters, all children of God, Whom God loves equally.

We are charged to 'rule with an iron rod' against the evil that we struggle against in ourselves. The passions, the temptations, the demons. Here, we are to be warriors in Christ and destroy with overwhelming force those stated things which attack us daily and throughout our lives.

Since I never mentioned who Christians were to rule over, not sure how you managed to evaluate whether I got it wrong or not. But anywho......

My Sasquatch God told me to destroy everyone, with overwhelming force, who does not believe in Sasquatch...THEY ARE EVIL and in cohoots with the anti-Sasquatch. Do YOU believe in Sasquatch? I'll be needing that for future reference. The time is near and he plans on ruling the world ya know :cool:.

[TER]

Since I never mentioned who Christians were to rule over, not sure how you managed to evaluate whether I got it wrong or not. But anywho......
That was my mistake. I apologize. :)


My Sasquatch God told me to destroy everyone, with overwhelming force, who does not believe in Sasquatch...THEY ARE EVIL and in cohoots with the anti-Sasquatch. Do YOU believe in Sasquatch? I'll be needing that for future reference. The time is near and he plans on ruling the world ya know :cool:.

Uh oh! Guess I may have to die for my beliefs!

The question I have for you is: would you die to defend your belief in mighty Sasquatch?

[PatriotOne]

Exactly. And unfortunately they are the ones representing Christians and they are the ones creating the backlash. Just like neocons have come to represent the Republican party....we may not hold their ideals but we get lumped in with them all the same. It seems to me that extremists are in power everywhere throughout society.

And yet it is the Christians who keep voting them in office. They ARE Christian representatives because self-proclaimed Christians voted them into office.

[PatriotOne]

That was my mistake. I apologize. :)



Uh oh! Guess I may have to die for my beliefs!

The question I have for you is: would you die to defend your belief in mighty Sasquatch?

Of course I wouldn't. That would make me a dangerous crazy person ;). Shall I assume you are willing to go kill other people for some God defined by the Roman Empire and redefined and redefined and redefined by others till not even Christians can agree on their own religion? Holy crap, I'll probably just be able to stand back and watch the Christians do battle with each other. It will be like watching poor people in L.A. torching other poor people's stuff in the hood :p. I imagine it will be like watching a Jerry Springer episode :D.

[TER]

Then I don't believe you really believe in Sasquatch.

There is no greater way a human can give testimony or witness to a belief than to die for it. The Islamic suicide bombers? I don't doubt they truly believe that 72 virgins are waiting for them. The Heaven's Gate cult? Yep, they really believed a comet was gonna take them to paradise. The Apostles who were tortured and killed? They believed to their dying breath they beheld the Risen Christ.

[M House]

Yeah, I'm kinda thinking dying for you religion isn't one of the finer aspects.

[TER]

Yeah, I'm kinda thinking dying for you religion isn't one of the finer aspects.

Killing for your religion is contemptable, at least from a Christian perspective.
Dying for your religion, on the other hand, is the greatest form of witness. In fact, the word martyr comes from the Greek word martyra, which mean 'witness'.

[tonesforjonesbones]

There was a question asked early on in the thread. I will turn it around.

Do the atheist/agnostics think that the Christians should leave the liberty movement? Tones

[PatriotOne]

Then I don't believe you really believe in Sasquatch.

There is no greater way a human can give testimony or witness to a belief than to die for it. The Islamic suicide bombers? I don't doubt they truly believe that 72 virgins are waiting for them. The Heaven's Gate cult? Yep, they really believed a comet was gonna take them to paradise. The Apostles who were tortured and killed? They believed to their dying breath they beheld the Risen Christ.

Your one of those Christian people even Christian's call crazy aren't you? Since dying for your belief is one of the greatest acts, does that mean the Islamic suicide bombers went to heaven and had 72 virgins waiting for them and the Heaven's Gate's people went to heaven also?

Dying for a "belief" does not make a belief valid.

[PatriotOne]

There was a question asked early on in the thread. I will turn it around.

Do the atheist/agnostics think that the Christians should leave the liberty movement? Tones

Not me. I'm just baffled why they think Christianity has anything to do with liberty myself. It's all about tyranny. And say we win the "liberty" battle. I don't want to have to start fighting with a bunch of crazy assed Christians after that when the enemies flash some hologram of Jesus in the sky.

[TER]

I never claimed it makes a belief valid.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Because that is what has been fed to you for the past 100 years. This is an agenda. Christianity MUST be destroyed so the New World Order can conquer the USA. You do realize they hate all religion because they want the STATE to be GOD..not GOD. It happens to be Christianity now because that is the largest religious group in the world...don't worry...they want to destroy all religions. Tones

[TER]

Not me. I'm just baffled why they think Christianity has anything to do with liberty myself. It's all about tyranny.

Enlighten us then, what is liberty?

[ewizacft]

True. The Orthodox Church. :)

Where are the teachings of the orthodox church? Does this Orthodox Church have a The Bible For Dummies printed anywhere?

[tonesforjonesbones]

Unfortunately all of you young atheists are falling into the trap. You are inside their box...they WANT atheism. They do'n want God controlling you...God is their enemy. tones

[M House]

So God is controlling you and making you say all this stupid stuff. And he's like your friend?

[M House]

Where are the teachings of the orthodox church? Does this Orthodox Church have a The Bible For Dummies printed anywhere?

Um it's the same old bible with slightly different books. Don't be a dummy.

[TER]

Where are the teachings of the orthodox church? Does this Orthodox Church have a The Bible For Dummies printed anywhere?

I am happy you asked! :)

A good place to start is here: http://www.oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

For further study: http://www.holytrinitymission.org/index.php (the textbook section)

A good resource for those from Protestant backgrounds (radio archives): http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/archives.htm

For a really good study bible: http://orthodoxstudybible.com/

[M House]

Wow, which Orthodox groups are those I saw quite a few different ones?

[heavenlyboy34]

Unfortunately all of you young atheists are falling into the trap. You are inside their box...they WANT atheism. They do'n want God controlling you...God is their enemy. tones

No, TPTB want STATE RUN theism. Why do you think they cooked up the non-profit scam? TPTB now have the ability to tell the churches what they can or can't say and do. :( (p.s.-in case there is confusion, I'm not an atheist, FYI)

[Theocrat]

No, TPTB want STATE RUN theism. Why do you think they cooked up the non-profit scam? TPTB now have the ability to tell the churches what they can or can't say and do. :(

In essence, the State is making itself a god, thus violating the First and Second Commandments. Those in seats of power in government are acting like humanists, assuming there is no transcendent, eternal, and almighty God to be accountable to. They make the rules as they see fit, and thus, what we have is institutionalized, State-supported "atheism."

[Mini-Me]

Unfortunately all of you young atheists are falling into the trap. You are inside their box...they WANT atheism. They do'n want God controlling you...God is their enemy. tones

I disagree...I believe that "they" want us to fight with each other. They don't really give a damn whether people believe in God or not - when it comes to religion, all they really care about is dividing us so we fear and even hate each other too much to ever come together and seriously challenge them...and so far, I think it's working.

[M House]

Give me a break do realize what percentage of the nation is atheist?

[M House]

No, you "Christians" have always divided yourselves. Take good hard look at your history.