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Liberty Rebellion
01-24-2009, 04:48 AM
I'm sure many of you here have encountered the occasional person who a)promotes socialist ideas b)doesn't realize they're socialist because they don't agree on the definition of what socialism is c)doesn't have the slightest understanding of economics, so the very concept of socialism and why it's bad are impossible for them to grasp d)thinks that Bush was to blame for almost everything and that the Dems & Obama are going to make everything okay e)doesn't understand the concept of liberty, natural law, and that their "solutions-for-the-betterment-of-mankind-at-the-point-of-a-gun" are no different than any other tyrannies imposed upon man.

Even before Obama was elected, I have encountered some Ron Paulers in crowds I once felt to be mostly liberty-minded folks, who suddenly decided Obama was going to save the world with his wonderful policies. It really makes me wonder, if Ron Paul was their first choice did they even understand the message? It was as if they liked what he was saying, but didn't understand why, nor did they understand his principles of ardently obeying the Constitution. Of course, I'm not painting everyone who voted for Obama with this brush, but there are some people that REALLY don't get it.

This email kicked up a firestorm in a Meetup in my area:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfrqmwg4_0ddmbkncw

We explained the consequences of big government ad nausem: wreckless spending, empire, less liberty at home, insolvent (or soon to be) entitlement programs, etc, etc.

From that email sprung another person who espoused the virtuousness of "free" healthcare. When confronted with questions about the current private and national debt-load; the soon to be bankrupt Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security programs; and how to finance such a program while entering a downturn of epic proportions, they were simply ignored.

How can you get through to someone that won't acknowledge or repudiate your points in a debate, and instead come back with emotion-laden, rhetorical nonsense?

On Myspace, I had a friend that seemed to me we had a lot of things in common, just by the bulletins they posted and from when I've talked to them via email in the past. However, since George Bush is no longer POTUS, this person has done a 180 and is now FULLY behind Obama. They also think that Roosevelt made the country richer with the "New Deal" and is calling on Obama to do the same. I've had back-and-forths with this person for MONTHS and the debate pretty much goes as described above which my points going unacknowledged . I have to ask if my previous email was read due to me re-iterating so many of my arguments

For example, they posted a bulletin titled "Does Capitalism Really Work at All?" with this video embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iVykQr4yws

After doing five minutes of research online, I pointed out that the various countries talked about all had mixed-economies. I also explained that what the guy in the video was complaining about was the result of government intervention throughout the world and not free-market capitalism. I told them that their solution was part of the problem. The next email basically told me I was insane for thinking that. I have also been accused of worshiping a "golden calf" for my advocacy of free-markets by this person.

I can't take much more debating with someone doesn't listen to reason. Especially now that I'm being likened to a Methhead for my beliefs in liberty.
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=14892249&blogID=466012899

Lol, I just realized the video referenced in the blog is a creation from one of the members on ronpaulforums!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1R8vRB-qeU


Anyone else have any experiences like this?

I'm about at wits-end trying to get this person to "see the light."

Truth Warrior
01-24-2009, 06:21 AM
Simple explanation, they are sheeple. Old shepherd Bush has now been replaced by new shepherd Obama, only because enough of the "brainwashed" flock said so. :p :rolleyes:

coyote_sprit
01-24-2009, 06:47 AM
I hope he enjoys the gulags. Think he realizes that MySpace and YouTube are both owned by massive corporations? Especially MySpace.

steph3n
01-24-2009, 08:27 AM
I think there was a small group supporting Paul for only the anti-war/non intervention and not caring about the rest, in fact I met a few in south florida.

Conza88
01-24-2009, 09:24 AM
How can you get through to someone that won't acknowledge or repudiate your points in a debate, and instead come back with emotion-laden, rhetorical nonsense?

Oh, so you've met a Zeitgeist Addendum supporter?

Try "debating" someone who doesn't believe there is a reality, this is all just perception. :rolleyes:

It's like, they are SO STUPID, you just don't know what to say to such insanity. It's like, wait, where the ---- do I begin?

*AHHHHHHHH MENTAL SHUTDOWN*

*Face palm commence*


Lol, I just realized the video referenced in the blog is a creation from one of the members on ronpaulforums!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1R8vRB-qeU

Shown on Infowars. :D


Anyone else have any experiences like this?

I'm about at wits-end trying to get this person to "see the light."

See sig, a few things may help there. Try converting them subtely with material that works.

Birthday present, you give them Fountainhead and tell them you think they'll really like it.

Give them a few anti-war dvd's, or anti collectivist, pro individualism... V for Vendetta, whatever etc.

:)

lucius
01-24-2009, 09:31 AM
I call them jane/joe six-pack, and they are the end-result of 100 years of masterful social-engineering/inculcations. You can pull the fork out of them, because it is self-evident: they are now 'done.' :(


By Liberty Rebellion:
a)promotes socialist ideas b)doesn't realize they're socialist because they don't agree on the definition of what socialism is...

Your insight is dead-on, look to Prong One: Semantic Deception [in red] below. It is an interesting observation from Charlotte Iserbyt, a high-level policy creator in Reagan's Dept. of Ed who later became a whistle blower.

"If Americans do not understand how they have been victimized by “The Seven Prong Fork,” if they do not start asking questions, and demanding answers; if they do not take action to reverse our nation’s slide into world government, they will experience, in the very near future, what George Orwell described so well in his novel 1984:

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on the human face—forever…and remember, that is forever.”"

From here, with alot of other good stuff: http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/pages/articles/Devils_Seven_Prong_Fork.html

THE DEVIL'S SEVEN-PRONG FORK

By Charlotte Iserbyt

January 13, 2007

Our family has seen many changes in the past year which necessitated my pulling a “Houdini act” and withdrawing from the political activist scene.

One of the changes in my life was a move from the city to the countryside … to a house overlooking the magnificent Kennebec River in Maine . This great river attracts wonderful birds, including our nation’s symbol, the Bald Eagle. They appear frequently, especially when the river freezes, swooping down onto the ice flows which provide a solid base from which they can feed. Would that our nation, whose symbol is the Bald Eagle, had similar solid constitutional support from its government thus enabling Americans to continue to live as free citizens.

The Bald Eagle, still free, is flying with both wings. The United States , no longer free, is flying with but one wing … as pilots would say “on a wing and a prayer.”

This article explains why our formerly free country is in the 21st Century flying with only one wing.

The most devastating aspect of The Fork’s use is that we victims hadn’t the foggiest idea we were being victimized, but thought, to the contrary, that the government had our best interests at heart. The government, in partnership with the “usual suspects:” the elitist, internationalist corporate sector, the tax-exempt foundations, the Federal Reserve Bank, the educational system, the controlled media, and some important religious denominations, has year after year, consistently, worked to create an environment which keeps its citizens ignorant regarding what is really going on, thereby creating the necessary citizen apathy which allows “the usual suspects” to accomplish the dismantlement of the greatest, freest, most successful nation in the history of the world. If Americans do not understand how they have been victimized by “The Seven Prong Fork,” if they do not start asking questions, and demanding answers; if they do not take action to reverse our nation’s slide into world government, they will experience, in the very near future, what George Orwell described so well in his novel 1984:

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on the human face—forever…and remember, that is forever.”

For the history of regional governance and subversion in the United States and abroad the reader can go to americandeception.com, a FREE website, which provides scanned primary research, and click on researcher/writer D. Niwa’s “hot-off-the-press” The Emerging North American Union (NAU), which includes a most useful Timeline (1921-2006); Maureen Heaton’s The Impossible Dream; and The Don Bell Reports. This website also makes available to the public, for the first time, the 4000-page transcript of the 1953 Reece and Cox Congressional Committee hearings related to the investigation of the subversive activities of the tax-exempt foundations, for which Norman Dodd served as Research Director. During a meeting in New York City in 1953 Dodd was told by Rowan Gaither, the President of the Ford Foundation, that the White House instructed the foundations “to use their grant-making power to so alter life in the United States that we can be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union .” The foundations, especially Carnegie, Rockefeller, and Ford, concerned that the American people, to whom they owed their tax exemption, would have access to the record of these hearings, scooped up all available copies immediately after the hearings were abruptly terminated in 1954. President Eisenhower, carrying out the above treasonous directive to the foundations, signed the first agreements with the Soviet Union in 1958 at the peak of the Cold War. (Had those hearings NOT been terminated, it is unlikely Americans would be looking at the demise of their nation under the NAU, or that the virtual merger of Russia ’s and the United States ’ basic political, economic, cultural, educational, and law enforcement systems would have taken place over the past 48 years.)

THE DEVIL’S SEVEN PRONG FORK consists of:

Prong One: Semantic Deception, covered by George Orwell in 1984, calls for lying through the deceitful use of words. Few Americans question the innocent-sounding words/phrases such as “regionalism,” “consolidation,” “democracy” “free trade,” “public/private partnerships,” “school choice,” “base closures” “faith-based,” “freedom,” “patriot,” “security,” “prosperity,” “peace” et al. Why has no one told the American people that regionalism, be it local, county, state, national or international, is COMMUNISM? The regionalization (consolidation) of the world is quite similar to the three-stage plan outlined by Stalin at the 1936 Communist International. At that meeting, the official program proclaimed: "Dictatorship can be established only by a victory of socialism in different countries or groups of countries, after which there would be federal unions of the various groupings of these socialist countries, and the third stage would be an amalgamation of these regional federal unions into a world union of socialist nations.” What Stalin called for is taking place in front of our very eyes, with the NAU and other emerging global regional groupings, following the model of the European Union. Regionalism erases constitutional, geographical borders and in so doing does away with locally-elected officials, creating larger and larger municipal units managed by faceless, highly-trained, socialist change agent bureaucrats. A communist writer, Morris Zeitlin, admits that regionalism is communism in an article entitled “Planning is Socialism’s Trademark” published in the Communist Party’s Daily World 11/8/75 . Go to deliberatedumbingdown.com where the deliberate dumbing down of America …A Chronological Paper Trail can be downloaded FREE. Zeitlin’s article is found on Page 134.

More recently, former President of the Soviet Union Mikhail Gorbachev confirmed Zeitlin’s comments when he, during a visit to London on March 23, 2000 , referred to the emerging European (regional) Union (EU) as “the new European Soviet.” Does this not make the NAU the New American Soviet?

Regionalism has been fostered not only by the left, as would be expected, but by mainstream conservative leadership as well. I recall, at a Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in the mid-seventies an exchange of views between the former editor of National Review, William Rusher, and myself. I asked “Why doesn’t the conservative media (Human Events, National Review, etc.) ever discuss regionalism? His response was: “I guess they just don’t think it’s very important.”

On December 28, 2006 Michael Medved, neoconservative writer and radio talk show host, wrote “Shame on Demagogues Exploiting ‘North American Union’”, an article which confirms what Rusher said but goes even further by actively supporting the NAU (regionalism). Medved’s article Townhall.com is a vitriolic diatribe in which he attacks concerned, well-informed and highly-respected Americans, including journalists, due to their opposition to the NAU and the highway through Texas and the Great Plains connecting the USA , Mexico , and Canada . He calls them “paranoid, lunatics, losers, crooks, cranks, demagogues and opportunists.” His hysterical ranting indicates that CNN’s Lou Dobbs and Jerome Corsi, amongst other writers, are succeeding in waking up Americans to the fact that their nation is on its way out as a Constitutional Republic unless they act quickly. Dobbs described the merger controversy this way in a recent CNN broadcast:

“For any American to think that it is acceptable for the president of the United States and…our government, to proceed without the approval of Congress or a dialogue and a debate and a public voice from the people of this country is absolutely unconscionable…What they’re doing is creating a brave new world, an Orwellian world, in which the will of the people is absolutely irrelevant.”

EARTH times.org reported 1/7/07 “’A U.S.-European economic partnership like NAFTA is critical to both regions’ economies’, new European Union President Angela Merkel of Germany says.” The late Andrew Carnegie, who, in 1886, called for “creating two nations out of one people” (return the United States to the ‘mother’ country— England ) must be smiling from his grave!

Other examples (IN SOLID CAPS) of the use of deceptive words follow:

President Bush’s PATRIOT Act is probably the most unpatriotic, treasonous Act ever passed by the Congress.

President Bush’s FREEDOM (Mental Health) Initiative will eventually, if fully implemented, mandate mental health screening and services lifelong for all Americans. Anyone familiar with the history of the Soviet Union will immediately recognize this initiative’s resemblance to the Soviet Union ’s use of the mental health system to incarcerate political dissidents. In 1948 Alger Hiss, Soviet agent, redefined “health” as a “state of complete physical, mental, and social well-being, and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.” The international elite view those opposed to world government as “mentally sick.”

The President’s innocent-sounding FAITH-BASED Initiative is referred to in an article in The Washington Post as “communitarian.” Most dictionaries define communitarianism as a form of communism.

And one certainly could ask how the SECURITY and PROSPERITY Partnership (Canada, Mexico, and USA) is going to make us more secure or more prosperous, considering the freedom and security-destroying effects of the Real ID Act, NAFTA, CAFTA, the Office of Homeland Security and the prosperity and job-destroying (redistribution of wealth) effects of NAFTA and CAFTA.

Prong Two is the constant use of German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Hegel’s (1770-1831) Dialectic in moving persons toward predetermined goals and objectives. About thirty years ago, before I had the foggiest idea of education change agent manipulation of the community, including teachers, to get destructive immoral and non-academic programs initiated without too much flack, I unknowingly played out the dialectic method but this time in regard to doing laundry. I put my red woolen sweater in the laundry (hot water) with my husband’s white cotton shirts. The result: pink cotton shirts for my him and a red sweater the size of a wash cloth for me. The important result, as it relates to how the dialectic plays out, is that I never had to do laundry again, not for my husband, not for either of my two sons. The mandate was “Don’t give Mom your laundry!” Now, had I never wanted to do laundry again and had I understood how the use of the dialectic inevitably gets what one wants, I would have done exactly what I unknowingly did with such success.

Prong Three is the use of Gradualism (put the frog in cold water and gradually turn up the heat until the frog is dead, without having the faintest idea what happened to him.) For over 150 years we have had gradualism used on us. Richard Gardner, former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and U.S. Ambassador to Italy, said in a 1968 speech “The Hard Road to World Order:” “In short, we are likely to do better by building our ‘house of world order’ from the bottom up rather than the top down. It will look like a great, ‘booming, buzzing confusion,’ to use William James’s famous description of reality, but an end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece, is likely to get us to world order faster than the old-fashioned frontal attack.”

Prong Four is Control of the Media. David Rockefeller, in Baden-Baden , Germany , 1991, thanked the major media for keeping secret the elitists’ plan for the world. He said:“… it would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government.”

Prong Five/Endless Money Supply depends on the unconstitutional, private Federal Reserve Bank’s ability to create hundreds of billions of dollars out of thin air, when necessary. The education “industry,” for example, has been a recipient of whatever it wanted to “deliberately dumb down” and “condition” future Americans so they don’t know what is happening to them or their country. If you haven’t been taught what economic/political system you have, why would you be upset if, as is the case today, the public/private partnerships implement the corporate fascist/socialist planned economy? Your neighbor’s glazed expression when asked if he approves of the NAU or, at the local level, the consolidation of all the cities in his county (regionalism) is a good example of the damage inflicted on their brains (cognitive dissonance) by the public education system.

Prong Six relates to control of agenda of Republican and Democrat Parties, allowing only those individuals with an international socialist philosophy to be nominated and, once elected, ensuring they vote the One Party (internationalist) Line.

Prong Seven is UN control of education lifelong under the umbrella of the school district (community re-education). The late Professor Benjamin Bloom, an internationalist closely associated with UNESCO, and the father of The Taxonomy of Educational Objectives, in which all teachers have been trained, said in his book All Our Children Learning: “The purpose of education and the schools is to change the thoughts, feelings and actions of students.” The UN and the tax-exempt foundations have created a socialist America through Skinnerian/Pavlovian behavior modification programs (animal training which bypasses the brain) and the radical change from academics to the communist/fascist polytechnical (lifelong school- to- work job quota system) being implemented today under the controversial No Child Left Behind/ No American Left Alone Act.

This writer hopes the reader will copy The Devil’s Seven Prong Fork and get it into as many of his acquaintances’ hands as possible. Our elected officials might read it and develop a new perspective on why they are voting as they are voting. Understanding the use of The Devil’s Seven-Prong Fork is the major key to victory over those who are surreptitiously robbing our children and grandchildren of their God-given freedoms, freedoms guaranteed under the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Let us all work to restore freedom to our great nation; let us work to enable the United States of America to fly again with both wings, as does the Bald Eagle, our nation’s majestic symbol of freedom.

Here is her book in pdf, The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, dead-on accurate and she provides it free, spread it around in your travels: http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf


By By Liberty Rebellion:
I'm about at wits-end trying to get this person to "see the light."

By educating:
This writer hopes the reader will copy The Devil’s Seven Prong Fork and get it into as many of his acquaintances’ hands as possible. Our elected officials might read it and develop a new perspective on why they are voting as they are voting. Understanding the use of The Devil’s Seven-Prong Fork is the major key to victory over those who are surreptitiously robbing our children and grandchildren of their God-given freedoms, freedoms guaranteed under the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Jeremy
01-24-2009, 09:35 AM
For example, they posted a bulletin titled "Does Capitalism Really Work at All?" with this video embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iVykQr4yws


lololololol HAHAHAHAHAH OOOHHHHH hahahaha HAAAA lolololololol LOL hamuhauhauhuhuh OH HEHEHEH heheh hahaha HA HA HA lololololol OHH MA MA MA oh hahahahaha hah ha ha ha ha hehehehehhe lololol ok ok ok HA HA HA HA ta ha ha ha he he he he muahahahhahaha lolol LOLOL ROFLcopter muahha l0lz hahahalolol ololololol hahaha ha ha hok ok ha ha ha ha ha hehehehe muhahah hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha lolol aaaaaahahaha oooohhh mamamamam hahahahha ho ho ho hahahaha hehehehe lolololol LOLOL XD lolol hahahaha ohhahahahmuahalolololLOLlolol okokokok hahhahaha LOLOLOLOL lololol roflroflrofl lmao lololol LOL lolololololol LOL LOL LOL lololololololololol OH OH OH hahahahahaha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha HAHAHAH oh lololololo lolol lolololololol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol nahahahhahaha HA

Truth Warrior
01-24-2009, 09:36 AM
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem. From time to time we've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden." -- Ronald Reagan, 1981


"Those who do not learn from history, are condemned to repeat it."

Anti Federalist
01-24-2009, 10:53 AM
They will never, never understand that the massive state that they have created to "help" will always, always end up "helping" by dropping bombs and incinerating people.

Trying to "educate" such people is an exercise in futility, it like trying to teach a pig to whistle: you never get anywhere and just annoy the pig.

Separation is the only answer, otherwise we will taken down with them.

Truth Warrior
01-24-2009, 11:55 AM
They will never, never understand that the massive state that they have created to "help" will always, always end up "helping" by dropping bombs and incinerating people.

Trying to "educate" such people is an exercise in futility, it like trying to teach a pig to whistle: you never get anywhere and just annoy the pig.

Separation is the only answer, otherwise we will taken down with them.

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1537946&postcount=109 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1537946&postcount=109)

;)

eOs
01-24-2009, 12:05 PM
without an up there can be no down. without cold there couldn't be hot. without retards there cannot be a liberty movement.

Truth Warrior
01-24-2009, 12:09 PM
without an up there can be no down. without cold there couldn't be hot. without retards there cannot be a liberty movement. Perhaps the universe is not REALLY dualistic. ;)

:)

danberkeley
01-24-2009, 03:04 PM
One huge problem I have with converting people, explaining concepts/ideas/theories/etc, and refuting/debunking arguments is that many people do not have the intellectual capacity to understand complexities beyond a certain threshold. Many people cannot think critically. Some people are intellectually inept. I have, for the most part, given up on statists. I find it a waste of time trying to argue with them. Especially when they have skewed definitions of terms/words. I would rather focus on those not yet infected by the statist bug.

Ex Post Facto
01-24-2009, 03:29 PM
To the OP and fan club: You represent thing very right wing of the liberty movement. I agree that many of your assumptions are reality; but, I respectfully disagree. As a liberty movement we cannot expect things to change our way overnight. Dividing the ranks, by labeling your brothers and sisters that support the cause for liberty by name calling, does not help the situation. While there is a need to promote constitutional reform, small government, and fiscal responsibility, there is even a greater need unite our communities through a collective and individualized approach bringing them under the umbrella of liberty.

You mentioned previous Ron Paul supporters, agreeing with some of Obama's decisions. What is wrong with that? No his decisions aren't ground breaking, but they do open government files for review and turn away from Bush policy. Obama's foreign policy is still terrible in my mind, and I'll always be against that, but actions to make peace over war is always better in my mind. With peace comes the opportunity to reevaluate sending our troops back home. I'd like to mention that I wanted Ron Paul as president, but didn't get my way.

What I think will promote liberty is exactly what you hate. Service to your country men and woman. Obama promotes it a different way than I would like to see it. When I say promote Service I mean to become a leader in your community. Get people involved with learning how to take care of themselves. If we have an economic crash coming we need to forewarn all the community, and teach them how to live without a government hand out to take care of them. IF an economic collapse comes...then you will have more clout than any politician. People will know you helped prepare them.

I say to you, stop promoting a political ideology that people aren't willing to accept and build rapport in your local community. While involved with them, maybe growing a community garden where all share it's rewards, tell them about how WE have all the answers not the government.

heavenlyboy34
01-24-2009, 03:41 PM
To the OP and fan club: You represent thing very right wing of the liberty movement. I agree that many of your assumptions are reality; but, I respectfully disagree. As a liberty movement we cannot expect things to change our way overnight. Dividing the ranks, by labeling your brothers and sisters that support the cause for liberty by name calling, does not help the situation. While there is a need to promote constitutional reform, small government, and fiscal responsibility, there is even a greater need unite our communities through a collective and individualized approach bringing them under the umbrella of liberty.

You mentioned previous Ron Paul supporters, agreeing with some of Obama's decisions. What is wrong with that? No his decisions aren't ground breaking, but they do open government files for review and turn away from Bush policy. Obama's foreign policy is still terrible in my mind, and I'll always be against that, but actions to make peace over war is always better in my mind. With peace comes the opportunity to reevaluate sending our troops back home. I'd like to mention that I wanted Ron Paul as president, but didn't get my way.

What I think will promote liberty is exactly what you hate. Service to your country men and woman. Obama promotes it a different way than I would like to see it. When I say promote Service I mean to become a leader in your community. Get people involved with learning how to take care of themselves. If we have an economic crash coming we need to forewarn all the community, and teach them how to live without a government hand out to take care of them. IF an economic collapse comes...then you will have more clout than any politician. People will know you helped prepare them.

I say to you, stop promoting a political ideology that people aren't willing to accept and build rapport in your local community. While involved with them, maybe growing a community garden where all share it's rewards, tell them about how WE have all the answers not the government.

Why a "community" garden? Why not individuals helping individuals with their own gardens? You are a very suspicious character, my friend.:eek:

heavenlyboy34
01-24-2009, 03:42 PM
without an up there can be no down. without cold there couldn't be hot. without retards there cannot be a liberty movement.

WTF?? :confused:

Ex Post Facto
01-24-2009, 03:52 PM
Why a "community" garden? Why not individuals helping individuals with their own gardens? You are a very suspicious character, my friend.:eek:

That too...a neighbor of my parents recently got with all their neighbors and decided to help all of them grow their own gardens. So the whole neighborhood is now pitching in to help each other get their own garden started. In addition, the guy is also helping them can their food for saving. This is the type of thing that goes a long way and assures that we are all looking out for each other at the same time government isn't.

Dark_Horse_Rider
01-24-2009, 04:05 PM
To the OP and fan club: You represent thing very right wing of the liberty movement. I agree that many of your assumptions are reality; but, I respectfully disagree. As a liberty movement we cannot expect things to change our way overnight. Dividing the ranks, by labeling your brothers and sisters that support the cause for liberty by name calling, does not help the situation. While there is a need to promote constitutional reform, small government, and fiscal responsibility, there is even a greater need unite our communities through a collective and individualized approach bringing them under the umbrella of liberty.

You mentioned previous Ron Paul supporters, agreeing with some of Obama's decisions. What is wrong with that? No his decisions aren't ground breaking, but they do open government files for review and turn away from Bush policy. Obama's foreign policy is still terrible in my mind, and I'll always be against that, but actions to make peace over war is always better in my mind. With peace comes the opportunity to reevaluate sending our troops back home. I'd like to mention that I wanted Ron Paul as president, but didn't get my way.

What I think will promote liberty is exactly what you hate. Service to your country men and woman. Obama promotes it a different way than I would like to see it. When I say promote Service I mean to become a leader in your community. Get people involved with learning how to take care of themselves. If we have an economic crash coming we need to forewarn all the community, and teach them how to live without a government hand out to take care of them. IF an economic collapse comes...then you will have more clout than any politician. People will know you helped prepare them.

I say to you, stop promoting a political ideology that people aren't willing to accept and build rapport in your local community. While involved with them, maybe growing a community garden where all share it's rewards, tell them about how WE have all the answers not the government.

Nicely Stated.

Anti Federalist
01-24-2009, 05:32 PM
Ex Post Facto wrote:


I say to you, stop promoting a political ideology that people aren't willing to accept and build rapport in your local community. While involved with them, maybe growing a community garden where all share it's rewards, tell them about how WE have all the answers not the government.

Community outreach. Yes, not a bad idea. I've been hard at work on that concept, working on what I like to call a Committee of Safety.

But let's take what's in bold in the above quote, because it will cut a very clear and distinct line between what I'm talking about, and, I'm assuming, about what you're talking about, posed in a simple rhetorical question.

The community garden has flourished, the harvest is blessed and large.

Now, come harvest time, appears the person who did nothing all summer long, other than dig a few weeds, for a half hour, one Sunday back in August.

Does this person then get an equal share of the harvest?

Does this person deserve an equal share of the harvest?

heavenlyboy34
01-24-2009, 05:35 PM
That too...a neighbor of my parents recently got with all their neighbors and decided to help all of them grow their own gardens. So the whole neighborhood is now pitching in to help each other get their own garden started. In addition, the guy is also helping them can their food for saving. This is the type of thing that goes a long way and assures that we are all looking out for each other at the same time government isn't.

Nice sentiment. HB34 approved! :D

danberkeley
01-24-2009, 05:36 PM
... I agree that many of your assumptions are reality; but, I respectfully disagree...

So you respectfully disagree with reality?


I say to you, stop promoting a political ideology that people aren't willing to accept and build rapport in your local community.

If people accepted our political ideology, we would not have to promote it.

Ex Post Facto
01-24-2009, 06:59 PM
Ex Post Facto wrote:



Community outreach. Yes, not a bad idea. I've been hard at work on that concept, working on what I like to call a Committee of Safety.

But let's take what's in bold in the above quote, because it will cut a very clear and distinct line between what I'm talking about, and, I'm assuming, about what you're talking about, posed in a simple rhetorical question.

The community garden has flourished, the harvest is blessed and large.

Now, come harvest time, appears the person who did nothing all summer long, other than dig a few weeds, for a half hour, one Sunday back in August.

Does this person then get an equal share of the harvest?

Does this person deserve an equal share of the harvest?

These are questions best left for those involved to solve.

The idea is that we help people understand that government doesn't hold the answer to our problems; we hold the answer to our problems. Each person individually contributes to the whole (not in a socialist way) in an individual way. This contribution is not brought about by force or regulation, it is brought about through a shared responsibility individually and collectively. If you chose not to be a part of the collective club of individuals you don't get the reward. You may chose on your own to do as you wish, and maintain all the rewards for yourself. Neither is regulated by government. Each is a choice you make. Service to your community is very libertarian as long as nobody is there to take away the fruits of your labor, or limit your creative talent, and nobody is telling you you must participate.

If you go back to when our constitution was alive and well in comparison to today's situation...people helped their neighbors, because there was not a centralized government big enough to interfere with their lives. They did so freely. They did so to help enforce the laws of the land when needed. Slowly, corrupt powers began realizing that they could use these people that wanted to do good for their neighbors and create good feeling causes to get behind. The good people not realizing the direct result it was having on their community went ahead with the ideas praising the politicians for doing a good thing.

At least this would make a good movie

Liberty Rebellion
01-24-2009, 07:00 PM
To the OP and fan club: You represent thing very right wing of the liberty movement.

I represent Constitutional government and I advocate for free markets and individual liberty. If government must exist at all, is should be to protect individual liberty and not much else


I agree that many of your assumptions are reality; but, I respectfully disagree.

:confused:


As a liberty movement we cannot expect things to change our way overnight.

I never expected that


Dividing the ranks, by labeling your brothers and sisters that support the cause for liberty by name calling, does not help the situation.

The people I'm referring to DO NOT support the cause for liberty. If they did, I would not be having this discussion with them. When people start calling centralized government programs for the betterment of mankind "Americanism," it's important to remind them that they aren't the first person to come up with the idea of taking from an individual and giving it to another. Those ideas can be found in what is referred to as socialism.

I don't think pointing out to someone that they are supporting socialist programs is a form of name calling. It's an observation and hardly an insult.


While there is a need to promote constitutional reform, small government, and fiscal responsibility, there is even a greater need unite our communities through a collective and individualized approach bringing them under the umbrella of liberty.

The message of liberty is what brings people together. Some people simply can't comprehend that message, however. They BELIEVE that government should provide healthcare, pensions, and whether you like it or not, they believe these programs should be forced upon you. These are the people I'm referring to.


You mentioned previous Ron Paul supporters, agreeing with some of Obama's decisions. What is wrong with that?

Um, because those policies are anti-liberty


No his decisions aren't ground breaking, but they do open government files for review and turn away from Bush policy.

Transparency in government is not one of the policies I had a problem with nor were turning away from some of Bush's policies.


Obama's foreign policy is still terrible in my mind, and I'll always be against that, but actions to make peace over war is always better in my mind.

Peace? We just blew up 15 people in Pakistan, still fighting two wars in the ME with more troops being deployed to Afghanistan, and have standing armies in almost every country on Earth.


With peace comes the opportunity to reevaluate sending our troops back home.

^See above



What I think will promote liberty is exactly what you hate. Service to your country men and woman. Obama promotes it a different way than I would like to see it.

Wow. Assume much? I already work with charitable organizations in my community and I did that before Obama was even a household name.


When I say promote Service I mean to become a leader in your community. Get people involved with learning how to take care of themselves.

I don't disagree that we should be leaders in our community, but I've found that the only people that will listen to you about taking care of themselves are the ones who are open to the message of liberty and personal responsibility. Someone who thinks we should have global government because we're all a big family and the government should divvy up the goods to be shared is not going to take your message seriously, if they can understand it at all.



If we have an economic crash coming we need to forewarn all the community, and teach them how to live without a government hand out to take care of them. IF an economic collapse comes...then you will have more clout than any politician. People will know you helped prepare them.

Yes, and try to get anyone to listen to you about that. Everything is still peaches and cream for a lot of people and they aren't worried about the insolvent government programs to not be there. And if they do go belly up they EXPECT the government to do something.


I say to you, stop promoting a political ideology that people aren't willing to accept and build rapport in your local community. While involved with them, maybe growing a community garden where all share it's rewards, tell them about how WE have all the answers not the government.

I don't think I'll stop promoting liberty anytime soon, thank you. The people I'm talking about BELIEVE that government has all the answers, that's the whole problem!

Ex Post Facto
01-24-2009, 07:04 PM
So you respectfully disagree with reality?

If people accepted our political ideology, we would not have to promote it.

I respectfully disagree with the reality that every person is a sheeple, and liberty seekers that support some of Obama's decisions are have turned against the concepts of liberty. We should always maintain the vision of liberty, but each step made in the direction of liberty is one step away from tyranny.

Yes...if people accepted our ideology we wouldn't have to promote it. Have you ever accepted someone else's ideology? It's very difficult to do. Show them another way, is all I'm saying. Show them out of compassion that we are all in this together.

Andrew-Austin
01-24-2009, 07:11 PM
My explanation: their a product of the public education system.

nbhadja
01-24-2009, 08:03 PM
I respectfully disagree with the reality that every person is a sheeple, and liberty seekers that support some of Obama's decisions are have turned against the concepts of liberty. We should always maintain the vision of liberty, but each step made in the direction of liberty is one step away from tyranny.

Yes...if people accepted our ideology we wouldn't have to promote it. Have you ever accepted someone else's ideology? It's very difficult to do. Show them another way, is all I'm saying. Show them out of compassion that we are all in this together.

you said this "Obama's foreign policy is still terrible in my mind, and I'll always be against that, but actions to make peace over war is always better in my mind."

Obama is NOT different than Bush in any major area. He has the SAME foreign policy, monetary policy, economic policy.

Btw Obama just ordered out a bombing on Pakistan that killed nearly 20 civilians. He wants to invade Iran and Pakistan and will not rule out the use of nuclear weapons on Iran.

Obama= Bush

"and liberty seekers that support some of Obama's decisions are have turned against the concepts of liberty"

What Obama decisions do you support?

nbhadja
01-24-2009, 08:09 PM
I respectfully disagree with the reality that every person is a sheeple, and liberty seekers that support some of Obama's decisions are have turned against the concepts of liberty. We should always maintain the vision of liberty, but each step made in the direction of liberty is one step away from tyranny.

Yes...if people accepted our ideology we wouldn't have to promote it. Have you ever accepted someone else's ideology? It's very difficult to do. Show them another way, is all I'm saying. Show them out of compassion that we are all in this together.

I just looked at your post history, no offense but you are a Obama supporter. It is very clear because in all of your posts you throw praise at Obama. You said the start to Obama's presidency has been very promising yet we just bombed and killed 15 in Pakistan and the dollar is still being rapidly inflated.

Anti Federalist
01-25-2009, 12:55 AM
Ex Post Facto wrote:


Neither is regulated by government. Each is a choice you make. Service to your community is very libertarian as long as nobody is there to take away the fruits of your labor, or limit your creative talent, and nobody is telling you you must participate.

The "service" that Obama speaks of is government regulated and centrally planned.

Exactly the opposite of a ground up, grassroots community of nieghbors helping neighbors, which I agree with.

Ex Post Facto wrote:


I say to you, stop promoting a political ideology that people aren't willing to accept

That's why "centrally planned service" won't work. People are not willing to accept the responsibility, you are quite right.

But the real world consquences of that are, literally, life and death.

Check with the Puritan sepratists at Plimouth Colony to see how well that "community garden" idea worked out.

So, while in agreement with much of what you said about reaching out and working with your nieghbors, you lost me on that one phrase.

My freedom, my liberty, my conscience is not an "ideology".

It is not contigent on someone "accepting" it. Frankly, I could give a frog's fat ass whether they do or don't. It is not a bargaining chip, it is not subject to political compromise, regardless of who "wins" an election.

It is, in fact, the only thing that makes life worth living and goddamn the man who tries to take it away from me.

And if it turns out I am to be the last man standing to make that claim, then so be it.

Ex Post Facto
01-25-2009, 01:13 AM
Anti Federalist:

I am right with you. It doesn't matter what other people accept as their ideology. That is why I think promoting an alternative where respect to each other, and building that sense of community will go further. I've been experimenting with people and how they adopt a set of values, over the course of my involvement with this campaign. Although not scientific I realized I was doing the same thing as the media does. Slowly the effects are being seen at least to me on a local level. You and everyone here are doing the same thing, but once we recognize what it is that we do we can capitalize on it.

I have been informing people of Ron Paul ideology without promoting a brand name. I've talked with many people about economics and how it works. Like most people on here you realize they can't handle the information, or they turn you off. But, when you just mention your cause without making a big deal about it, you do this over and over with people you come in contact with...slowly people start saying the same thing. They think it was there idea all along.

I have been telling people at my job for months subtle things about the economy and central banking. When I tell them I act as if I don't care, or I just make a funny comment about our tax dollars used to pay our debt which we loan right back from the bankers. In the beginning these people had no clue about any of this. Now I pass by conversations they are having with others, and they are regurgitating my lines about the economy and banking. I act like I don't hear them, or chime in with affirmation.

Do you see? It's so easy to win over the public. The media has them tuned in, but I work with them. They see me more than the news. People want to be right all the time. Let them be right, don't insult them, and affirm them when they are speaking the truth but let them do the talking. I liken this to the boss that steals your ideas and swears they were the one that thought of everything, because in their mind they did.

AJ Antimony
01-25-2009, 01:28 AM
I know far too many people like that.

Best thing to do is invest/protect your money like an Austrian, and when all their savings disappear via inflation, you'll be last standing, and MAYBE then they will be willing to listen.

qh4dotcom
01-25-2009, 01:46 AM
Bump

hugolp
08-26-2009, 05:59 AM
There is no way to fight against emotional arguments but with more emotional arguments. Its a game you will have to play, and you will have to learn to play it weel.

One that works very good is saying that corporations love regulations and they are all for regulations, because that way they get rid of competition. Try to put the people who defend regulations in the "bad" place, because its in fact the truth. People defending regulations are defending monopolistic corporations. Show them that they are defending what they say they are attacking.

akforme
08-26-2009, 10:41 AM
There is no way to fight against emotional arguments but with more emotional arguments. Its a game you will have to play, and you will have to learn to play it weel.

One that works very good is saying that corporations love regulations and they are all for regulations, because that way they get rid of competition. Try to put the people who defend regulations in the "bad" place, because its in fact the truth. People defending regulations are defending monopolistic corporations. Show them that they are defending what they say they are attacking.

I always ask the "we need more regulation" folks why they support de-regulating the best regulator we have... failure. Bailing these corps out just means they don't have to pay for their mistakes. If you told me i could go to vegas and whatever I lost you'd cover I'd be making taking some huge chances especially after you handing me a pile of money at almost no interest.

silverhandorder
08-26-2009, 11:14 AM
There is no way to fight against emotional arguments but with more emotional arguments. Its a game you will have to play, and you will have to learn to play it weel.

One that works very good is saying that corporations love regulations and they are all for regulations, because that way they get rid of competition. Try to put the people who defend regulations in the "bad" place, because its in fact the truth. People defending regulations are defending monopolistic corporations. Show them that they are defending what they say they are attacking.

Well I used this sometimes. I get answers like corporations and no regulation is 10x worse and that we simply need the right people. At this point my argument deteriorate to trying to argue points that are getting way off subject.

Mani
08-26-2009, 11:58 AM
Once in the eyes of the person, this political debate becames a MORAL debate, it's pointless to argue.


It's like you are questioning your intrinsic values and core human morals. Once a political debate reaches that level, forget it.

They hold this belief regarding health care like, "How could you let the children die???" "We must save the children. You want to let the children die in the streets because of your rich profiting greediness."

That's not a political debate. Those are core human values and those are not up for debate. I don't bother with those people.

acptulsa
08-26-2009, 12:02 PM
Once in the eyes of the person, this political debate becames a MORAL debate, it's pointless to argue.

It's like you are questioning your intrinsic values and core human morals. Once a political debate reaches that level, forget it.

I don't give up on them until I've at least tried to show how and why their position is less moral, and mine more moral, than they've been led to believe. I've had enough experience with this to always stubbornly give it a try. Logic and emotion--such as righteous indignation (you're the one doing more harm than good yet you call me unprincipled?!) can work very well together.

mport1
08-26-2009, 03:37 PM
Pretty acurately reflects how I feel when I try to convince minarchists to consider anarcho-capitalism. It can be pretty frustrating but some people are not very open minded.

Imperial
08-26-2009, 03:44 PM
Once in the eyes of the person, this political debate becames a MORAL debate, it's pointless to argue.


It's like you are questioning your intrinsic values and core human morals. Once a political debate reaches that level, forget it.

They hold this belief regarding health care like, "How could you let the children die???" "We must save the children. You want to let the children die in the streets because of your rich profiting greediness."

That's not a political debate. Those are core human values and those are not up for debate. I don't bother with those people.

All debates come down to morality. You just have to embrace that. If the means are immoral that someone utilizes then that is where you win.

Stary Hickory
08-26-2009, 03:58 PM
Well keep trying, yeah this gets old. I have people at work who are like this too. The thing is to say, we all should choose how we live our own lives, and that if they want that stuff they ought to talk only about including themselves in it and leave everyone else out of it.

You can start breaking down doors, by asking them how it is moral to force people into a system which they know to be immoral and bad for prosperity. If they start to see the coercion behind the things they want, they may question why coercion is needed if it is indeed a good idea to begin with. Sometimes this works wonders on people.

They won't ever concede and tell you that you are right. Most people cannot do this, but you can make them see the light...they may not admit it. But it does work.

roho76
08-26-2009, 04:32 PM
I hope he enjoys the gulags. Think he realizes that MySpace and YouTube are both owned by massive corporations? Especially MySpace.

Tell him MySpace is owned by News Corp. (Fox News). Then tell him he should go take a shower and wash off all Non Obama stink. Or better yet tell him for supporting Glenn Becks network. In theory he should throw up on the spot.