Conservatism's Dilemma: To be or not to be in the GOP

[LibertyEagle]

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/conservatisms_dilemma_to_be_or.html

[Matt Collins]

Ask Ron what he thinks about it ;-)

[LibertyEagle]

Clearly, you haven't read the article, Matt. So why comment? :rolleyes:

[M House]

Um reading that was depressing, why do people have to go so out of the way to change something that claims to support them? The only thing I liked was the idea to stop giving them money, quicker that BS stops the better.

[LibertyEagle]

"How do conservatives gain control of the GOP? The answer is simple: We take it."

[M House]

I don't get it I know some "conservatives" that pretty much make excuses for the GOP all the time. Take my dad he'll take them to his grave I'm sure. Voted McCain still thinks he'll solve our problems and feels the Democrats give away his money. He thinks I'm insane too. So um I'd say that represents the majority of the party when it comes down to it.

[jclay2]

That was a complete hack job against everyone who is a real conservative and actually wants to make a stand. The author suggest throughout the entire article that conservatives need to take back the gop, and I agree that would be awesome if it did happen. But honestly, the best way to get slippery politicians attention is to vote them out and vote for leaders who stand for conservative ideals. Logically, this would land most sensible people in third parties who are avidly against government spending and intervention. However, the author seems to think that third parties are a complete waste of life "Conservatives who decide to abandon the GOP will have a rough time finding a new political party to live with. The Libertarian Party is wedded to the "philosophy" of selfishness and Ayn Rand. The Constitution Party is barely a blip on the political radar.". Did he seriously have to take a wack at Ayn Rand, one of the most staunch proclaimers of free markets and limited government. :mad: I really don't understand how you could change the gop right now. They have been going down hill for the past 100+ years. Even during Reagan (the god of all fake conservatives) the debt increased five fold and spending doubled. If that is what they define as conservatism, than count me out. I'll take my chances on the constitution party, libertarian party, or candidates such as rp who represent most of their ideals.

[Anti Federalist]

So, I'm reading through the comments, pretty clueless.

[xd9fan]

how about the GOP walk the walk...bullshit is cheap...in washingtondc its worthless.

[Theocrat]

As a conservative Christian, I believe it's been past due for true conservatives to have an exodus out of the GOP. The GOP is no longer a party of principles such as free markets, limited, Constitutional government, and adherence to Godly conduct and character in public offices. They have increasingly over the years grown weak on pro-life issues, and their foreign policy of intervention ("evangelism by the sword," as I like to call it) is horrid and rude. They spend just as much money as the Demo(n)crats, lie more than liberals, and involve themselves in more treachery than the globalists on the Left.

I see no way of reforming the Republican Party anymore, so it's time to walk away from this "Sodom and Gomorrah" of a party, and enter into the Promised Land of a truly conservative and libertarian party. The only party which possesses those traits is the Constitution Party, in my opinion. They have my fullest support, and I encourage any other God-fearing, liberty-minded patriot to join this party. You don't have to agree with everything they stand for, but at least you can have the assurance that the Constitution Party will stand for its principles without compromise, even when it is in the minority.

[Matt Collins]

Clearly, you haven't read the article, Matt. So why comment? :rolleyes:Good call...lol...


Who RTFA anymore anyway? :rolleyes::confused:;):p
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/RTFA

[penguin]

Great article!! Truly awesome especially the part about running for office. Can you imagine the impact of a single RP'er in any level of government? Save your money for the people on our side and lets take our country back.

[M House]

I voted constitution party last time cuz very much agreed with the majority of what Chuck Baldwin brought forth. The GOP is not 10 percent of what I want it to be. It seems to me the attitude is like they'll accept some of our ideals with some of our support and and money but nothing else. We've posted and sent suggestions to them them to change.....nothing. Even at the GOP's present level of suck, it's tough to find a honest note of respect to this movement from it. They are losing supporters left and right but all they seem to do is just drive more people away. I mean Ron Paul is still not even seen as much of a leader by his own party.

[nate895]

Did he seriously have to take a wack at Ayn Rand, one of the most staunch proclaimers of free markets and limited government. :mad:

Umm...Ayn Rand was a self-obsessed fiction writer who happened to not like government all that much. Just look at what her "Objectivist" group did to Rothbard and you will understand how ridiculous her philosophy really was (considering Objectivism was pretty much dead on arrival).

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

Anarchism the logical conclusion of true conservatism

overthrow the government and replace it with nothing :)

[Theocrat]

Anarchism the logical conclusion of true conservatism

overthrow the government and replace it with nothing :)

How is anarchism the logical conclusion of true conservatism? Make sure you define "anarchism" and "conservatism" in your response, as it will be helpful in understanding where your argument is coming from.

[Rael]

Anarchism the logical conclusion of true conservatism

overthrow the government and replace it with nothing :)

I think they are trying that over in Somalia right now.

[Conza88]

I think they are trying that over in Somalia right now.

Stateless in Somalia, and Loving It (http://mises.org/story/2066)

[nobody's_hero]

Well, I never was in the GOP so I suppose the decision isn't all that hard for me. :p

[Conza88]

Tbh, I think everybody should totally bail on the Republican party. No way you'll ever reform it. A new party needs to be built, the message of liberty spread around. LP party.

But then Ron Paul is staying there.. and he won't be moving any where, so until then, I think the movement to take over the GOP will keep going, to no avail.

Do what you can to spread the message, covert others.

[LibertyEagle]

Tbh, I think everybody should totally bail on the Republican party. No way you'll ever reform it. A new party needs to be built, the message of liberty spread around. LP party.

But then Ron Paul is staying there.. and he won't be moving any where, so until then, I think the movement to take over the GOP will keep going, to no avail.

Do what you can to spread the message, covert others.

Uh, Conza, no offense, but are you an American, or an Aussie?

[lucius]

"How do conservatives gain control of the GOP? The answer is simple: We take it."

Agree (+1776), take a page from their book: "Do What Thou Wilt..." :D

[The_Orlonater]

The GOP does not have the best history, neither does the Democratic party.

Hmm..?

[Conza88]

Uh, Conza, no offense, but are you an American, or an Aussie?

The latter. And none taken.

But how does me being a different nationality, make me uninformed? :confused:

[LibertyEagle]

The latter. And none taken.

But how does me being a different nationality, make me uninformed? :confused:

It doesn't, Conza. I was just curious is all.

[pinkmandy]

I can't stomach the GOP anymore. I have no respect for 95% of the people in our local party, they can kiss my arse. I'm disgusted by the lot of them. Lost cause imho. I live in a very 'red' area and they are neocons. Watching them push to support not only McCain but also the re-election of our Repub Congressman, Frank Wolf, who voted FOR the bailout...ugh. They care more about abortion and gay marriage than the govt pissing on our kids' futures. :mad:

I did get a survey form from the chair of the VA Repub party yesterday. He seems to really want input (and money, of course) as it is fairly detailed. I'm working on a letter now to send back with my survey...they aren't getting a dime from me until they stand for the principles of conservatism.

[LibertyEagle]

"they aren't getting a dime from me until they stand for the principles of conservatism."

To me, that's the point. We need to remind them. Then, in my humble opinion, get in there and BE THE CHANGE. If we become the party and convince others, the party will then be what we make of it.

[pinkmandy]

"they aren't getting a dime from me until they stand for the principles of conservatism."

To me, that's the point. We need to remind them. Then, in my humble opinion, get in there and BE THE CHANGE. If we become the party and convince others, the party will then be what we make of it.

I don't trust them. By the time we "become the party" and "convince others" it will be way too late. I will write letters, keep talking, all that jazz but I will not step foot inside another Repub meeting. I cannot handle being surrounded by war mongering morons. They have this system locked up and trying to "reform" these people is like pissing in the wind- I've seen enough eyes glaze over and brains shut down to realize that. We cannot compete with the propaganda machine. Our only hope, imo, is a new party. The Repub party is so far gone that most of the party members I've encountered don't want to be "conservative". Republican means something entirely different to them and they like it.

If we build it, they will come. Something brand new w/none of the baggage of being a Repub, the perceived radicalism of the LP, or the heavy focus on Christianity of the CP. We need something different.

[Conza88]

It doesn't, Conza. I was just curious is all.

:D No worries. I hope to come over to the US by the end of the year, do a road trip. :)

If only the aussie dollar didn't take a dive. :(

Also entering a essay competition, first prize - freedom fest tickets and flights paid etc. :eek:

[LibertyEagle]

I dunno. Only the 2 major parties get in debates and get media coverage, so I'm not sure what good this is going to do us. I wish that wasn't the case, but right now it is.

I do hear you though, pinkmandy, I've had my fill of talking to people who seem to have turned their back on every conservative principle they used to tout, all because they want government to keep them safe from the evil "terrists". :rolleyes: There are the others though and slowly, but surely, some of them are coming around. THAT is what gives me hope. As the economy worsens, I would well imagine that their fear of "terrists" will be overcome with their fear of starvation.

[LibertyEagle]

:D No worries. I hope to come over to the US by the end of the year, do a road trip. :)

If only the aussie dollar didn't take a dive. :(

Also entering a essay competition, first prize - freedom fest tickets and flights paid etc. :eek:

Well, c'mon conza. You're always welcome here. :)

[pinkmandy]

I dunno. Only the 2 major parties get in debates and get media coverage, so I'm not sure what good this is going to do us. I wish that wasn't the case, but right now it is.

I do hear you though, pinkmandy, I've had my fill of talking to people who seem to have turned their back on every conservative principle they used to tout, all because they want government to keep them safe from the evil "terrists". :rolleyes:

We have 4 years to campaign like hell for a new party. We'll capture disillusioned conservatives, CP and LP members, and the dems who realize Obama is more war...we *could* consolidate and do this but right now we are so fractured. :(

Revolution is in the air. I can smell it. I feel that people will turn to something new that offers real answers and solutions in the coming times. I don't think they will turn to one of the 2 big brands- they are/will be angry with both of those. We can capitalize on that anger but we'd have to do it in a concerted, somewhat organized effort.

Yeah, I'm so disgusted right now by the avg Republican that I think if I went to a meeting I'd either get physically ill or end up getting arrested. I'm soooo angry over their willful ignorance, hypocrisy and willingness to put party agenda over principles... :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[The_Orlonater]

I don't trust them. By the time we "become the party" and "convince others" it will be way too late. I will write letters, keep talking, all that jazz but I will not step foot inside another Repub meeting. I cannot handle being surrounded by war mongering morons. They have this system locked up and trying to "reform" these people is like pissing in the wind- I've seen enough eyes glaze over and brains shut down to realize that. We cannot compete with the propaganda machine. Our only hope, imo, is a new party. The Repub party is so far gone that most of the party members I've encountered don't want to be "conservative". Republican means something entirely different to them and they like it.

If we build it, they will come. Something brand new w/none of the baggage of being a Repub, the perceived radicalism of the LP, or the heavy focus on Christianity of the CP. We need something different.

I feel like you, but I'm facing the so called"opposite." I don't go to any of their meetings, though. :D

[Chosen]

This article is about 2.5 to 3 years too late.

Although the roots of anti-Conservatism have been growing in the GOP since George Bush the first took office, they didn't really surface until some very public events occurred which forced Republicans to investigate some of their assumptions. For the most part, the Amnesty legislation confused many Republicans and caused a great deal of far left agenda festering in the party to get exposed to its base. This would include many things not related to amnesty. I think the amnesty attempt in 2006 simply typified the level of arrogance driving GOP's assumptions about Conservative assumptions of their philosophy.

The article mentions some techniques to get the party back, but it does not address the power centers in place which would prevent this from occurring. We have seen from the top down rabid Dem-like assaults on Conservatism, ideals and methodology. The point is that an infrastructure is in place to prevent any changes. In effect it is too late to modify.

Sure there will be lone wolves who give it a shot, get some entry level political positions, but they will soon find they are abandoned and betrayed from within. To survive they have to play the parties game, there is a substantial necessity to rely on infrastructure, ignoring this will get you nowhere.

I accept the positivity in the article, but it certainly denies the gravity of what has happened over the past couple of years. As a non-emotional, purely pragmatic solution, only revolution can change things. This is our fault. We have allowed private fraternal organizations, like the CFR, to run things, make policy, field bi-partisan candidates, affect journalism and create shadow economies that transcend the rule of law.

Revolution is change, rebellion is simply throwing off the chains of the master and as a slave saying " I will not take it anymore!" This amounts to affording the slave with the similar or same benefits of corruption as the master, but it does not change the fundamental flaws or problems. Revolt creates something new. *I should add that true revolution is not nihilism or revenge, as often intentionally spun by the propaganda machine. This article is about rebellion, not change.

[LibertyEagle]

I hear ya, PinkMandy. An old family friend the other day, came pretty close to calling me an American-hater. :eek:. All because I didn't agree with tossing out the 4th amendment and allowing the government to pick up Americans, declaring them enemy combatants and shipping them off God knows where, all without due process of law. She doesn't seem to understand that we aren't against real terrorists being detained, but what about those who are innocent?? I mean, it's like she believes all these people in prison camps were picked up on the field of battle and they were NOT. What happened to the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law. I don't remember anything in the Constitution about someone's neighbor claiming that you have done x or y, or a click of people designated by the President to decide whether you're guilty. What the heck is WRONG with people? It's like their common sense has just flown out the window.

For some reason, some people are having a hard time distinguishing between the public servants in our government (who have perverted it beyond all recognition) and our country. To me, our country is NOT these public servants; instead it is the people and the principles of liberty that our Founders did their best to envelop in the Constitution. THAT is where my allegiance is.

[LibertyEagle]

The article mentions some techniques to get the party back, but it does not address the power centers in place which would prevent this from occurring. We have seen from the top down rabid Dem-like assaults on Conservatism, ideals and methodology. The point is that an infrastructure is in place to prevent any changes. In effect it is too late to modify.

Well, a lot of people thought the same, back when Goldwater ran for President. They were wrong. He didn't win the general, but he darn sure got the Republican nomination. They had many of the same problems back then, as we did now. The difference is, they learned the game and played it better than the hacks. Then, they overwhelmed them with numbers.

Will we likely be able to reclaim the country at the national level? Probably not, at least not anytime soon. HOWEVER, each and every inroad we make at the local and state levels, will only serve us extremely well, when TSHTF. It took a long time for the bad guys to get us where we are right now, and we're not going to turn it around in just a few years.

To each their own, but I'm not giving up.

[Chosen]

For some reason, some people are having a hard time distinguishing between the public servants in our government (who have perverted it beyond all recognition) and our country. To me, our country is NOT these public servants; instead it is the people and the principles of liberty that our Founders did their best to envelop in the Constitution.I think this is a good example of the influence statism has on the general public. The functioning principle of our Republic has always been representation. Now we look at representatives as leaders who take the mantle to navigate their ideas, not ours. This is accepted largely because representation no longer exists.

[Chosen]

Well, a lot of people thought the same, back when Goldwater ran for President. They were wrong. He didn't win the general, but he darn sure got the Republican nomination. They had many of the same problems back then, as we did now. The difference is, they learned the game and played it better than the hacks. Then, they overwhelmed them with numbers.

To each their own, but I'm not giving up.I think we agree on the condition and I would say that I think highly of a parallel push for change from within. But it will not succeed now without the realization of true change. The government has to be reminded from time to time who they serve.

No better example in history of a true representative than in James Knox Polk.

[Conza88]

I think this is a good example of the influence statism has on the general public. The functioning principle of our Republic has always been representation. Now we look at representatives as leaders who take the mantle to navigate their ideas, not ours. This is accepted largely because representation no longer exists.

Jefferson held that the ratio between politicians and population should be 1: 30,000 people.

So you know where your official lives, and he knows you.

Hmmm, 10,000 politicians in the House of Representatives... LOL, that's a few Ron Paul supporters for, friggin, sure! Alas, it was addressed at some point of time in 18-something or other, it was tabled by both parties and never mentioned since.

The conclusion was there wasn't enough room, or they didn't want to build more buildings... :rolleyes:

[Chosen]

Jefferson held that the ratio between politicians and population should be 1: 30,000 people.

So you know where your official lives, and he knows you.

Hmmm, 10,000 politicians in the House of Representatives... LOL, that's a few Ron Paul supporters for, friggin, sure! Alas, it was addressed at some point of time in 18-something or other, it was tabled by both parties and never mentioned since.

The conclusion was there wasn't enough room, or they didn't want to build more buildings... :rolleyes:

That's an interesting ratio, I agree with it.

I learned from this thread you are from Australia. Given the level of rising statism there over the past couple of years, is there a parallel Liberty movement there in reaction to this? Also, are Australians engaged in efforts to restore lost Liberties, similar to the question posed in this thread?

[pinkmandy]

Well, a lot of people thought the same, back when Goldwater ran for President. They were wrong. He didn't win the general, but he darn sure got the Republican nomination. They had many of the same problems back then, as we did now. The difference is, they learned the game and played it better than the hacks. Then, they overwhelmed them with numbers.

Will we likely be able to reclaim the country at the national level? Probably not, at least not anytime soon. HOWEVER, each and every inroad we make at the local and state levels, will only serve us extremely well, when TSHTF. It took a long time for the bad guys to get us where we are right now, and we're not going to turn it around in just a few years.

To each their own, but I'm not giving up.

Yes, but we also have to learn from history. What happened to Goldwater? Did the neocon propaganda work on the masses? It did. It always will. The Repub party is gone, it is something entirely different than it was even then. Unless you can convince the evangelical base that war is not always the answer, that Israel is not a top priority...as long people in power in the Repub party keep swearing their allegiance to Israel and military spending while making empty promises about small govt they will hold that power. Or they can just run on the pro-life, anti gay marriage platform. The best thing, and I know so many disagree and thus the movement is fractured, is to leave the evangelicals to their party and start a new one. They aren't going anywhere, let them have it. In their eyes, the Repub party is a tool to carry out God's work. We cannot change such a deeply held conviction. :(

Remember the resolution to support Israel's right to "defend" herself? ONE Republican in the house voted against it. One. And of course you know who that was. ;) And only 4 democrats voted against it. Out of 435 elected reps. FIVE PEOPLE. :eek:


We need a new party, a different option for people that doesn't have the baggage of the others that exist. A party that embraces what Ron Paul stands for and what so many of us believe. Ron Paul attracted dems, repubs, libertarians, cp'ers, independents...and no existing party truly encompasses his message.

:(

[Conza88]

That's an interesting ratio, I agree with it.

I learned from this thread you are from Australia. Given the level of rising statism there over the past couple of years, is there a parallel Liberty movement there in reaction to this? Also, are Australians engaged in efforts to restore lost Liberties, similar to the question posed in this thread?

Ron Paul allowed people to connect in their local communities the world over. Ron Paul meetups in Australia, went to a few... :D Started getting connected with local people of the same outlook.

In terms of a movement - it is very scattered. Lot of individuals doing different bits of things, but there is no powerhouse like RPF or DailyPaul or LewRockwell, or Mises.org.

Hopefully thats about to change though. ;)

Liberty Australia (http://www.la.org.au) (sorry, shameless promotion. More for the google ranking, than anything else) Run by several Ron Paul supporters here, aims to be a big tent for the Liberty movement down under. Think Lewrockwell + Mises org + DailyPaul + Infowars, all in one. lol

Australians I believe have a far better potential of being rational and being able to reason... but the universities, public schools, news, radio, etc. All spouting socialist crap really doesn't help.

Here, you find more 'middle of the roaders'. Socialism is bad, but so is unmitigated capitalism.

There is no tradition of free markets, etc. but I do see hope. RP sparked that. :D

[Chosen]

Yes, but we also have to learn from history. What happened to Goldwater? Did the neocon propaganda work on the masses? It did. It always will. The Repub party is gone, it is something entirely different than it was even then. Unless you can convince the evangelical base that war is not always the answer, that Israel is not a top priority...as long people in power in the Repub party keep swearing their allegiance to Israel and military spending while making empty promises about small govt they will hold that power. Or they can just run on the pro-life, anti gay marriage platform. The best thing, and I know so many disagree and thus the movement is fractured, is to leave the evangelicals to their party and start a new one. They aren't going anywhere, let them have it. In their eyes, the Repub party is a tool to carry out God's work. We cannot change such a deeply held conviction. :(

Remember the resolution to support Israel's right to "defend" herself? ONE Republican in the house voted against it. One. And of course you know who that was. ;) And only 4 democrats voted against it. Out of 435 elected reps. FIVE PEOPLE. :eek:


We need a new party, a different option for people that doesn't have the baggage of the others that exist. A party that embraces what Ron Paul stands for and what so many of us believe. Ron Paul attracted dems, repubs, libertarians, cp'ers, independents...and no existing party truly encompasses his message.

:(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_7Kp_TapA4

[pinkmandy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_7Kp_TapA4


:D

I remember dancing to that.

[Chosen]

Ron Paul allowed people to connect in their local communities the world over. Ron Paul meetups in Australia, went to a few... :D Started getting connected with local people of the same outlook.

In terms of a movement - it is very scattered. Lot of individuals doing different bits of things, but there is no powerhouse like RPF or DailyPaul or LewRockwell, or Mises.org.

Hopefully thats about to change though. ;)

Liberty Australia (http://www.la.org.au) (sorry, shameless promotion. More for the google ranking, than anything else) Run by several Ron Paul supporters here, aims to be a big tent for the Liberty movement down under. Think Lewrockwell + Mises org + DailyPaul + Infowars, all in one. lol

Australians I believe have a far better potential of being rational and being able to reason... but the universities, public schools, news, radio, etc. All spouting socialist crap really doesn't help.

Here, you find more 'middle of the roaders'. Socialism is bad, but so is unmitigated capitalism.

There is no tradition of free markets, etc. but I do see hope. RP sparked that. :D
Yes, I have met some University Professors from Australia who were walking Marx robots.

My Uncle did some PHD research in Darwin and encountered some of the middle road sympathies you speak of.

The gun grab in Australia was quite tyrannical.

[Chosen]

:D

I remember dancing to that.
lol

I was in 7th or 8th grade when it came out. I remember the term "word up" and it's rise to power. Only to be rivaled later on by "not."

would you agree that many GOP rino's have been engaged in their own word up campaign to the pressures of collectivism?

[pinkmandy]

lol

I was in 7th or 8th grade when it came out. I remember the term "word up" and it's rise to power. Only to be rivaled later on by "not."

would you agree that many GOP rino's have been engaged in their own word up campaign to the pressures of collectivism?

I'm 34 so I'm guessing we're around the same age.

And yes, I would absolutely agree. It's pretty obvious when you try to have a logical conversation with one of them. They seem to have rote responses and have great difficulty peeling back that layer and looking deeper- the ones who do break away become one of us or stick to the "lesser of two evils" propaganda. Original responses aren't something I've come across when dealing with them. I can give a hundred examples why something is wrong, they can give one why they think it is right and usually it's the same one Sean Hannity has been hammering into their brains for the past several years. If you keep asking why you might see heads explode.

[Conza88]

Yes, I have met some University Professors from Australia who were walking Marx robots.

My Uncle did some PHD research in Darwin and encountered some of the middle road sympathies you speak of.

The gun grab in Australia was quite tyrannical.

I did my last essay for my "Government and Business Relations" course, answering the question: "Should government stay out of business?"

Lets say he wasn't a very big fan. I knew my tutor was a middle of the roader, so I set out to directly attack that position. LOL, probs not a smart thing to do.

First quote leading the essay.

“There is simply no other choice than this: either to abstain from interference in the free play of the market, or to delegate the entire management of production and distribution to the government. Either capitalism or socialism: there exists no middle way.” Liberalism, p. 79

Hahaha.. :D

See the left love it when, (doing international relations) I attack the war on terrorism. 38/40. But when it comes to attacking socialism... and defending capitalism.

I get 26/45. YEAAAAH, that's right. I questioned him about it at the end, for some reason I found it amusing, like he actually said to me; "it's great you've gone ahead and done all this individual research, but it didn't use any of the course material."

I also made the point that the very heart of our economic system is socialistic. (5th plank of the communist manifesto - central bank) Haha, he goes "but every country in the world has a central bank!" "There is practically no-one who would agree with you that the economy is socialistic"

Such a tradegy.

First day of Macroeconomics and government policy. I ask the lecturer, "have you ever heard of Austrian Economics?"

- "Why would you want to know about the economics of Austria?"

:rolleyes:

Then you get him saying the bailout will work. :rolleyes: Seriously, a free education I obtained from Mises.org listening to audio, I know more than he did in $100,000 and countless years, doing Economics, phd etc.

*shakes head*

Anyway, this has become some kind of storytelling rant. Sorry, lol.

[LibertyEagle]

All we can do is plant seeds and let them go off and think about it. That usually works better than hammering anyway, which is what I personally have a hard time not doing sometimes. :o

[pinkmandy]

All we can do is plant seeds and let them go off and think about it. That usually works better than hammering anyway, which is what I personally have a hard time not doing sometimes. :o

Agreed. And it will/has worked for some, the seed planting. Just not enough and not as fast as we need...and so many will stay blind because they won't consider anything that doesn't fit in w/their religious views. That's the stickler from my own experiences in rural, red, God fearing Virginia- could be different elsewhere. Add to that they believe we're in end times all that is happening is God's will anyway. We're f'ed.

[LibertyEagle]

Add to that they believe we're in end times all that is happening is God's will anyway. We're f'ed.

Now running into someone like THAT makes me absolutely nuts. Them sitting on their asses, is what got us into this mess and now that we're here, they're going to sit on their asses some more. :rolleyes:

I guess they missed the part about God helping those who help themselves and fighting against His enemies and all the rest.

[pinkmandy]

Now running into someone like THAT makes me absolutely nuts. Them sitting on their asses, is what got us into this mess and now that we're here, they're going to sit on their asses some more. :rolleyes:

I guess they missed the part about God helping those who help themselves and fighting against His enemies and all the rest.

Exactly. They won't help the cause because apparently what will be is pre-ordained. But they sure as hell will go out and vote to make sure God's words come true. :rolleyes:

[Theocrat]

Agreed. And it will/has worked for some, the seed planting. Just not enough and not as fast as we need...and so many will stay blind because they won't consider anything that doesn't fit in w/their religious views. That's the stickler from my own experiences in rural, red, God fearing Virginia- could be different elsewhere. Add to that they believe we're in end times all that is happening is God's will anyway. We're f'ed.

That's because some Christians equate G-O-P with G-O-D. It's sad and shameful, but God always preserves a remnant of faithful, wise people to do His will (1 Kings 19:18). ;)

[pinkmandy]

That's because some Christians equate G-O-P with G-O-D. It's sad and shameful, but God always preserves a remnant of faithful, wise people to do His will (1 Kings 19:18). ;)

Absolutely. I hope I didn't imply I think this of all Christians but I do think the majority of the GOP evang base fit into this profile. I think you guys who don't are a minority but I could be wrong or, again, it could just be true in my little corner of the country. We need you, Christian remnant. You are better equipped to change hearts than many of us.

[Volitzer]

Telling ya the GOP is DOA.

It's all about the Constitution Party now.

www.believeinamerica.com

[Chosen]

By the time 2012 rolls around the damage will be irreparable. There is no time.

[TruthisTreason]

Neither one of the major parties have any strong positions, they are subject to change with the wind. With that in mind, why not join one and attempt to harness the wind and change their policies.

My problem is: I end up speaking my mind way too much and pissing everyone off!!!! :D:D Mainly, because the sheeple are beyond reach!!! ;)