Update on confiscation of materials - I made the front page of local newspaper

[Austin]

Many of you will remember my thread from a couple days ago, detailing the confiscation of my anti-Obama materials (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176203). I had an interview with the Times-Union (my local newspaper) two days ago. They put the article on the front page, albeit on the lower half.

You can read the online edition here at www.timesuniononline.com (http://www.timesuniononline.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=224&ArticleID=38005)

I have also scanned the article, for those that want to see it as it is in the paper..


http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2340/rights1scaledrc0.th.jpg (http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rights1scaledrc0.jpg) ---- http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2760/rights2scaledxp2.th.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rights2scaledxp2.jpg)


1) Recruit more YAL Members - Check
2) Expose Obama's policies to peers - Check
3) Get media attention - DoublePlus Check

:D

[Deborah K]

Congratulations! You make me proud!

[nullvalu]

Wow - their tactics totally backfired - you get way more attention this way. Great job!!!!!

[malkusm]

Sweet! Nice job!

[malkusm]

I was hoping there would be a feedback form on the online version, so that I could see what readers were thinking. You seemed to come across as informed and polite to me though :)

[StudentForPaul08]

Congrats dude!! That is great!

[cthulhufan]

Outstanding! :)

[phill4paul]

Score one for the good guy. You did great man!

[Austin]

I was hoping there would be a feedback form on the online version, so that I could see what readers were thinking. You seemed to come across as informed and polite to me though :)

Yeah, the web site is a kind of pitiful. I expect to see at least one response in the "Letters to the Editor" section in the next few days. I'll be sure to scan and type those up when/if they roll in.

[Lucille]

Awesome! It's a long piece!

Your explanation and objections to the school's(over)reaction were great.

You represented the movement very well! Thank you!

(I'll be keeping good thoughts that you won't suffer any backlash.)

[ronpaulhawaii]

Love the final quote :)


"Although I understand it is school policy, I don't think it is the law, and I think it is violating my First Amendment right by prohibiting me from distributing these materials at the time I planned," Brenneman said.

You deserve a...



http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb19/mkauai/RPFs/Sp76-1.png

:D

[tron paul]

Good Job!

You guys are Heroes of the rEVOLution!!!

And you now have tickets in the Lawsuit Lottery. I suggest you sue everyone involved and donate your winnings to the CFL.

Contact Landmark Legal and ACLU, they'll have your back.

Or start a Chip-In and I'll throw in the first $20 towards your retainer fees.

[Dorfsmith]

Wow - their tactics totally backfired - you get way more attention this way. Great job!!!!!

My thoughts exactly. Great work :cool:

[angelatc]

That's awesome.

Am I the only one who finds total irony in their policy that says that the government (a la the school) must approve items to be sure they stand for American democratic values?

Free speech much be approved!

You really did come off as polite and well spoken. That means so much!

[kathy88]

Excellent job. Keep up the good fight!

[Austin]

Oh yeah, props to BJ Lawson for giving me the "The government has a rule book" line. It came in handy. :D

[liberteebell]

:cool::cool::cool:

[Sandra]

:D

[Buffalo Bruce]

Apparently, nothing that Obama said in his speech being spoon fed to the students could have possibly disturbed anyone.

[decatren]

Congrats!

[Cowlesy]

These are by far my favorite posts on Ron Paul Forums.

Great work!!!!

[Dequeant]

Good job m8, you made me proud.

I also like how you made it a point to clarify that you did not intend to do anything that would "interfere with the learning environment". Nearly the exact wording of the supreme court ruling that I cited which protects your right to do exactly what you were doing. Simply put, if it is a public school: U.S. Constitution > School Policy

[Austin]

Good job m8, you made me proud.

I also like how you made it a point to clarify that you did not intend to do anything that would "interfere with the learning environment". Nearly the exact wording of the supreme court ruling that I cited which protects your right to do exactly what you were doing. Simply put, if it is a public school: U.S. Constitution > School Policy

Precisely the reason I chose to say that the way I did. ;)

Thanks bud.

[surf]

vice principal Ferber... ha ha

good job

[Agent CSL]

One of the BEST things I've seen on RPF.

GREAT JOOOOOOOOOOOOB! :D

[Austin]

I've been reading through the Supreme Court's opinion on the Tinker case... it only further affirms that what I planned on doing was completely legal. In the words of the court itself, my practice of free speech is "... the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans ..."



The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom--this kind of openness--that is [509] the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.

Source (http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html)

[Austin]

Wow, I am going to push the envelope on this.. This is plain as day, they had no right to take the materials and prevent me from distributing them. ... I knew this from the beginning, but now I have a Supreme Court case to back me up 100%.


... there was a fear that the school would be disrupted if the materials were passed out


But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression

I mean, this is an open and shut case. It's almost as if the court's opinion is aimed directly at the events that happened at my school.

[lucius]

Nicely done--we keep our rights through exercising them. You made it that much easier for the person that comes after you. Wonderful accomplishment--press on...

[Dequeant]

So I trust you are going to hand out the materials, school be damned? They've all looked at the materials you were going to hand out. This meets their school rules that you have to give them notice of the materials you'll be handing out. Just between us, that is more of a courtesy than anything, since they have no right to stop you from handing them out even if they do not approve.

Be professional. You won't win hearts and minds by being confrontational. Talk to your principal and let him know that you plan on handing out the materials they took from you the first time. Be courteous, but explain to him that after further research you believe that handing out the materials is your first amendment RIGHT. But be firm, do not allow him to stop, impede, or slow you down. Kill him with kindness, but don't let him confuse it with weakness. Bringing a printout of the majority opinion in the Tinker case will probably make things go much smoother if he disapproves. It may be his school, but it's your right.

Not to mention, you have a good shot at a follow-up ad in the paper after you hand them out. I would at the very least bring it up with the reporter. If he tries to stop you, you can cite the supreme court case to the principal and the reporter. If he allows you to hand them out, you can request the reporter write a follow-up thanking the school. With small local papers, this is the sort of thing they eat up.

Good luck.

[tmg19103]

Wow, I am going to push the envelope on this.. This is plain as day, they had no right to take the materials and prevent me from distributing them. ... I knew this from the beginning, but now I have a Supreme Court case to back me up 100%.





I mean, this is an open and shut case. It's almost as if the court's opinion is aimed directly at the events that happened at my school.

I wouldn't say it is an open and shut case, but if you want to pursue this I would look up your state ACLU webpage, which will then have local offices, and file a complaint with them, inclusive of what happened, the newspaper article and any case law you feel may be relevant and say you wish to continue to exercise your rights but your school won't let you.

If they take the case, they will do so for free, and expect some bigtime press.

[AdamT]

Excellent!

[Austin]

So I trust you are going to hand out the materials, school be damned? They've all looked at the materials you were going to hand out. This meets their school rules that you have to give them notice of the materials you'll be handing out. Just between us, that is more of a courtesy than anything, since they have no right to stop you from handing them out even if they do not approve.

Be professional. You won't win hearts and minds by being confrontational. Talk to your principal and let him know that you plan on handing out the materials they took from you the first time. Be courteous, but explain to him that after further research you believe that handing out the materials is your first amendment RIGHT. But be firm, do not allow him to stop, impede, or slow you down. Kill him with kindness, but don't let him confuse it with weakness. Bringing a printout of the majority opinion in the Tinker case will probably make things go much smoother if he disapproves. It may be his school, but it's your right.

Not to mention, you have a good shot at a follow-up ad in the paper after you hand them out. I would at the very least bring it up with the reporter. If he tries to stop you, you can cite the supreme court case to the principal and the reporter. If he allows you to hand them out, you can request the reporter write a follow-up thanking the school. With small local papers, this is the sort of thing they eat up.

Good luck.

I haven't set on distributing the same materials, but it's not out of the question. I'm currently working on a couple other ideas..



I wouldn't say it is an open and shut case, but if you want to pursue this I would look up your state ACLU webpage, which will then have local offices, and file a complaint with them, inclusive of what happened, the newspaper article and any case law you feel may be relevant and say you wish to continue to exercise your rights but your school won't let you.

If they take the case, they will do so for free, and expect some bigtime press.

You are correct. It's not an open and shut case.. discovering the obvious link between Mr. Kline's statement and the court's opinion just got me all worked up, and I exaggerated a bit. :o

I took a look at Indiana's ACLU contact page, and I considered getting a hold of them. I was discouraged; however, when I saw that I gotten at least 2 emails from the national organization urging members to thank Obama. I'm not entirely sure they will support me, but it is worth a try.

That's another reason I plan on trying something slightly different. I think that if the issue is over something irrelevant to Obama (so basically not the stuff I was passing out) then the ACLU will be more inclined to help me out...

My mind is racing right now.. I need to take a quick break. I'm going to grab a bite to eat and I'll be back to discuss this further. Thanks again folks.

[Dequeant]

If they take the case, they will do so for free, and expect some bigtime press.

They take the case for free because it costs them nothing. I have gone to a few ACLU meetings (though I think they are too focused on homosexual discrimination and not focused enough on anything else) and one of the main advantages of their organization, is that their legal fees are actually paid by those they go against in court.

To be quite honest, even if the ACLU will not take your case, you will not have much trouble finding a lawyer on your own. In cases where the government is found to violate an individual's rights, any legal fees that individual incurs defending those rights is paid by the violator. Needless to say, with such an open and shut case (and contrary to the previous reply, this IS an open and shut case) most lawyers would be fighting over the payday. The ACLU does this to pay for their legal fees, but there is absolutely nothing that will prevent you from using this as well. After all, it's your right.

§ 1988. Proceedings in vindication of civil rights (http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001988----000-.html)

(b) Attorney’s fees
In any action or proceeding to enforce a provision of sections 1981, 1981a, 1982, 1983, 1985, and 1986 of this title, title IX of Public Law 92–318 [20 U.S.C. 1681 et seq.], the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 [42 U.S.C. 2000bb et seq.], the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000 [42 U.S.C. 2000cc et seq.], title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 [42 U.S.C. 2000d et seq.], or section 13981 of this title, the court, in its discretion, may allow the prevailing party, other than the United States, a reasonable attorney’s fee as part of the costs, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity such officer shall not be held liable for any costs, including attorney’s fees, unless such action was clearly in excess of such officer’s jurisdiction.
(c) Expert fees
In awarding an attorney’s fee under subsection (b) of this section in any action or proceeding to enforce a provision of section 1981 or 1981a of this title, the court, in its discretion, may include expert fees as part of the attorney’s fee.

Just your friendly neighborhood jailhouse lawyer trying to help out ;)

EDIT: You may want to do a little research on the statutes that allow you to recoup your attorney's fees. I can find many cases in which violations of freedom of speech allowed the individual to recoup attorney's fees, but I cannot find in which statute exactly it is applicable under this law.

[satchelmcqueen]

way to go man! good job on being respectful yet getting your point in, which is more control than i have sometimes.

[amy31416]

Completely and entirely awesome. Hats off!

[Austin]

One last shameless bump before I go... I decided to search the headline of the Times-Union article on Google and found that someone had already submitted it to digg!

If you would, digg/shout/favorite to get this pressed to the front page.

[malkusm]

Hope you don't mind that I added on you on Facebook :D

[Austin]

Hope you don't mind that I added on you on Facebook :D

Not at all. :D

All right guys, I'm really going to leave this time... Haha, I'm too excited to leave my computer... I was getting ready to leave, and I came up with the excuse "I need to let my car warm up" so I could come back and learn some more about the potential for a court case on it.

I love you guys. :D

[UtahApocalypse]

Wow, I am going to push the envelope on this.. This is plain as day, they had no right to take the materials and prevent me from distributing them. ... I knew this from the beginning, but now I have a Supreme Court case to back me up 100%.

I mean, this is an open and shut case. It's almost as if the court's opinion is aimed directly at the events that happened at my school.

Maybe the next step is to advise your scholl that based on your research of Supreme Court cases that you have a right to pass out the litriture. Then add that you Intend to do just that. Let them know that should they attempt to deny your rights in any way, shape, or form that you will have national news and file court actions against all those involved.

I'm betting they crap twinkies and back off :D

[Michael Landon]

Excellent. It looks like you achieved even greater publicity than what you could have imagined. I would really like you to get the ACLU involved in taking the school to court for violating your 1st Amendment rights.

Also, I just sent an e-mail to the editor of your newspaper. Here it is:

Dear Editor of the Times-Union,

I just finished reading your article titled "Student Thinks School Violated 1st Amendment Rights" in your January 23rd, 2009 online edition of your newspaper.
Link: http://www.timesuniononline.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=224&ArticleID=38005

It is my belief that the school did indeed violate his 1st Amendment Rights. You only need to look at the Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District case the Supreme Court ruled on February 24, 1969. In that case, three students of the aforementioned public school were suspended from school because they wore black armband in protest of the United States Government's policy in Vietnam.

The Supreme Court explained, "as we have discussed, the record does not demonstrate any facts which might reasonably have led school authorities to forecast substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities, and no disturbances or disorders on the school premises in fact occurred. These petitioners merely went about their ordained rounds in school. Their deviation consisted only in wearing on their sleeve a band of black cloth, not more than two inches wide. They wore it to exhibit their disapproval of the Vietnam hostilities and their advocacy of a truce, to make their views known, and, by their example, to influence others to adopt them. They neither interrupted school activities nor sought to intrude in the school affairs or the lives of others. They caused discussion outside of the classrooms, but no interference with work and no disorder. In the circumstances, our Constitution does not permit officials of the State to deny their form of expression."

According to this ruling, the school in your article did indeed violate the student's rights under the 1st Amendment. If you would like to read the Supreme Court's entire verdict on the aforementioned case you can find it at this link:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html

My hope is that the students involved in your article would hire an attorney to sue the school on the grounds that it violated the student's rights. I'm sure that once the ACLU hears about this instance they, too, will most likely get involved.

Remember that the school's policies do not overrule the laws set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Just a reminder to those who aren't familiar with the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution it states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

- ML

[A. Havnes]

These are my favorite threads! I was impressed by the way you sounded informed, calm, and like a true American. I also liked that you mentioned that you were able to do similar thing in the past without getting in trouble.

[Andrew Ryan]

Digg link:

http://digg.com/politics/Student_Thinks_School_Violated_1st_Amendment_Right s?FC=PRCP2#

[qwerty]

Many of you will remember my thread from a couple days ago, detailing the confiscation of my anti-Obama materials (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176203). I had an interview with the Times-Union (my local newspaper) two days ago. They put the article on the front page, albeit on the lower half.

You can read the online edition here at www.timesuniononline.com (http://www.timesuniononline.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=224&ArticleID=38005)

I have also scanned the article, for those that want to see it as it is in the paper..


http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2340/rights1scaledrc0.th.jpg (http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rights1scaledrc0.jpg) ---- http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2760/rights2scaledxp2.th.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rights2scaledxp2.jpg)


1) Recruit more YAL Members - Check
2) Expose Obama's policies to peers - Check
3) Get media attention - DoublePlus Check

:D

AWESOME!


:cool:

[Austin]

These are my favorite threads! I was impressed by the way you sounded informed, calm, and like a true American. I also liked that you mentioned that you were able to do similar thing in the past without getting in trouble.

Thanks, that means a lot!

I was very glad that I brought my friend along, because he is the one that reminded me of our previous activities. The funny thing is, when we passed out slim jims and got signatures, it was during class and still no complaints were made. Additionally, it wasn't a one day thing. We were passing out stuff every day for weeks straight. Never heard a word.

[mediahasyou]

You should contact other press in your area. The press is pretty passionate about the 1st amendment.

[Austin]

You should contact other press in your area. The press is pretty passionate about the 1st amendment.

I'll keep this in mind. I live in such a small town though, so Times-Union is about the only newspaper we have. There is one other, but the person who runs is a fervant Obama supporter; I don't think the story would fly. He also happens to be a teacher at my school.

[mediahasyou]

I'll keep this in mind. I live in such a small town though, so Times-Union is about the only newspaper we have. There is one other, but the person who runs is a fervant Obama supporter; I don't think the story would fly. He also happens to be a teacher at my school.

Try bigger than local. Is Indianapolis near Warsaw?

[SirNim]

Blowback at its finest.

[Anti Federalist]

Agreed!

Well done!


These are by far my favorite posts on Ron Paul Forums.

Great work!!!!

[Austin]

Try bigger than local. Is Indianapolis near Warsaw?

Indianapolis is about 3 hours away from Warsaw.

[Austin]

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j130/Krippy413/wchsiswatchingyou-1.png

This, along with the quote from Mr. Kline, and the quote from the SCOTUS will somehow be incorporated into a t-shirt..

[tremendoustie]

Great job Krippy!! :cool:

[Malakai]

Unfortunately the education-industrial-complex is just like the rest of them, a monopoly on power and control that they will keep at any cost.
You guys teaching your peers still in school (an age when you can actually do some good, keep up the fight!) about constitutional libertarianism is a direct threat to the system, they will not like it.

[Dequeant]

Don't make a public spectacle out of this Krippy. Take them to court, make them change their policies, and enjoy the publicity that ensues. T-Shirts, fliers, and pamphlets serve their purpose, but there is a distinct line where they have to stop and legal proceeding should begin. Where all the "rallying" material has to be put down and you have to put on a suit and be professional. They've crossed that line. I urge you, don't make a spectacle out of it. A spectacle will cause you far more legal ill than a court case (or a threat of a court case).

Just my suggestion. You've done great so far.

[ronpaulhawaii]

Don't make a public spectacle out of this Krippy. Take them to court, make them change their policies, and enjoy the publicity that ensues. T-Shirts, fliers, and pamphlets serve their purpose, but there is a distinct line where they have to stop and legal proceeding should begin. Where all the "rallying" material has to be put down and you have to put on a suit and be professional. They've crossed that line. I urge you, don't make a spectacle out of it. A spectacle will cause you far more legal ill than a court case (or a threat of a court case).

Just my suggestion. You've done great so far.

+1

[Austin]

Don't make a public spectacle out of this Krippy. Take them to court, make them change their policies, and enjoy the publicity that ensues. T-Shirts, fliers, and pamphlets serve their purpose, but there is a distinct line where they have to stop and legal proceeding should begin. Where all the "rallying" material has to be put down and you have to put on a suit and be professional. They've crossed that line. I urge you, don't make a spectacle out of it. A spectacle will cause you far more legal ill than a court case (or a threat of a court case).

Just my suggestion. You've done great so far.

I will keep that in mind. There is still a lot that must happen before I decide to make the T-shirts. First, I'm waiting for a response back from the central administration on the materials. Hopefully, they'll decide to let me distribute the materials. Even if they decide against, I'm going to talk with them before I do anything drastic. I don't want to tarnish the good image I have with the administration by attacking them with t-shirts... I won't do anything without completely thinking out the different consequences first. Thanks for the reminder.


What is your advice on taking them to court?

[Dequeant]

What is your advice on taking them to court?

Do it. Try and contact the ACLU. If they won't represent you or take too long getting back to you, contact a lawyer in your area. Explain the situation to him about what happened exactly. If he asks about payment, it may be of some help with this to point him towards the law I cited that entitles you to "reasonable attorney fees" in cases such as yours. Tell him that any fees that come of it will go to him.

Once you find the right attorney (one that specializes in cases like this) you won't have trouble finding one to represent you. Yours is a pretty easy case to win, and the lawyers fees are going to be paid by the government. It's like money in the bank to them.

[liberteebell]

education-industrial-complex

Good one!

[DXDoug]

perfect work guy great stuff :) :D . your up there with the 10 foot pole guy in my mind

[tremendoustie]

perfect work guy great stuff :) :D . your up there with the 10 foot pole guy in my mind

10 foot pole guy!!! Lmao, I'd forgotten about that, that was awesome. :D

[Austin]

perfect work guy great stuff :) :D . your up there with the 10 foot pole guy in my mind

Thanks, but there's no way I could ever amount to 10 foot pole guy.

He's in a whole 'nother league! :D

[speciallyblend]

Thanks, but there's no way I could ever amount to 10 foot pole guy.

He's in a whole 'nother league! :D

your right up there in my book;) GREAT JOB as they say here in Colorado, STAND UP

from the FLOBOTS/ STAND UP!!!!!

[SnappleLlama]

This is so awesome, I've got llama tingles up and down my spine! Way to go!!

[Austin]

One more update...

Two letters to the editor were published on Monday in favor of us.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/569/letter1ve9.th.png (http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=letter1ve9.png) --- http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6276/letter2ie8.th.png (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=letter2ie8.png)

[Melissa]

Nice Job Austin if you need any help that I or any meetup members can help with let me know. Did the journal or news in fort wayne pick any of this up?

[LibertyEagle]

Just awesome!

You've made us proud, Krippy. Keep up the great work. :)

[Austin]

Thanks guys. School was canceled today so I didn't get a chance to talk to the administrator.

Oh, and if I recall correctly, the second letter is from someone on the forums!

[UtahApocalypse]

Blowback!! Absolutely Priceless!!

[Austin]

Blowback!! Absolutely Priceless!!

My CISCO instructor (1st and 2nd period) is also our schools network administrator, so he has an office at the central building. He said the school has also gotten a few very opinionated emails (in favor of our actions). He also pointed out that an article was written about the event in the Arizona Conservative.

Satire Article
(http://www.azconservative.org/Semmens1.htm)

[Michael Landon]

I'm a little shocked to see that they printed my letter. It's good to see that the paper has the balls to keep the pressure on the school administration by keeping this in the news.

Have you contacted the ACLU to help yet? Although this does bring up the possibility that they would end up defending someone who was speaking out against their "personal savior" Barack Obama. Off topic, I can't believe how many e-mails I get from the ACLU where they basically bow at this feet. It's rather ridiculous.

Anyway, let us know how this all plays out.

- ML

[angelatc]

Krippy, look here: http://volokh.com/posts/1233205927.shtml

Hot off the presses. This decision related to a college but I think you might find it interesting.

[Michael Landon]

Anything new to report?

- ML