My County Won't Take my money! Help needed!

[Jordan]

I got a traffic ticket, stupid ridiculous ticket I should have never gotten.

Anyway, I went in to pay it with $115.50 in all change, every last cent of it. And guess what?

They wouldn't take it.

The lady said it had to be rolled. I asked for paperwork or some statute that makes coinage that is not rolled nontender. No dice.

They must know how worthless the dollar is know. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm going back on Monday but I'm going to be armed and ready. I need sources, citations, something to tell them that "you're going to take my money and I'm not rolling it for you."

Any help, I live in Indiana BTW.

[LibertyEagle]

No, they're just too lazy to count out 115 dollars in change. Either that, or they're unable, because they too are products of the public school system.

[Aldanga]

Look in your city statutes for what type of payment is accepted for traffic tickets (or fines in general). That should give you pretty solid ground.

[Jordan]

Look in your city statutes for what type of payment is accepted for traffic tickets (or fines in general). That should give you pretty solid ground.

Hmm... I'm looking now but I can't even find the city statutes online. Damn I hate the government.

Evansville Indiana is what I'm looking for.

[Kludge]

I don't think the "government" gives a damn what you do. You'd just be giving someone a shitty day.

[gls]

AFAIK they don't have to accept it. FRNs might be "legal tender for all purposes public or private" but change is another story. Try taking it to the bank...they should be able to exchange it for you or at least give you the papers to roll it up. Or you can take it to a Coinstar machine and trade it straight up (no charge) for an amazon.com gift card. In that case you'd have to pay the ticket with some other source of funds, obviously.

Either way, I'd quickly inspect it for any pre-65 silver first.

[SirNim]

"Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

-source (http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqcur.htm)

[gls]

"Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

-source (http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqcur.htm)

Interesting... that surprises me. It seems like it opens up an easy avenue for protest (like the OP is apparently trying to do).

[Jordan]

Interesting... that surprises me. It seems like it opens up an easy avenue for protest (like the OP is apparently trying to do).

It has been an easy avenue for protest in Indiana. Check out here:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/oddities/1033920/man_pays_big_tax_bill_in_coins_1_bills/index.html

This year he paid in all coins.

But my city apparently wont take change unless its wrapped. I didn't know wrapping it was required to make it legal tender.

[SirNim]

I didn't know wrapping it was required to make it legal tender.Their policy is clearly afoul of U.S. Code.

[Jordan]

Their policy is clearly afoul of U.S. Code.

Clearly, unfortunately government doesn't care when they break the law, only when you do.

[SirNim]

Clearly, unfortunately government doesn't care when they break the law, only when you do.
I heard of a similar situation a few months ago in which the office "insisted" that the payer remain at the office while his box of coins was counted and verified, which would be somewhat of a compromise scenario--they take it, but you've got to wait until they're done with it. fyi

[fr33domfightr]

Write a check with disappearing ink. It'll get passed the person at the window, but can't be cashed later...hehe.


FF

[BeFranklin]

I got a traffic ticket, stupid ridiculous ticket I should have never gotten.

Anyway, I went in to pay it with $115.50 in all change, every last cent of it. And guess what?

They wouldn't take it.

The lady said it had to be rolled. I asked for paperwork or some statute that makes coinage that is not rolled nontender. No dice.

They must know how worthless the dollar is know. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm going back on Monday but I'm going to be armed and ready. I need sources, citations, something to tell them that "you're going to take my money and I'm not rolling it for you."

Any help, I live in Indiana BTW.

This is interesting. It sounds like a great way to appeal, and then argue the gold and silver standard.

I can not pay this parket ticket because in fact there is no legal money to pay it in. Thanks for not accepting my change to help prove this point ;)

Not saying you can do this by Monday, but I'm seeing someone could do it this way.

[Jordan]

I heard of a similar situation a few months ago in which the office "insisted" that the payer remain at the office while his box of coins was counted and verified, which would be somewhat of a compromise scenario--they take it, but you've got to wait until they're done with it. fyi

Trust me I've got all the time in the world and was fully prepared to wait. I brought a foldout chair in my backpack with me :D

I'm going back with the US code in hand, if they don't take it then I dont know. They just have to. Ha

[BeFranklin]

FYI: There seems to be a lot of support for the gold standard in Indiana. The RP money guy was from there. Also this just recently:

State Senator Files Gold Money Bill
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread428260/pg1

[Sandra]

I got a traffic ticket, stupid ridiculous ticket I should have never gotten.

Anyway, I went in to pay it with $115.50 in all change, every last cent of it. And guess what?

They wouldn't take it.

The lady said it had to be rolled. I asked for paperwork or some statute that makes coinage that is not rolled nontender. No dice.

They must know how worthless the dollar is know. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm going back on Monday but I'm going to be armed and ready. I need sources, citations, something to tell them that "you're going to take my money and I'm not rolling it for you."

Any help, I live in Indiana BTW.

They are not refusing your payment. Per banking policy, their bank won't take large amounts of unrolled coins. They are also not responsible for the costs and time to roll your coins. Where's personal responsibility ?

[BeFranklin]

They are not refusing your payment. Per banking policy, their bank won't take large amounts of unrolled coins. They are also not responsible for the costs and time to roll your coins. Where's personal responsibility ?

Its either a tender for payment of legal debts like taxes or parking tickets or it is not.

This isn't a bank. This is a state not accepting it, when the constitution clearly says they can't require payment in other than gold and silver in the first place.

[Jordan]

They are not refusing your payment. Per banking policy, their bank won't take large amounts of unrolled coins. They are also not responsible for the costs and time to roll your coins. Where's personal responsibility ?

Its not about personal responsibility. Obviously I owe this and I am willing to pay it.

Its about the fact that they want $115.50 for a traffic offense. $115? Seriously! Thats a lot of money for forgetting a license at home.

[Sandra]

Its not about personal responsibility. Obviously I owe this and I am willing to pay it.

Its about the fact that they want $115.50 for a traffic offense. $115? Seriously! Thats a lot of money for forgetting a license at home.

I got a 100.00 ticket for the same thing. Just pay it and put your license in a wallet or something that's always with you.

[BeFranklin]

Contact the office of this guy, and see if you can get any help. The state shouldn't be creating rules for legal acceptance of tender when they aren't allowed to use anything but gold and silver in the first place. That they've devalued the change so much that its hard to use is their fault, not yours. They shouldn't have devauled the change in the first place by making it cheap metal which is unconstitutional.

Indianapolis, Indiana -- State Senator Greg Walker of District 41,

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

Take her advice and wrap it. With duct tape.

[BeFranklin]

I got a 100.00 ticket for the same thing. Just pay it and put your license in a wallet or something that's always with you.

Yes, and we should have paid taxes on our tea too :rolleyes: If he wants to do it and has time, let him.

Should see if you can't make an argument like the above first, and contact the staff of that senator to see if you can find an ally or two.

[Sandra]

Contact the office of this guy, and see if you can get any help. The state shouldn't be creating rules for legal acceptance of tender when they aren't allow to use anything but gold and silver in the first place. That they've devalued the change so much that its hard to use is their fault, not yours. They shouldn't have devauled the change in the first place by making it cheap metal which is unconstitutional.

Indianapolis, Indiana -- State Senator Greg Walker of District 41,
This crap has been brought to court in every state. The ruling will be the same . roll it.

I wouldn't take it either if it weren't rolled. Would you?

[devil21]

Many local ordinance laws and rules can be found at www.municode.com.

[Jordan]

This crap has been brought to court in every state. The ruling will be the same . roll it.

I wouldn't take it either if it weren't rolled. Would you?

Does rolling it make it legal tender. The thing is I gave them exactly how much they needed in legal tender. It is their responsibility to take care of it.

[Jordan]

Many local ordinance laws and rules can be found at www.municode.com.

Thanks for the link, unfortunately my city isnt covered. :(

[BeFranklin]

This crap has been brought to court in every state. The ruling will be the same . roll it.

I wouldn't take it either if it weren't rolled. Would you?

The only reason its hard to count is because its been devalued by the governmnet not following the law.

I didn't say to take it to court. The poster is from Indiana, and there is a movement there with gold and silver. Make an issue of it in the press and not the court, and create a lot of noise.

[brandon]

I got a traffic ticket, stupid ridiculous ticket I should have never gotten.

Anyway, I went in to pay it with $115.50 in all change, every last cent of it. And guess what?

They wouldn't take it.

The lady said it had to be rolled. I asked for paperwork or some statute that makes coinage that is not rolled nontender. No dice.

They must know how worthless the dollar is know. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm going back on Monday but I'm going to be armed and ready. I need sources, citations, something to tell them that "you're going to take my money and I'm not rolling it for you."

Any help, I live in Indiana BTW.

Oh man, I think I remember seeing a video about this on youtube...like local news coverage of your story or something. Hah, figures you're a Ron Paul supporter. Good luck!

[Jordan]

The only reason its hard to count is because its been devalued by the governmnet not following the law.

I didn't say to take it to court. The poster is from Indiana, and there is a movement there with gold and silver. Make an issue of it in the press and not the court, and create a lot of noise.

Theres a lot of interest here too. I'm from the hometown of the Liberty Dollar, we'll see what interesting things RPFers can come up with over the weekend. If its not paying in change, I can make this protest worth something somehow.

[Jordan]

Oh man, I think I remember seeing a video about this on youtube...like local news coverage of your story or something. Hah, figures you're a Ron Paul supporter. Good luck!

Ha I wish. That was someone who paid a boatload of property taxes in dollars, then the next year in $1 gold coins. Next year he threatened with quarters, dimes etc down the line each year.

[ihsv]

Something like this might be worth calling a laywer and getting his advice. Also, you might want to call the local media and see if they can follow you with a camera. That always makes the lobotomized monkeys freak out. More than likely they'll tell you you're not allowed to film there. That's another issue you can take up with the lawyer beforehand.

[Sandra]

Jordan, ask yourself " if I do this, will I be forced to take payment like this"?

[Jordan]

Jordan, ask yourself " if I do this, will I be forced to take payment like this"?

I have no problems taking a payment like that. My bank does conversions to cash for free like many others, without it being wrapped and without bitching about it.

[LittleLightShining]

Trust me I've got all the time in the world and was fully prepared to wait. I brought a foldout chair in my backpack with me :D

I'm going back with the US code in hand, if they don't take it then I dont know. They just have to. HaThey have to take it. Bring a video camera. Tell them to show you where it says coins must be rolled. If you have the time you should stand firm on this one.


Jordan, ask yourself " if I do this, will I be forced to take payment like this"?

What difference does it make? It's money and at least coins have intrinsic value.

[BeFranklin]

Jordan, ask yourself " if I do this, will I be forced to take payment like this"?

Not under the constitution. Legal tender just means what the government forces you to use legally, like in taxes, fines, and judgements from courts when you lose.

Since the governmnet is suppose to be the servant, I think asking yourself first is this how my servant is suppose to be acting is more relevant here.

[angelatc]

I have no problems taking a payment like that. My bank does conversions to cash for free like many others, without it being wrapped and without bitching about it.

As they should. They have big coin counting machines for just this purpose.

[Goldwater64]

I tend to agree with you...I would guess their arguement would go something like this:

Rolling the coins doesn't make them "legal tender" or "not legal tender" but rather it is an office policy, just like having to wait in line or having to pay during business hours. For instance, if you show up with the amount you owe at 2am, they don't have to take it. If you show up with coins unrolled, they don't have to take it.

I still side with you...but to be fair, that will probably be their response.

[satchelmcqueen]

use .50 cent pieces or just 1 dollar bills if this dont work.

[Michael Landon]

I would take it to court. Not the unacceptance of your money but the traffic offense. By paying the ticket you are pleading guilty and thus cannot argue your innocence. Going to court will allow you have the possibility of keeping the offense off your record, but you'll probably still end up paying the fine. Be sure to set up a meeting with the prosecuting attorney and plea bargain down the offense to just the fine with no mark on your record. I have an attorney in Minnesota that deals with traffic offenses all the time and that's his recommendation. Once I find a link to his law office, I'm sure he'd be happy to give you the correct way to go about doing this.

Strauss, Jerry - Strauss & Goldberger
(612) 335-8877
250 2nd Ave S, #286, Minneapolis, MN 55401

He does a spot on a local sports talk radio program where he accepts calls and he ALWAYS tells people to set up a pre-trial meeting and try to plead down the ticket to keep it off your record. The main thing is to keep your record clean.

- ML

[Dequeant]

Pretty ironic, since technically you could be paying as much as double since copper pennies are actually worth 2 cents.

They should thank you for your charity!

[AdamT]

Pay with $1 bills. Oh, I suppose they'll say those have to be wrapped....

[Jordan]

I would take it to court. Not the unacceptance of your money but the traffic offense. By paying the ticket you are pleading guilty and thus cannot argue your innocence. Going to court will allow you have the possibility of keeping the offense off your record, but you'll probably still end up paying the fine. Be sure to set up a meeting with the prosecuting attorney and plea bargain down the offense to just the fine with no mark on your record. I have an attorney in Minnesota that deals with traffic offenses all the time and that's his recommendation. Once I find a link to his law office, I'm sure he'd be happy to give you the correct way to go about doing this.

Strauss, Jerry - Strauss & Goldberger
(612) 335-8877
250 2nd Ave S, #286, Minneapolis, MN 55401

He does a spot on a local sports talk radio program where he accepts calls and he ALWAYS tells people to set up a pre-trial meeting and try to plead down the ticket to keep it off your record. The main thing is to keep your record clean.

- ML

The infraction I got does not come with points. Its basically I give the government money for forgetting something at home, not for endangering anyone nor for speeding or breaking any law. I got pulled over to fill a quota and got a $115 ticket for not having my license.

At any rate, going to court on Monday is a possibility. In the end I'll owe the same amount of money and have to blow hours of my time.

I've still got a weekend in between so we'll see how it pans out.

[Knightskye]

Why do I think you were just trying to be an ass?

You'd be okay sitting there for an hour or two, sliding coins from left to right and counting them slowly?

[sevin]

Why do I think you were just trying to be an ass?

You'd be okay sitting there for an hour or two, sliding coins from left to right and counting them slowly?

This. Why are we wasting our time debating whether they should have to count out $115 in change? Why not just take it to the bank and get cash for it like any normal person would?

[Sandra]

This. Why are we wasting our time debating whether they should have to count out $115 in change? Why not just take it to the bank and get cash for it like any normal person would?


Methinks he was deliberately being an ass. Go Ron Paul?

[Michael Landon]

The infraction I got does not come with points. Its basically I give the government money for forgetting something at home, not for endangering anyone nor for speeding or breaking any law. I got pulled over to fill a quota and got a $115 ticket for not having my license.

At any rate, going to court on Monday is a possibility. In the end I'll owe the same amount of money and have to blow hours of my time.

I've still got a weekend in between so we'll see how it pans out.

Oh, well in that case, nevermind. :)

- ML

[Jordan]

Why do I think you were just trying to be an ass?

You'd be okay sitting there for an hour or two, sliding coins from left to right and counting them slowly?

Well if it costs my city $115.50 to look up my license information in their computers then they're going to earn every last dime of it.


This. Why are we wasting our time debating whether they should have to count out $115 in change? Why not just take it to the bank and get cash for it like any normal person would?

Because cash isn't protest. But thanks for the concern.


Methinks he was deliberately being an ass. Go Ron Paul?

Nothing that I was doing had anything to do with Ron Paul, I wasn't going in there to throw a Ron Paul fit.

I did this to protest paying $115.50 because the police officer had to look my information up. Apparently it costs the city $115.50 to pull my information off the computers. Thats ridiculous.

I did not endanger the public and possibly only hurt myself in the chance of a terrible accident. But we're libertarians right, if I am only hurting myself why should I pay someone else for it?

[JohnMeridith]

Look at all of the local gestapo sympathizers in this thread...sickening.

[forsmant]

Don't be an ass and give them some cash.

[steve005]

you're lucky they didn't arrest you

[t0rnado]

He's not being an 'ass'. The cop that stopped him and the government that is charging him $115.50 are the ones who are being annoying. This is a peaceful way of protesting a stupid law. $115.50 for forgetting your license is a joke.


you're lucky they didn't arrest you

The cops are lucky he didn't shoot them for stopping him.

[Knightskye]

Methinks he was deliberately being an ass. Go Ron Paul?

Amen.


Well if it costs my city $115.50 to look up my license information in their computers then they're going to earn every last dime of it.

In your original post, you said you got a traffic ticket.

What was the ticket for?

[Sandra]

Jordan, our movement doesn't take away your communities laws and your being required to live by them. It's meant to put reigns on the Federal government.

[PlzPeopleWakeUp]

nt

[lucynuts]

Keep the coins they'll be worth more than the paper dollars, last year I remember an article about the nickel being worth 6 cents, thats if it were melted down. Also there are many types of coins that you should keep like mercury dimes if you see them, they are made of silver previous to 1946 I believe the same is true for some quarters, just be careful.

I know its a great way to make a protest to pay in coins but seriously its the paper thats screwed not the coins.

[SirNim]

Jordan, our movement doesn't take away your communities laws and your being required to live by them. It's meant to put reigns on the Federal government.
This is a policy, not a law, which is equivalent to saying all municipal property taxes must be paid in $5 bills taped to $50 bills, no exceptions. The combination of a $5 bill Scotch-taped to a $50 bill does not derive legal tender status from the Scotch tape or from being in multiples of $55, it derives its legal tender from its constituent components. In fact, Scotch tape is entirely non-legal tender. As are paper coin rolls.

[BeFranklin]

Jordan, our movement doesn't take away your communities laws and your being required to live by them. It's meant to put reigns on the Federal government.

Repost since you ignored it the first time:

Since the governmnet is suppose to be the servant, I think asking yourself first is this how my servant is suppose to be acting is more relevant here.

You are personally responsible for how your servant acts.

[Sandra]

Repost since you ignored it the first time:

Since the governmnet is suppose to be the servant, I think asking yourself first is this how my servant is suppose to be acting is more relevant here.

You are personally responsible for how your servant acts.

Jordan says this is really because he shouldn't have to pay the traffic fine. He's going to make the workers at the Municipal office PAY for HIS traffic fine. He's coming off as an elitist. Others should pay, but he should not. Go Ron Paul!

[Scott38]

If you go to court before the case starts walk over to the county attorney and ask them for a power of attorney from the county he represents. If he can't (and he won't be able) produce it immediately ask the judge to dismiss the case in your favor as there is no one present who can legally represent the county.

Think about it? How can a corporation (county) sign a power of attorney?

You should save yourself some money and a mark on your record.

[Razmear]

Usually if you forget your licence at home and get a ticket if you go to court and show that you had a valid license they drop the charge and your done. Ya it will cost you a few hours but it will save you the $115.

Paying with change or otherwise being a prick about it might sound like a good idea until the next time you get pulled over, which will probably be very soon, cuz they will be looking to pay you back for giving them a hassle.

Just go to court, bring your license, and get the case dismissed.
Save the pennies and the games for the tax folks cuz they don't carry guns and patrol your neighborhood.

eb

[Knightskye]

Then run for council or Mayor and change the rules, man.

[puppetmaster]

Usually if you forget your licence at home and get a ticket if you go to court and show that you had a valid license they drop the charge and your done. Ya it will cost you a few hours but it will save you the $115.

Paying with change or otherwise being a prick about it might sound like a good idea until the next time you get pulled over, which will probably be very soon, cuz they will be looking to pay you back for giving them a hassle.

Just go to court, bring your license, and get the case dismissed.
Save the pennies and the games for the tax folks cuz they don't carry guns and patrol your neighborhood.

eb

there ya go!

[jt8025]

Let us know what happens

[Jordan]

I have the court date set at 4:30. Hopefully I'll just get the chance to prove I have my license and be done with it, if not I've got a shitload of change I'm ready to dump on them.

[Sean]

If it is against US code you should contact the agency incharge of enforcing the code.

[Scott38]

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/right2travel.shtml

this might be helpful

[jt8025]

So what happened?

[Aakron]

"Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

-source (http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqcur.htm)

Checkmate! Nice one. But you have to be willing to sue if they still refuse.

[Sandra]

I think it's pretty crappy to come on these forums and argue a case for 7 pages and then disappear.

[fj45lvr]

It has been an easy avenue for protest in Indiana. Check out here:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/oddities/1033920/man_pays_big_tax_bill_in_coins_1_bills/index.html

This year he paid in all coins.

But my city apparently wont take change unless its wrapped. I didn't know wrapping it was required to make it legal tender.


just wrap it up but don't bother to Count it just stuff it in tubes "willy nilly" ....the counting is their JOB (not yours).

You might be able to have a courier deliver it in a box and make them sign for it.

[mconder]

It is legal tender and good for all debts public and private. I don't think anyone can specify the increments that they receive payment in.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Jordan]

I'm back, I didn't disappear.

At any rate I went to the initial hearing and they told me that my maximum penalty for my ticket is $500. At that point I'm unwilling to play the odds, my ticket as of now is just $115.50. Had the maximum been the same I would have requested a trial of my peers which would unlikely never happen.

Now I've got time to do some planning. I have until April 22 and have plenty to time to plan this out.

[rpfan2008]

I got a traffic ticket, stupid ridiculous ticket I should have never gotten.

Anyway, I went in to pay it with $115.50 in all change, every last cent of it. And guess what?

They wouldn't take it.

The lady said it had to be rolled. I asked for paperwork or some statute that makes coinage that is not rolled nontender. No dice.

They must know how worthless the dollar is know. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm going back on Monday but I'm going to be armed and ready. I need sources, citations, something to tell them that "you're going to take my money and I'm not rolling it for you."

Any help, I live in Indiana BTW.


LOL man :D that's hilarious XD

I remember a news piece where a man was jailed for a day or something for doing the same !! but nonetheless he was a news XD

[Jordan]

You people throw around the word sue like its some simple procedure to get the government to constrain itself to the law.

In reality you would likely have to file a writ of certiorari.

But you don't need to file. They already refused to accept your payment. Did you document the evidence? That is all you need to do so when they come after you again for failure to pay you already have your defense and you win.

Thanks for the response. The problem is when defending myself I'm going to be paying a hell of a lot of money to get out of a ticket worth a fraction of the cost.

[Scott38]

When you show up to defend yourself, ask the county attorney to show a Power of Attorney giving them legal right to act for your county (assuming your county is incorporated, most have been). When he/she can't produce it and THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO, ask the judge immediately to dismiss the case, because there is no one present who has power of attorney to represent said county on your case document.

They are snakes, so be careful. Hold your ground. The case can not move forward unless you allow it to and accept the attorney as having the right to represent the county. You have the power, use it!!!

Good luck

[Malakai]

In this case I think you are being silly. Take the change to a bank where a machine will count it lol. Or an onstar machine.

I would turn down people wanting to pay for big purchases in all change, sorry but I don't always have time to sit and count out 20 bucks in small change.

You want to stick it to the man, I feel ya. But trying to force some couple-dollar-an-hour city employee to count out 120 bucks in change is not doing that at all. Like the peter schiff for senate people, go do something that will actually yield some kind of return. Pass out pamphlets at a mall or something!

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt