Jesse Benton to be on Wake Up America to discuss C4L in Florida tomorrow

[Bryan]

Just found out from Kurt.

9:30AM Eastern.

http://wakeupamericashow.blogspot.com/2009/01/jesse-benton-of-ron-paul-campaign.html

[ronpaulhawaii]

:cool: - Break a leg :)

[heath.whiteaker]

:yawn: wonder if he will have a scheduling conflict like he did for the entire primary.

[Matt Collins]

Can't wait to hear the interview.

Will it be recorded somewhere I can download it?

[newbitech]

Can't wait to hear the interview.

Will it be recorded somewhere I can download it?

archives can be found here, so it appears.

http://aubroadcasting.com/

I am wondering if we will also hear from Mark Cross.

There is definitely a crisis here in FL re C4L and if what Eric says is true, the problems are systemic.

I would like to know why Debbie Hopper and Jessie Benton won't allow elections of a State Coordinator. What is the magic number of C4L sign ups needed to elect a coordinator?

According to Eric, its not that national disagrees that Mark Cross was doing a bad job. It's the problem of not having a quorum to make a vote. So if thats the case, there ought to be at least some rules or bylaws that we can all examine.

I would also have to serious question Benton on the status of Mark Cross. We can't be making last minute decisions to toss support behind a rival who worked against the C4L and Ron Paul supporters when it mattered the most.

I hope they ask the tough questions. This is a great early test for how we will handle 2010. I agreed with the interviewer in Eric's interview that FL is a tough state and not surprised there are serious political problems down here.

FL is also a very trendy state. Can we turn a weakness into a strength?

[Matt Collins]

I would like to know why Debbie Hopper and Jessie Benton won't allow elections of a State Coordinator. What is the magic number of C4L sign ups needed to elect a coordinator?...there ought to be at least some rules or bylaws that we can all examine.What I want to know is under what by-law was Nick and the other gentlemen "banned" from the CFL?

And what rule did they break?

And how can they be booted from an organization that hasn't even formed yet? :confused:

[Imperial]

If a compromise is reached, I can see good things for Florida...

[Matt Collins]

If a compromise is reached, I can see good things for Florida...

I have asked all sides to compromise in these two open letters:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176138
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176139

[Sandra]

After the interview Nick gave, it's understandable why he was booted. I mean his asking everyone to quit CFL makes his regaining membership counterproductive. Many ex CFL members are now starting grassroots efforts that are custom made to thier demographic, why doesn't Nick do the same? CFL isn't everything to everybody so step outside the box but don't drag down an org that works for the same goal.

[Sandra]

It's on now.

http://www.breakthematrix.com/channels/1

[DirtMcGirt]

Recap???

[Matt Collins]

Is there a recording of this somewhere?

[Imperial]

Yeah, that disturbed me when I saw Nick suggested all members to quit. Not a good way to mend broken fences.

[LibertyEagle]

Is there a recording of this somewhere?

http://aubroadcasting.com/

[newbitech]

just listened to the interview. Here are my notes and first impressions in free thought form...


Benton Interview...

Free flow of thoughts...

nationally things are going great... like what? pass legistlation... how is C4L doing that?

lots of calls...to HQ about this...

12 or so calls is inudated? JB
passionate...JB
most people are satisfied.

mark cross.. people know... long time activist in FL...
long standing ties with GOP...
work on the inside...
put HIS credibility on the line, Dr. Paul Pact??
Cross sent a book at his own expense.
counted his votes not enough votes.. second candidate is not with us...but greer is...
mark talked to greer give a public promise... where is promise publically...
when did greer make a public acknowledgement....??
JB not sure if it was right move???
gain by losing???
trust mark...
thought hard and anylised.
people have right to raise eyebrows and question...
if greer continues to ignore and pay lip service...BUT...
thats how it is....

About nick... active supporter early on, energetic..
negative energy...
mutual respect and considered a friend..
nick do what hes doing.
nick wanted to be hired as coordinator
mark hired because of exp..
nick sent nasty emails..

nick wanted to be appointed interim state coordinator..
mark made contraversy, and nick wanted to make power grab.
nasty emails and messages all over the country.
critisizing, and half truths...

like what? evidence of this half truths?

tried to ask him to back off...

accusing nick of editing emails and sending out selective remarks. accussing nick of lying..
tried to cut a deal...
said, i'll back off if you make me assistant...

wanted to be elavated.

not gonna give in to bullying....

exp people with integrity and seriousness.

them them them who are these people JB talks about sticking there necks out? who are these people who C4L are going to defend.

Not telling states how they are going to organize. States are going to be turned loose by who? WE ARE GOING TO LET PEOPLE DO. Until FL is ready, mark cross is going to lead.

Personal issues, JB has greatest job in the world. Personal relationships.. nick is two faced. twisting and distorting and making stuff up and lying. Like what? evidence?

what does C4L offering?
building a unique movement with uniq cause and uniq structure. talking about bottom up management. going to be a national structure that helps organize and funnel energy for fed, legistlations and disseminate info from WA. repeats himself. working with COordinators to organize as they see fit, and they will provide advice.. about by-laws and good ways to fight battles in own states... provide IT???? for states. likely be ways to coordinate money in future

I guess what we are trying to do is provide tools, guidance and info.. main ways to comminicate is through blog. working out tech bugs, daily updates for precint leaders. ramping up to get newsleters going.

Sounds a little confused. Named off some people.. putting together a lobby.. pushing for block on congress pay raise. build credibility, work with people for partners to make sure it works. Pushing for full audit of fed reserve. coolition building.

working with dems... to audit fed.. transcends dem and republican..

obama talks, abolish central bank..

sounds like the issue of florida is done..

I want to hear from mark cross... sounds like JB and C4L are happy with Mark Cross until FL decides to kick him out. C4L with also vote for any party...

show obama we can muster support??

thing down in FL is going to be ongoing..

question about a qurom being reached, how many people needed? don't have a mechanism like that. 2000 people in FL.. be patient. Hmmmm nice that was my question.... not there yet, when will we be there? put aside personal ambition and petty squables..

reconcilitiation. with nick? Not with Nick................. wow.. proof? am i just supposed to trust this guy? What was the lie JB? talked with RP, DH, Tate, trust is broken....

[DirtMcGirt]

newbitech, thanks for the recap... I will now stare at the back of my eyelids. later

[BlueCalico]

:yawn: wonder if he will have a scheduling conflict like he did for the entire primary.

Negative attitude much? Sheesh.

[angelatc]

I would also have to serious question Benton on the status of Mark Cross. We can't be making last minute decisions to toss support behind a rival who worked against the C4L and Ron Paul supporters when it mattered the most.

No, but when you are an upper level manager, you are expected to install good front line managers and back their decisions. If you don't, your managers will never last long.

Not having elections seems to indicate that this is a top-down organization.

[LibertyEagle]

It looks like elections will in fact happen. But, not until there are enough precinct leaders in place.
---------------

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/kb.php

The Role of the Interim State Coordinator

Interim State Coordinators for the Campaign for Liberty are appointed by the Campaign for Liberty. The Interim State Coordinator has the authority to name Interim District and County Coordinators. The focus of the interim coordinators will be to recruit and train Precinct Leaders. Interim Coordinators are chosen based upon previous leadership experience and the ability to encourage and train others, while being good stewards of the liberty movement, being respectful of others and acting in a professional manner.

Once a sufficient number of Precinct Leaders are in place to constitute a statewide organization, a Campaign for Liberty partnership may be formed and leadership will be elected by partner members.

[Matt Collins]

Not having elections seems to indicate that this is a top-down organization.




It looks like elections will in fact happen. But, not until there are enough precinct leaders in place.

Both are correct.

I detect several issues.

1- HQ has set the numbers too high. I think they are waiting on a specific number of PLs before they allow any State to "formalize". Unfortunately the rate of PL's in even the most active states is barely what was expected. Ive heard through the grapevine that HQ is lowering or starting to lower their threshold.

2- Some states are ready to organize and formalize their organization even though they don't meet the standards set by HQ regarding the number of PLs. This of course means HQ is holding back the States from proceeding forward.

3- The further we move away from the RP '08 campaign the harder it is going to fill these offices with like minded people. We are losing momentum with each passing week and people are losing interest, giving up, and going home. Why? Because things are not moving quick enough. I have seen this several places firsthand.

[pennycat]

It's just amazing to me that as soon as I start questioning the authority and performance of Campaign For Liberty, I get branded as 'untrustworthy,' 'disloyal,' and 'power-grabbing.' The facts say otherwise.

I have long supported CFL and urged many to join it. My questions arose after seeing months of inaction from the leadership. The final straw was having our APPOINTED CFL State Coordinator withdraw his candidacy and endorse the anti-Ron Paul chairman of the Republican Party of Florida.

There's a lot of details that are only understood by us folks in Florida. My take on this is at http://nickegorofforlandopoliticalactivist.blogspot.com/

The National Staff at CFL has taken the position that I'm no longer welcome to participate in CFL because I was publicly disagreeing with the State CFL Coordinator. This despite nearly two years of nonstop support for the cause of liberty.

Have I said some things in anger which I shouldn't have? Yes. Does that mean we are now going to start terminating people that speak passionately about what they believe? I hope not.

Let's also remember that Dr. Paul himself routinely says things that some might say puts his membership in the Republican Party at risk. I'll bet CFL leadership would be the first to howl if RP was 'banned' from the Republican Party.

This is exactly what CFL has done to me. No appeal. No face to face contact or even a phone call from President John Tate of Senior V. P. Jesse Benton explaining my expulsion.

They got to send out an email to the entire membership of Florida with their side. Did I get a chance to respond? Nope. Now there's a good example of fairness.

Unfortunately, Tate and Benton are doing the same thing Washington, D.C. bureaucrats do. Micro manage from thousands of miles away.

The honest, ethical, and fair thing to do is call an election. They say there's not enough people to do that (only 6000 people have signed up in Florida). But as another Florida CFL coordinator (who was also removed for the same infraction) said, "That's like saying because we don't have enough supporters here, there's no use in getting active."

What Tate, Benton, and Hopper know is that our State Coordinator would be voted out overwhelmingly. We took a pole of most of the county coordinators and congressional district coordinators. Sixty-six percent wanted him removed. Thirty-three percent wanted him reprimanded. Not much support, and certainly enough to warrant a thorough examination of the facts.

National HQ hides behind 'the rules won't allow it.' Who's rules? Where are the rules? Were we, the members able to vote on the rules? No. Their was to be a constitution to vote on at the Rally for The Republic in Minneapolis. But alas, 'it wasn't ready.' That's the last anyone heard about it.

Am I mad? Am I hurt? Am I a bigmouth (had to throw in some humor)? YES. But darn it, it's time to start letting the grassroots do what it does best. Build our own organization and let us control it. CFL was built with mine and yours money. Let us at least vote on our state level and local level organizers.

[LibertyEagle]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1922717&postcount=108

[Matt Collins]

National HQ hides behind 'the rules won't allow it.' Who's rules? Where are the rules? I've been asking that since September.

[Sandra]

Yeah, and Nick's constant "reinstate me and I'll tell you who will get booted" attitude dooms him forever. It's said even here on the forums. Dude, go do your own thing.

[pennycat]

Why don't you take the time to respond to any of the points I made... show me where the logic is flawed... then we can have a discussion based on facts not just emotions.

[Sandra]

Why don't you take the time to respond to any of the points I made... show me where the logic is flawed... then we can have a discussion based on facts not just emotions.

Because you're basing your arguments on emotions. Why are you failing to create your own LIBERTY movement? Instead you've created an anti CFL organization. You can either work for your passion for freedom as you claim to have or you can try to bring it all dowm. That would be epic fail.

[wizardwatson]

I've been asking that since September.

Make your own rules and submit them. If they're good and CFL won't use them maybe RPF or someone else might. I was telling Nick the same thing the other day.

[pennycat]

Because you're basing your arguments on emotions. Why are you failing to create your own LIBERTY movement? Instead you've created an anti CFL organization. You can either work for your passion for freedom as you claim to have or you can try to bring it all dowm. That would be epic fail.

There may be some emotion in there, but that's to make it interesting to read.

Do you agree that they should just can me without confronting me?

Do you think that they should be able to broadcast a message to CFL members in Florida without giving me an opportunity to respond?

Do you think that Florida CFL members should be able to vote on their leadership?

How answer you??

And I'm not wanting to 'create an anti-CFL organization', I want CFL to be a better organization. Arguments like 'you're free to go create your own site,' avoid the issue of why we want a good site to begin with. Debate the issues not endlessly argue about theoretical possibilities.

[pennycat]

Make your own rules and submit them. If they're good and CFL won't use them maybe RPF or someone else might. I was telling Nick the same thing the other day.

Do you think that it's right for CFL to just make up the rules as they go along?

Do I now have to create rules for them, email them, then wait to see if they are acceptable before I can criticize them?

[0zzy]

Never was a fan of Jesse Benton.

[Sandra]

There may be some emotion in there, but that's to make it interesting to read.

Do you agree that they should just can me without confronting me?

Do you think that they should be able to broadcast a message to CFL members in Florida without giving me an opportunity to respond?

Do you think that Florida CFL members should be able to vote on their leadership?

How answer you??

And I'm not wanting to 'create an anti-CFL organization', I want CFL to be a better organization. Arguments like 'you're free to go create your own site,' avoid the issue of why we want a good site to begin with. Debate the issues not endlessly argue about theoretical possibilities.

Nick, according to a Google search, this has been going on since last spring. There was a confrontation and an email; battle for almost a year. Time to hang it up. Just cut your losses and start up something pro active for those the CFL can't accomodate.

[angelatc]

National HQ hides behind 'the rules won't allow it.' Who's rules? Where are the rules? Were we, the members able to vote on the rules?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Booting out dissenters is just the way things are done in politics these days.

[Matt Collins]

Because you're basing your arguments on emotions. I disagree. He is making an argument of fact with emotions. But the argument itself isn't based upon emotions.


or you can try to bring it all dowm. That would be epic fail.I think the CFL-HQ has done that by ignoring the realities on the ground and failing to handle them in an appropriate and resolute manner.

[Matt Collins]

Make your own rules and submit them.HA! Yeah right. I can't get anyone at CFL-HQ to return and e-mail about this subject.

[LibertyEagle]

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=9025

[Matt Collins]

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=9025Thanks for pointing this out. It's interesting. I commented on it.


But they still should not have canned Nick and the other guy without having any rules in place to do so.

[LibertyEagle]

HA! Yeah right. I can't get anyone at CFL-HQ to return and e-mail about this subject.

Geez, I wonder why. :rolleyes:

[Matt Collins]

Geez, I wonder why. Simple... because they are either incompetent or willfully ignoring me or even possibly an eclectic mix of both.

[Debbie Hopper]

Not true, Matt. I sent you an email on the 21st. Since you are not a Florida member and would not have been on the leadership list that received John Tate's statement, I wanted to make sure that you received a copy of it. Since it didn't bounce back, I assume you received my email.

[Matt Collins]

Not true, Matt. I sent you an email on the 21st. Since you are not a Florida member and would not have been on the leadership list that received John Tate's statement, I wanted to make sure that you received a copy of it. Since it didn't bounce back, I assume you received my email.Hmmm... I don't recall. Let me check my e-mail (I've had a great deal more than normal lately) and get back. It's possible it slipped through and I'll take a look to be sure either way.

[Debbie Hopper]

Matt, I checked to make sure it was in my sent folder before posting. As a general rule, I find it best to verify the facts before speaking rather than after.

From: Debbie Hopper [mailto:dhopper@campaignforliberty.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:21 PM
To: 'Matt Collins'
Subject: RE: An open letter to CFL-HQ re: FL-CFL

It was sent to your ultasonicdesigns email.

[Sandra]

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=9025

So many in our meetup has a conquer and take over attitude. There were some in the LAGOP that were willing to listen to us because our views and theirs were the same. Instead I think the confrontational stance of some RP'ers may have turned them off and they thought us to be less like Ron Paul and more like Mussolini.

Instead we should merge then divert and detour since that's what a majority want to do now anyway.

[LibertyEagle]

So many in our meetup has a conquer and take over attitude. There were some in the LAGOP that were willing to listen to us because our views and theirs were the same. Instead I think the confrontational stance of some RP'ers may have turned them off and they thought us to be less like Ron Paul and more like Mussolini.

Instead we should merge then divert and detour since that's what a majority want to do now anyway.

Yeah, it's not going to work too well for us to show our battle plans as we walk in the building and simply expect them to go along with us. I know it sounds sexy to a lot of people who want revolution, but it's not a winning strategy. I like the merge, divert and detour plan. :) That is, after all, how the Neoconservatives took over the conservative movement.

[pennycat]

Yeah, it's not going to work too well for us to show our battle plans as we walk in the building and simply expect them to go along with us. I know it sounds sexy to a lot of people who want revolution, but it's not a winning strategy. I like the merge, divert and detour plan. :) That is, after all, how the Neoconservatives took over the conservative movement.

Not a winning strategy? I tried the hush-hush approach when we were gathering people to run for precinct positions in our Orange County, Fl. takeover of the local Republican Party. We weren't getting the message out nor rallying the people to the cause. I switched tactics to blasting it out to the whole meetup group repeatedly. I was castigated by some as 'giving away our strategy.' Result? Our sign-ups soared (over 120 people signed up).

Two months later we had our primary elections where we had to run in individual precinct races. Most won (lots unopposed), and some (but not all) lost in opposed races).

Three months AFTER THAT, we had our election for a new board of directors of the county Republican Party. We came within one vote of unseating the multi-year incumbent chairman (122-121). We would have won if the chairman (in collusion with the State Chairman Jim Greer) hadn't disqualified 18 duly elected precinct winners on our side. We're fighting that one in court. Thanks CFL for not one dime of support.

Try doing that with a 'whisper to your buddy style campaign.' It won't work. You know why I can say this so confidently? Because NO ONE IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA CAME EVEN CLOSE TO SIGNING UP THE NUMBER OF RP PEOPLE WE DID!! Not one. Closest were groups in Jacksonville and St. Petersburg. And their county's dwarfed our county's population (from which you'd imagine that they'd have a bigger pool of RP supporters to draw from). Those two counties ended up only getting 30 to 40 people to sign up. I commend their efforts and the organizers are close personal friends of mine.

Note to Ms. Hopper: Please put this in my file along with your 'check the facts first' notes on why you banned the most successful organizer (me) in Florida from CFL.

Second note to Ms. Hopper: Please inform the CFL State Coordinators you hand pick, not to end up supporting incumbent Chairman that seek to destroy the RP movement (like the case of Mark Cross throwing his support to Republican Party Chair Jim Greer). It only annoys those of us that are really working hard for change.

[angelatc]

Simple... because they are either incompetent or willfully ignoring me or even possibly an eclectic mix of both.

It is the same amateur operation that ran the 2008 campaign. (What's that definition of insanity again? )

[LibertyEagle]

To be fair Nick, shouldn't you have included the term, INTERIM, when speaking of the state coordinators?

----------------------

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/kb.php

The Role of the Interim State Coordinator

Interim State Coordinators for the Campaign for Liberty are appointed by the Campaign for Liberty. The Interim State Coordinator has the authority to name Interim District and County Coordinators. The focus of the interim coordinators will be to recruit and train Precinct Leaders. Interim Coordinators are chosen based upon previous leadership experience and the ability to encourage and train others, while being good stewards of the liberty movement, being respectful of others and acting in a professional manner.

Once a sufficient number of Precinct Leaders are in place to constitute a statewide organization, a Campaign for Liberty partnership may be formed and leadership will be elected by partner members.

[angelatc]

Not a winning strategy? I tried the hush-hush approach when we were gathering people to run for precinct positions in our Orange County, Fl. takeover of the local Republican Party. We weren't getting the message out nor rallying the people to the cause. I switched tactics to blasting it out to the whole meetup group repeatedly. I was castigated by some as 'giving away our strategy.' Result? Our sign-ups soared (over 120 people signed up).

Congratulations! But there's a difference between blaring a message to your meetup, and blaring that same message to the entire GOP. I think you're both right in this instance.

[angelatc]

To be fair Nick, shouldn't you have included the term, INTERIM, when speaking of the state coordinators?

.

Not "mean moderator," minutiae moderator!

[LibertyEagle]

Not "mean moderator," minutiae moderator!

Maybe, but the point is that there is a difference between the two. From what I'm seeing on C4L's website, the intent is for the State Coordinators to be elected as soon as there are sufficient precinct leaders. So, the implication that State Coordinators are just appointed is, well, not really true.

[pennycat]

Maybe, but the point is that there is a difference between the two. From what I'm seeing on C4L's website, the intent is for the State Coordinators to be elected as soon as there are sufficient precinct leaders. So, the implication that State Coordinators are just appointed is, well, not really true.

Then explain why in the midst of this crisis (and the word is appropriate since the vast majority of RP supporters that are aware of Cross's actions oppose him) we can't have an election. Many people have urged CFL management to allow one but they won't.

[Debbie Hopper]

Nick, your questions have been answered several times by us and by other members on this forum...including libertyeagle above.

"Interim Coordinators are chosen based upon previous leadership experience and the ability to encourage and train others, while being good stewards of the liberty movement, being respectful of others and acting in a professional manner.

Once a sufficient number of Precinct Leaders are in place to constitute a statewide organization, a Campaign for Liberty partnership may be formed and leadership will be elected by partner members."

In all of Florida, there are 83 Precinct Leaders. In the County where you were the Interim Coordinator, there are 6 - 4 that joined before you did and 2 after. Hardly enough to constitute a real statewide organization.

You were removed, not because you questioned anybody's authority but because you showed a decided lack of judgment in how you handled your disagreement with Mark, failing to show"respect of others" or "acting in a professional manner."

On top of that, you twisted the truth to suit your own purposes.

It's time to move on.

[thomj76]

I have been watching this develop, and it is time for me to chime in. Each of us have gifts in different areas. Nick, your enthusiasm and ability to get people excited for sign waving, getting groups out into areas to show support is fantastic. From what I have gathered, Mark, was able to use the pulpit to speak about Constitutional Republicanism, the message of Dr. Ron Paul, the ways in which presently leadership in the GOP have gone astray of the Constitutional message, and then knowing that in this election, there was no way in reality the present leadership was going to be replaced. More people listened to that message than had before Mark's speech.

We donated to his campaign, and if more minds were changed for the better of our country and its principles, then it was worth it. I'm sure there were worse ways to spend those notes.

I understand being frustrated by this, but quite frankly, there were actions taken here that were caustic for fellow Ron Paul supporters. Memos were sent out from the state party in regard to being on the look out for takeovers of county party mechanisms. I had the wonderful experience of being in a meeting that devolved into an anti Ron Paul supporter rant that was fueled by memo's sent out in regard to "hostile" takeovers. It was, without a doubt, one of the worst experiences in regard to my experiences involving this campaign.

I think a lot of us have had to decompress over the last few weeks, and hopefully, we can all move in our ways forward. Where we we meet mutually, awesome. Where we do not, let us have the balance, understanding, and respect to get over the obstacle.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Here is what I think. Ron Paul's campaign was always a bottom up grass roots effort..or at least it appeared to be. Now, we have C4L which is a top down national effort. Perhaps some people like that and will go along with it...and those who wish to remain individualistic, can form their own liberty groups. I prefer the bottom UP approach without a heirarchy from National...that's just me though. Ron Paulers are creative, motivated and energetic..and I think because of the bit of anarchist in all of us...most will reject top down authority lolol. Nick...start your own group and let me know ok? you have my email. I also wish the best for C4L and their efforts. There can't be too much Liberty spread around...no matter how it happens. Tones

[Matt Collins]

"Interim Coordinators are chosen based upon previous leadership experience and the ability to encourage and train others, while being good stewards of the liberty movement, being respectful of others and acting in a professional manner.


[Nick], you were removed, not because you questioned anybody's authority but because you showed a decided lack of judgment in how you handled your disagreement with Mark, failing to show"respect of others" or "acting in a professional manner."

Debbie,

I would argue that Mr. Cross also showed a lack of judgment and did not act in a professional manner by supporting Mr. Greer. And apparently the majority of FL-CFL members agree with me. Why? Because I have never once seen Ron support or make a deal with anyone who was acting contrary to the interests in liberty or the Constitution as Mr. Cross did. Mr. Cross threw his support behind someone who was absolutely against everything the liberty movement stands for. Ron never put his support behind McCain. Given these facts it has become quite evident that Mr. Cross also acted in an unprofessional manner showing a lack of judgment. By the standards you have just set, Mr. Cross should also be removed from the CFL. After all if we are to uphold these standards for one leader in the CFL, we should uphold them for ALL leaders in the CFL.

Now that I have made my point in a somewhat facetious manner I must say that neither Mr. Cross, nor Nick, nor the other gentlemen in Florida should be removed from the CFL. I do think a reorganization of the FL-CFL is probably needed, but exiling members is a bit absurd and detrimental to the movement as a whole because it lowers morale and has a chilling effect on the speech and actions of those within the organization.

Also a few questions for you... It says on this page: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/kb.php


The Interim State Coordinator has the authority to name Interim District and County Coordinators. So according to that the ISC (Mark Cross) has the ability to name county coordinators. I do not see anything in that statement about the ISC having the ability to remove county coordinators. Perhaps it is implied that if the ISC can install sub-coordinators then they can also remove sub-coordinators? It is interesting because as far as I can tell Mr. Cross never removed Nick and the other gentlemen, or did he? I would appreciate your clarification on this.

Or are these even the rules that we are operating under? Does CFL-HQ have the ability to install or remove county and district coordinators? And if so, what rule or by-law grants that power to override the FL-CFL? Because according to what it says on the page just referenced the CFL-HQ has nothing to do with it, only the ISC.

And who decides what is "unprofessional" and what actions constitute a "lack of judgment"? Is there a vote taken? And if so is this vote public, and who gets to vote? Or is it decided by a single person? Also, where is the "lack of judgement" standard listed because I did not see it on that page.

And I give you my word I am not avoiding looking for that e-mail mentioned in a previous post. I have just not been at my desk in the last 30+ hours which is where all of my e-mail is archived (I'm on my laptop currently). I promise I will search for it and get back to you so that can be cleared up.

Thanks for your time...

[Sandra]

Mark, it's done, move on.

[angelatc]

Maybe, but the point is that there is a difference between the two. From what I'm seeing on C4L's website, the intent is for the State Coordinators to be elected as soon as there are sufficient precinct leaders. So, the implication that State Coordinators are just appointed is, well, not really true.

If anything it makes the situation even worse. One of the campaign's biggest producers was tossed to placate a temp?

[angelatc]

being respectful of others and acting in a professional manner.

ROTFL!

Because that letter and all these posts are totally unprofessional. I am sooo glad I kept my $35.00.

Can't somebody please hire Howard Dean?

[wizardwatson]

If there are no by-laws there is no organization. If there is no organization, then CFL is just a website owned by a non-profit corporation and nobody can do shit as far as going against them as CFL is a PRIVATE COMPANY.

Ask for the by-laws. If you don't get any, draw up your own, circulate them around the internets and see if you can get some popular support for the idea.

[newbitech]

Nick, your questions have been answered several times by us and by other members on this forum...including libertyeagle above.

"Interim Coordinators are chosen based upon previous leadership experience and the ability to encourage and train others, while being good stewards of the liberty movement, being respectful of others and acting in a professional manner.

Once a sufficient number of Precinct Leaders are in place to constitute a statewide organization, a Campaign for Liberty partnership may be formed and leadership will be elected by partner members."

In all of Florida, there are 83 Precinct Leaders. In the County where you were the Interim Coordinator, there are 6 - 4 that joined before you did and 2 after. Hardly enough to constitute a real statewide organization.

You were removed, not because you questioned anybody's authority but because you showed a decided lack of judgment in how you handled your disagreement with Mark, failing to show"respect of others" or "acting in a professional manner."

On top of that, you twisted the truth to suit your own purposes.

It's time to move on.


This message confirms what I have been thinking since the primaries. There is no organization in FL for this movement AT ALL!

I am curious, why does the C4L/Ron Paul presidential campaign have a paltry 1.3% conversion rate of sign ups to Precinct Leaders? What the campaign has done is leave FL supporters out in the lurch.

FL was ignored in the Presidential Campaign because it was a lost state. It looks like that sentiment has carried forward in the post election C4L. Not only do the numbers show this...


General Election
17,218 Barr
7,915 Baldwin
28,124 Nader

can't count FL votes for RP cause he wasn't even on the BALLOT!!!

53,257 Total 3rd party votes

Primaries
John McCain 693,508 36%
Mitt Romney 598,188 31%
Rudy Giuliani 281,781 15%
Mike Huckabee 259,735 13%
Ron Paul 62,063 3%
Fred Thompson 22,288 1%
Alan Keyes 4,005 0%
Duncan Hunter 2,787 0%
Tom Tancredo 1,556 0%

Difference from Primaries to election - 62,063/53,257 = 8,806
C4L web page sign ups - There are 6137 members with 1265 user accounts including 83 Precinct Leaders in Florida.



But the decision by the C4L and the FL leader Mark Cross of acquiescent capitulation in the GOP leadership election displays a clear strategy of abandoning FL support in favor of political gain.

I understand sacrifice for the greater good. I understand the top down decision making. I understand that we need to keep our eyes on the bigger prize.

What I will never understand is cutting off the nose to spite the face. The decision to axe Nick is precisely that. The C4L is content to drive a spike in to the heart of FL support because quite frankly the C4L and presidential campaign never counted on having FL being a big player anyways. After all, FL is THE premier GOP playground state and why would a fledgling freedom campaign want to take the risk of challenging the big boys in their own backyard? remember, the GOP got destroyed by the Dems in FL, and the DEMS gave up in FL!!! No one was fighting for FL!!! Huge mistake! The Dems gave up FL early on by choosing to disenfranchise their voter base because FL decided to hold elections early. The FL Ron Paul campaign ignored this rather than taking advantage of the opportunity to pick up those disenfranchised votes! The GOP did the same thing, except only decided to disenfranchise HALF the primary voters. The GOP still LOST THE STATE, yet the C4L leadership is STILL WILLING TO PLAY BALL with the GOP down here! This is a disgrace!

For comparison,
Texas support (Ron Paul's home state) republican primary numbers.


John McCain
707,622 51.2% 0
Mike Huckabee 521,951 37.8% 0
Ron Paul 69,824 5.1% 0
Mitt Romney 27,579 2% 0
Uncommitted 17,611 1.3% 0
Fred Thompson 11,786 .9% 0
Duncan Hunter 8,254 .6% 0
Rudy Giuliani 6,169 .4% 0
Others 10,112 .7% 0

Ron Paul in Texas 69,824
Ron Paul in FL 62,063

Difference? 7,761 for the Political Home State Texas.

Here are the top 4 vote getting states for RP at the height of the campaign.
PA <- Rons Home State 128,188
CA <- biggest state in country 99,591
TX <- Rons political home state 69,824
FL <- the state ignored by the campaign 62,063

I put these numbers here for comparison.

Debbie and the C4L makes it seem as if there is hardly any interest coming from FL. Well, I beg to differ with that. We have no support from national down here, and in fact it looks like national is working against us. The logic/reason/excuse I am hearing for this? It sounds like we don't want to piss off the establishment!

That's not going to work in FL!!! Why is FL losing supporters so rapidly? This DEMANDS a reevaluation of the C4L strategies in FL. We should have at the very least a discussion of how the national strategy has HURT FL! If not then we need elections pronto before we lose any more support!

GOP primary Voter numbers source (you can see all the states there.)
http://gopconvention.thehill.com/content/blogcategory/20/78/

[Bryan]

newbitech- thanks for the message, I've listed some questions below so I can try to understand better.


This message confirms what I have been thinking since the primaries. There is no organization in FL for this movement AT ALL!

I am curious, why does the C4L/Ron Paul presidential campaign have a paltry 1.3% conversion rate of sign ups to Precinct Leaders?
What do you think would be a good target number? How do you deal with fake / shill / etc free sign-ups in this?



What the campaign has done is leave FL supporters out in the lurch.Could you please summarize what they have done that has let you to this conclusion?


But the decision by the C4L and the FL leader Mark Cross of acquiescent capitulation in the GOP leadership election displays a clear strategy of abandoning FL support in favor of political gain.
What is the political gain that is to be had? Are you saying that you know the motives for the C4L's actions?


What I will never understand is cutting off the nose to spite the face. The decision to axe Nick is precisely that.
Could you please explain to me how this is so? (Just trying to understand here).


The C4L is content to drive a spike in to the heart of FL support because quite frankly the C4L and presidential campaign never counted on having FL being a big player anyways.
I understand in a presidential campaign you have to choose your battles but are you saying that the C4L is applying these same battle lines to their growth strategy as in they are focusing on states that can be "won"? Are there any other states that anyone would consider being cut off?


The GOP still LOST THE STATE, yet the C4L leadership is STILL WILLING TO PLAY BALL with the GOP down here!
Can you explain this? How are they doing this?


Debbie and the C4L makes it seem as if there is hardly any interest coming from FL.
How so?


We have no support from national down here,
I haven't seen any direct support here in Texas either. Texas has been holding district meetings around the state and will have a state convention coming up - the C4L isn't helping with this that I understand. What states are getting support?


and in fact it looks like national is working against us.
How so?


The logic/reason/excuse I am hearing for this? It sounds like we don't want to piss off the establishment!
What has been said that has lead you to this conclusion?


That's not going to work in FL!!! Why is FL losing supporters so rapidly? This DEMANDS a reevaluation of the C4L strategies in FL. We should have at the very least a discussion of how the national strategy has HURT FL!
I will be interested to hear this with as many specifics facts as appropriate.

[Sandra]

We want support from the CFL in Louisiana, just not obvious support. It's best to let them run in the background without any direct presence in the LAGOP. It's probably best that CFL not even be mentioned while in state GOP meetings.

[Bryan]

Questions for Sandra and others. Exactly what type of support from the CFL is desired? Also, what criteria should the CFL have to prevent supporting some group that has ulterior motives or is grossly ineffective?

Thanks.

[angelatc]

Questions for Sandra and others. Exactly what type of support from the CFL is desired? Also, what criteria should the CFL have to prevent supporting some group that has ulterior motives or is grossly ineffective?

Thanks.

I like a top down structure. I like what Howard Dean did for the Democrats.

[Matt Collins]

If there are no by-laws there is no organization. If there is no organization, then CFL is just a websiteHas anyone seen any by-laws :confused:


Ask for the by-laws. If you don't get any, draw up your own, circulate them around the internets and see if you can get some popular support for the idea.Somehow I don't think popular support means much. At least that's the impression that I get. :rolleyes:

[Matt Collins]

I am curious, why does the C4L/Ron Paul presidential campaign have a paltry 1.3% conversion rate of sign ups to Precinct Leaders? What the campaign has done is leave FL supporters out in the lurch.TN had 32k people vote for Ron. Now the TN-CFL has 39 PL. That's several orders of magnitude.

My guess? They didn't strike while the iron was hot and people lost interest. The further away we move from the primary the harder it will to keep people active.




FL was ignored in the Presidential Campaign because it was a lost state. It looks like that sentiment has carried forward in the post election C4L. Not only do the numbers show this...

The FL Ron Paul campaign ignored this rather than taking advantage of the opportunity to pick up those disenfranchised votes!

Well from a campaign strategic point of view, Florida was not worth putting resources into. Why? Because it was a winner-take-all and Ron didn't have a chance of winning the state during the primary.

But I don't think the CFL-HQ is giving much support to any State right now (and that isn't necessarily a bad thing). So don't feel left out.


What I would like in terms of "support" is simply a framework for the state organization, and then just let us run with it. In other words, whatever founding documents are needed, and then let each State fill in the blanks and do it's own thing. That's how the country is set up, and it is how the CFL should be set up because it allows for local decision making and innovation instead of a one-size fits all scenario. Hopefully this is what will happen, but if it doesn't happen soon I fear momentum will be lost and the liberty movement will become factional and splintered again. In fact I'm already starting to see this in both Florida and TN.

[Matt Collins]

Matt, I checked to make sure it was in my sent folder before posting. As a general rule, I find it best to verify the facts before speaking rather than after.

From: Debbie Hopper [mailto:dhopper@campaignforliberty.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:21 PM
To: 'Matt Collins'
Subject: RE: An open letter to CFL-HQ re: FL-CFL

It was sent to your ultasonicdesigns email.

After searching through my mail client I must say that no I did not receive that e-mail :confused::(

Can you resend it?

[pennycat]

Questions for Sandra and others. Exactly what type of support from the CFL is desired? Also, what criteria should the CFL have to prevent supporting some group that has ulterior motives or is grossly ineffective?

Thanks.

CFL national should allow individual states to handle their on CFL matters. Or at least vote on them.

The reason for this isn't just 'opinion' it is because only people close to the situation know what is going on. This is precisely why National CFL has made such a mess of this situation. The people in Florida know much more about the nuances of the situation than National could ever know.

Seems to me that is what the Founders of the Constitution realized. Maybe CFL should take a look at that document occasionally. It might solve a lot of problems like these.

[Sandra]

Questions for Sandra and others. Exactly what type of support from the CFL is desired? Also, what criteria should the CFL have to prevent supporting some group that has ulterior motives or is grossly ineffective?

Thanks.


The problem in Louisiana is there needs to be a much stealthier approach to diverting the GOP. All the sign waving at the convention only ostracized us more as if we were there to take over against the will of the majority. There were people there that would have been more receptive if we acted less aggressive (yet work aggressively). I think if the CFL worked with GOP members as an underground org and incorporate think tank capabilities to teach us how to achieve an end through gentle means. The neocons did it, we can too.

[newbitech]

newbitech- thanks for the message, I've listed some questions below so I can try to understand better.
No problem sir. I have been recognized in my career as an enterprise information system analyst for being a very astute observer of how policies and practice tend to diverge from the system used to incorporate them. I will try to use those skills to clarify my observation regarding the C4L in FL by answering your questions. Let's begin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
This message confirms what I have been thinking since the primaries. There is no organization in FL for this movement AT ALL!
I am curious, why does the C4L/Ron Paul presidential campaign have a paltry 1.3% conversion rate of sign ups to Precinct Leaders?



What do you think would be a good target number? How do you deal with fake / shill / etc free sign-ups in this?

I don't think there should be a target number. However, if I had to put a number on it, there are 67 counties in FL. To have a legitimate representitive vote on a state level, at least 1 person from each county must be present to vote. This gives us our senate requirement for representation. Now for population, the smallest county in FL is Liberty County (imagine that!) That county has an estimated population of 8,158 as of April 2008. Now divide that number into the estimated population of each county and round up. There are your rep numbers needed for each county. Add the total and you get 2,305. These are the number of representitive votes. Let the counties decide how to come up with those numbers. Here is a spreadsheet that I used to do the calc. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pACwAcMj9kEyAJG1HFqebNQ&hl=en Here is the link to the stats. http://edr.state.fl.us/population.htm (If you are a pot-head please disregard the links to the government pages and do your own census!)

These numbers don't work on a precinct level for a few reasons. First off, Florida is not really organized as precincts. Its more like counties and major cities. I understand that precincts are how we vote, however this could be a reason why politics is so broken and fractured down here. I say shelve the idea of precinct leaders until the movement reaches that point of critical mass where it becomes neccessary to have that extra layer of local abstraction. At the current pace, we will have enough precinct leaders to influence elections some time in 2030. Florida sent about 62,063 people to the polls to vote for RP to be the GOP nominee. Divide that number by the number of proposed electors (2,305) and you get right at 27 people. That is a nice conversion goal for each active member of the campaign. I personally brought in 19 people to vote for RP including myself. So I did fall short of that number, but there are some people like Nick that I am sure covered that short fall more than a few times. Its a good goal number though and plays nicely with the county theme as well as giving us a good basis.

As far as the second question, I don't deal with people like that. This is what the local groups are for. I would say at the very least, activity is required to be nominated as an elector. Time will root these people out more than anything though. I think the focus should be on growing our ranks rather than worry about sabotage from within. To be honest, the fakes and shills are already in power and I would consider it a good sign for the movement if that kind of activity is occuring. Of course not all spies are bad spies. Some will go undetected. For those, we will have to have faith in each other and learn to trust each other. What happened to Nick really makes me wonder though, especially in light of the wishy washy Mark Cross decision. Sadly, we live in a society where this kind of behaviour is encouraged and rewarded, so it makes it hard to know who to trust, especially when the only read I can personally get on people is through web/message board postings. I wish I had more time to get to know some of you, but thankfully we have the internet, otherwise I wouldn't be involved at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
What the campaign has done is leave FL supporters out in the lurch.


Could you please summarize what they have done that has let you to this conclusion?
quick definition
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lurch%5B2%5D
Main Entry:
2lurch
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French lourche, adjective, defeated by a lurch, deceived
Date:
1598
: a decisive defeat in which an opponent wins a game by more than double the defeated player's score especially in cribbage
— in the lurch
: in a vulnerable and unsupported position

Top 3
1.) Supported incumbant GOP party chair after using the Ron Paul campaign fundraising machine on an admittedly predestined to fail bid to unseat Greer.
2.) Excommunicated one of the most successful grassroots organizers in FL that nearly succeeded in taking over the Orlando REC with no fundraising money from that same machine.
3.) Will not allow elections for local/statewide representation within the movement because of lack of numbers while at the same time, not offering any solutions on how to increase those numbers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
But the decision by the C4L and the FL leader Mark Cross of acquiescent capitulation in the GOP leadership election displays a clear strategy of abandoning FL support in favor of political gain.

What is the political gain that is to be had? Are you saying that you know the motives for the C4L's actions?
I would say this is more a question for Mark Cross to answer. It looks like Mark Cross is attempting to placate the GOP leadership in FL by replacing the "O" with an "N". N for newbitech for all I know. I see no benefit to the campaign to simply "be heard" by the republicans. This strategy earned Ron Paul what so far? Ron Paul is a patient man to be sure, but if we want to get back to constitution republic type government, we will need more than just the ear of the republicans. The only gain I see is for Mark Cross to add yet another GOP victory notch under his political resume (you should check it out by the way.) I don't completely disagree with Mr. Cross' motives. Its great to know that we have an avenue to the inside of FL GOP politics. But, what is someone like me going to do with that? There is no political gain for me because now to many of the people I have influenced, I am part of a movement that is politics as usual. Nothing screams voter apathy more that supporting incumbent GOP leadership in a state that failed to deliver electoral votes to the person who will run the country for the next 4 years. So yeah, ask Mark Cross what the political gain is. I think it was a poor choice motives notwithstanding.

As far a C4L motives and what I know. Well, what have I to base my knowledge and is that reliable?
C4L mission statement:
To promote and defend the great American principles of individual liberty, constitutional government, sound money, free markets, and a noninterventionist foreign policy, by means of educational and political activity.

by means of educational and political activity. I guess we can now add, and endorsing incumbent establishment politicians who promise to listen to us.

Maybe it is my motives I should be questioning. I just don't know where this decision fits in. I am already having a hell of time spinning this to the group of Dem voters that I persuaded to change party affiliations to vote for RP. I might end up losing some of these people over this. Its going to be a hard sell to those libs who would care less if the GOP listens to us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
What I will never understand is cutting off the nose to spite the face. The decision to axe Nick is precisely that.

Could you please explain to me how this is so? (Just trying to understand here).
From wiki, an historical example of cutting off the nose to spite the face.

In supporting the colonists during the American Revolutionary War against the British, France under Louis XVI took on a large unserviceable debt, contributing to the events which later caused the French Revolution and the deposition of the King.

The action to excommunicate Nick serves no purpose in furthering the movement in FL. Who knows what the reprecutions will be? I think the wiki definition of cutting off the nose to spite the face fits perfectly.

"Cutting off the nose to spite the face" is an expression used to describe a needlessly self-destructive over-reaction to a problem: "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face" is a warning against acting out of pique, or against pursuing revenge in a way that would damage oneself more than the source of one's anger.

needlessly self-destructive? Check (C4L in FL didn't NEED to do that and what could be more self-destructive than what is happening right now? at least in FL.)
over-reaction? Check (thanks to Matt posting the facebook exchange, we knew that the decision to get the ball rolling on dumping Nick was something that was happening in private channels. The C4L decided to make the private matter between individuals public. In spite of popular belief on these forums, it was C4L that made the FL problem larger than it needed to be. Classic making mountains out of mole-hills)
acting out of pique? check (apparently some of Nick's arguments got under somebody's skin and they dropped the Ban Hammer because of it. Even went as far as accusing him of lying. What lie did Nick speak? You can't just call someone a liar and not even say what the lie was about. Nick may have had some misinformation, but he is also speaking for what a lot of people think. So the misinformation was taken to the top to be handled. That's what is supposed to happen in a bottom up organization.)
pursuing revenge? probably not, (BUT I wouldn't be surprised if the matter did have some deep personal feelings of betrayal.)
in a way that would damage oneself more than the source of one's anger? Check (no doubt about this. the action hurts C4L's credibility on a national level and bolsters Nick's support on a state/local level. trying to turn Nick in to a demagogue shows that the C4L is willing to play politics as usual (bad for C4L). Challenging the C4L on principle proves Nick's political fearlessness as a leader. (Good for Nick)


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
The C4L is content to drive a spike in to the heart of FL support because quite frankly the C4L and presidential campaign never counted on having FL being a big player anyways.

I understand in a presidential campaign you have to choose your battles but are you saying that the C4L is applying these same battle lines to their growth strategy as in they are focusing on states that can be "won"? Are there any other states that anyone would consider being cut off?Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I wouldn't call it cut off, just ignored. Other states to ignore. How about Michigan for starters? I'd be curious to hear from RP supporters there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
The GOP still LOST THE STATE, yet the C4L leadership is STILL WILLING TO PLAY BALL with the GOP down here!

Can you explain this? How are they doing this?
As far as GOP losing the state, I explained what happened in the primaries in FL somewhere else as far as the Dem/GOP parties go. It is well documented on the web. The Dems still pulled off a win in FL despite having no major primary run up push. It was almost like FL, by deciding to hold primaries early became a complete non-player in the run up to the election. This was clearly a dull party strategy to make sure that FL was not on the radar like it has been the last 2 elections. I'd say it was an elitist power play that left a huge political power vaccuum in FL that will remain until 2010 and probably 2012 if Obama becomes unpopular which I think he should become. The GOP is politically insignificant to base that Ron Paul is after. Why we are trying this strategy of appeasment in FL is beyond me. I hear talk via email and meetups now that the direction we are taking is to be the nice guy techies for all the literally old GOP'ers so they will like us and somehow decide to vote for a Ron Paul Republican. Well first off, there aren't any experienced Ron Paul republican's in FL that I am aware of. I thought maybe Mark Cross was one. I wouldn't vote for him simply because he compromised MY values simply by diverting my endorsement (money) to someone who didn't deserve it. I am STILL WAITING to get a link to Mr. Greer even mentioning constitutional ideals, let alone Ron Paul supporters. Please post the link! Otherwise, why are we trying to scam the scammers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
Debbie and the C4L makes it seem as if there is hardly any interest coming from FL.

How so? By her words "In all of Florida, there are 83 Precinct Leaders. In the County where you were the Interim Coordinator, there are 6 - 4 that joined before you did and 2 after. Hardly enough to constitute a real statewide organization." and standing by Mark Cross' decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
We have no support from national down here,

I haven't seen any direct support here in Texas either. Texas has been holding district meetings around the state and will have a state convention coming up - the C4L isn't helping with this that I understand. What states are getting support?

I'm not sure. I guess I am expecting some sort of plan to be implemented. I would like to see at least some direction on structure. So far, its just been meetups changing names. I got DQ'ed on being a committeeman for my precinct. I moved from Pinelas County to Hillsborough County. I was a precinct leader in Pinelas, I haven't heard anything from the campaign since the campaign. I have only been following the movement through this screen, and of course continue my own personal efforts to educate and inspire folks to be more politically aware and active. Not sure what national support looks like or who is getting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
and in fact it looks like national is working against us.

How so? By kicking out leaders who produce and standing behind leaders who don't. I don't know Nick personaly so I can't really speak for his character. Same with Mark Cross. So all I can really establish an opinion on is based on their actions and results. Nick's argument is based in principle, while Mark's is based on failed politics. It hurts my efforts to inform people that we have real choices and our voices matter when the only political movement I've ever been interested in, let alone involved in decides to compromise on principles for intangible benefits. I am telling you the people of Florida are waiting for a reason to change their government. These moves by C4L and the lack of visibility of any clear choice makes it hard for me to point folks in the right direction. I can talk and talk all I want, but again people need to see results, they need to see this liberty movement in action that is distinctly different from politics as usual, especially GOP politics as usual. I get more milage out of "Incumbent GOP chairman stifled by dissent" than I do, "Incument GOP chairman wins in no contest after grassroots throws in the towel in a bid to be heard."

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
The logic/reason/excuse I am hearing for this? It sounds like we don't want to piss off the establishment!

What has been said that has lead you to this conclusion?
Well, you kind of cut out the context with that question, so please allow me to bring it back to perspective. Please consider the entire paragraph, "Debbie and the C4L makes it seem as if there is hardly any interest coming from FL. Well, I beg to differ with that. We have no support from national down here, and in fact it looks like national is working against us. The logic/reason/excuse I am hearing for this? It sounds like we don't want to piss off the establishment!"

Now have a look at Mr. Tate's, Mr. Cross', and others

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=9025 All of this from Mr. Whiteaker, and comments
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=9189 Posting by zackpack96
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176348 I didn't get the original message from Mr. Tate, so this link has Nick's comments as well.

I am not pointing out specific words here. Only the sentiment. I get this feeling from those in FL who support the decision of Mr. Cross. I would gladly like to hear other explanations of this strategy that don't involve brown nosing the GOP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbitech
That's not going to work in FL!!! Why is FL losing supporters so rapidly? This DEMANDS a reevaluation of the C4L strategies in FL. We should have at the very least a discussion of how the national strategy has HURT FL!

I will be interested to hear this with as many specifics facts as appropriate.

And I believe that this is what Nick was trying to accomplish. I haven't read or heard any evidence to the contrary. Even if Nick's approach was uncharacteristic of a man modelling his political activism after Ron Paul, he didn't deserve to be dismembered and humilated the way he is being now. Is that what I can expect from the campaign if someone in power thinks that I am lying or being untrustworthy? I think it is up to the the C4L to initiate these discussions by being completely transparent and forthcoming with information based on the facts that we already know. I also think that the C4L needs to go ahead and draft that organizational constitution that the states can model, give us by-laws for the national campaign, and start addressing some of the membership requirements in an open forum. Without these basic organizational structures, there really is nothing to discuss other than what to do outside of C4L to get this movement moving.

Bryan,
Thanks for taking the time to try and understand my perspective. I appreciate that and I hope my answers here help you and others here get a better idea of where someone in my shoes is coming from.

[newbitech]

Questions for Sandra and others. Exactly what type of support from the CFL is desired? Also, what criteria should the CFL have to prevent supporting some group that has ulterior motives or is grossly ineffective?

Thanks.

I'd like a link to an organization constitution. Some By-Laws, and basic membership requirements. Here is a link to the rules for the website.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/rulesnregs.php
Why not have some kind of pledge that members agree to?

for your second question. I'd suggest C4L set the example for others to follow. The C4L should make its motives clear and stick to the principles in EVERY decision without compromising those motives. What's the difference between ineffective and "grossly" ineffective? I'd say, make those groups live up to the C4L standards. But before C4L can hold anyone or group to a set of standards, the C4L ought to make those standards plainly visible.

[Matt Collins]

Even if Nick's approach was uncharacteristic of a man modelling his political activism after Ron Paul, he didn't deserve to be dismembered and humilated the way he is being now. EXACTLY!


I also think that the C4L needs to go ahead and draft that organizational constitution that the states can model, give us by-laws for the national campaign, and start addressing some of the membership requirements in an open forum. Without these basic organizational structures, there really is nothing to discuss




I'd like a link to an organization constitution. Some By-Laws, and basic membership requirements.Yup... my guess is that they don't exist yet. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong.



But before C4L can hold anyone or group to a set of standards, the C4L ought to make those standards plainly visible.



You are a brilliant gentlemen and scholar! :)


Why not have some kind of pledge that members agree to? PL's have a NDA they must "sign" here: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/rne.php

[michigan wolverine]

There are plenty of links out there which shows him in violation. I suggest taking the blinders off. Because this Nick fellow did not like Cross's action he resorted to labeling Cross as a Benedict Arnold. I reiterate it shows a lack of maturity. The links of the newspaper blogs that Matt posted reguarding the county REC shows the same pettiness. And I believe it was Sandra that pointed out the same of another instance on this forum from last spring. Something goes wrong and this Nick fellow starts with the name calling and bad nouthing.

There has been talk as to how the CFL should be run. Either top down or bottom up. I will say this if I was in Mr. Tate's shoes I would be running it top down. He and others at CFL headquarters are making their living by running CFL. They should be appointing the people to run the states and county organization. There Everybody who joins CFL is just a volunteer. It's the people at headquarters who's reputation that will be affected. And anyone that does not agree can unvolunteer themself. If Headquarters wants to move in one direction and some affiliates want move in another it shows a lack of cohesiveness.

[Matt Collins]

There are plenty of links out there which shows him in violation.In violation of what? :confused:



There has been talk as to how the CFL should be run. Either top down or bottom up. I will say this if I was in Mr. Tate's shoes I would be running it top down. He and others at CFL headquarters are making their living by running CFL. They should be appointing the people to run the states and county organization. There Everybody who joins CFL is just a volunteer. It's the people at headquarters who's reputation that will be affected. And anyone that does not agree can unvolunteer themself. If Headquarters wants to move in one direction and some affiliates want move in another it shows a lack of cohesiveness.You are welcome to your opinion, and what you have just said in this paragraph is absolutely valid. However I would argue that too much "top-down" control can and has lead to the situation that Florida is currently in. We obviously don't want a democracy organization where it's sheer mob rule / anarchy, but to achieve the happy medium we need founding documents, constitution, by-laws, etc. So far I have seen none of that, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[michigan wolverine]

Yes Nick wants to reap the rewards of national CFL has done. While he is highly critical of them and other CFL ers.

[Matt Collins]

Yes Nick wants to reap the rewards of national CFL has done. This doesn't make any sense.

[LittleLightShining]

We want support from the CFL in Louisiana, just not obvious support. It's best to let them run in the background without any direct presence in the LAGOP. It's probably best that CFL not even be mentioned while in state GOP meetings.



The problem in Louisiana is there needs to be a much stealthier approach to diverting the GOP. All the sign waving at the convention only ostracized us more as if we were there to take over against the will of the majority. There were people there that would have been more receptive if we acted less aggressive (yet work aggressively). I think if the CFL worked with GOP members as an underground org and incorporate think tank capabilities to teach us how to achieve an end through gentle means. The neocons did it, we can too.

Ron Paul asked us to become involved in the GOP which is what I did. In less than a year I am now on the executive committee of my county GOP. I have been a shameless RP supporter all the while but focusing more on the message than the man. The GOP leadership here had already endorsed McCain so I knew I wasn't doing myself any favors harping on Ron Paul and acting like he was the second-coming.

Once we set a date for our statewide "convention" I made no bones about mentioning the event at a number of county meetings. I was thrilled that 5 out of about 50 people in attendance were members of my GOP committee and they were very enthusiastic about the event, organization and what we want to do in VT.

The VT Campaign For Liberty has decided to organize itself as a non-partisan group and I think this is a huge draw not only for card-carrying Republicans but for Libertarians and classical liberal Progressives as well. We are expanding our reach by NOT focusing on the GOP.

I agree with Sandra. It is not in the best interest of the liberty movement to be so engaged with taking over the GOP. We in VTC4L are encouraging our members to join and become active in whatever party they tend towards bringing the liberty message with them.

[Sandra]

Ron Paul asked us to become involved in the GOP which is what I did. In less than a year I am now on the executive committee of my county GOP. I have been a shameless RP supporter all the while but focusing more on the message than the man. The GOP leadership here had already endorsed McCain so I knew I wasn't doing myself any favors harping on Ron Paul and acting like he was the second-coming.

Once we set a date for our statewide "convention" I made no bones about mentioning the event at a number of county meetings. I was thrilled that 5 out of about 50 people in attendance were members of my GOP committee and they were very enthusiastic about the event, organization and what we want to do in VT.

The VT Campaign For Liberty has decided to organize itself as a non-partisan group and I think this is a huge draw not only for card-carrying Republicans but for Libertarians and classical liberal Progressives as well. We are expanding our reach by NOT focusing on the GOP.

I agree with Sandra. It is not in the best interest of the liberty movement to be so engaged with taking over the GOP. We in VTC4L are encouraging our members to join and become active in whatever party they tend towards bringing the liberty message with them.

Exactly, even Democrats are migrating to less government. All parties should be operating on the basis of the Constitution. The differences between parties should be minor.

[michigan wolverine]

It makes no sense? Take off the blinders of friendship. CFL national gathers all of these names emails and so on. And if Nick had been named state coordinator he would have gotten access to this information.

[Matt Collins]

It makes no sense? Take off the blinders of friendship. CFL national gathers all of these names emails and so on. And if Nick had been named state coordinator he would have gotten access to this information.I don't understand... what is your point? :confused:

[Matt Collins]

Debbie -

Why no response yet?

[LibertyEagle]

I would imagine she is quite busy, Matt.

I have a copy of the letter. I will send it to you.

[Matt Collins]

I would imagine she is quite busy, Matt.I understand. But she took the time to respond to other posts in this thread. Why not come back and respond to the rest of the conversation?


I have a copy of the letter. I will send it to you.I've already seen that and it does not address the questions here in this thread.

[LibertyEagle]

You claimed you had not received the letter she emailed to you, so I provided you with the letter, again.

If you need something else, you probably need to ask someone in C4L. www.campaignforliberty.com

[Matt Collins]

You claimed you had not received the letter she emailed to you, so I provided you with the letter, again.Yes I had already seen that letter. I thought she had sent me something other than a canned response that everyone else got.


If you need something else, you probably need to ask someone in C4L.Debbie isn't in the CFL? :confused:

[Sandra]

Yes I had already seen that letter. I thought she had sent me something other than a canned response that everyone else got.

Debbie isn't in the CFL? :confused:

Quit being a....

[Matt Collins]

Quit being a dumbass.Personal attacks, insults, and name calling... thought you were above that...guess not...pretty sad :rolleyes:

[Sandra]

Personal attacks, insults, and name calling... thought you were above that...guess not...pretty sad :rolleyes:

Oh, no no.... that last post to LE officially made you a dumbass. You have talked yourself into being completely irrelevant.

[Matt Collins]

Oh, no no.... that last post to LE officially made you a dumbass. You have talked yourself into being completely irrelevant.More insults.... lame...

[Matt Collins]

Debbie... still no response... what gives?

[angelatc]

Yes I had already seen that letter. I thought she had sent me something other than a canned response that everyone else got.



No, I did not get that impression either Matt. I think she said she included you in the mass email even though you're not a Florida member.

[Melissa]

Debbie... still no response... what gives?

I am betting she does not sit on these forums like you do and is actually out being productive, why don't you email her and if that don't work go do something else with your time

[Sandra]

I am betting she does not sit on these forums like you do and is actually out being productive, why don't you email her and if that don't work go do something else with your time


Matt has become irrelevent to the CFL and the members therein. Why did you do it, Matt? I mean you're on this forum 24/7 . You could have used your time to further the movement instead of a failed attempt to tear it apart, why?

[Matt Collins]

Matt has become irrelevent to the CFL and the members therein. HA! You have no clue about what you are talking about. I am the guy who has created the first CFL event and training session in TN feat Rand coming up this Saturday. I am a member of the RLC (soon to be an officer), about to become a member of the America's Future Foundation, responsible for a large portion of the liberty activity in Middle Tennessee, and I am also the county coordinator for the capitol of TN.

So how exactly am I irellevent? :confused:

Please get a clue and grow up.

[Matt Collins]

why don't you email her and if that don't work go do something else with your timeWell she responded to me and held dialog here on the forums therefore it would be reasonable to expect her to continue or finish the conversation in the same place, would it not? Also don't you think that openness and transparency are important?

[heath.whiteaker]

Matt. I do not believe that the C4L is answering any questions.... It seems Mrs. Hopper refuses to justify any actions. Nick will not be coming back in the C4L however my concern is Tom who was caught in the middle of all of this. Tom has been an awesome coordinator.... how many other local C4L groups do you know that went out and created and bought their own bumper stickers for the movement. His group did. I really believe that this is really wrong. However Mrs. Hopper or her assistant Mrs. Wells refuse to be questioned about it. They do not return emails or phone calls. Seems very professional to me.

[Melissa]

Well she responded to me and held dialog here on the forums therefore it would be reasonable to expect her to continue or finish the conversation in the same place, would it not? Also don't you think that openness and transparency are important?

I think u worry way to much about national and not enough about your state. I have read much of what you write and don't usually comment but yes openness is very important and I have had no problems with that from national so maybe the question should be why are you. Maybe your way of asking, maybe not but still, I believe that you need to focus on your state. Are you all done with your precinct Leader questions, have you tracked bills that are coming up in your state. There is so much more you could be doing then worry about Debbie coming to these forums to answer every little thing you want. If you are not getting the answers you want go do something else

I will never understand how people get so mad about what national is doing when there is just so much to be done and talents can be used anywhere but specifically in your own town, National can't do anything there

[heath.whiteaker]

Melissa as a District Coordinator... You would think that I would at least get some answers from National since our State Coordinator can not answer them.... or says that it came from National not him....

Debbie is very lax in doing her job. The only thing I have seen come from her email wise was the canned response letter. As for you stating that we need to only be concerned with our own local level I feel that is incorrect. Most of the problems we are encountering locally or statewide have to do with National.

I specifically remember during the Leadership Summit in Minnesota about this being questioned. This one small question seemed to ruffle the feathers of the leadership. I feel that C4L is dropping the ball by not corresponding with leadership within the movement.

[Sandra]

Melissa as a District Coordinator... You would think that I would at least get some answers from National since our State Coordinator can not answer them.... or says that it came from National not him....

Debbie is very lax in doing her job. The only thing I have seen come from her email wise was the canned response letter. As for you stating that we need to only be concerned with our own local level I feel that is incorrect. Most of the problems we are encountering locally or statewide have to do with National.

I specifically remember during the Leadership Summit in Minnesota about this being questioned. This one small question seemed to ruffle the feathers of the leadership. I feel that C4L is dropping the ball by not corresponding with leadership within the movement.

The crux of the matter is that you guys demand a public stage to act out your grievances. No, you probably will not ge a response from CFL because you will air it here. Blame yourselves.

I've had disagreements with them too but I didn't display it .

[Melissa]

Melissa as a District Coordinator... You would think that I would at least get some answers from National since our State Coordinator can not answer them.... or says that it came from National not him....

Debbie is very lax in doing her job. The only thing I have seen come from her email wise was the canned response letter. As for you stating that we need to only be concerned with our own local level I feel that is incorrect. Most of the problems we are encountering locally or statewide have to do with National.

I specifically remember during the Leadership Summit in Minnesota about this being questioned. This one small question seemed to ruffle the feathers of the leadership. I feel that C4L is dropping the ball by not corresponding with leadership within the movement.

Tell me what your questions are maybe I can help, if not maybe we can figure out who can. So lets start there.

[Melissa]

Melissa as a District Coordinator... You would think that I would at least get some answers from National since our State Coordinator can not answer them.... or says that it came from National not him....

Debbie is very lax in doing her job. The only thing I have seen come from her email wise was the canned response letter. As for you stating that we need to only be concerned with our own local level I feel that is incorrect. Most of the problems we are encountering locally or statewide have to do with National.

I specifically remember during the Leadership Summit in Minnesota about this being questioned. This one small question seemed to ruffle the feathers of the leadership. I feel that C4L is dropping the ball by not corresponding with leadership within the movement.


and we will have to agree to disagree because yes I feel that local is what everyone needs to worry about, national can't take back your local area only you can and if we are all working locally then the rest will fall into place.

[Matt Collins]

As for you stating that we need to only be concerned with our own local level I feel that is incorrect. Most of the problems we are encountering locally or statewide have to do with National. Absolutely... And I agree and I would also say that I don't want to run or dictate to the CFL-HQ. But our state can't organize formally until we know what binding documents need to be followed. So far nothing from HQ on this. We are being held back in that regard.




I feel that C4L is dropping the ball by not corresponding with leadership within the movement.They have responded with a memo, but that memo isn't binding. If our State sets up an organization based upon the contents of an unbinding memo and come to find out the official CFL by-laws are not concurrent with that memo, then we're in quite a fix.... I'd just like to see something official and binding so that I can take it and run with it.

[Matt Collins]

I feel that local is what everyone needs to worry about, ...then the rest will fall into place.You're right. But if we are to be a part of a national organization then we need to know what the national rules and boundaries are.

[Matt Collins]

The crux of the matter is that you guys demand a public stage to act out your grievances. My two grievances with the CFL-HQ are this - they have not shown us any binding documents (by-laws, etc), and they arbitrarily expelled two people in Florida but could not cite which rules were broken or what "legal" instrument allowed them to do such.

The expulsion issue was made public by Benton, CFL-HQ VP when he called Nick Egoroff a liar in front of 500+ people. That's on the verge of libel.

The other issue is something we should all be concerned about which is, how do we organize our states in compliance with what the CFL-HQ expects if we don't know what the by-laws and other relevent binding documents say? And that isn't a personal public grievence, that's a nationwide grievence shared by many.




No, you probably will not ge a response from CFL because you will air it here. This is a logical fallacy since Debbie Hopper has replied here several times... why not continue with the middle of the conversation? :confused:

[Matt Collins]

Tell me what your questions are maybe I can help, if not maybe we can figure out who can. So lets start there.
See these threads:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176051
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=175942

[Melissa]

See these threads:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176051
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=175942

I am not reading a bunch of new lists from you, if you have a question ask and I will help if I can otherwise I guess just keep complaining.

[Melissa]

=Matt Collins;1937189]My two grievances with the CFL-HQ are this - they have not shown us any binding documents (by-laws, etc), and they arbitrarily expelled two people in Florida but could not cite which rules were broken or what "legal" instrument allowed them to do such.

The expulsion issue was made public by Benton, CFL-HQ VP when he called Nick Egoroff a liar in front of 500+ people. That's on the verge of libel.

and this has to deal with how your state wants to form how again


The other issue is something we should all be concerned about which is, how do we organize our states in compliance with what the CFL-HQ expects if we don't know what the by-laws and other relevent binding documents say? And that isn't a personal public grievence, that's a nationwide grievence shared by many.



This is a logical fallacy since Debbie Hopper has replied here several times... why not continue with the middle of the conversation? :confused:

You organize your state how your state wants bottom line, lets pretend that you you don't jive with National, you can either re word your states bylaws to fit or you don't but again you don't want to do that, it is more fun I think for you to stick with the Drama then actually go out and do something productive

[Matt Collins]

I am not reading a bunch of new lists from you, if you have a question ask and I will help if I can otherwise I guess just keep complaining.Why would you offer to answer my questions and then refuse to read them? :confused:

[Matt Collins]

You organize your state how your state wants bottom line, lets pretend that you you don't jive with National, you can either re word your states bylaws to fit Why should we have to go through that type of effort again (which could possibly divide each State org) when we could just do it right the first time? :confused:

[newbitech]

I know this is old school, but I just wanted to point out that the guy that Mark Cross thru his support behind, the incumbent GOP chair at the time who worked to kick Ron Paul supporters out of the political process? Yeah, he is in jail now for stealing from donors.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2010/6/2/625194.html?title=Former+Florida+GOP+chairman+Jim+ Greer+arrested


ORLANDO (AP) -- The former chairman of the Republican Party of Florida has been arrested for allegedly running a scam bilking money from the party.

The Florida Department of Law enforcement took Jim Greer into custody Wednesday at his Orlando-area home.

The 47-year-old has been charged with one count of organized scheme to defraud, four counts of felony grand theft and one count of money laundering.

"He developed a scheme to take money from the GOP of Florida,' said state prosecutor William Shepherd. "Through a shell company that he created called Victory Strategies.'


I think Nick Egoroff was right all along and the C4L and Benton probably owe Egoroff an appology. Egoroff sniffed out a rat. Not sure how much Mark Cross knows, but clearly we sacrificed political capital down here in FL to appease a thieving and coniving politician who STOLE donations from supporters. I wonder how many Floridians followed Mark Cross into supporting Jim Greer with their wallets as well as their votes.

We need professionals down here in FL to wrestle away the power of the establishment. From what I can see, supporting Greer was an ametuer mistake THEN, and it is down right suspicious now with criminal accusations going around and the man at the root of the controversy being arrested for grand theft and laundering.

In a political climate where the Paul campaigns axe people because of 2 year old blog comments about racism, I'd have to raise some eyebrows about the anointed leader of the Florida campaign endorsing this criminal for political favor.

[Matt Collins]

I like Mark and I like Nick. I think that Mark just made a mistake, but it's not the end of the world. I don't have any problems with Jesse any more either.

[newbitech]

I like Mark and I like Nick. I think that Mark just made a mistake, but it's not the end of the world. I don't have any problems with Jesse any more either.


I don't know either of them personally. I think Mark did make a mistake. I think Nick was right to be pissed. And I wish Florida had some leaders that I could get behind.

I am not surprised by the money laundering that was going on in the FLGOP. I long for the days of late 2007 and early 2008 when Florida liberty lovers had momentum.

I wish there was more I could do politically, for example run for an office. I feel like there is no liberty movement down here.

I am going to dive back into the meetup pool again and hopefully find some activist that are ready to put up some resistance to the status quo.