What about State and Local Governments?

[socialize_me]

Our whole foundation seems to be critical of big government, and it seems a lot of our efforts (and rightly so) are aimed at downsizing the Federal Government, but what roles should our State and Local governments have in our lives? I mean, if the Federal Government provides a stable, uniform currency, a road system, a military, and a judicial system, what other things do we need? Maybe state roads...schools...and a state judicial system, but other than that, it seems like State governments should be smaller than the Federal Government, no?

Anarchists, please keep your "how about no government :p??" replies to yourselves.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

There are more legitimate arguments at the state and local levels about what government can and cannot do. The US Constitution pretty specifically limits the federal government.

Legitimate government at all levels should consist of protecting my nose from your fist. That's about it. It's also incredibly difficult, upon forming such a government, to limit it to that.

[LittleLightShining]

Schools and healthcare are the two primary budget eaters here in VT. I think we could be just as well off with school choice but the climate here isn't conducive to this type of thinking yet. People also feel that healthcare should be a function of the state-- thanks, Hillary :(

Anyway, there are other "essential services" that "the most vulnerable in our society" need-- such as food stamps, heating assistance, rent subsidies... the list goes on.

I hear you, though. Personally I don't think we can have that much of an effect on the federal level and we really ought to be focusing on the state and local levels, emphasizing the 10th amendment. Which is pretty hard to do now, here, because the Democrat-heavy legislature is sitting patiently, drooling with its paw out begging for a stimulus biscuit.

[Andrew-Austin]

Our whole foundation seems to be critical of big government, and it seems a lot of our efforts (and rightly so) are aimed at downsizing the Federal Government, but what roles should our State and Local governments have in our lives? I mean, if the Federal Government provides a stable, uniform currency, a road system, a military, and a judicial system, what other things do we need? Maybe state roads...schools...and a state judicial system, but other than that, it seems like State governments should be smaller than the Federal Government, no?

Anarchists, please keep your "how about no government :p??" replies to yourselves.

Yeah, there is nothing particularly special about local - state government. Only things that differ from Federal government in my mind is:
1. Its supposedly easier to change/remove bad policies at the local level
2. There is more representation

Off topic question, why do we need the Federal government again? I'd much rather live in a independent Republic of Texas, which handled currency, roadways, militia, and judicial system without the 'help' of the Feds.

[danberkeley]

Anarchists, please keep your "how about no government :p??" replies to yourselves.

Well, then you are not taking your question seriously and neither shall I.

[socialize_me]

Well, then you are not taking your question seriously and neither shall I.

If I'm not taking my question seriously, then you're not taking life realistically.

I can show you an example of anarchy. Go checkout eastern Somalia where two months ago they stoned a 15 year old girl to death while over 1,000 people looked on just because she was raped and that's considered fornication. Yeah, there's no government there and there's no respect for reason or life.

Can you imagine that?? You get raped then you get stoned to death because you were raped. So when someone burns down your house, do you get a life sentence in prison there??

Theorize away...there's no example of anarchy working in modern society. None anywhere. Never would work with European descent anyway as most Americans have. It's just in our blood to do stupid shit with or without government. It's just that government tends to hold us over for a couple hundred years before we need a new one. It's better than having constant slaughter in your anarchist utopia.

[Andrew-Austin]

If I'm not taking my question seriously, then you're not taking life realistically.

I can show you an example of anarchy. Go checkout eastern Somalia where two months ago they stoned a 15 year old girl to death while over 1,000 people looked on just because she was raped and that's considered fornication. Yeah, there's no government there and there's no respect for reason or life.

Can you imagine that?? You get raped then you get stoned to death because you were raped. So when someone burns down your house, do you get a life sentence in prison there??

Theorize away...there's no example of anarchy working in modern society. None anywhere. Never would work with European descent anyway as most Americans have. It's just in our blood to do stupid shit with or without government. It's just that government tends to hold us over for a couple hundred years before we need a new one. It's better than having constant slaughter in your anarchist utopia.

Please stop acting so snobby about the issue of anarchy, its not as clear cut as you'd like it to be with the "but but Somalia" argument you like the rehash.

There has never been a good example of working government either, and in today's world the most libertarian model of minarchist government sounds 'theoretical' as well. The greatest dealers of death and injustice throughout history have been governments, backed up by their own pathetic little theories. So what though huh?

[danberkeley]

If I'm not taking my question seriously, then you're not taking life realistically.

I can show you an example of anarchy. Go checkout eastern Somalia where two months ago they stoned a 15 year old girl to death while over 1,000 people looked on just because she was raped and that's considered fornication. Yeah, there's no government there and there's no respect for reason or life.

Can you imagine that?? You get raped then you get stoned to death because you were raped. So when someone burns down your house, do you get a life sentence in prison there??

Theorize away...there's no example of anarchy working in modern society. None anywhere. Never would work with European descent anyway as most Americans have. It's just in our blood to do stupid shit with or without government. It's just that government tends to hold us over for a couple hundred years before we need a new one. It's better than having constant slaughter in your anarchist utopia.

In a minarchy, what would be the purpose of government?

[socialize_me]

Please stop acting so snobby about the issue of anarchy, its not as clear cut as you'd like it to be with the "but but Somalia" argument you like the rehash.

There has never been a good example of working government either, and in today's world the most libertarian model of minarchist government sounds 'theoretical' as well. The greatest dealers of death and injustice throughout history have been governments, backed up by their own pathetic little theories. So what though huh?

True, but if I had a choice between the government we have now and anarchy, I would certainly choose what we got. At least I have a roof over my head and don't have to worry about the guillotine on a daily basis.

So much is said that our government feeds off of fear mongering. Anarchy lives off it. Could you imagine America without a government?? I mean, if the Christian fundamentalists are THIS well structured in America today, I wouldn't want to see how they'd be like if there wasn't a government to keep them from persecuting homosexuals. It would be worse than what happens in Somalia in fact, because you wouldn't even need to wait for a homosexual act to occur. They'd just lynch your ass on the spot.

The fundamentalists thrive in anarchy. We then essentially have factions killing each other in America. Basically, we'd be separated in tribes. Here we go again with medieval family rivalries...

[socialize_me]

In a minarchy, what would be the purpose of government?

Dude, have you looked around in the real world at all?? I mean, you hear reports of two people getting trampled to death in a department store on Black Friday just so that people can get a 40% discount on a fucking Christmas gift. YOU trust Americans to be able to live in harmony in an anarchist state?? LOL...

Tell me the difference between democracy and anarchy. Democracy is often called "mobocracy" because majority kills minority. How is this different from anarchy where warlords and factions rise up?

The other poster was right--there is no example of government working permanently. But I'm willing to bet that the 232 year track record of the United States with a republican government has lasted longer than any anarchist country ever could. There is no "fix" for how to structure government, but a republic sure as hell beats these loons, who trample and kill fellow human beings just to put a fucking toy under the tree, from being unshackled.

[danberkeley]

Dude, have you looked around in the real world at all?? I mean, you hear reports of two people getting trampled to death in a department store on Black Friday just so that people can get a 40% discount on a fucking Christmas gift. YOU trust Americans to be able to live in harmony in an anarchist state?? LOL...

Tell me the difference between democracy and anarchy. Democracy is often called "mobocracy" because majority kills minority. How is this different from anarchy where warlords and factions rise up?

The other poster was right--there is no example of government working permanently. But I'm willing to bet that the 232 year track record of the United States with a republican government has lasted longer than any anarchist country ever could. There is no "fix" for how to structure government, but a republic sure as hell beats these loons, who trample and kill fellow human beings just to put a fucking toy under the tree, from being unshackled.

If you are going to fail in your reply, at least attempt to answer the question.

[Nate K]

True, but if I had a choice between the government we have now and anarchy, I would certainly choose what we got. At least I have a roof over my head and don't have to worry about the guillotine on a daily basis.

So much is said that our government feeds off of fear mongering. Anarchy lives off it. Could you imagine America without a government?? I mean, if the Christian fundamentalists are THIS well structured in America today, I wouldn't want to see how they'd be like if there wasn't a government to keep them from persecuting homosexuals. It would be worse than what happens in Somalia in fact, because you wouldn't even need to wait for a homosexual act to occur. They'd just lynch your ass on the spot.

The fundamentalists thrive in anarchy. We then essentially have factions killing each other in America. Basically, we'd be separated in tribes. Here we go again with medieval family rivalries...

why don't you spend some time now entertaining thoughts that aren't completely chaotic and worst case scenario?

[socialize_me]

why don't you spend some time now entertaining thoughts that aren't completely chaotic and worst case scenario?

Uhm...this isn't "worst case scenario". It seems like every year we hear shoppers get injured or even killed during Black Friday when there's a mad dash for gifts. It's almost become part of our culture.

Quit thinking in the utopian best case scenario. The Founders thought in the worst case scenario to put up all these Constitutional safeguards. You guys are thinking and hoping the best case happens, because anything less than a best case scenario would bring your entire theory/utopia down. It's true! All you need is one person to disrupt the order and the entire community/country plunges into chaos. Just look at 9/11 and what a few terrorists were able to do. Not only how Congress reacted, but how the people did. Absolute pandemonium.

[danberkeley]

Dude, have you looked around in the real world at all??

Yes.


I mean, you hear reports of two people getting trampled to death in a department store on Black Friday just so that people can get a 40% discount on a fucking Christmas gift. YOU trust Americans to be able to live in harmony in an anarchist state?? LOL...

Fail. Anarchy does not promise harmony.


Tell me the difference between democracy and anarchy. Democracy is often called "mobocracy" because majority kills minority. How is this different from anarchy where warlords and factions rise up?

Fail. Democracy is not the same as anarchy.


The other poster was right--there is no example of government working permanently.

Yes. Here's a cookie:

http://www.sallys-place.com/food/columns/zonis/Best_Cookie-20.jpg


But I'm willing to bet that the 232 year track record of the United States with a republican government has lasted longer than any anarchist country ever could.

Fail. The US government has not been republican for 232 years.


There is no "fix" for how to structure government, but a republic sure as hell beats these loons, who trample and kill fellow human beings just to put a fucking toy under the tree, from being unshackled.

Fail. See above.

[danberkeley]

Uhm...this isn't "worst case scenario". It seems like every year we hear shoppers get injured or even killed during Black Friday when there's a mad dash for gifts. It's almost become part of our culture.

Quit thinking in the utopian best case scenario. The Founders thought in the worst case scenario to put up all these Constitutional safeguards. You guys are thinking and hoping the best case happens, because anything less than a best case scenario would bring your entire theory/utopia down. It's true! All you need is one person to disrupt the order and the entire community/country plunges into chaos. Just look at 9/11 and what a few terrorists were able to do. Not only how Congress reacted, but how the people did. Absolute pandemonium.

Fail. Anarchy does not promise utopia.

[socialize_me]

Fail. Anarchy does not promise utopia.


LOL so how does anarchy not produce genocide when there's no utopia?? If one person shoots you, I'm sure your friends will shoot the shooter. When a third party sees this happen, they'll kill your friend because they didn't understand the circumstances. The process continues from there. To think no one would murder would be a utopian society, and when anarchy reigns, retaliation and an eye-for-an-eye attitude prospers. There wouldn't be any restraint. If you piss off someone, they have no fear of prosecution and can just rob your house. Anarchy has no recourse.

Fail. You're annoying as hell. Go on and play with your unicorns in paradise.

[danberkeley]

LOL so how does anarchy not produce genocide when there's no utopia??

Fail. Non sequitur.


If one person shoots you, I'm sure your friends will shoot the shooter.

Assuming my friends havent shot me first. Afterall, this is chaos. :p :D Fail.


When a third party sees this happen, they'll kill your friend because they didn't understand the circumstances. The process continues from there. To think no one would murder would be a utopian society, and when anarchy reigns, retaliation and an eye-for-an-eye attitude prospers. There wouldn't be any restraint. If you piss off someone, they have no fear of prosecution and can just rob your house. Anarchy has no recourse.

Fail. Anarchy does not promise no murder.


Fail. You're annoying as hell. Go on and play with your unicorns in paradise.

Fail. I don't like unicorns.