Is it true that black people earn less for the same job?

[ShannonOBrien]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_12_100/ai_77931191/

I was reading this article which I got from wikipedia and I tried to find out what mises.org said about it but there was nothing. Anybody know what the real deal is?

[Elwar]

Blonde hairdressers with brown eyes make .89/1.00 for every dollar that Redhead hairdressers with blue eyes make.

[ShannonOBrien]

Blonde hairdressers with brown eyes make .89/1.00 for every dollar that Redhead hairdressers with blue eyes make.

I'm a redhead with blue eyes!... but I'm not a hairdresser. :(

[worl]

Depends on where they are. Here in the south blacks are paid about half of what white males are paid. We do have to keep up our reputation as racist.

[AutoDas]

So? do you measure equality with dollars and cents? If you feel you're undervalued as an employee then leave. All those top paying jobs are probably being over payed.

[tremendoustie]

Depends on where they are. Here in the south blacks are paid about half of what white males are paid. We do have to keep up our reputation as racist.

Wow, is that for the same job at the same company?

Regarding the OP, there are a lot of socioeconomic factors its hard to control for. For example, inner city lawyers or doctors might make less than those in the suburbs, and statistically inner cities have a higher percentage of blacks.

It'd be extremely hard to weed out all these factors and show that there is a real disparity due to only racism. My view is that although racists still exist (unfortunately), perhaps especially near worl, the overwhelming majority of this disparity is due to other reasons.

Same with women -- there are many other reasons that could affect these statistics.

You'd have to compare people with an equal amount of experience, and equal qualifications, working at the same companies.

[Elwar]

The question to ask would be, why would anyone do statistics based on someone's melanin level?
I think eye color would be better since that doesn't change based on sun exposure.
Except for when someone wears colored contacts.

Crazy statisticians.

[JK/SEA]

Thats why we have labor UNIONS.

We need them.

[Elwar]

Thats why we have labor UNIONS.

We need them.

Yes, they help in rewarding the non-productive.

Works for the auto industry.

[nullvalu]

Yes, they help in rewarding the non-productive.

Works for the auto industry.

And steel industry. And electricians. And...... oh, nevermind.

[JK/SEA]

Yes, they help in rewarding the non-productive.

Works for the auto industry.

Not in all unions. (and there are many).. The Union i was in, if a person wasn't 'productive' usually that person was forced out through attrition, or put on part time, and kept away from any promotions, and in many cases just quit, or was terminated with the Union's blessing. I used to be a Shop Steward, and i didn't like people who came in getting the good Union wage and bennies, and think they could be slackers. It makes the rest of the true hard working Union member look bad.

The auto worker union needs new leadership, and a dose of reality. Don't equate this union with good unions.

Its like bad mouthing Ron Paul because he belongs to the asshat republican party.

[orafi]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block112.html


Dr. Block on pay gaps and the glass ceiling.

[JK/SEA]

And steel industry. And electricians. And...... oh, nevermind.

you don't know anything about labor unions, and why they are needed. As the OP stated, why do blacks make less than whites in certain jobs? because the idea that employers will do the RIGHT thing is a fools game.

nuff said.

[AutoDas]

you don't know anything about labor unions, and why they are needed. As the OP stated, why do blacks make less than whites in certain jobs? because the idea that employers will do the RIGHT thing is a fools game.

nuff said.

http://www.mises.org

You need to go there and read up. Naturally, you would be free to join a union in a free market but there would be no point to a cartel.

[Elwar]

The Union i was in, if a person wasn't 'productive' usually that person was forced out through attrition, or put on part time, and kept away from any promotions, and in many cases just quit, or was terminated with the Union's blessing.

As opposed to...just being fired?

[orafi]

you don't know anything about labor unions, and why they are needed. As the OP stated, why do blacks make less than whites in certain jobs? because the idea that employers will do the RIGHT thing is a fools game.

nuff said.

there are more privileged whites than there are blacks. you will see an iq gap. that's why there's a pay gap. employers can get more out of more whites than they can blacks. this is the sad truth.

reason why women get payed less is because a lot of them cannot handle the work load a man can, and there are a lot of women that have to deal with work and stress that comes with marriage. so they are not able to put 100 percent into their productivity.

[Elwar]

Look at it this way...why aren't companies just hiring a bunch people from groups that don't get paid as much and paying them low wages? They would make out well against their competitors because they don't have to spend as much on their employees. When their competitors find out about this there would be a mad scramble to also hire these low paid groups as well.

Or are employees just evil and don't want certain races or genders in their company?

[JK/SEA]

there are more privileged whites than there are blacks. you will see an iq gap. that's why there's a pay gap. employers can get more out of more whites than they can blacks. this is the sad truth.

reason why women get payed less is because a lot of them cannot handle the work load a man can, and there are a lot of women that have to deal with work and stress that comes with marriage. so they are not able to put 100 percent into their productivity.


Again, and i'll use different terms here. In my Union, we had checks and balances. Someone applies for a job. If they pass the interviews, the drug test, the physical test, and simple math tests, they get hired. From there they are on 60 day probation, which means they can be fired without cause during this time.

Then there are 'surprise' drug tests during probation and a re-evaluation of performance.

You get through all this you usually have a good job with good pay and bennies.

IF, you decide its now ok to slack off, or come in stoned, thats where the Foreman and Shop Stewards come in, and trust me, if that happens you usually don't have a job for long, as your 'file' gets loaded with bad reports, and HR just loves to fire people because they hate Unions and would rather have people working for a dollar an hour.

This system works very well, and we ALWAYS had hard workers who gave a shit about their company, and Union, and took pride in their work. Company wins, union wins.

[danberkeley]

I;m assuming this excludes professional sports and any other jobs where blacks make more than whites. Afterall...

[AutoDas]

Again, and i'll use different terms here. In my Union, we had checks and balances. Someone applies for a job. If they pass the interviews, the drug test, the physical test, and simple math tests, they get hired. From there they are on 60 day probation, which means they can be fired without cause during this time.

Then there are 'surprise' drug tests during probation and a re-evaluation of performance.

You get through all this you usually have a good job with good pay and bennies.

IF, you decide its now ok to slack off, or come in stoned, thats where the Foreman and Shop Stewards come in, and trust me, if that happens you usually don't have a job for long, as your 'file' gets loaded with bad reports, and HR just loves to fire people because they hate Unions and would rather have people working for a dollar an hour.

This system works very well, and we ALWAYS had hard workers who gave a shit about their company, and Union, and took pride in their work. Company wins, union wins.

And the owner can't fire their own employees because...?

[eric_cartman]

it's also true that taller people make more than shorter people on average.

but it's not as if an employer will consciously hire a taller person on purpose... nor will an employer decide to pay someone more money based on their height. so a tall person and a short person working at the same company, doing the same job, probably get paid the same amount. but when you take the averages of everyone... a tall person will tend to earn more money than a shorter person, even if they were otherwise identical.

[danberkeley]

it's also true that taller people make more than shorter people on average.

It's also true that minorities are overrepresented in professional sports and in the rap/hip hop industry and in historically-black colleges. Where's the lawsuit to fix that? :D

[sdczen]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_12_100/ai_77931191/

I was reading this article which I got from wikipedia and I tried to find out what mises.org said about it but there was nothing. Anybody know what the real deal is?

In most places, I do not believe for a minute that their are racial or gender biases when it comes to pay. There are laws against that practice and they are quite enforceable. A few years back when I worked for the 'man', I was in charge of several departments and responsible for hiring. I can tell you that from my experience, there is no way I could have discriminated in terms of pay. We had many very large binders full of wage averages & job descriptions. These were all maintained by Human Resources and scrutinized heavily.

This does not make economical sense either. If you could pay different races/genders a much lower wage than a white male and keep the same production level, then why wouldn't all employers hire along racial/gender lines? There would be companies full of singular races or genders because their price/performance ratios would be much higher than the competition.

As a business consultant, I rarely, if ever see this practice in reality.

[Feenix566]

Look at it this way...why aren't companies just hiring a bunch people from groups that don't get paid as much and paying them low wages? They would make out well against their competitors because they don't have to spend as much on their employees. When their competitors find out about this there would be a mad scramble to also hire these low paid groups as well.

Or are employees just evil and don't want certain races or genders in their company?

This is the correct answer.


If blacks and women did the same exact work for less pay, no one would ever hire a white male. Black women would have every job on the planet.

[JK/SEA]

And the owner can't fire their own employees because...?

Read up on Labor Unions, and the hows and why's of how they got here. GOOGLE is your best friend.

I would add here that Unions have the ability to get good workers for companies as a general rule. This part of the agreement companies get by entering into a union shop scenario. Unions can be a tough lot, and not everyone is qualified to enter this 'club', depending on the industry of course.

[nullvalu]

Read up on Labor Unions, and the hows and why's of how they got here. GOOGLE is your best friend.

I think we all know the hows and whys (look no further than the way Henry Ford's employees were treated) but I think many think their time of usefulness have passed in most cases. How do you feel about non-labor unions, such as the Teachers Union? For all intents and purposes, it's impossible to fire a teacher due to bad performance.

[Danke]

Women also get paid .70/1.00 for every dollar for same job.

In my profession it is the opposite. Women make more.

[Feenix566]

Read up on Labor Unions, and the hows and why's of how they got here. GOOGLE is your best friend.

I would add here that Unions have the ability to get good workers for companies as a general rule. This part of the agreement companies get by entering into a union shop scenario. Unions can be a tough lot, and not everyone is qualified to enter this 'club', depending on the industry of course.

If you worked in a non-union shop, would your employer pay you as much as you're making now? In other words, is your contribution worth your pay?

If the answer is yes, then you don't need a union.

If the answer is no, then that's why unions are damaging to the economy.

[DeadheadForPaul]

http://www.mises.org

You need to go there and read up. Naturally, you would be free to join a union in a free market but there would be no point to a cartel.

You need a hard dose of reality, friend.

The real world isn't reflected in the philosophical writings of old white men who are locked away in their private studies

[JK/SEA]

I think we all know the hows and whys (look no further than the way Henry Ford's employees were treated) but I think many think their time of usefulness have passed in most cases. How do you feel about non-labor unions, such as the Teachers Union? For all intents and purposes, it's impossible to fire a teacher due to bad performance.

As to teachers, because my wife is one, i would say its all relative as how you define 'bad performance'. My wife has had meetings with parents over little johnnie and the suzies out there, and if the student isn't grasping or is disruptive or is from a crack family or abusive family or is just plain dumb, should that reflect on the teachers ability to get the student to learn. Until you have been around this school 'business' like myself, to see what REALLY goes on, then i suggest you be a little more understanding, and realize Teachers Unions are not perfect, but i can tell you they serve a very good purpose.

And while we're on Teachers. No, they don't sit around watching TV all summer. My wife takes refreser courses and plans for next year. She may get 2-3 weeks of real R&R during summer break. She graduated from a 4 year college with a 4.0, and earned her teaching degree when she was 52 years old, and is coveted by her school and admin.

[heavenlyboy34]

You need a hard dose of reality, friend.

The real world isn't reflected in the philosophical writings of old white men who are locked away in their private studies

How about young white men? young/old black men? ;)

[sdczen]

Unions, like government will eventually become bloated bureaucracies and end up destroying what they set out to protect.

The minute you see Unions setting up at Microsoft, Apple, Intel, etc... you will see the productivity come to a screeching halt. The more competitive the business sector and the less regulation from government you will see these areas flourish by leaps and bounds. Just as we've seen in the Technology arena.

[heavenlyboy34]

Unions, like government will eventually become bloated bureaucracies and end up destroying what they set out to protect.

The minute you see Unions setting up at Microsoft, Apple, Intel, etc... you will see the productivity come to a screeching halt. The more competitive the business sector and the less regulation from government you will see these areas flourish by leaps and bounds. Just as we've seen in the Technology arena.

+1 I think the big unions in the music industry is choking the life out of the real talent out there. (that, and corporatism)

[jmlfod87]

Read up on Labor Unions, and the hows and why's of how they got here. GOOGLE is your best friend.

I would add here that Unions have the ability to get good workers for companies as a general rule. This part of the agreement companies get by entering into a union shop scenario. Unions can be a tough lot, and not everyone is qualified to enter this 'club', depending on the industry of course.


Sometimes companies dont want good workers, they want cheap workers, and unions prevent companies from making those voluntary acquistions.

Unions use violence and coercion to achieve their ends and so long as they do they are not welcome in a libertarian society.

I will point you in the direction others already have : http://www.mises.org . Visit that site and read Rothbard's "For A New Liberty" and you will quickly find that you are the one who is ill-read.

[danberkeley]

I think we all know the hows and whys (look no further than the way Henry Ford's employees were treated) but I think many think their time of usefulness have passed in most cases. How do you feel about non-labor unions, such as the Teachers Union? For all intents and purposes, it's impossible to fire a teacher due to bad performance.

Ford instituted an 8-hour work day and paid his emplyees higher wages than his competitors. He also lowered the price of his automobiles so his employees could afford them.

[JK/SEA]

''Unions, like government will eventually become bloated bureaucracies and end up destroying what they set out to protect.

The minute you see Unions setting up at Microsoft, Apple, Intel, etc... you will see the productivity come to a screeching halt. The more competitive the business sector and the less regulation from government you will see these areas flourish by leaps and bounds. Just as we've seen in the Technology arena''












Could be.

How much does Microsoft pay someone to stand by a conveyor for 8 hours to shove hard drives into boxes? is this type of job considered a skill? or because its so tedious and boring the only way to get people interested in doing it is to make the pay attractive enough for someone to do it? or..is the attitude of the company to just keep the pay low and suffer a high worker turnover rate? usually company's have to pay a drug tester to have an applicant tested, if you have a high turnover because people decide they don't want a low paying grueling job, the cost of not having a union may over shadow a place that won't have a union.

Just an example.

[danberkeley]

...
How much does Microsoft pay someone to stand by a conveyor for 8 hours to shove hard drives into boxes? is this type of job considered a skill? or because its so tedious and boring the only way to get people interested in doing it is to make the pay attractive enough for someone to do it? ...

Microsoft doesnt make computers, it makes software. Fail.

[JK/SEA]

Microsoft doesnt make computers, it makes software. Fail.

Whatever.

Change hard drive to buggy whips then.

Can you answer the question or not?

[danberkeley]

Whatever.

Change hard drive to buggy whips then.

Btw, the buggy whip industry is still awating its bailout. :D

[sdczen]

Could be.

How much does Microsoft pay someone to stand by a conveyor for 8 hours to shove hard drives into boxes? is this type of job considered a skill? or because its so tedious and boring the only way to get people interested in doing it is to make the pay attractive enough for someone to do it? or..is the attitude of the company to just keep the pay low and suffer a high worker turnover rate? usually company's have to pay a drug tester to have an applicant tested, if you have a high turnover because people decide they don't want a low paying grueling job, the cost of not having a union may over shadow a place that won't have a union.

Just an example.

Low paying jobs like sorting boxes or packing boxes are never meant to be "long term" employment areas. All businesses understand this. They also understand the higher turnover rate involved. Jobs like these are not careers, nor are they hard to hire for. If you unionized jobs like this, then your computers would cost you exponentially more than you are paying today.

One of my first jobs was picking peas in a field for $2.00 a bushel. It was back breaking, long and tedious. However, I did it every day for my measly wage. At the end of the day, I would always try to figure out how I could get a better job, more education and more money.

[jmlfod87]

''Unions, like government will eventually become bloated bureaucracies and end up destroying what they set out to protect.

The minute you see Unions setting up at Microsoft, Apple, Intel, etc... you will see the productivity come to a screeching halt. The more competitive the business sector and the less regulation from government you will see these areas flourish by leaps and bounds. Just as we've seen in the Technology arena''












Could be.

How much does Microsoft pay someone to stand by a conveyor for 8 hours to shove hard drives into boxes? is this type of job considered a skill? or because its so tedious and boring the only way to get people interested in doing it is to make the pay attractive enough for someone to do it? or..is the attitude of the company to just keep the pay low and suffer a high worker turnover rate? usually company's have to pay a drug tester to have an applicant tested, if you have a high turnover because people decide they don't want a low paying grueling job, the cost of not having a union may over shadow a place that won't have a union.

Just an example.


If you have a high turnover rate that is dimisnishing productivity it would obviously be in the employer's interest to raise wages.

The market is driven by profit, if an employer is unhappy with his profit he will take the necessary steps to increase it. If a worker is unhappy with his wage he will take the necessary steps to increase it. This is how the market works. Its simple really. Coercive unions are completely unnecessary and infact counterproductive to a prosperous society.

[AutoDas]

You need a hard dose of reality, friend.

The real world isn't reflected in the philosophical writings of old white men who are locked away in their private studies

ummm okay? what does this have to do with unions?

[Elwar]

When it comes down to it, you could probably match the statistics of these groups to the amount of people going into the fields that pay more.

Women make up only 30% of Computer Science degrees, blacks around 12%. You would probably see similar examples in many of the high paying degree programs.

The lower paying degrees such as liberal arts, humanities, english, early childhood development more than likely have a higher amount of female graduates.

It's a matter of choice. Should we start forcing women and blacks to get degrees in professions that they don't like? Perhaps a law? Or some sort of affirmative action?

[Brian4Liberty]

Look at it this way...why aren't companies just hiring a bunch people from groups that don't get paid as much and paying them low wages? They would make out well against their competitors because they don't have to spend as much on their employees. When their competitors find out about this there would be a mad scramble to also hire these low paid groups as well.


LOL! You just described the IT industry perfectly. The mad rush and propaganda campaign for H1B and L1 visas. It didn't work out well for them though, as they only cared about price, and not quality/productivity. Penny wise, pound foolish.

[M House]

Um actually I think the claim is false there's actually some black guy who wrote a book about it. I'll have to find his name.

[misterx]

Maybe they earn less because they produce less results. Who is more valuable to your company, the affirmative action candidate, or the one who actually had to earn his degree without help? I don't believe that blacks are as competent in the sciences as whites/asians, any more than I can believe that whites/asians are as skilled in basketball as blacks. Sure there is the occasional Larry Bird, but they're just outliers to the general trend. jmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjmjm

[misterx]

Maybe they earn less because they produce less results. Who is more valuable to your company, the affirmative action candidate, or the one who actually had to earn his degree without help? I don't believe that blacks are as competent in the sciences as whites/asians, any more than I can believe that whites/asians are as skilled in basketball as blacks. Sure there is the occasional Larry Bird, but they're just outliers to the general trend.

[Elwar]

Maybe they earn less because they produce less results. Who is more valuable to your company, the affirmative action candidate, or the one who actually had to earn his degree without help? I don't believe that blacks are as competent in the sciences as whites/asians, any more than I can believe that whites/asians are as skilled in basketball as blacks. Sure there is the occasional Larry Bird, but they're just outliers to the general trend.

As they say on http://theobamaforum.com

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/5/5d/Thatsracist.gif

[Kraig]

I get paid based on a combination of what I demand, my skills at negotiation (writing a good resume, dressing well, talking well, etc. all become part of this), and my skills that relate to the job. When I am in an interview or being given a job offer my potential employer is going to try to pay me the lowest he can get away with and still keep me happy and on the job, no different than me trying to get the most I can get away with.

If you think it's based on anything else, especially that there is ever going to be any "good will" to pay you what you "deserve" then you are fooling yourself. Yes there are still racists and all sorts of other idiots out there, that's when you go work somewhere else.

I had one employer tell me I couldn't work at X clients because they preferred to have Mexicans working in their offices. I asked him why he didn't tell them that my skills and quality of work would be more than enough to make them happy and he said he would rather not bother with it and simply give them what they want. I don't work for him anymore and his success as a business does in fact reflect his weak mindedness. It's never something to cry about, just move on to something better.

[JeNNiF00F00]

I remember one lawfirm I worked at where there was a guy managing the mailroom for like 9 dollars an hour..not so smart. Just stupid. There was a girl working UNDER him and she was making like 12 an hour. Smart and a hard worker but more efficient than the dumb guy. Both individuals were minorities. I think that it all depends on how well you can negotiate when you get the job, and how hard you push for a raise while you are working. Its all about networking. I think that it could have been that way like 30 years ago but things have changed.