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Uncle Emanuel Watkins
01-12-2009, 10:51 AM
Problems exist in the U.S. automobile industry because it has split up both the engineering and machining of individual parts. As the building aspect of the industry, the machining of the individual parts to be assembled, has been prostituted out as contract jobs, the designing aspect of it, the engineering of the individual parts, has been eroded away by the limited abilities of those contract machinists employed.
One solution would be to assume that the world already has more cars than it will ever need. As more baby boomers pass away in the future, the focus of the industry should turn its attention from building new cars to rebuilding or refurbishing old ones. This change in philosophy would decentralize the auto industry by making it necessary to have assembly plants in every major metropolitan area. It would also centralize the engineering and machining aspects of building a car together as it would be necessary for them to refocus their attention from that of building a whole new concept of a vehicle to that of building new concepts in the refurbishment of the seperate parts of an upgraded vehicle.
As engineering and machining would work together in remanufacturing damaged parts with better ones, the company could also offer to add after-market parts to the new vehicle instead. This would bring in competition.
As is often the case, after-market parts are as much as half the cost of the original parts while offering superior performance.
Of course, new cars would still be built on a limited basis as some people could still afford them.

Some benefits of this change in philosophy?
1) Refurbishing existing vehicles back into new ones would cause less pollution.
2) Refurbishment of existing vehicles would decentralize the process of assembling to each metropolitan area.
3) The management of the auto industry would be more decentralized on the regional level to handle the deassembling and reassembling processes necessary to refurbish a vehicle.
4) Rather than centralize marketing and assembling in one place, it would centralize the engineering and machining of refurbished vehicles into one place.

M House
01-12-2009, 10:57 AM
The automotive industry could make a fortune repairing, re-engining, and rebuilding cars. They could also rethink many of the ideas they use in designing new cars and being flexible about their options. You do not want 4 grades of trim on one car, you want drive-train options and the ability to save money not getting accessories you don't need in a package you actually want.

heavenlyboy34
01-12-2009, 10:57 AM
It would be nice if car recycling could be more profitable. There are a couple places in Phoenix that take old cars and refurbish them, but they don't get much publicity and many are non-profit outfits.

Aratus
01-12-2009, 11:04 AM
reduce the weight to 1/4 or 1/2 --- do things most hybrid,
and then RECYCLE any and all batteries... we become
less oil obssessed... our formula is simple... and succinct

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 11:09 AM
If only they didn't rust...

I am committed to renewing mine for as long as possible. The new regulations are out of hand. Air freaking bags. Nothing like a 'safety feature' that stands a better chance of killing you than the accident does. Talk about a cure worse than the disease. If we spent half of what we spend on heavy, fuel-robbing safety widgets on driver education instead, we'd save far more lives.

If only there were no such thing as metal fatigue. We could all be driving fast, sweet-handling, roomy, economical, safe (as in, it has not air bags but 'crumple zones') Dodge Darts again.

The government isn't content to help destroy the automobile industry. They want to destroy the automobile.

M House
01-12-2009, 11:13 AM
They shouldn't rust the most available metals on earth are going to be Steel, Aluminum, and Titanium. Steel is by far the cheapest it can be alloyed to be very rust resistant or if plated corrected shouldn't care too much about rust either. Aluminum once again can very immune to corrosion and Titanium jeez if they used that stuff to bolt your car it'd be around for awhile. Why people use things like Zinc plated screws in construction is beyond me.

Aratus
01-12-2009, 11:16 AM
chrystler and GM are top-heavy with the pensions of the workers who let the depression era workers retire with an ease and grace. social security
is a ponzi swindle extrodinaire. the frost and rust belt was very george meany and pro-union, once. the new south has foreign owners
and less of an overhead. we are damned if we do or damned if we don't. we either let obama fecklessly go into a keynesian mode or we do
a cal coolidge and grover cleveland judgement call...

M House
01-12-2009, 11:18 AM
We don't need hybrids the United States is a world leader in turbomachinery. Thus turbo-diesels, gas turbines, and more efficient gasoline powered, combo turbo combustion engine arrangements are available here now.

roho76
01-12-2009, 11:20 AM
I had an idea to make a car company that had multiple options for cars. If you had a few different frames and bolt on body panels as well as different drive train options you could design your car online using the available parts catalog they could get everything together for you. Then you just take your car in one day they swap out everything you ordered and the next you have your new car with all the accessories you wanted and your old stuff could be recycled for new customers. you could take a sedan and have it turned into a sports car and it would look very different. Yet you still have the same frame same engine same front axle. You get the point. This could be done over and over again using the same parts.

M House
01-12-2009, 11:23 AM
Automobile manufacturers already do this in their common platforms only they somehow think making all these decisions for you makes you wanna buy their car.

Aratus
01-12-2009, 11:25 AM
worse, thats what henry ford once basically did! when trying to edge into the lincoln town car market...

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 11:26 AM
We don't need hybrids the United States is a world leader in turbomachinery. Thus turbo-diesels, gas turbines, and more efficient gasoline powered, combo turbo combustion engine arrangements are available here now.

Have been for years. The reason they haven't gotten anywhere is because power is a damned inefficient substitute for torque. All the horsepower in the world won't help you one bit if you can't transition the wheels from 'still' to 'rolling'.

Interesting you should mention hybrids. That technology is the one that promises to make the long-awaited turbine car a reality. A generator and wheel motors are an excellent way to convert a turbine's plentiful power into the torque you need to lug your family up a hill from a standstill.

For those who don't know, torque is force and power is a measurement of how much force you can get per second. A huge Cummins Diesel has torque enough to yank a stump out of the ground, but no power. An Offenheimer Indy engine has enough power to rocket a race car from thirty to two hundred in seconds, but often not enough torque for the car to climb the ramp into it's own trailer.

roho76
01-12-2009, 11:30 AM
Automobile manufacturers already do this in their common platforms only they somehow think making all these decisions for you makes you wanna buy their car.

Well I was thinking extremely custom. Even giving them the option to design there own body panels if they would like and they can use the software as long as the important area are left alone(bolt holes wheel wells) stuff like that. GM gives you the option of a bumper for $700 or no bumper. That is not a choice I will except. But you can not take your car back to GM and have them install new interior or new custom body panels or a new drive train. I'm talking custom reusable cars ans parts. So essentially you could use the same frame for 20 years but yet you would have a new looking car every year and all you old parts would be reused or recycled. Kinda like grinding down fiberglass panels and using it to make new fiberglass panels. I don't think anybody does that.

M House
01-12-2009, 11:32 AM
Technically that arrangement isn't a hybrid it's a fairly standard turbo-electric or diesel-electric I think your talking about. I thought for awhile you could install the 400hz alternator off of a jet engine to power a car in either a diesel-electric or turbo-electric arrangement. A unique variable frequency circuit as well as three phase power could be implemented. Each wheel would have a small torque motor and you'd have some power.

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 11:33 AM
Well I was thinking extremely custom. Even giving them the option to design there own body panels if they would like and they can use the software as long as the important area are left alone(bolt holes wheel wells) stuff like that. GM gives you the option of a bumper for $700 or no bumper. That is not a choice I will except. But you can not take your car back to GM and have them install new interior or new custom body panels or a new drive train. I'm talking custom reusable cars ans parts. So essentially you could use the same frame for 20 years but yet you would have a new looking car every year and all you old parts would be reused or recycled. Kinda like grinding down fiberglass panels and using it to make new fiberglass panels. I don't think anybody does that.

And given the state of technology, this would not only be easier than you think, but there would be pretty good access to the mechanicals that need refurbished while the thing's naked.

But in order to take advantage, the mechanicals must be well-maintained! Otherwise, you'll be putting a new coat of paint on junk.

smithtg
01-12-2009, 11:37 AM
[QUOTE=acptulsa;1906197]If only they didn't rust...

IQUOTE]


when was the last time you saw a "rust bucket" on the highway? I mean cars used to rust in 5 years or less... with new coating methods etc the body panels hardly ever rust. Its the cheap underbody components that rust wear out, but lucky they are cheap and can be replaced...

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 11:39 AM
Technically that arrangement isn't a hybrid it's a fairly standard turbo-electric or diesel-electric I think your talking about. I thought for awhile you could install the 400hz alternator off of a jet engine to power a car in either a diesel-electric or turbo-electric arrangement. A unique variable frequency circuit as well as three phase power could be implemented. Each wheel would have a small torque motor and you'd have some power.

Technically and otherwise, you're right. But if you add a few batteries, you have a hybrid. That's why I say hybrid technology (which is very, very similar) being developed makes this easier.

A lighter way to capture braking energy from wheel motors-tuned-generators is to spin up a flywheel. They've played with that a long time, but a good flywheel that size is hard to make tough enough to withstand its own centrifugal force--and very dangerous when it comes apart.

Recapturing and reusing braking energy is a good thing--a very good thing. Electric railroads have been doing it for over a century. That said, you're right--there's no necessity for doing that to get a turbine-electric drive. It's just that the electric drive is the very thing that makes a hybrid's efficiency possible, so once you've gone that far what's a chip and a few batteries?

roho76
01-12-2009, 11:40 AM
And given the state of technology, this would not only be easier than you think, but there would be pretty good access to the mechanicals that need refurbished while the thing's naked.

But in order to take advantage, the mechanicals must be well-maintained! Otherwise, you'll be putting a new coat of paint on junk.

Well if they don't take care of their mechanicals then they will have to come back and get new ones and I just happen to be in that business.

M House
01-12-2009, 11:44 AM
Batteries are heavy and drain on that type of arrangement. Turbo-electric and Diesel-electric are very efficient arrangements. They use them in power plants, locomotives, etc. You'd only want a very small pack or none at all to pretty much get things moving if you needed too.

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 11:45 AM
when was the last time you saw a "rust bucket" on the highway? I mean cars used to rust in 5 years or less... with new coating methods etc the body panels hardly ever rust. Its the cheap underbody components that rust wear out, but lucky they are cheap and can be replaced...

U.S. cars used to be grossly overengineered. Nowadays rust will more likely cause you to sell your car for scrap because the doors don't close properly any more and you're wondering if it'll buckle in the middle and collapse than eat cancer holes through the external bodywork. And if it's a Saturn, for example, this is guaranteed.

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Batteries are heavy and drain on that type of arrangement. Turbo-electric and Diesel-electric are very efficient arrangements. They use them in power plants, locomotives, etc. You'd only want a very small pack or none at all to pretty much get things moving if you needed too.

You're right. It isn't like it's a new idea. It's mainly that the lead-acid battery would pretty much eat up the gains in efficiency by being heavy as hell (and expensive to periodically replace) that prevented 'regenerative braking' from entering the public's vocabulary sooner.

Now that we can do the other things with less weight, the battery is less likely to spoil the party.

roho76
01-12-2009, 11:49 AM
Kinda like a kit car. Some one said to me once when I told them of the idea, "what about safety"? Well with the modular aspects of these vehicles you could put a roll cage in every one which would also act as the frame that the panels bolted to. So it would most likely be the safest car on the road outside of a Jeep or a Hummer.

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 11:51 AM
Kinda like a kit car. Some one said to me once when I told them of the idea, "what about safety"? Well with the modular aspects of these vehicles you could put a roll cage in every one which would also act as the frame that the panels bolted to. So it would most likely be the safest car on the road outside of a Jeep or a Hummer.

Check out how Saturns are made. Or better yet, check into the Testarossa-imitation bodies for Fieros. It's out there.

Aratus
01-12-2009, 11:51 AM
from edison onwards, yes... the structural design, heft and weight of the batteries... yes...

roho76
01-12-2009, 11:58 AM
Check out how Saturns are made. Or better yet, check into the Testarossa-imitation bodies for Fieros. It's out there.

Transformer cars? Think I'll get sued?

Testarossiero's. Ha! That sounds like a burrito.

M House
01-12-2009, 12:08 PM
There's new capacitor designs I forgot to mention that now are pretty mech designed to operate as a cap and battery type device in a circuit. They've taken off alot recently and were originally developed by GE. I'm pretty sure those could do away with alot of these battery implementations.

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 12:26 PM
I think the main obstacle is the hand-crafted aspect of an automotive restoration. Most cars are built on assembly lines. The few that aren't I, for one, can't afford--think Rolls Royce.

So is a disassembly line possible? In theory, sure. But after a quarter of a million miles, cars develop 'personality'. An assembly line involves taking a pile of clean, new, identical parts and putting them together. A little damage, a slightly different replacement part, or a minor modification are all things a restoration craftsman can and does deal with daily, but they'd send a disassembly robot screaming for its mommy.

M House
01-12-2009, 12:34 PM
Sorta but you just kinda tell the robots what to do. If companies want to just use their hardware to do a run-way into the ground assembly line that's fine. But the robots can actually do whatever the operators feel like bothering to tell them to. In the interest of using stupid new hype words for an alternative process why not have a "open assembly line" aka where you pick and add different pieces along on the process. They can also bother to be alittle more capable about supplying the different parts you might need to later repair the vehicle. Spare frames doors, suspension parts doesn't seem so hard to get around to when you actually realize your strapped for cash and need to produce something.

Theocrat
01-12-2009, 12:34 PM
Talk about "rethinking the automobile!" Check this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqA_yTkIEHE) out.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
01-12-2009, 12:37 PM
The automotive industry could make a fortune repairing, re-engining, and rebuilding cars. They could also rethink many of the ideas they use in designing new cars and being flexible about their options. You do not want 4 grades of trim on one car, you want drive-train options and the ability to save money not getting accessories you don't need in a package you actually want.

Every city has huge manufacturing facilities that are vacant. Just use these plants to refurbish every kind of car regardless. Put the refurbished Ford name on it if that is who owns the manufacturing facility. Rather than engineer and machine branded cars, just reengineer and remachine, refurfish that is, the existing cars better.
Example: Let's say that I purchase an old 92 Dodge Caravan. These were actually well built cars for their time. I will have a choice where to take it for refurbishment. I might choose the Ford, the GMC or the Chrysler refurbishment plant in my metropolitan area. When the car is finished, it won't be "brand" new but "refurbished" new.

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 12:53 PM
Sorta but you just kinda tell the robots what to do.

Sure. But the more you have to baby-sit the robot, the more your cars cost. And that's just part of it. Simply put, after a quarter million miles two cars that were identical down to the color when they were cranked off the assembly line will no longer be identical. Now, you can try to design robots and software and your assembly line to deal with every possible little difference, but unless you're omniscient you'll fail. And that means a 'disassembly line' will be fraught with slowdowns as these veterans of the American road demand some special attention here and there.

Or you can pay shop rates. Not cheap.

M House
01-12-2009, 01:08 PM
Well if it's union labor what's that gonna be 200 hundred extra bucks to press a button and check a part? Seems like someone might wanna give alittle here.

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 01:19 PM
Well if it's union labor what's that gonna be 200 hundred extra bucks to press a button and check a part? Seems like someone might wanna give alittle here.

Well, the question was, why isn't this done? And I'm pretty sure we've covered it. How to make it work is another subject.

That said, I'd be all for it. An old car has many charms, in spite of the fact that technology has unquestionably advanced--and the reason that is doesn't have much of anything to do with the gas crunch. It's all on the head of the government.

I had a 1968 Dodge Coronet with four doors, two comfortable bench seats, a trunk that could swallow over seventeen large paper grocery bags standing up, air conditioning and a curb weight of under 3500 pounds. Cramped as these modern minivans are, almost all of them weigh more than that--some by a wide margin. With the modern engineering, plastics and alloys, how can this be so? Air bags, side door guard beams, weird rollover protection specs (the Coronets were very safe in rollovers, or at least all the stuntmen thought so, but still wouldn't pass modern standards because those are more weird than protective), bumpers that remain undamaged when you go around smashing into light poles at jogging speed...

Yeah, I'd sooner pay someone to restore--with a few select upgrades--a Coronet or Belvedere than buy a new car. Eight days a week, if I could afford it. But this isn't a burning desire to recycle. This is a burning desire to get more room with equal efficiency. Besides, she handled as well as my Charger did... :D

acptulsa
12-03-2014, 08:36 AM
Crumple zones don't explode and spray your face with shrapnel--and kill children in the front seat even when they work right--the way airbags do

We need to create a new website: cureworsethanthedisease.gov. Can you get a .gov web address if you aren't government?

tod evans
12-03-2014, 08:43 AM
I think the main obstacle is the hand-crafted aspect of an automotive restoration. Most cars are built on assembly lines. The few that aren't I, for one, can't afford--think Rolls Royce.

So is a disassembly line possible? In theory, sure. But after a quarter of a million miles, cars develop 'personality'. An assembly line involves taking a pile of clean, new, identical parts and putting them together. A little damage, a slightly different replacement part, or a minor modification are all things a restoration craftsman can and does deal with daily, but they'd send a disassembly robot screaming for its mommy.

3460


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_4GZDN6eyU

acptulsa
12-03-2014, 08:50 AM
3460


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_4GZDN6eyU

I have come up with a design for a three-wheeler so much prettier than that. Got a few million bucks? Let's go into business.

Back then, three wheelers were a way to minimize weight and rolling resistance. Today, using three wheels is a way to build a car that the federal government considers a motorcycle. Or, to put it another way, to build an automobile instead of an ugly, overweight, identical, government-designed, cookie-cutter, explosive-bag-infested rolling rubber room.

Such an effort would not merely be a money-maker, and a way to seriously improve both safety (for those who learn to drive well enough to use a light, nimble car to avoid accidents) and efficiency, but a steel-and-chrome object lesson in how the government ruins everything.

tod evans
12-03-2014, 08:54 AM
Sorry man I don't have a few million bucks lying around....

However........I do have a fairly substantial woodshop that could readily duplicate parts such as the Morgan uses...

acptulsa
12-03-2014, 09:02 AM
Sorry man I don't have a few million bucks lying around....

However........I do have a fairly substantial woodshop that could readily duplicate parts such as the Morgan uses...

That's a temptation. It doesn't rust, and pound for pound, plywood is stronger than many formulations of steel.

Unfortunately, the stuff does rot, does fatigue, and isn't as easy to form to fit. Besides, it also doesn't weld, and I don't know if people are ready for the return of carriage bolts.

jbauer
12-03-2014, 09:44 AM
[QUOTE=acptulsa;1906197]If only they didn't rust...

IQUOTE]


when was the last time you saw a "rust bucket" on the highway? I mean cars used to rust in 5 years or less... with new coating methods etc the body panels hardly ever rust. Its the cheap underbody components that rust wear out, but lucky they are cheap and can be replaced...

I take it you're not from the North?

acptulsa
12-03-2014, 09:48 AM
I take it you're not from the North?

I don't know where he's from. But if he thinks all those 'underbody components' are cheap, easy to replace, and/or that the car can do without them without buckling in the middle and collapsing, he's pretty silly.

jbauer
12-03-2014, 09:56 AM
I don't know where he's from. But if he thinks all those 'underbody components' are cheap, easy to replace, and/or that the car can do without them without buckling in the middle and collapsing, he's pretty silly.

I'm from the North originally and now live in the south so I've seen them both ways. Cars don't rust out in the South. You can duct-tape them together and they keep going. Up North 10 yrs max before there's nothing left. Struts, exhaust, u-joints, axles. Absolutely nothing left. In fact just driving one winter in the North and bringing a vehicle South for the rest of its life will still result in rust. I took a trailer up to MN one Christmas. Got it home. Washed it 5x front to back, back to front. Over, under again and again with soap and scrubbing anything I could think of. Still rusted all to hell after maybe 400 miles round trip of being in the land of salt.

The reason this refurbish idea wont work is its not cost effective. If it was cheaper to refurbish a car we'd be doing it already. As it stands its much cheaper to build a car on an assembly line and trade them in every couple 100k miles.

moostraks
12-03-2014, 09:57 AM
Well, the question was, why isn't this done? And I'm pretty sure we've covered it. How to make it work is another subject.

That said, I'd be all for it. An old car has many charms, in spite of the fact that technology has unquestionably advanced--and the reason that is doesn't have much of anything to do with the gas crunch. It's all on the head of the government.

I had a 1968 Dodge Coronet with four doors, two comfortable bench seats, a trunk that could swallow over seventeen large paper grocery bags standing up, air conditioning and a curb weight of under 3500 pounds. Cramped as these modern minivans are, almost all of them weigh more than that--some by a wide margin. With the modern engineering, plastics and alloys, how can this be so? Air bags, side door guard beams, weird rollover protection specs (the Coronets were very safe in rollovers, or at least all the stuntmen thought so, but still wouldn't pass modern standards because those are more weird than protective), bumpers that remain undamaged when you go around smashing into light poles at jogging speed...

Yeah, I'd sooner pay someone to restore--with a few select upgrades--a Coronet or Belvedere than buy a new car. Eight days a week, if I could afford it. But this isn't a burning desire to recycle. This is a burning desire to get more room with equal efficiency. Besides, she handled as well as my Charger did... :D

There was always the satisfying thump when you closed your door on those big, old cars as well. I miss that sound. Ah, one day, a girl can dream...

Current ride is a 15 passenger Chevy. Why is it there is nowhere to put groceries but in the seats? I have a van big enough to haul the family yet cannot take anyone shopping with me.

moostraks
12-03-2014, 10:00 AM
I'm from the North originally and now live in the south so I've seen them both ways. Cars don't rust out in the South. You can duct-tape them together and they keep going. Up North 10 yrs max before there's nothing left. Struts, exhaust, u-joints, axles. Absolutely nothing left. In fact just driving one winter in the North and bringing a vehicle South for the rest of its life will still result in rust. I took a trailer up to MN one Christmas. Got it home. Washed it 5x front to back, back to front. Over, under again and again with soap and scrubbing anything I could think of. Still rusted all to hell after maybe 400 miles round trip of being in the land of salt.

The reason this refurbish idea wont work is its not cost effective. If it was cheaper to refurbish a car we'd be doing it already. As it stands its much cheaper to build a car on an assembly line and trade them in every couple 100k miles.

Salt went through the roof this year. The trick they are trying to stretch it in our county is beet juice. Wonder how that will effect the rust? Took me almost 7 years in Ohio and I have the first visible signs of cancer on my middle door panel bottoms. So sad...

pcosmar
12-03-2014, 10:54 AM
In the north they rust from the bottom up. In the south (coastal) they rust from the top down..

It is not just salt,, it is salts.. They use several chemicals up here to melt ice at varying temps.

Add to that,, electrolysis.. Some folks like to put dissimilar metals together . (Zinc coatings)

And don't even get me started on the "quality" of steel these days. a grade8 bolt from 50 years ago is vastly superior to any you will find today.
Same with thin body skins.

acptulsa
07-23-2023, 02:32 PM
..

acptulsa
07-23-2023, 02:33 PM
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Auto-Production-Trends_05.jpg



SOURCE:
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/us-vehicle-production-shift/

One stated reason for the regulations was fuel efficiency. Forcing everyone who needed to seat six into trucks left us burning more fuel, however. Another was safety. But rollover accidents are up thanks to the influx of trucklets and four wheel drive, and the death rate per mile driven has basically stopped improving (it had improved noticeably nearly every year since cars went into production).

My current vehicle is the first I've owned made in this millenium. It constantly amazes me that the A-pillars (call it the windshield frame) are thick enough to hide a Peterbilt, and I can't raise the rear view so it won't hide entire vehicles from me at intersections. I'm convinced these so-called safety regs are all designed to save lives, yes, but not by preventing accidents. They seem to be designed to make collisions more common.

The first step in rethinking the automobile must be rethinking government's role in their design, or things will only get worse.

acptulsa
12-02-2023, 10:34 AM
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https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/scariest-pumpkins-ever-car-warning-lights-check-engine.jpg

https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/here-we-can-see-the-miracle-of-birth-in-the-wild-toy-car.jpg