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Paulitical Correctness
01-12-2009, 01:57 AM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?

Conza88
01-12-2009, 02:31 AM
I think you have too high expectations... in your ability to persuade people, aka their ability to accept reason.

I kind of have the same minimal problem - too high expectations. I am just unsure atm how to lower them, to what would be Ron Pauls 'standards' or 'expectations'. He is so calm and patient... and I remember him being asked 'How can he deal with it.. being in Congress etc' and he outlined he is very low expectations.

I think experience will eventually curb my heatedness...

I'd probably recommend - How I found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne for your relationship issues. And everything in general. :)

Gosmokesome
01-12-2009, 04:25 AM
Move to New Hampshire?

1000-points-of-fright
01-12-2009, 05:50 AM
Have you considered that maybe Libertarianism has nothing to do with it and that you're just an asshole?

Danke
01-12-2009, 06:09 AM
Have you considered that maybe Libertarianism has nothing to do with it and that you're just an asshole?

http://www.cyberspacei.com/englishwiz/library/friends/images/carnegie.jpg

Conza88
01-12-2009, 06:23 AM
http://www.cyberspacei.com/englishwiz/library/friends/images/carnegie.jpg

lmao :D

yongrel
01-12-2009, 06:30 AM
Or maybe you're creating a false dichotomy to make yourself feel better. "People don't like me for what I believe" is much kinder to the ego than "people don't like me for what I do."

There are plenty of people on this forum, and in this world, with ideologies and beliefs that challenge the mainstream, and more than a few of them are probably more radical and more diehard than you, and they don't seem to have any issues with maintaining personal relationships.

Maybe instead of taking the cop out that says "I have no control over my relationships with people because they don't agree with what I believe" you can take a moment to pause and reflect on what you did to make those opinions so offensive to them.

I speak from personal experience when I say that simply believing that the Federal Reserve is wrong, the media lies, and government is too big is not going to end relationships. Calling people sheeple on the other hand...

Paulitical Correctness
01-12-2009, 07:03 AM
Have you considered that maybe Libertarianism has nothing to do with it and that you're just an asshole?

No no, it's a combination of both - definitely.

I am indeed a cynical bastard, but being a cynical bastard and holding a rare philosophy is a dangerous combination I suppose.

@ yongrel, no...I agree, it's not what I believe, it is what I do, but my actions are fueled by my beliefs.

I have a severe case of the can't-hold-my-tonguesies. I've yet to find a balance between civility and sanity. If I don't speak out when I disagree, it pretty much evolves into anger and festers.

Maybe I've just got anger issues. :confused:

Anyway, thanks guys.

Paulitical Correctness
01-12-2009, 07:07 AM
I think you have too high expectations... in your ability to persuade people, aka their ability to accept reason.

I kind of have the same minimal problem - too high expectations. I am just unsure atm how to lower them, to what would be Ron Pauls 'standards' or 'expectations'. He is so calm and patient... and I remember him being asked 'How can he deal with it.. being in Congress etc' and he outlined he is very low expectations.

I think experience will eventually curb my heatedness...

I'd probably recommend - How I found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne for your relationship issues. And everything in general. :)

Thanks, Conza. I'll check that book out as soon as I finish the ones I got for Christmas. :p

I agree about experience being the key to patience, I'll learn eventually as well.

sevin
01-12-2009, 08:34 AM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?

Have you ever spent an entire day with people without mentioning politics? It's possible.

Elwar
01-12-2009, 08:34 AM
As a libertarian you should be able to find common ground with both liberals and conservatives.
With conservatives it's easy because you just talk about money. With liberals you just talk about being against the war and how much Bush sucks.
When the issue of the disagreement comes, just do the generalized "ya...government sucks". And agree to disagree on the specifics.

My wife thinks I'm a radical but she doesn't care so much about politics so she lets me do the heavy thinking when it comes to politics. She was going to vote for McCain because she hated Obama so much (mainly because of his name Barack Hussein Obama) but I convinced her to write in Ron Paul (even then, I would've been fine with her voting for McCain if she wanted to). She really didn't care anyway because she knows our votes don't really count.

You need to choose your battles. Life is short.

Pennsylvania
01-12-2009, 08:52 AM
PC, I identify with your situation. I am the kind of person that needs constant mental stimulation and I'm always chewing on something, trying to answer one tough internal question or another, so when I talk to other people, those are the things I want to talk about, not the weather, not sports, not the family dog, and it bores me to no end when people want to talk about everyday things. But what can you do? I've found that poker and beer help me socialize a lot better.

wizardwatson
01-12-2009, 08:53 AM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?

Your beliefs are irrelevant. Use whatever strategy you can to win the hearts and minds of your friends and family. It doesn't matter what they believe you are, or think you are. You aren't anything. You're a soldier for liberty. If they think you are a socialist great. As long as you don't violate the non-aggression axiom it's probably better that you mix in with them as much as possible.

Don't get trapped inside this revolutionary/anarchist stereotype.

And above all...


But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them.

...stop doing this!

Why emphasize the differences you have with your loved ones? Instead find the common ground you share in your convictions and emphasize the ways in which the State and other forces work against the both of you.

And probably it sounds like you should read that book too. :D

Original_Intent
01-12-2009, 09:23 AM
I am very lucky in that I have a wife who, although she doesn't dig for things as much as I do, she is philosophically well aligned with me. And she is a good sounding board for if I am wandering off the "reality reservation" into crazy conspiracy land.

As far as friends, I have very few, but they are precious like gold due to their scarcity. I know my best friend probably thinks that I am a complete nut job as far as politics goes (He has been Hannitized), so we just don't talk much about anything important. Interestingly, his younger brother and I are becoming good friends because he caught the Ron Paul bug, and he seems pretty hungry for the truth - definitely not the type to stick his head in the sand!

But yeah it is pretty lonely, but you don't have to be completely alone. I guess I am patient with people because I look at my own journey, I didn't get where I am over night, and I have a pretty open mind. So I don't get too angry with "the masses" who have been brainwashed (most of the time). When you do find someone with a little interest, just be a resource to them, don't smother them or scare the crap out of them with too much info too fast. People don't like being afraid (even if they should be).

LibertyEagle
01-12-2009, 09:27 AM
When you do find someone with a little interest, just be a resource to them, don't smother them or scare the crap out of them with too much info too fast. People don't like being afraid (even if they should be).

LOL.

Exactly!!! That's the crux of it and it is very hard not to do. :D

canadian4ronpaul
01-12-2009, 09:33 AM
I have had this same problem in some respect. I got to university and Im probably the only person on campus who thinks that capitalism is a good thing and government is a bad thing. But I have still made tons of friends and continue to do so almost everyweekend. just dont make politicis so central to your life. you have your beliefs, and just keep them that way. I dont think the whole point of this freedom movement is to centre your entire life around it, but to hold those beliefs and then pursue whatever it is that you want-freely. you dont need to argue with people all the time, if you disagree, just state your beliefs and let the chips fall where they may.

Ideally, you want people to come around on their own, and come to our side of the force by their own realizations. Nobody likes being told what to believe, and yelling at people and calling them stupid etc will not achieve this goal.

Conza88
01-12-2009, 09:36 AM
You don't need to convince people there is a NWO in order to defeat them. The NWO = is tyranny.

What you need to do is convince them of Liberty, the antithesis of tyranny. It's great, because you don't need to feel like a nutjob. :)

Try to instill a profound sense of justice, or hatred of the state etc. Think of it as a long term project, and the more subtle the better.

Thus the - must see movies thread (see sig). And... buy them a book for Christmas.. birthday... whatever. You don't need to give them just that, get it on TOP of something else, make it extra if they really aren't interested it politics, or economics or anything.. give them Ron Paul's manifesto on the off chance they suddenly MIGHT.

They would have been apathetic before and suddenly, blown away by what Ron Paul has said.. worth a shot. :)

acptulsa
01-12-2009, 09:41 AM
I picked up some great friends working with my meetup group all summer. Great friends. Love 'em. If you haven't had the same experience, you didn't get enough done this last year--or so it seems to me.

liberteebell
01-12-2009, 09:42 AM
Your beliefs are irrelevant. Use whatever strategy you can to win the hearts and minds of your friends and family. It doesn't matter what they believe you are, or think you are. You aren't anything. You're a soldier for liberty. If they think you are a socialist great. As long as you don't violate the non-aggression axiom it's probably better that you mix in with them as much as possible.

Don't get trapped inside this revolutionary/anarchist stereotype.

And above all...



...stop doing this!

Why emphasize the differences you have with your loved ones? Instead find the common ground you share in your convictions and emphasize the ways in which the State and other forces work against the both of you.

And probably it sounds like you should read that book too. :D

This.

With age, I've learned much patience, and I work very hard to put it into practice. My natural instinct is to get in people's faces and scream. It is not effective and it will isolate you socially.

My boss's secretary gave me this piece of advice many moons ago and I've never forgotten it: if someone says something that upsets you or if they ask a question, take several deep breaths or count to 10 slowly before you open your mouth.

Even with that, I choose my "battles", much preferring to find common ground, ask open ended questions and listen A LOT. As I tell my son, try to be on receive every once in a while; you don't always have to be on transmit. :p

Nothing wrong with being a cynic. My photo is in the dictionary as the definition of cynical. But try to use it as humor and self-deprecation, and this sounds counter intuitive, but use your cynicism in a positive way. In fact, my teenage daughters were discussing their own cynicism last night; I apologized for making them so, but the oldest said that she's glad she's a cynic and that her friends think she's funny.

Conza88
01-12-2009, 09:44 AM
I have had this same problem in some respect. I got to university and Im probably the only person on campus who thinks that capitalism is a good thing and government is a bad thing. But I have still made tons of friends and continue to do so almost everyweekend. just dont make politicis so central to your life. you have your beliefs, and just keep them that way. I dont think the whole point of this freedom movement is to centre your entire life around it, but to hold those beliefs and then pursue whatever it is that you want-freely. you dont need to argue with people all the time, if you disagree, just state your beliefs and let the chips fall where they may.

Ideally, you want people to come around on their own, and come to our side of the force by their own realizations. Nobody likes being told what to believe, and yelling at people and calling them stupid etc will not achieve this goal.

A real good method is to be state you are "open to persuasion" which you will naturally be, except you obviously hold the logical position.

Instead of trying to convince THEM, ask for them to CONVINCE you. And when they respond, say if they are a Marxist - with the labor theory of value - you could say something like...

"According to the Labor theory of value, if I was to spend the same amount of hours laboring as Picasso, painting a picture, the value of the painting would be the same."

Clearly, that is fkken delusional. Obviously, the Subjective theory of value - pwns.

Or, if they are adovcating a minimum wage. Ask, "why not make the minimum wage $100 an hour?" ... just zingers like that. :) That in term, make THEM think.

Knowing the overall theory is great, regulation bad, economic freedom good, voluntaryism etc. but when it gets technical and details its much harder to beat the economic students who've spent years learning bullshit.

The Austrian School of Economics is where you should go to sharpen up the conversion skills. :)

</general post>

RevolutionSD
01-12-2009, 10:03 AM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?

Welcome to life out of the matrix!
The Red Pill is a tough one to swallow for most people.

From time to time I've had the same feeling as you. My advice is to never back down from your beliefs if the topic arises. But also understand that most people have solidly formulated their core beliefs by about age 22 and are not likely to change them no matter how many facts you give them. If your friends are not willing to be friends with you because you are advocating a peaceful, voluntary system, then they are not friends.

I tend to find the commonalities among my friends that are not libertarians. Like for democrats, it's easy to bond over anti-bush stuff and criticizing the war. For republicans you can usually bond over economic issues.

This isn't easy by any means because we do live in a world filled with crazy mixed up sheeple. But you do not have to be depressed as a libertarian! You have the truth. Your friends, although they may be few in numbers, will be TRUE friends, and you are the true progressives, moving the world forward instead of backward where statists want to push it.

fr33domfightr
01-12-2009, 10:38 AM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?


I'm wondering what your beliefs are? Is it just libertarnism, or something else?

You feel strongly about your position, but others may feel just as strongly in their convictions as well. You can't change everyone's mind, nor should you try. Sometimes people just will not listen. Also, many times people just don't want to talk politics, period. It's also important to know that there is a place and time for everything, and sometimes it's not appropriate. Sometimes, it might be helpful to listen more, and talk less.

Tell us what the exact issue is, what you strongly believe in, and maybe we can understand other people's reactions.


FF

OferNave
01-12-2009, 10:40 AM
I'd probably recommend - How I found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne for your relationship issues. And everything in general. :)

Seconded. Excellent book. After that I would recommend checking out http://freedomainradio.com/podcasts.html. The first 180 or so podcasts are about the usual stuff (politics, economics, history), but then it transitions to psychology/philosophy/relationship stuff. Expands greatly upon Harry Browne's material, and then some.

nullvalu
01-12-2009, 10:56 AM
How about focusing on what you have in common with people, rather than what you disagree on. No one will agree with you on 100% of everything. Don't become a hermit, that's a chicken's way out. It's much harder (& more rewarding) if you can face your problems head on and deal with them.

nullvalu
01-12-2009, 10:58 AM
I'm wondering what your beliefs are? Is it just libertarnism, or something else?

You feel strongly about your position, but others may feel just as strongly in their convictions as well. You can't change everyone's mind, nor should you try. Sometimes people just will not listen. Also, many times people just don't want to talk politics, period. It's also important to know that there is a place and time for everything, and sometimes it's not appropriate. Sometimes, it might be helpful to listen more, and talk less.

Tell us what the exact issue is, what you strongly believe in, and maybe we can understand other people's reactions.


FF

Expanding on that, libertarians believe in liberty of mind - of course - with the full knowledge that other have differing beliefs. If you expect everyone to agree with you - then you aren't a libertarian - you're more like a fascist.

RevolutionSD
01-12-2009, 11:22 AM
Seconded. Excellent book. After that I would recommend checking out http://freedomainradio.com/podcasts.html. The first 180 or so podcasts are about the usual stuff (politics, economics, history), but then it transitions to psychology/philosophy/relationship stuff. Expands greatly upon Harry Browne's material, and then some.

Thirded on the How I Found Freedom book.

And, absolutely check out freedomainradio.com, it's all about this subject!

Scribbler de Stebbing
01-12-2009, 11:40 AM
Have you ever spent an entire day with people without mentioning politics? It's possible.

But why would you want to?

I haven't read the rest of the responses yet, but do what I do: hang out with fellow liberty types.

Matt Collins
01-12-2009, 12:02 PM
I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?
Winter time sucks doesn't it? :(



I grew up in Orlando and now I live in Nashville. I used to get depressed every winter because I hate being cold and stuck inside. Also my first winter in college was in Nashville and a lot of bad memories are associated with that first semester and being cold.

But last year I kept myself so busy with the campaign I didn't notice. Until of course Feb 6th and then I was really down for about a month or so, but I watched movies (mostly about WWIII/nuclear apocalypse) and read a lot of libertarian books. Then it warmed up and I started going outside and doing other things etc.

I notice that if I keep myself busy, especially if it involves other people and friends + work, then I don't notice how lonely I am and how cold it is as much. Being distracted from it really is the key.



But you're right, libertarianism is a very individualist philosophy and getting us together is like trying to herd cats. We are the opposite of group think and are almost anti-social by our very nature.

I have a few real friends, and I have a LOT of acquaintances. But after the campaign I was able to see for myself exactly how lost and clueless most of the people around me really are, even my family. I think a large part of this is that they are plugged into the matrix and still get their news from the MSM, in other words, they are not independent thinkers.

But yeah my social skills need a bit of polishing if I am doing anything outside of the political arena or outside of my professional vocation (audio engineering). In other words I need to learn a bit more small talk because my natural tendency is to get into an intricate intellectual discussion; that doesn't pick up chicks.

fr33domfightr
01-12-2009, 12:03 PM
Or talk about issues of freedom and liberty a little each day. As the days go by, those around you start to pick up on those themes, without you having to do much at all. I've done it with the money issue (about the government printing money), and now many around me are repeating it. But I spoon feed them so as not to come off as being too forceful.


FF

torchbearer
01-12-2009, 12:07 PM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?

THis is why I enjoyed the Rally for Republic... actually, it was the people around me I enjoyed.
I stayed at the ronvoy campground. We stayed up all night around the fire talking...
It was great.

There are people out their you can connect with... until you meet them locally, we can be your Dear Abby.

I'm fortunate to have a GF who is right there with me when it comes to liberty.

Matt Collins
01-12-2009, 12:15 PM
Have you ever spent an entire day with people without mentioning politics? It's possible.Unless I'm working around other professionals, then no I don't.

Why? Because Neal Boortz puts it very well in his book:
Politics is critical to our lives.

People go to work, planning for the future, educating their children, making house payments, buying groceries, fueling their vehicles, planning family vacations, worrying about their health and healthcare, paying down their debt, and watching TV.

POLITICS INFLUENCES EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE ACTIVITIES!

No matter what we do as a society, politics is involved; especially when it comes to your pocketbook.

The amount of tax you pay is political.
The mandated safety devices on your car drives up the price and how they got there is political
The local building code you must follow when you build your house is politiical
Your child's education is political


Unfortunately almost every action we take is regulated or controlled by the government in one way or another; THAT'S POLITICS.


People "who are not interested in politics" are those who have said that you're not interested in the actions of people who control your bank account, your freedom, and your life.

Matt Collins
01-12-2009, 12:16 PM
PC, I identify with your situation. I am the kind of person that needs constant mental stimulation and I'm always chewing on something, trying to answer one tough internal question or another, so when I talk to other people, those are the things I want to talk about, not the weather, not sports, not the family dog, and it bores me to no end when people want to talk about everyday things. But what can you do? I've found that poker and beer help me socialize a lot better.It was once said that "People with small minds talk about other people. People with average minds talk about events. People with great minds talk about ideas"

Matt Collins
01-12-2009, 12:17 PM
I picked up some great friends working with my meetup group all summer. Great friends. Love 'em. If you haven't had the same experience, you didn't get enough done this last year--or so it seems to me.Yeah - I have met some really talented and awesome people from my Meetup. Most are acquaintances that I don't hang out with but will go to and plan events with. But I have acquired at least one set of what will be life-long friends from the Meetup.

Peace&Freedom
01-12-2009, 12:18 PM
On a personals type note, here is an article promoting the advantages of women considering libertarian males:

http://lifestyle.unanimocracy.com/be-a-man/2009/01/08/a-sidenote-to-single-women-who-cant-find-decent-guys/

Matt Collins
01-12-2009, 12:21 PM
THis is why I enjoyed the Rally for Republic... actually, it was the people around me I enjoyed.
I stayed at the ronvoy campground. We stayed up all night around the fire talking...
It was great.
Yeah... I got sick at the R4R because I over wore myself out staying up and being active. My body just got exhausted lol.

But it was weird being at the R4R because I knew that with EVERYONE there I could have a good conversation about something. Never have I been that surrounded by those many like-minded people. It was truly amazing; I didn't know how to take it. Normally when I'm in crowds like that I assume everyone else around me is an uneducated mindless moron which is usually true (I do rock concerts for a living ha ha). But that was not the case at R4R.

AJ Antimony
01-12-2009, 12:21 PM
First, BULLSHIT!

Your views alone are not the reason socializing is tough.

I'm actually pretty similar to you. I don't have many close friends. Almost everyone I meet, I fail to stay in touch with and be good friends with. I'm terrible at picking up chicks.

And this happens NOT because I'm libertarian, independent as fuck, and an atheist, but because I don't have the same carefree, outgoing attitude as most everyone else, I usually have a straight face, and I've always been awful at picking up chicks no matter what I believe in.

If anything, my libertarianism HELPS me. How? Because I'm THAT confident in it, the confidence makes me look good. It makes my mind look like an uncharted planet that others want to explore.

So my advice is, if you're willing to die for liberty, then you should be very confident in your viewpoints. And if you socialize with people who are truly offended by what you have to say, then explain why you take that position in terms that they will understand, and then move on. If they really can't respect you for doing more thinking than them, find new friends.

You really don't need 500 friends for the facebook list.

Paulitical Correctness
01-12-2009, 01:10 PM
Have you ever spent an entire day with people without mentioning politics? It's possible.

Actually, yes, and I quite prefer it that way - sometimes conversation just naturally evolves though.


You need to choose your battles. Life is short.

I know, I'm trying!


But what can you do? I've found that poker and beer help me socialize a lot better.

My poker face is shit, and I quit drinking! :p


As far as friends, I have very few, but they are precious like gold due to their scarcity.

I cherish the few [true] friends I have, and wholeheartedly believe in quality > quantity.


If you haven't had the same experience, you didn't get enough done this last year--or so it seems to me.

Guilty.


Nothing wrong with being a cynic.

Ha! Thank you.




Tell us what the exact issue is, what you strongly believe in, and maybe we can understand other people's reactions.

Well, just libertarian principles in general that people scoff at. Obviously to become angered over this would indicate I've learned nothing from watching the massively humble Ron Paul debate, but another issue - police brutality (which I'm militantly passionate about) is the topic in particular that set me off and inspired the original post. An argument of sorts with a friend regarding the Oakland cop, and his calling the police over a fight that had already ended in a private business got my blood boilin' pretty bad. He's basically a stickler for police intervention and comes off strongly authoritarian, but despite this remains one of my true friends (which is why it bothers me so much).


Expanding on that, libertarians believe in liberty of mind - of course - with the full knowledge that other have differing beliefs. If you expect everyone to agree with you - then you aren't a libertarian - you're more like a fascist.

Well, it's not so much that I desire agreement, but respect doesn't seem like too much to ask for. Sometimes close friends have resorted to personal attacks. Granted, I probably come on pretty strong with my beliefs and grill folks about how wrong they are. :eek:


In other words I need to learn a bit more small talk because my natural tendency is to get into an intricate intellectual discussion; that doesn't pick up chicks.

No, it certainly does not! :(


First, BULLSHIT!
Your views alone are not the reason socializing is tough.


Socializing ain't tough, maintaining and furthering personal relationships is - because as previously stated, I really can't seem to bite my tongue!

Thanks for the responses, especially the harsh ones. :p

Malakai
01-12-2009, 02:44 PM
It definitely gets lonely arguing points almost EVERYONE passionately disagrees with to the point of throwing hate over it all the time.

Most people, if you float the idea Israel is not a ray of sunshine, gods chosen people and chosen country who deserve any chunk of the mideast they want, they get extremely nasty.

If it wasn't for RP, Schiff, Lew Rockwell and a few others and their example (and this forum ofc!), I would probably lose the will to keep talking about it =)

Thanks guys, the truth is lonely but this place helps

Raul08
01-12-2009, 09:39 PM
Dont be an asshole about it,learn how to persuade and if they dont want to hear, forget about it. Just bring it up whenever they complain about something in politics.

OferNave
01-12-2009, 09:42 PM
Dont be an asshole about it,learn how to persuade and if they dont want to hear, forget about it. Just bring it up whenever they complain about something in politics.

Here's a good podcast about that:

http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_381_Loving_The_Sheeple.mp3

torchbearer
01-12-2009, 09:50 PM
Here's a good podcast about that:

http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_381_Loving_The_Sheeple.mp3

awesome podcast. must listen to it.

CUnknown
01-12-2009, 10:03 PM
Paulitical Correctness, I feel your pain. I haven't lost friends over my beliefs, but often I feel like I am not saying the things I really want to because I don't want to...um... reveal myself? Break the sheeple's bubble? I'm not sure.

It is hard to get used to either being quiet all the time, saying things you don't really believe, or for more close friends -- getting laughed at basically. It is hard being close friends with people whose intellect you don't completely respect (they are sheeple) , or with people who don't completely respect yours (they think I am either silly, paranoid or crazy, etc). But you have to just grin and bear it, heh. It's not so bad all the time, because you don't talk politics all the time, do you?

I think it is getting easier with the financial crisis. Talking doom and gloom and "Our govt has really messed things up" are not even just easier, they are kind of obvious to most people now.

Akus
01-12-2009, 10:43 PM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?
There is a difference between disagreeing and being combative. So some one think different, so what? Show with your actions that you and thus your opinions are better. Sell youself and your ideas will be sold as well.

The_Orlonater
01-12-2009, 10:53 PM
I think I should join this club. :p

dr. hfn
01-12-2009, 11:28 PM
i have the same problem sometimes. it can be hard on me. however, my beliefs i think are more important than any insignificant or superfluous relationship. consider moving to NH as part of the Free State Project

mport1
01-13-2009, 12:21 AM
Unless I'm working around other professionals, then no I don't.

Why? Because Neal Boortz puts it very well in his book:
Politics is critical to our lives.

People go to work, planning for the future, educating their children, making house payments, buying groceries, fueling their vehicles, planning family vacations, worrying about their health and healthcare, paying down their debt, and watching TV.

POLITICS INFLUENCES EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE ACTIVITIES!

No matter what we do as a society, politics is involved; especially when it comes to your pocketbook.

The amount of tax you pay is political.
The mandated safety devices on your car drives up the price and how they got there is political
The local building code you must follow when you build your house is politiical
Your child's education is political


Unfortunately almost every action we take is regulated or controlled by the government in one way or another; THAT'S POLITICS.


People "who are not interested in politics" are those who have said that you're not interested in the actions of people who control your bank account, your freedom, and your life.

QFT. It makes me very upset when people don't care about these things. Government unfortunately affects nearly every aspect of our lives.

To your main point, I completely understand your situation. I care about liberty very deeply and it is really the only thing that interests me and is something I would die for. I could talk about it 24/7. Unfortunately, I have found that most people just don't want to hear about it. My advice is to just hold back more on talking politics. I try to limit myself to only talking with people about it when there is something really crucial, and then if I get in a heated argument I will basically just agree to disagree after a point. It is very frustrating, but you have to realize where most people are coming from. They have been indoctrinated their whole lives and are very unlikely to ever accept liberty.

devil21
01-13-2009, 12:39 AM
I recall reading a while back about a study done that basically said that the smarter you are, the more unhappy you are and the less friends you have.

I just chalk it up to my inability (and Im sure the OP's too, as well as many people in this movement) to suffer fools lightly. It's probably not very healthy in a social sense but I prefer being alone simply because at least I can talk to someone with a fucking functioning brain. That's getting VERY hard to find in this country.

Conza88
01-13-2009, 12:49 AM
Unless I'm working around other professionals, then no I don't.

Why? Because Neal Boortz puts it very well in his book:
Politics is critical to our lives.

People go to work, planning for the future, educating their children, making house payments, buying groceries, fueling their vehicles, planning family vacations, worrying about their health and healthcare, paying down their debt, and watching TV.

POLITICS INFLUENCES EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE ACTIVITIES!

No matter what we do as a society, politics is involved; especially when it comes to your pocketbook.

The amount of tax you pay is political.
The mandated safety devices on your car drives up the price and how they got there is political
The local building code you must follow when you build your house is politiical
Your child's education is political


Unfortunately almost every action we take is regulated or controlled by the government in one way or another; THAT'S POLITICS.


People "who are not interested in politics" are those who have said that you're not interested in the actions of people who control your bank account, your freedom, and your life.

Imagine a society, WITHOUT POLITICS...

It's called Anarcho-Capitalism.

"I am interested in politics so that one day I will not have to be interested in politics." – Ayn Rand

The fact that Ayn Rand says it, makes it slightly retarded - since she advocated government and thus there would be elections, and politics. :rolleyes:

fr33domfightr
01-13-2009, 12:56 AM
Well, just libertarian principles in general that people scoff at. Obviously to become angered over this would indicate I've learned nothing from watching the massively humble Ron Paul debate, but another issue - police brutality (which I'm militantly passionate about) is the topic in particular that set me off and inspired the original post. An argument of sorts with a friend regarding the Oakland cop, and his calling the police over a fight that had already ended in a private business got my blood boilin' pretty bad. He's basically a stickler for police intervention and comes off strongly authoritarian, but despite this remains one of my true friends (which is why it bothers me so much).


Well, it's not so much that I desire agreement, but respect doesn't seem like too much to ask for. Sometimes close friends have resorted to personal attacks. Granted, I probably come on pretty strong with my beliefs and grill folks about how wrong they are. :eek:




Is the police brutality the case where the guy got shot? There are many examples we could bring up. I don't think any one of my friends, irregardless of political party, likes police brutality at all. Perhaps your friend had some bad experience, such that now he feels the strong need for heavy handed police tactics?? Who knows, maybe he was even taking the devils advocate position just to get your goat. Only you can answer that question. If you know someone for some length of time, you generally know WHY they think the way they do. Maybe his Father treated him badly and now he turned out the same way??? Some people have many friends, some have few friends. Me, I only have a few close friends, but I'm totally OK with that. Those few close friends, however, think like me, at least on the majority of things.

When you speak with conviction and almost force the person to accept you point-of-view they can feel verbally threatened and recoil. You'd probably do the same thing if someone was trying to convince you of something as well. I think you need to convince others with compelling ideas, not verbal attacks. If I feel someone is dead set in their ways, I'll tend to back off and just let them be.



FF

AggieforPaul
01-13-2009, 05:15 AM
That's really too bad. Both of my best friends are liberals, but we still get along just one. One is great to talk with. We recommend books to each other to explain our side, and he's really open minded. He and I recently read "empire of debt" which is a libertarian take on the causes of the financial crisis.

The other one I have really heated arguments with, but we remain great friends nonetheless. And I appreciate his dissent sometimes because at least arguing with him provides a challenge whereas arguing with most people just provides a nuisance.

Political views have never really had much of an effect on my friendships. My group of friends are polar opposites on the spectrum themselves, and they dont let these differences bother them. So why should I let it effect me? I am anxious though that someday the woman I fall in love with will see eye to eye with me. Marrying a fellow libertarian would make life easier.

AggieforPaul
01-13-2009, 05:19 AM
Or maybe you're creating a false dichotomy to make yourself feel better. "People don't like me for what I believe" is much kinder to the ego than "people don't like me for what I do."

There are plenty of people on this forum, and in this world, with ideologies and beliefs that challenge the mainstream, and more than a few of them are probably more radical and more diehard than you, and they don't seem to have any issues with maintaining personal relationships.

Maybe instead of taking the cop out that says "I have no control over my relationships with people because they don't agree with what I believe" you can take a moment to pause and reflect on what you did to make those opinions so offensive to them.

I speak from personal experience when I say that simply believing that the Federal Reserve is wrong, the media lies, and government is too big is not going to end relationships. Calling people sheeple on the other hand...

This is quite true. Saying the Fed sucks and the government sucks has made entire internet forums hate me, but its never been an issue IRL. In fact, so long as I leave the war in Iraq out of it, most people express pleasurable agreement, assuming I'm just a a hyperconservative.

One thing to also remember though, is that some occasions just dont call for political discussion no matter what you believe. There are times you shouldn't bring it up in a social setting no matter what you believe.

paulitics
01-13-2009, 10:42 AM
Absense makes the heart grow fond. Familiarity breeds contempt. It's important to remember this when socialising. You are probably boring them to death, with what they think is doom and gloom.

Most people's brains are wired through education and the media, and they simply regurgitate all that pollution back. It makes them feel good to see that it was all Clinton's fault, or George's fault. The republicans make good debt and bombs, and the democrats bad, vice versa. Blah, blah, blah.
Simply put, they are irrational and emotional. They pick a political template, liberal or conservative, and then filter out or reject any information contrary to it. They simply won't listen to you, no matter how irrational their viewpoint is. I repeat, they are not listening to you, and don't want to be free of irrational thoughts. It's ike a child holding on to a blanket.

If your mind is truly liberated, than you should never give that up, because you are enjoying a freedom most people never experience. Understanding this, you shouldn't beat your opponent up with facts. It won't work. You need to be more cunning. Have fun with it, but mix it up. Don't be predictable. Throw them off your scent. When they are dazed and confused, they are more suggestible. Only use this technique on the dishonest folks who spew forth garbage, and are so high on their own arrogance, that they debate dishonestly. The majority of people falll into this category, and their minds are more impressed with authority figures or images selling the sizzle rather than the steak. Hence, this is why cartoon bears wiping their butts to sell you toilet paper works best or an Australian lizard selling car insurance. Get the point.

ShannonOBrien
01-13-2009, 11:55 AM
I think everyone should seriously read "how to win friends and influence people." It's the most useful book I've ever read. I use the techniques in the book every day. It's not just some crappy self-help book.

orafi
01-13-2009, 12:42 PM
people think im cute for being libertarian. but in a patronizing way :( but theyre still interested in what i have to say.

but i do have two friends who think im evil for hating obama haha

heavenlyboy34
01-13-2009, 12:45 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, but my advice for the op is to make friends by avoiding hot button issues. I avoid talking about the kind of stuff we talk about here when in mixed company myself.

Chester Copperpot
01-13-2009, 12:54 PM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?

Take a page from Benjamin Franklin, in it I think you will find the answer to your dilemma"

My list of virtues contained at first but twelve; but a Quaker friend having kindly informed me, that I was generally thought proud; that my pride showed itself frequently in conversation; that I was not content with being in the right when discussing any point, but was overbearing, and rather insolent, of which he convinced me by mentioning several instances; I determined to endeavour to cure myself, if I could, of this vice or folly among the rest; and I added Humility to my list, giving an extensive meaning to the word.

I cannot boast of much success in acquiring time reality of this virtue, but I had a good deal with regard to the appearance of it. I made it a rule to forbear all direct contradiction to the sentiments of others, and all positive assertion of my own. I even forbid myself, agreeably to the old laws of our Junto, the use of every word or expression in the language that imported a fixed opinion; such as certainly, undoubtedly, &c., and I adopted instead of them, I conceive, I apprehend, or I imagine, a thing to be so or so; or it so appears to me at present. When another asserted something that I thought an error, I denied myself the pleasure of contradicting him abruptly, and of showing immediately some absurdity in his proposition; and in answering I began by observing, that, in certain cases or circumstances, his opinion would be right, but in the present case there appeared or seemed to me some difference, &c. I soon found the advantage of this change in my manners; the conversations I engaged in went on more pleasantly. The modest way in which I proposed my opinions procured them a readier reception and less contradiction; I had less mortification when I was found to be in the wrong; and I more easily prevailed with others to give up their mistakes and join with me, when I happened to be in the right.

And this mode, which I at first put on with some violence to natural inclination, became at length easy, and so habitual to me, that perhaps for the last fifty years no one has ever heard a dogmatical expression escape me. And to this habit (after my character of integrity) I think it principally owing, that I had early so much weight with my fellow-citizens, when I proposed new institutions or alterations in the old; and so much influence in public councils, when I became a member; for I was but a bad speaker, never eloquent, subject to much hesitation in my choice of words, hardly correct in language, and yet I generally carried my point.

In reality there is, perhaps, no one of our natural passions so hard to subdue as pride. Disguise it, struggle with it, stifle it, mortify it as much as one pleases, it is still alive, and will every now and then peep out and show itself; you will see it, perhaps, often in this history. For, even if I could conceive that I had completely overcome it, I should probably be proud of my humility.

acptulsa
01-13-2009, 12:59 PM
Take a page from Benjamin Franklin...

Best post of the thread.

Deborah K
01-13-2009, 01:03 PM
I hope this doesn't seem too cryptic, but I'm not too good at articulating my thoughts when I'm upset.

Anywho,

I’m incapable of maintaining, or blossoming new personal relationships with people. I can have acquaintances, that’s not really a big deal. But if someone gets close to me, I divulge things that a large majority of the population disagrees with. Which under normal circumstances would be fine, but I’m not simply strongly opinionated, I would die for this particular set of beliefs - which also means I’ll fight tooth and nail for them. And fighting is what I've done, verbal...although sometimes stepping into the physical realm has come far too close. This makes me, by default, impossible to get along with on any type of personal level. I’ve lost almost all of my friends, alienated others.. Family? Them too.

I come to this crossroad with two choices - change who I am, or accept eternal solitude. It’s getting lonely, but my fire still burns…

Anyway, so the whole thing isn't just an emotional rant, anyone else learned to keep their strong opinions at bay enough to uphold relationships harmoniously?

Study the laws of attraction. You bring into your life that upon which you consistently dwell. If you want great relationships, put together a couple of affirmations and say them several times upon awakening, then visualize your perfect situation. Do it again at lunch time and again right before you doze off for the night. The subconscious is more receptive to suggestion when it is coming out of, or entering the sleep state.

Your affirmations need to be in the present and without any negative words. So for example, don't say:

I'm going to meet lots of people who are not jerks to me.

Instead say:

I am becoming friends with people who have a similar value system as myself.

Never wish anything negative on anyone - EVER! And when a negative thought comes into mind xxxxx it out and replace it with a positive one. Be grateful for what you have in your life (and if you think you don't have much, try imagining living in Gaza or Iraq or Somalia). Try and do something nice for someone every day without telling them, even if it is a tiny thing. The universe will repay you with all the love and fellowship you crave. Doing these things will help you feel better about yourself as well, and when you feel good about yourself, it reflects in how you relate to others.

This method usually starts to work within a couple of weeks. Stick it out. You will be amazed. And keep me posted. I love the responses I get when I tell people about this method.

AggieforPaul
01-13-2009, 01:45 PM
best post of the thread.

+1776

Scofield
01-13-2009, 02:01 PM
I disagree and agree with a lot of what has been said here.

Some of you seem like you're under the impression that, while you're not talking about politics, they cease to exist. As if, when people weren't talking about the Jews going into the ovens in Nazi Germany, the Jews were home living comfortably.

That is false.

It is extremely hard to live in this society when you know what's going on, and while the majority of the people are retarded and either: don't care or don't understand.

I can socialize easily, and when I am not online, that's usually what I am doing. Yet, there are days where I just want to pack my bags and never look back. This isn't just about politics, but about life in general. Some people, probably on this board as well, have no idea of the storm that is ahead of us. It is not an easy task just brushing those thoughts aside and going on with everyday life.

BuddyRey
01-17-2009, 01:37 AM
I can deeply and truly relate to this, PC. I don't think my case is nearly as bad as yours (I wish you the best of luck with healing your relationships!), but this general problem has still been on my mind of late.

I have great relationships with my family, and they're more or less on-board with a liberty mindset, but we do get into disagreements sometimes. For example, my dad and I got into a pretty heated kerfuffle last week over the Free State Project. I can't wait to move to New Hampshire, get a fresh start with a new life and a new locale, and get involved with the liberty activism up there. My dad, on the other hand, has a ton of preconceived notions about New Hampshire. "It's cold all the time.", "It's probably full of loud, cranky Northerners.", "There's probably nothing much going on there anyway, and they're building it up to be more than it is.", etc. etc. etc., and he's never even been there or researched it in any way! What's more, he thinks that anywhere you go up north must be loud, busy, and urban, when the fact is that New Hampshire has an astoundingly versatile topography and geography, from bustling metropolitan cities and sleepy, idyllic towns to rural farmland and rocky beaches. Anyway, I digress...

It turned into this huge, heated discussion with both of us getting short-tempered and impatient with eachother, despite the fact that we are inseparably close almost all the time. I don't like fighting with my loved ones, so I changed the subject. We moved on and it's almost as if it never happened, but I'm still licking my wounds. I think that what's even worse than just being disagreed with, which doesn't normally bother me, is being disagreed with when all of the facts and research is on your side, and the person you're arguing with is just operating on assumptions, stereotypes, circular logic, and fear of the unknown. In fact, I think these gripes of mine are a perfect microcosm of the larger concept of libertarian apologetics. Doesn't it always seem as though debating the merits or demerits of liberty with most people is like arguing with a brick wall?