The Mormon Gulag

[Mesogen]

Apparently there is a place where bad boys are sent to get over their decadent urges and it's pretty much like a gulag.

The Utah Boys Ranch.

http://www.mormongulag.com/

and here is a blog post about it.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=093F35B7A274CA2C7D0F1D155E 019196?diaryId=8920


This story is about Eric Norwood's personal experiences at a place called The Utah Boys Ranch, which models itself as a "tough-love" prep-school, but while Eric was there, he witnessed some unbelievable atrocities. It is a Mormon-funded and staffed facility, and religious indoctrination is a fundamental aspect of the school. There was sexual, physical, and emotional abuse, suicide, staff corruption, and escape. A major Utah political figure, Senator Chris Buttars, was the executive director while Eric was there.

Barry was a white guy, a big mother. At least 6'5", and I would not be surprised to hear that he weighed more than 300 pounds, but he was not fat. Paul was shorter and had a darker complexion. He was big too, and meaner than Barry. He turned to me when we first got into their white mid-sized rental car and said, "You have a choice. You can be cool and get on an airplane with us and be there in a couple of hours, or you can sit back there with handcuffs on for the next 12 hours. Non-stop."

"Where are we going?" I asked, still in shock.

"Utah," Barry answered casually from the passenger seat, without turning his head. "We are from the Utah Boys Ranch, Eric, and your parents have asked us to take you back with us."

"What?" My head was spinning. I felt like I was going to throw up. There is no way that this was happening. My mom would never allow this. Utah? What the hell is a Boys Ranch? I couldn't breathe.

"I guess we're driving," Paul said odiously.

I knew the child-lock would be on and as I saw the familiar houses of my grandmother's street pass by, I started to roll down the window. We weren't going fast enough for them to notice yet and the warm Agoura Hills climate didn't tip them off. I rolled it down enough to fit my arm out and open the door from the outside when Paul paused at the stop sign at the bottom of the hill, looked back at me, and stopped the car.

He shoved the gear into park and pulled handcuffs out of somewhere and told me to give him my wrists. I sat there cuffed for a moment when I realized that I really would die from this feeling in my chest - a physical manifestation of angst. My heart was beating furiously, and I knew that I couldn't last 12 hours.

"You can take me on a plane. I'll be cool."

"Now that's more like it," Barry said kindly. "My wife will be happy."

The first person I met in Utah was Senator Chris Buttars. I had no idea who he was until that point.

All I knew was that he was to be feared, and I was scared to death of him from the moment I first saw him.

"Sit down," he squawked in a loud, high pitched, galling voice that sounded like a cross between a buzzard and an old cowboy. He continued to make it very clear that I was at his mercy. He told me who he was - politically - and the influence he had. If I ever wanted to leave I was to do what he said. "How old are you?"

"Fifteen," I mumbled.

"Three years might not be enough for you. I can have a judge order you to be here until you are 21," he croaked. With that he sent me off to be "changed and put on work crew."


I was then given a "leash" made of climbing rope and what I think was a square knot to tie around my waist.

I had never imagined being tethered and walked like a dog, but here I was, being walked like a dog towards a cluster of about 12 other boys. They were lined up facing a wall while two large men in red sweatshirts watched them from a couple of chairs off to the side.

Some of the boys had camouflage pants on, a few others wore dresses. I wondered how long I was to be in this blanket dress. I was later told that it was so I wouldn't run away - and they were right - I literally could not run in this humiliating getup. I could barely get a full stride walking.


Boys with "sexual issues" are housed together in what could only be some cruel showing of satire.

They were constantly being caught jerking each other off onto each other, or, more tragically, assaulting younger boys. Whatever it was, they would be shoved into blankets and thrown on work crew. On Tuesday night they would meet with all the boys with sexual issues and provide remedies like IcyHot on the penis to stifle homosexual urges.

I was kept there until they couldn't keep me any longer, and on my 18th birthday I walked out the front doors into a cold October morning with nowhere to go and nothing but my freedom. If I didn't experience it myself I would not believe a place like this exists. A Mormon gulag.

So cops bust up the Texas Ranch where nothing was seemingly going on, but this place continues to exist.

That kid was there for 3 years. How in the living fuck could any of those people think that these kids would be good by treating them like that? Ah, but they didn't. They were just sick sadistic perverts who had a place to live out their fantasies.

[Mesogen]

Chris Buttars ordered two large men to violently rip my clothes off, shave my head bald and made me walk around naked (my underwear was torn in struggle) with nothing but an army blanket for 2 weeks. My room mates whom I was locked in with were there for sexually molesting their younger brothers. I was 13 and I never recovered from my experiences there.

It was much worse than that but I can't stand to describe it. I'd give anything to ask him ‘why?’

He allowed mentally ill children to grow up without any psychological treatment (mental illness in the boys ranch was defined as "the crazy act for attention") He also turned a blind eye to prison justice against these kids in his boys ranch

Beyond that he is the worst human being I've ever been eye to eye with.


Buttars?

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155505

[Pennsylvania]

Holy crap :mad:

[Mini-Me]

If all of this is true, Eric Norwood should be canonized as a saint for not killing that asshole.

[mconder]

This "gulag" is/was a private organization. Not one penny of church funding was used to run this camp. No church leader has ever said this was part of an authorized Church program for the rehabilitation of young boys. Just like people of other religions, there are crazy Mormons just like their are crazy Catholics. Sometimes people get together and form private organizations on their own time and dime. I am not defending this place, I am just asking that you not implicate the Church in some sort of conspiracy to affect mind control on it's young male membership. I have been a life long member, and I am free to believe or not believe. I have never witnessed any element of force in it's teachings and I would say that the fundamental doctrines are quite libertarian in nature. I could explain this in depth, but you guys already seem to closed minded to hearing why our faith is the most libertarian ever.

[Mini-Me]

This "gulag" is/was a private organization. Not one penny of church funding was used to run this camp. No church leader has ever said this was part of an authorized Church program for the rehabilitation of young boys. Just like people of other religions, there are crazy Mormons just like their are crazy Catholics. Sometimes people get together and form private organizations on their own time and dime. I am not defending this place, I am just asking that you not implicate the Church in some sort of conspiracy to affect mind control on it's young male membership. I have been a life long member, and I am free to believe or not believe. I have never witnessed any element of force in it's teachings and I would say that the fundamental doctrines are quite libertarian in nature. I could explain this in depth, but you guys already seem to closed minded to hearing why our faith is the most libertarian ever.

?
Maybe I missed something here, but I haven't seen any anti-Mormon comments in this thread...:confused: Am I missing context with respect to the rest of the forum?

[Pennsylvania]

you guys already seem to closed minded to hearing why our faith is the most libertarian ever.

What exactly makes "us" seem "close minded"? Please provide quoted examples.

[mconder]

Maybe I missed something here, but I haven't seen any anti-Mormon comments in this thread..

Don't BS me and act all innocent. There's only one reason this would be posted as "The Mormon Gulag," and that is to implicate The LDS Church or it's membership as being a bunch of mind control Nazis. Seriously Mesogen, was that not your intent?

[Mini-Me]

Don't BS me and act all innocent. There's only one reason this would be posted as "The Mormon Gulag," and that is to implicate The LDS Church or it's membership as being a bunch of mind control Nazis. Seriously Mesogen, was that not your intent?

Don't be so presumptuous. It's the name of the damn website. Now, I can't see into Mesogen's mind, and maybe he used the website name in the thread title because he got some sense of satisfaction out of it, but for me, this is the first time I've heard of anything like this, and I'm placing blame right where it belongs, which is not with the religion.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

This "gulag" is/was a private organization. Not one penny of church funding was used to run this camp. No church leader has ever said this was part of an authorized Church program for the rehabilitation of young boys. Just like people of other religions, there are crazy Mormons just like their are crazy Catholics. Sometimes people get together and form private organizations on their own time and dime. I am not defending this place, I am just asking that you not implicate the Church in some sort of conspiracy to affect mind control on it's young male membership. I have been a life long member, and I am free to believe or not believe. I have never witnessed any element of force in it's teachings and I would say that the fundamental doctrines are quite libertarian in nature. I could explain this in depth, but you guys already seem to closed minded to hearing why our faith is the most libertarian ever.

You believe the lies of a convicted con-artist. Sorry,

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

to implicate The LDS Church or it's membership as being a bunch of mind control Nazis.

They are.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Mormons believe Jackson county Missouri was the location of the Garden of Eden, and America is a special land chosen by God as a place reserved for people who love freedom.

[mconder]

It's the name of the website.

There's a reason it is and I sure we all know why. There are thousands of people on the web with an axe to grind against the LDS Church. The fact that there is a link with "The Mormon Connection" and a line on that page saying that Hinckley receives their news letters. What other possible explanation is there other than the fact the creator of the website wants to illustrate that the Church is involved in mind control programs for it's male youth? Who knows why the Church president got their news letter. More than likely he could have been following the organization to see what kind of PR nightmare it might become for the Church.

[mconder]

You believe the lies of a convicted con-artist.

You believe the lies of Joseph Smith's enemies. There is no way the truth could be spun about Joseph Smith by the powers that be at the time. And how was McCarthy or Lincoln remembered? Exactly the way the powers that be want them to be. How will Ron Paul be remembered? I'm sure you are ultimately scrutinizing when reading the comments of Ron Paul detractors, but would you pause before slandering the leader of my religion. No, because it's not your religion. What exactly is your motivation here?

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

You believe the lies of Joseph Smith's enemies. There is no way the truth could be spun about Joseph Smith by the powers that be at the time. And how was McCarthy or Lincoln remembered? Exactly the way the powers that be want them to be. How will Ron Paul be remembered? I'm sure you are ultimately scrutinizing when reading the comments of Ron Paul detractors, but would you pause before slandering the leader of my religion. No, because it's not your religion. What exactly is your motivation here?

Why should I stop slandering your religion? What makes religion so special that your faith is free from criticism?

I also slam every economic Keynesian and Socialist that comes through here, and not one of them has ever said, "please, pause from slandering my beliefs"

And just like the Keynesian economic textbooks plaguing the economic system, your Mormon book belongs in the same place they do, in the garbage.

[mconder]

Mormons believe Jackson county Missouri was the location of the Garden of Eden...

Why is this relevant and who the hell cares? Do you have a better explanation for where the Garden of Eden was? Christians in general believe that the earth was created in 7 days and that Jesus was born of a virgin birth. Do either of those things seem any more like they could be explained by the logical mind than the garden of Eden being located in Jackson County Missouri?

[mconder]

Why should I stop slandering your religion? What makes religion so special that your faith is free from criticism?

All I was saying that it is a cheap shot to link the LDS Church with some crazy fringe organization and I am fully convinced that is the intent of both the website and this post.

[Mesogen]

There's a reason it is and I sure we all know why. There are thousands of people on the web with an axe to grind against the LDS Church. The fact that there is a link with "The Mormon Connection" and a line on that page saying that Hinckley receives their news letters. What other possible explanation is there other than the fact the creator of the website wants to illustrate that the Church is involved in mind control programs for it's male youth? Who knows why the Church president got their news letter. More than likely he could have been following the organization to see what kind of PR nightmare it might become for the Church.

Some of the testimonials on the site say that they are still in the LDS church, but they can't believe this place exists.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Why is this relevant and who the hell cares? Do you have a better explanation for where the Garden of Eden was? Christians in general believe that the earth was created in 7 days and that Jesus was born of a virgin birth. Do either of those things seem any more like they could be explained by the logical mind than the garden of Eden being located in Jackson County Missouri?

Im just saying that at least the regular Christians have the whole "It happened a long time ago in a far away exotic land" thing going on. Yours says, "No it happened right there on 4th street next to the deli"

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

All I was saying that it is a cheap shot to link the LDS Church with some crazy fringe organization and I am fully convinced that is the intent of both the website and this post.

Its all crazy. Just to various degrees. The other Christians have there wacky Jesus camps as well.

[Mini-Me]

There's a reason it is and I sure we all know why. There are thousands of people on the web with an axe to grind against the LDS Church. The fact that there is a link with "The Mormon Connection" and a line on that page saying that Hinckley receives their news letters. What other possible explanation is there other than the fact the creator of the website wants to illustrate that the Church is involved in mind control programs for it's male youth? Who knows why the Church president got their news letter. More than likely he could have been following the organization to see what kind of PR nightmare it might become for the Church.

While I realize people all over the web have a petty axe to grind against the LDS Church, the two reasons I know about are not particularly compelling for me:
Religious people of other denominations make fun of the Mormons for believing in the book of Mormon...which is pretty ridiculous, considering how patently obvious it is that the book came about absolutely no differently from pretty much every other religious text in existence. Mitt Romney's Sideburns apparently likes ridiculing Mormons too, but he's a special case, considering he's just one of those charming super-atheists who will rage against religion every chance he gets for the fun of it. :rolleyes:
People like to persecute them for the polygamy thing and the simpler/more communal lifestyle that some of them have...but in my opinion, assuming nobody's rights are actually being violated, people should mind their own business and just leave the Mormons in peace.

THIS, on the other hand...this story is completely different. If it's true - and it's quite possible it's not, since you can't believe everything you read on the web - then heads need to roll. This is the first time I've heard about anything resembling an American gulag (not counting things like Guantanamo Bay). Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. Maybe there's a connection to the mainline Church of LDS, maybe there's not - but actually, I didn't even consider it until you brought it up, because I only briefly visited the website to get a vague idea of its size, respectability, etc. Assuming the story is true, I just figured it was a fucked up little camp that hardly anyone knew much about.

Maybe I'm underestimating the amount of Mormon-bashing going on over the net, but I think you're being a little overly defensive. Hell, I was under the impression that the Mormons were pretty respected here for their advice on saving food for a rainy day, canning and jarring it, etc.

[mconder]

Even if this place does exsist, how much different is it than a military school where people send their delinquents for help before they either kill someone or end up in jail? They had pictures of staff using force against some of them? You don't think that happens in Juve? You've never seen a teen act in way that required force to subdue them? Did the kid hit one of the teachers? Seriously, if you're tipping on this place that badly why don't you do some private investigation into the matter.

Good Mormon parents require their kids to go to church and seminary until their 18. In fact, good parents of all sorts force their kids to do things they don't want to do. This website makes them look like the devil for requiring church and seminary attendance. This is just a fact of being under 18. Depending on what you are born into, you will be forced to partake in a lifestyle you may not choose when your an adult.

[mconder]

Maybe I'm underestimating the amount of Mormon-bashing going on over the net, but I think you're being a little overly defensive.

Yes...I think most people do. Google Joseph Smith or The Book of Mormon and the vast majority of hits will be anti-mormon. I really don't understand why these "good Christians" or atheists for that matter, waste their time disproving the Mormon church when they could be teaching The Gospel of Christ," but it is their right waste as much of their own time as they like.

[Mini-Me]

Even if this place does exsist, how much different is it than a military school where people send their delinquents for help before they either kill someone or end up in jail? They had pictures of staff using force against some of them? You don't think that happens in Juve? You've never seen a teen act in way that required force to subdue them? Did the kid hit one of the teachers? Seriously, if you're tipping on this place that badly why don't you do some private investigation into the matter.

Good Mormon parents require their kids to go to church and seminary until their 18. In fact, good parents of all sorts force their kids to do things they don't want to do. This website makes them look like the devil for requiring church and seminary attendance. This is just a fact of being under 18. Depending on what you are born into, you will be forced to partake in a lifestyle you may not choose when your an adult.

If presented with a specific testimonial about this kind of abuse going on at a military school, do you honestly think I - a member of Ron Paul Forums - would not express similar outrage (assuming the allegations are true)? I don't even like the very idea of any of these forced "disciplinary" schools exist! After all, kids have rights, and they are not the inert property of parents. The very idea that parents can hold their teenagers captive - or worse, send them to some abusive school that can hold them captive - sickens me. That said, I'm not going to do my own investigation into the matter or even pay much attention to it outside of this thread, because there are simply too many other issues to worry about that are screwing us over on a larger scale (like growing government tyranny).

[dannno]

Did they really put icy hot on their penises??? How the hell is that supposed that help anything?

Does it say what that kid was in for anywhere?

[yongrel]

"We have EVERYTHING in my family. Prescription drug abuse, mental illness, one of my uncles is a mormon."

-Christopher Titus

:D

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Do the Mo-Mo-Mormon RAP!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TeV8yp8ALM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkaT-9pyf3c&feature=related

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Mitt Romney's Sideburns apparently likes ridiculing Mormons too, but he's a special case, considering he's just one of those charming super-atheists who will rage against religion every chance he gets for the fun of it. :rolleyes:

I agree with this post

[Mini-Me]

I agree with this post

I tried my best to give a fair and balanced description. ;)

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Cartoon explaining Mormonism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo&feature=related

[Mesogen]

Did they really put icy hot on their penises??? How the hell is that supposed that help anything?

Does it say what that kid was in for anywhere?
It helps the people that run the place get off on their sadistic fetishes.

The kid that gave the testimony in the OP and on the blog post was "in" for not going to seminary and church.

[dannno]

Cartoon explaining Mormonism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo&feature=related

If that's the South Park episode, then as an x-Mormon, I have to say it is inaccurate and misleading... as much as I love South Park.

The rest of that episode, where they make fun of the quirky Mormon family, is hilarious. Even Mormons would get a big kick out of it.

[dannno]

It helps the people that run the place get off on their sadistic fetishes.

Seriously.. all Icy Hot is going to do is make you think about and focus on that particular area of your body for about an hour..I'm pretty sure that just makes it a lot worse.




The kid that gave the testimony in the OP and on the blog post was "in" for not going to seminary and church.

Wow, that's awful. I hope his Bishop didn't recommend this place to his parents. That's what I'm afraid of, even if it's not a church sponsored organization, are they advertising to church leadership?

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

If that's the South Park episode, then as an x-Mormon, I have to say it is inaccurate and misleading... as much as I love South Park.

The rest of that episode, where they make fun of the quirky Mormon family, is hilarious. Even Mormons would get a big kick out of it.

No, its not a southpark episode. It looks like it was done in the 80s.

[Mesogen]

The SP episode I linked to was the one where Butters was sent to a Christian re-education camp where kids kill themselves under the pressure to not be "bi-curious."

[Freedom 4 all]

I think going to seminary should be an extremely personal decision. Parents shouldn't be making those kind of decisions for their kids, especially at a young age. Permanent cellibacy certainly isn't for everyone, for some I don't believe it is even possible. As for the camp, if even a word of the story is true then that senator should be impeached and the camp should be shut down, this is an utter violation of rights and I think even most Mormons would be able to see that.

[torchbearer]

The SP episode I linked to was the one where Butters was sent to a Christian re-education camp where kids kill themselves under the pressure to not be "bi-curious."

My friends was sent to a "pervert camp" as he calls it because he is gay. A christian ran camp that believes sexuality is a choice. If that is the theory, then we are all born bi-sexual, and we choose to be hetero... hmmmmm, maybe....

My friend, he made back alive, but he is still gay, but has learned to keep it hidden.
Jesus Rocks!

[Mesogen]

My friends was sent to a "pervert camp" as he calls it because he is gay. A christian ran camp that believes sexuality is a choice. If that is the theory, then we are all born bi-sexual, and we choose to be hetero... hmmmmm, maybe....

My friend, he made back alive, but he is still gay, but has learned to keep it hidden.
Jesus Rocks!

The whole question of WWJD comes up here.

Really, WTFWJD? I have no idea. Cast out teh ghey demons? :confused:

But that reminds me of the time I came out as black. I was in the closet forever and I didn't know how people would take it. So one day when I was still going to Jena High School I woke up and was having breakfast with my parents and I just came out with it. Mom, Dad, I'm black. My Dad wasn't cool with it, threatening me by hanging a noose in the tree in the front yard. After that, I've learned to keep it hidden.

he he
http://xs435.xs.to/xs435/09024/jesus_rocls201.jpg






Ok, all kidding aside, what happened to your friend at the camp?




/

[torchbearer]

Ok, all kidding aside, what happened to your friend at the camp?




/

From what he described, it sounded like a criminal rehab facility, forbidden to leave, calls at certain times, from certain people.
Given a mandate job, which probably pays for the prison...
They had counseling sessions, but my friend quickly found out that it wasn't really counseling... it was monitoring...
as in, he was honest to his counselor about his feelings of homosexuality, he was then put on tighter restrictions.
So no therapy was really being given, just being worn down mentally until you submit to their will.
You know... the usual chrisitan love thing.

[torchbearer]

...

[dannno]

Cartoon explaining Mormonism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo&feature=related

This is about 80% accurate.. maybe less.. the rest is total crap. I'm pretty sure it was made by born-again Christians.

[Mesogen]

From what he described, it sounded like a criminal rehab facility, forbidden to leave, calls at certain times, from certain people.
Given a mandate job, which probably pays for the prison...
They had counseling sessions, but my friend quickly found out that it wasn't really counseling... it was monitoring...
as in, he was honest to his counselor about his feelings of homosexuality, he was then put on tighter restrictions.
So no therapy was really being given, just being worn down mentally until you submit to their will.
You know... the usual chrisitan love thing.
That reminds me of the time when I was a teenager and my parents found out I smoked pot occasionally. They sent me to this place that was Christian based but was in a hospital. I had no idea where they were sending me. I was in there with crackheads and heroin addicts (and alcoholics) and they would ask me why I was there. I told them "cuz I smoked pot" and it was like that scene in Half Baked with Bob Sagett.

Anyway, they wanted me to go to these little counseling sessions every day and it dawned on me that all they wanted from me was to go through the motions. I just had to say what they wanted me to say and it was over. It was totally pointless, but I guess they got paid just the same.

But it gave them a chance to put me on prozac, which sucks. Never take that shit.

I love it. Hey kid, don't do that drug, it'll mess with yer brain! Do this drug instead!
But I did meet up with this crazy lady that could hook me up with plenty of xanax, so thanks crazy christian rehab place!

[mconder]

If that is the theory, then we are all born bi-sexual, and we choose to be hetero... hmmmmm, maybe....

We'll, thank goodness we don't all choose to be **** or there would be no us.

[mconder]

After all, kids have rights, and they are not the inert property of parents. The very idea that parents can hold their teenagers captive

Your right. You should never force a kid to do anything they don't want to do. It will destroy them and make them mindless robots...(Sarcasm). Anyway, you go right ahead with this method of raising your kids. I seriously would love to hear how they turn out in their adult life. And no, I don't consider a self absorbed, objectivist, atheistic, humanist a success even if Ayn Rand would.

[Reason]

You believe the lies of Joseph Smith's enemies.

lol

[Tatsit]

I could crap on all religions - all have good, bad and ugly from their past and present. Obviously I am not Christian.

I live in Utah - and for all the faults of all faiths even Mormons, I do have to say this, they are very dedicated people and when the NWO is rang in I will be lucky that I live in Utah because I am pretty sure the Mormons will resist and even a militia has formed by a large group of Mormons.

Well as for initial topic, yes it is real, as for the allegations that is presented - I do not think it is Mormon owned and operated - possible, but I don't think so.

As for **** camps - lol that would suck - all organizations that try and change your personal feelings and beliefs are just another constraint of control - worthless.

[glts]

It is always amazing to me that people that know absolutely nothing about an idea, religion, etc. think they know the most about it. They probably have never cracked a book unless it is some anti pamphlet, or spent 3 minutes on a website but somehow they are now an expert and have a great need to expound their 'wisdom' to others. I have found through experience in my many years on earth -shut up until you know the whole story, lived in someone shoes, and have walked the walk. I guess I am a free spirit I really don't care if people won't to worship frogs, pigs or dolphins. It amazes me that people like Mitt Romney's sideburns are so concerned about what people want to do with their own life.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

It amazes me that people like Mitt Romney's sideburns are so concerned about what people want to do with their own life.

Because beliefs dictate actions.

[Hiki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB8fPJ6zds8

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB8fPJ6zds8

Bill Maher is an asshat. He is no friend to critical thinking and skepticism. He admits he believes in God, its just religion he has a problem with. Hes another one of those douchebags too afraid to accept what they believe and dont believe, so he goes looking for a happy intelectual middle ground where he doesnt have to get caught up on taking sides. Much like fake libertarians like Neal Bortz

He reminds me a lot of our very own Truth Warrior. He wont commit himself to a position, he just makes fun of everyone else.

[LibertyEagle]

Guys, unless you want this movement to stay the same size it is, or reduced by the number of people reamed by same, we might really want to consider focusing on those things that will get us out of this predicament we now find ourselves in. Instead of insulting the hell out of each others' faiths.

[Hiki]

Bill Maher is an asshat. He is no friend to critical thinking and skepticism. He admits he believes in God, its just religion he has a problem with. Hes another one of those douchebags too afraid to accept what they believe and dont believe, so he goes looking for a happy intelectual middle ground where he doesnt have to get caught up on taking sides. Much like fake libertarians like Neal Bortz

He reminds me a lot of our very own Truth Warrior. He wont commit himself to a position, he just makes fun of everyone else.

No he doesnt believe. He just doesn't know for sure.

[Freedom 4 all]

Bill Maher is an asshat. He is no friend to critical thinking and skepticism. He admits he believes in God, its just religion he has a problem with. Hes another one of those douchebags too afraid to accept what they believe and dont believe, so he goes looking for a happy intelectual middle ground where he doesnt have to get caught up on taking sides. Much like fake libertarians like Neal Bortz

He reminds me a lot of our very own Truth Warrior. He wont commit himself to a position, he just makes fun of everyone else.

I disagree. Bill Maher takes the only logically defensible position. He's an agnostic just like every single human being on the planet. He's an atheist agnostic, just like the Pope is a Catholic agnostic, Rick Warren is a Christian agnostic. Fundamentalists like Pat Robertson, Richard Dawkins, Fred Phelphs, Osama Bin Laden and company are all equally kidding themselves if they think they know for sure.

[Original_Intent]

I disagree. Bill Maher takes the only logically defensible position. He's an agnostic just like every single human being on the planet. He's an atheist agnostic, just like the Pope is a Catholic agnostic, Rick Warren is a Christian agnostic. Fundamentalists like Pat Robertson, Richard Dawkins, Fred Phelphs, Osama Bin Laden and company are all equally kidding themselves if they think they know for sure.

You make the false assumption that because you don't know, no one can.

Of course, that makes sense from an atheist agnostic PoV. :rolleyes:

[Freedom 4 all]

You make the false assumption that because you don't know, no one can.

Of course, that makes sense from an atheist agnostic PoV. :rolleyes:

Incorrect, I lean towards, rather than away from a belief in God.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

No he doesnt believe. He just doesn't know for sure.

"Religion to me is a bureaucracy between man and God that I don't need. But I'm not an atheist, no. I believe there's some force. If you want to call it God... I don't believe God is a single parent who writes books"

That about settles it. Bill Maher does indeed believe there is a higher power

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

I disagree. Bill Maher takes the only logically defensible position. He's an agnostic just like every single human being on the planet. He's an atheist agnostic, just like the Pope is a Catholic agnostic, Rick Warren is a Christian agnostic. Fundamentalists like Pat Robertson, Richard Dawkins, Fred Phelphs, Osama Bin Laden and company are all equally kidding themselves if they think they know for sure.

Then you would have to be agnostic about everything. It makes the term completely meaningless. Hell, you would have to be agnostic about unicorns, fairies, the French, Pop-Tarts, and Australia.

Get over this notion about absolute certainty. Its completely useless.

[torchbearer]

unicorns, fairies

technically, such things could exist. all combinations are possible within the genome. more creatures than we can imagine probably exist throughout the universe.
But i'm not sure they DO exist... and i'm not sure they DON'T exist.
I just know they don't exist here on earth at this present time.

Being that we know little about out universe, which is evidence by the amount we learn everyday through our observations.... I'd say anyone who definitely says there isn't a god/higher power/divine/force/something bigger than us out there is being dishonest with themselves.
No possible way for you to know for certain if you haven't seen it.

Pluto(the quasi-planet) exist, but had you asked Peter the Apostle, he'd told you there could be no such thing.. and if there was... then why can't he see it?

[Conservative Christian]

"I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

--Albert Einstein
Saturday Evening Post (Oct. 26, 1929, p.17)


..

[Pennsylvania]

Good thing such an "intelligent human being" believed zealously in World Government (http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einstein/global/world.php)

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

technically, such things could exist. all combinations are possible within the genome. more creatures than we can imagine probably exist throughout the universe.
But i'm not sure they DO exist... and i'm not sure they DON'T exist.
I just know they don't exist here on earth at this present time.

Being that we know little about out universe, which is evidence by the amount we learn everyday through our observations.... I'd say anyone who definitely says there isn't a god/higher power/divine/force/something bigger than us out there is being dishonest with themselves.
No possible way for you to know for certain if you haven't seen it.

Pluto(the quasi-planet) exist, but had you asked Peter the Apostle, he'd told you there could be no such thing.. and if there was... then why can't he see it?

Again, you are hung up on the notion of absolute certainty. Its completely useless.

Its ridiculous for me to have to say I must be agnostic about everything. The time for believing in things is when there is evidence to justify such belief. I dont need to call myself agnostic about unicorns and pixies and transformers and the Lords of Kobol.

Your Pluto and Peter analogy fails pretty hard. Nobody would have asked Peter if he believed in Pluto unless they had know about it and observed it themselves. otherwise how would they have even know about Pluto in order to ask him about it? And then they could have let him look through the telescope and see it for himself.

[torchbearer]

Again, you are hung up on the notion of absolute certainty. Its completely useless.

Its ridiculous for me to have to say I must be agnostic about everything. The time for believing in things is when there is evidence to justify such belief. I dont need to call myself agnostic about unicorns and pixies and transformers and the Lords of Kobol.

Your Pluto and Peter analogy fails pretty hard. Nobody would have asked Peter if he believed in Pluto unless they had know about it and observed it themselves. otherwise how would they have even know about Pluto in order to ask him about it? And then they could have let him look through the telescope and see it for himself.

You don't have to be agnostic about everything... just things you can't prove as fact.
What is fact?
THings you can sense. (see, hear, touch, feel, taste, smell)
That is you body reacting to a stimulus around you. You know its there.
Then for things you can't sense... you should hold the possibility for it to be so...
This will leave you open to learn new things with no hurdles... and give you a creative edge against those people who say "it can't be so".
Newton was agnostic. Copernicus was agnostic, Kepler was agnostic. WHy? because they never accepted the knowledge of that day as the only facts.

You have to first admit you don't know, before you will seek the understanding to know.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

You don't have to be agnostic about everything... just things you can't prove as fact.
What is fact?
THings you can sense. (see, hear, touch, feel, taste, smell)
That is you body reacting to a stimulus around you. You know its there.
Then for things you can't sense... you should hold the possibility for it to be so...
This will leave you open to learn new things with no hurdles... and give you a creative edge against those people who say "it can't be so".
Newton was agnostic. Copernicus was agnostic, Kepler was agnostic. WHy? because they never excepted the knowledge of that day as the only facts.

You have to first admit you don't know, before you will seek the understanding to know.

By this logic I have to wast time being agnostic about any stupid claim someone makes. Its an absurd position.

For instance, do you believe in the Lords of Kobol? The mythical creators of man from the television show Battlestar Galactica? Since you cant say for certain they dont exist, by your reasoning, the only logically justified position is to be agnostic.

[torchbearer]

By this logic I have to wast time being agnostic about any stupid claim someone makes. Its an absurd position.

For instance, do you believe in the Lords of Kobol? The mythical creators of man from the television show Battlestar Galactica? Since you cant say for certain they dont exist, by your reasoning, the only logically justified position is to be agnostic.

Yes, that would be honest.
I know he doesn't exist in my sphere of known world.
But if someone else wants to believe he exist... thats ok. As long as they aren't getting the government to push the Lords of Kobol's agenda.
Then I will have a problem with their government interference.
Not their idea of such a thing possibly existing.
Though I will debate them on the subject.. because I could be wrong...they may prove they do exist.
I don't know.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Yes, that would be honest.
I know he doesn't exist in my sphere of known world.
But if someone else wants to believe he exist... thats ok. As long as they aren't getting the government to push the Lords of Kobol's agenda.
Then I will have a problem with their government interference.
Not their idea of such a thing possibly existing.
Though I will debate them on the subject.. because I could be wrong...they may prove they do exist.
I don't know.

Do you not see how silly this argument is?

[torchbearer]

Do you not see how silly this argument is?

Its not an argument.
It is being willing to accept that you don't know everything, and that those things you take as fact, may not be so...
It doesn't mean you don't know anything, but that not everything is known.
That is very logical.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Its not an argument.
It is being willing to accept that you don't know everything, and that those things you take as fact, may not be so...
It doesn't mean you don't know anything, but that not everything is known.
That is very logical.

But you are trying to use this to arrive at an absurd position of intellectual dishonesty in regards to your position on the question of belief in a single assertion.

[torchbearer]

But you are trying to use this to arrive at an absurd position of intellectual dishonesty in regards to your position on the question of belief in a single assertion.

Your above post is a supposition.

[Freedom 4 all]

Your Pluto and Peter analogy fails pretty hard. Nobody would have asked Peter if he believed in Pluto unless they had know about it and observed it themselves. otherwise how would they have even know about Pluto in order to ask him about it? And then they could have let him look through the telescope and see it for himself.

If you are going to go with that logic then God necessarily exists, seeing as people ask about it.

[wizardwatson]

Bill Maher is an asshat. He is no friend to critical thinking and skepticism. He admits he believes in God, its just religion he has a problem with. Hes another one of those douchebags too afraid to accept what they believe and dont believe, so he goes looking for a happy intelectual middle ground where he doesnt have to get caught up on taking sides. Much like fake libertarians like Neal Bortz

He reminds me a lot of our very own Truth Warrior. He wont commit himself to a position, he just makes fun of everyone else.

I agree with you that Maher is an asshat.

Religion is supposed to be about practice, about self-awareness and being a better person. It's the dogmatic stuff and the "God or no God" stuff that is irrelevant.

If there is a "force" in the universe, I seriously doubt it cares about what you conjure up in your imagination factory. It probably doesn't have time to care as it's too busy 'being the force'.

Action is what matters. The practice of religion is what matters. Communication of religion is no different than communication of any other idea, it isn't perfect. Religious communication is doubly imperfect though by those who prey on the weak in order to control and manipulate them.

What bothers me about people who are into spreading 'the truth' about 'reality' is that they tend to want to attack the weak for being weak rather than focusing on how exactly the manipulative among us have bent and contorted the original message.

[worl]

Guys, unless you want this movement to stay the same size it is, or reduced by the number of people reamed by same, we might really want to consider focusing on those things that will get us out of this predicament we now find ourselves in. Instead of insulting the hell out of each others' faiths.

The ultimate goal of the anti-religious elites is to transform America into a completely secular nation, a nation that is legally and culturally biased against Christianity. RON PAUL. Their goal is to separate people & cause arguments within the Ron paul movement. I would suspect them being obama or huck. supporters & they know without the christian vote we stand no chance of geting anyone elected, so they attack religion. This is a tactic used a lot by goverment's to control the people. The best way to deal with these people is to ignore them.

[torchbearer]

atheism is the consequence of the Pat Robertson's of the world.
Without them... people wouldn't be so turned off about the idea of religion.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

atheism is the consequence of the Pat Robertson's of the world.
Without them... people wouldn't be so turned off about the idea of religion.

Absolutely wrong here. The only reason I even half to call myself an Atheist is because there are so many people who are deluded into thinking their is a god or group of gods.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

The ultimate goal of the anti-religious elites is to transform America into a completely secular nation, a nation that is legally and culturally biased against Christianity. RON PAUL. Their goal is to separate people & cause arguments within the Ron paul movement. I would suspect them being obama or huck. supporters & they know without the christian vote we stand no chance of geting anyone elected, so they attack religion. This is a tactic used a lot by goverment's to control the people. The best way to deal with these people is to ignore them.

Wow, you really are ignorant. You think atheists are secret Huckabee supporters trying to break the Ron Paul movement apart?

And maybe the 9/11 truthers are really part of a secret Rudy Giuliani gulag?

[torchbearer]

Absolutely wrong here. The only reason I even half to call myself an Atheist is because there are so many people who are deluded into thinking their is a god or group of gods.

or a force....

[M House]

I'm with Mitt here for the most part, I don't think he's got the right to judge an individual on their religious affiliation but I think he's got the right to call bullshit at bullshit. After reading all these threads about atheism is destroying the fabric of government and being a communist tactic, I kinda feel some people really don't get it. Our leaders are religious, the government's religious, and actually there weren't that many atheists in commie country.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

and actually there weren't that many atheists in commie country.

Yep. The connection between Communism and Atheism makes about as much sense as trying to link the Communists to the Amish populations of Ohio and Pennsylvania because both groups prohibit their citizens from using the Internet.