Does anyone honestly expect change?

[Scofield]

I'm not talking about Obama change, I'm talking about the change all of us want to see. I'm talking about returning to the days of "rights of life, liberty, and property" and government/society abiding by such.


Having been to multiple forums and spoken to multiple different types of people, the general consensus is...they are perfectly fine with the way it is. They don't care about rights, nor do they care about freedom. All they care about is their job their kids, their friends and family, their 360's and PS3's. As long as they can afford to put food on the table, and play some xbox, they don't care. They don't care about the economy, our foreign policy, our domestic policy, et al. They just don't care.

They don't care about unjust laws, nor do they care about government tyranny. Hell, the majority of them are pumped that Obama will be president. The others were sad that McCain didn't win, but Obama should do fine.

We are in a losing battle. We cannot enlighten the masses because they refused to be enlightened. They don't want change, they just want to live their lives in without having to here about Ron Paul or liberty and freedom. Like I said, as long ass they can feed their family and watch some tv or play xbox, they have no qualms.

I honestly don't think we will see liberty in our lifetimes, and if we do, it won't be in this country. I am honestly contemplating leaving this country, as to live among the scum that live in this country is too much for me to bare.

We need to start our own country. Someone find some land for sale.

[nodope0695]

Absent an uprising of the people, the only change I foresee is a move toward totalitarianism, fascism, and complete despotism.

Uprising is required. When will it happen, and what is it gonna take?

[Scofield]

Uprising is required. When will it happen, and what is it gonna take?

When the masses can't feed their families and watch TV. The uprising won't be for liberty or peace, but because they need food and video games.

People have no principle. They have no line in the sand. As long as it's not Nazi Germany (concentration camps) they aren't going to do anything. And even then, I don't think people will fight back. One percent of our population is in prison, no one can honestly tell me with a straight face it should be that way. Anyone with half a brain should be able to think that maybe something is wrong.

But nope. They've got food and TV....life's grand.

[kathy88]

It is beyond sickening that they play games while their rights go down the drain.

[The One]

No.

[nodope0695]

When the masses can't feed their families and watch TV. The uprising won't be for liberty or peace, but because they need food and video games.

People have no principle. They have no line in the sand. As long as it's not Nazi Germany (concentration camps) they aren't going to do anything. And even then, I don't think people will fight back. One percent of our population is in prison, no one can honestly tell me with a straight face it should be that way. Anyone with half a brain should be able to think that maybe something is wrong.

But nope. They've got food and TV....life's grand.

Yep, I've said it many times, give 'em their American Idol and an iPod, and the sheeple are happy. The American Idol so they can vote, and the iPod so they can ignore the world.

My question is simple: When will a few men get pissed off enough to take decisive action against the corrupt government? When do the gloves come off, and the guns come out? How much more boldfaced theivery and corruption will we as a people allow?

[ClayTrainor]

It is beyond sickening that they play games while their rights go down the drain.

Hey, don't hate on gamers now. There's plenty of other time wasters out there, everyone is guilty of at least one of 'em. ;)

[AdamT]

Honestly, no. The mass of people are too gone, ie brainwashed/forgotten their American roots. Not unless some kind of "event" occurs. What that might be I have no idea, except maybe a financial collapse or ETs landing on the WH lawn :)

[sevin]

I imagine there might be change for the better eventually. Probably not in our lifetime.

[phill4paul]

Absent an uprising of the people, the only change I foresee is a move toward totalitarianism, fascism, and complete despotism.

Uprising is required. When will it happen, and what is it gonna take?

When there is totalitarianism, fascism, and complete despotism.

Plan now. Invest in tomorrows stock. Horses and guns.

[Anti Federalist]

When the masses can't feed their families and watch TV. The uprising won't be for liberty or peace, but because they need food and video games.

People have no principle. They have no line in the sand. As long as it's not Nazi Germany (concentration camps) they aren't going to do anything. And even then, I don't think people will fight back. One percent of our population is in prison, no one can honestly tell me with a straight face it should be that way. Anyone with half a brain should be able to think that maybe something is wrong.

But nope. They've got food and TV....life's grand.

The US has more people in prison, both in raw numbers and per capita, than other nation on earth.

You could be rounding up whatever group of "undesirables" and stuffing them into gas chambers, and as long as the idiot box tells them it's OK, Boobus wouldn't even raise an eyebrow.

Hell, they'd probably tune in to watch and cheer it on.:mad:

There will either have to be a real revolution that drags these useless idiots along for the ride kicking and screaming, or secession.

I prefer the latter.

[Kotin]

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty"


-President Thomas Jefferson.

[CzargwaR]

No because I'm an optimistic realist.

[sevin]

No because I'm an optimistic realist.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

[qh4dotcom]

I'm not talking about Obama change, I'm talking about the change all of us want to see. I'm talking about returning to the days of "rights of life, liberty, and property" and government/society abiding by such.


Having been to multiple forums and spoken to multiple different types of people, the general consensus is...they are perfectly fine with the way it is. They don't care about rights, nor do they care about freedom. All they care about is their job their kids, their friends and family, their 360's and PS3's. As long as they can afford to put food on the table, and play some xbox, they don't care. They don't care about the economy, our foreign policy, our domestic policy, et al. They just don't care.

They don't care about unjust laws, nor do they care about government tyranny. Hell, the majority of them are pumped that Obama will be president. The others were sad that McCain didn't win, but Obama should do fine.

We are in a losing battle. We cannot enlighten the masses because they refused to be enlightened. They don't want change, they just want to live their lives in without having to here about Ron Paul or liberty and freedom. Like I said, as long ass they can feed their family and watch some tv or play xbox, they have no qualms.

I honestly don't think we will see liberty in our lifetimes, and if we do, it won't be in this country. I am honestly contemplating leaving this country, as to live among the scum that live in this country is too much for me to bare.

We need to start our own country. Someone find some land for sale.

Don't lose hope...the modern day Nostradamus has predicted that in a few years it will become difficult to feed families like you mentioned...if his predictions come true then the sheeple will learn the hard way and be forced to change for the better...here you go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46MEqEgdLTg

[Scofield]

It really is depressing.

Like Anti-Federalist, I think the only way we regain our freedom is to secede or move to an entirely new country.

[hadenough]

It's gonna be like the intro to Terminator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peqEf5enXJs

[raystone]

According to our poll here, the highest percentage of us don't believe Americans will ever wake up.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=159834&highlight=poll%3A+wake+people

Sisyphean, no ? Damn moral obligation

[Original_Intent]

It is really sad but hard times often turn people away from their little distractions and wake people up.

We are a long way from being there, and frankly I don't know if we will get there. People have such a sense of entitlement, I really do think that by and large we have a nation of five year olds, emotiionally, so I don't know that even bad times will help.

[CzargwaR]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Sure, unless you can separate rationality from belief like me... :)

or, just go plain crazy.

[Anti Federalist]

It is really sad but hard times often turn people away from their little distractions and wake people up.

We are a long way from being there, and frankly I don't know if we will get there. People have such a sense of entitlement, I really do think that by and large we have a nation of five year olds, emotiionally, so I don't know that even bad times will help.

Exactly like a five year old that has been a given a toy much too expensive and complicated for his age.

When the gubermint cheese runs out, they will sit there crying, unable to understand why the fancy toy doesn't work anymore.

The toy their own neglect, abuse and lack of understanding broke in the first place.

[mport1]

If we continue to use the same failed political tactics we have used for decades, we will fail. We must use education, market activism, and peaceful non-compliance/civil disobedience to have any hope at change. We should consider things like the Free State Project (http://www.freestateproject.org). If we could get just a few thousand people to move to NH and get active for liberty, we could see some change.

[Fox McCloud]

yes, I do expect some change, but not for the better...just change in party name, direction, and some policies...plus where money will be spent.

all in all though, as for "change for the better"? No I don't expect that to change one bit....Obama is talking about a $500 to $1000 tax cut for middle-class families...seriously, what will that do? Yeah, I'm sure there's TONS of people who would be glad to have it, including a great many here, but seriously, $500-$1000 over an entire year? Assuming you got payed each week and you did get a total of $1000 in tax-break...you're only getting and extra $20 added on to your paycheck...hardly anything to get excited about.

IMHO it's just something to appeal to the masses...people see the $500-$1000, then see "middle-class" and think "I'm Middle Class, I'll get that--this is a really great thing", then they stop thinking there.

in any event....the tax cuts are good, but they won't do anything to ease America's pain.

[Xchange]

Does anyone honestly expect change?...

Hell Yes...If I expected anything else...I wouldn't waste my time...
spaming friends and family...lol....signs around town

I can only afford very little time to lurk here on this forum..
But I always stay informed...even went to R4R...

There are many like me I believe

[mport1]

My question is simple: When will a few men get pissed off enough to take decisive action against the corrupt government? When do the gloves come off, and the guns come out? How much more boldfaced theivery and corruption will we as a people allow?

A violent revolution would only worsen our situation. That is what the government is ready for. People will also not be on our side if they do not understand and accept our position. We would only be further marginalized. Our revolution must be peaceful.

[RonPaulR3VOLUTION]

Ron Paul - U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIWDHg-WjFU&sdig=1

"I am surprised at the suddenness as well as the greatness of this revolution… It is the will of Heaven that the two countries should be sundered forever. It may be the will of Heaven that America shall suffer calamities still more wasting, and distresses yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies, and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor, and destroy us. The furnace of affliction produces refinement in states as well as individuals. And the new Governments we are assuming in every part will require a purification from our vices, and an augmentation of our virtues, or they will be no blessings. The people will have unbounded power, and the people are extremely addicted to corruption and venality, as well as the great. But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe." –John Adams, Letter to Abigail Adams, July 3, 1776 in The Works of John Adams, vol. 1, p. 230 (C.F. Adams ed. 1856).

"Is not the change we have seen astonishing? Would any man, two years ago have believed it possible, to accomplish such an alteration in the prejudices, passions, sentiments, and principles of those thirteen little states as to make every one of them completely republican, and to make them own it? Idolatry to monarchs, and servility to aristocratical pride, was never so totally eradicated, from so many minds in so short a time." * (http://books.google.com/books?id=kdDRJLxBhl4C&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=%22Is+not+the+change+we+have+seen+astonishing%2 2&source=web&ots=aTe14K8vYT&sig=qBqRnIKfCbqYWHohcrmquuTxlWI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result)

[Kludge]

Nah. I'd be happy with being able to keep at least 10% of my salary in 10 years, though.

[Mini-Me]

Here's my own experience:
Out of the members of my own extended family who are neocons or similar, I must say that they DO care about politics, and they DO have ideas vaguely resembling "principles." It's just that they have the wrong ideas, and they fervently support their party and its vision of America. They discuss politics, world events, etc., but they do so always through the eyes of the corporate media and always with partisan blinders on, without seeing the bigger picture or really "getting" what America should be all about. One side of my family is still fervently neocon (and unlikely to change), and the other side at least realizes Bush's Presidency was a disaster and Iraq was a mistake. That's a start. ;) My great uncle was so furious with Bush he refused to vote for any Republican this time around, and he basically refused to hear that Ron Paul might be any different.

My closest uncle (who married into the family when I was a toddler), on the other hand...he's been a lifelong Republican, but he was always open-minded, and he actually voted for Perot in 1992 (and at the time, vowed never again to vote third party after Clinton won). After hearing both me and apparently his brother (I think) speaking highly about Ron Paul, he decided on his own volition to seek out youtube videos and then The Revolution: A Manifesto...and he's been sold ever since. I think he said it was like a "light bulb" or something. He's not strictly libertarian or anything (in terms of recognizing the non-aggresion principle, being fully comfortable with legalizing drugs, etc.), but he's a very sharp guy, and he "gets it" in the practical sense. He's always been fiscally conservative, but now he realizes just how bloated our government is. He realizes the insanity of our foreign policy and the injustice of ideas like the draft (he detests the idea that the government owns his son), etc.

I have two little sisters: The older of the two is mostly apathetic, always has been, and probably always will be (except on the single issue of abortion, where she's fervently pro-life...and shockingly, she actually did speak with me about a couple other issues one night for perhaps as many as a minute or two - there may still be hope! ;)). The younger one is more sensitive and socially conscious. She has a problem with injustice, particularly the police state, police brutality, etc., she likes Ron Paul, even if she doesn't spend her days and nights thinking about politics or coming up with a consistent political ideology. She's still young, anyway. When I was her age, I was a fascist little neocon. ;)

My Mom always voted Republican her whole life mainly because my Dad did, but after divorcing him, she began to shift some of her views (gay marriage, etc.) and start paying more attention to world events. She doesn't really have an overwhelming interest in politics or time to study issues and come up with a firm political ideology, and I think she's too afraid that she's not smart enough to be interested in such issues, but she's nevertheless open-minded and extremely big-hearted. I think that left to her own devices, she would have become an earnest Democrat (with the exception of pro-life views), due to the misleading perception that they're more compassionate and concerned with social justice. She's really worried about the state of the world and the country and thinks it's going to hell in a handbasket, and we discuss these things sometimes. Because of the confidence aspect I mentioned before and because she knows how much I've thought about things, she gives what I think and pretty much votes along those lines.

So, what's the point?
None of these people - except one - are entirely apathetic to the world outside their bubble. They care about politics and world events. They have political ideas, sometimes strong ones, even though many of those ideas are very wrong. With a couple exceptions, they're still not the proactive type that would devote any real time and energy unless their own livelihoods were significantly interrupted, but they still care on some level. My Dad isn't very libertarian (though he did vote for Ron in the primary for reasons like loving the idea of abolishing the IRS), and he's basically a neocon-with-a-somewhat-better-grasp-of-fiscal-conservatism, but he's able to give me some insight into how a lot of people must think: He used to be really into politics, but when Ross Perot lost the 1992 election (and I think he voted for Bush anyway because of Perot's short drop-out), he pretty much lost all hope that anything significant would ever really change in the country. He settles for voting for the lesser-of-two-evils on the tax issue now, and that's about it. He told me once that my passion is great, but that I should focus on my own life instead, putting 99% of my effort into bettering my own situation and 1% of my effort into trying to make the world a better place, on the off-chance it might do anything. Despite his deeply flawed political beliefs, those are not the words of a man who is entirely apathetic: They are the words of a man who feels small and powerless to change anything. (Actually though, he did get politically involved once in a group trying to stop an increase in local school taxes...which were already being horribly misspent. I think the difference here was that he felt they might be able to stop it - and they did, for several years in a row!)

If my family and extended family are any indication: Ordinary Americans are not going to get fired up about liberty the way we do. They are not going to run for office. They are not going to canvass door-to-door*. They aren't even going to spend time analyzing issues deeply, muchless come up with a self-consistent belief set based on fundamental principles. This is just the way it is. However, they do still care on some level. We just need to reach them and show them what views and principles they should care about! This is easier said than done, because people are stubborn as hell in their political views...but if we can do this, we can prevail. The average Joe will not canvass door-to-door for pro-liberty candidates...but if we're persuasive enough, he can still be convinced to at least vote for one. You see, we don't necessarily NEED for people in America to "wake up" and feel the passion we feel - all we need to do is convince them to sympathize with us and not to be obstacles!

What we need to do is start young: We need to get people interested in pro-liberty values before they become indoctrinated into the two-party system. Not many will become hardened freedom fighters, but if we succeed, they'll at least vote for us instead of against us. Plus, there IS a certain personality type that might be more likely to become fiercely passionate: The kind of kids who can be indoctrinated to join the armed forces and fight and die "for their country" may be mistaken in their views...but for the most part, I imagine they're among the most passionate members of the population. I think their passion can be harnessed for good.

*Obviously, there are exceptions. A girl around my age came up to my door last night - in the freezing f'ing cold - canvassing on behalf of Ohio Citizen Action to prevent a coal plant from being developed up the Ohio River. She was more concerned about the environmental issues than anything else, and I wasn't able to sign her petition at the time since I wasn't familiar enough with the issue...but had I realized that it was about stopping municipal government contracts with a certain coal company that would lock ratepayers in for 50 years, I would have signed on in a heartbeat (it was basically corporate welfare / a government-granted monopoly...and it was a particularly bad deal, too). Anyway, the point is: A girl just came to my house in the freezing cold last night because she was concerned about a political issue. Americans are not hopeless.

[Mini-Me]

Ron Paul - U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIWDHg-WjFU&sdig=1

"I am surprised at the suddenness as well as the greatness of this revolution… It is the will of Heaven that the two countries should be sundered forever. It may be the will of Heaven that America shall suffer calamities still more wasting, and distresses yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies, and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor, and destroy us. The furnace of affliction produces refinement in states as well as individuals. And the new Governments we are assuming in every part will require a purification from our vices, and an augmentation of our virtues, or they will be no blessings. The people will have unbounded power, and the people are extremely addicted to corruption and venality, as well as the great. But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe." –John Adams, Letter to Abigail Adams, July 3, 1776 in The Works of John Adams, vol. 1, p. 230 (C.F. Adams ed. 1856).

"Is not the change we have seen astonishing? Would any man, two years ago have believed it possible, to accomplish such an alteration in the prejudices, passions, sentiments, and principles of those thirteen little states as to make every one of them completely republican, and to make them own it? Idolatry to monarchs, and servility to aristocratical pride, was never so totally eradicated, from so many minds in so short a time." * (http://books.google.com/books?id=kdDRJLxBhl4C&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=%22Is+not+the+change+we+have+seen+astonishing%2 2&source=web&ots=aTe14K8vYT&sig=qBqRnIKfCbqYWHohcrmquuTxlWI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result)

Inspiring. :) I believe that when we succeed - when, not if - we will feel the same thing that John Adams felt. :)

[xd9fan]

Yes change!!!!
Thats all that will be left in my pocket after Barry is done

[american.swan]

You see, we don't necessarily NEED for people in America to "wake up" and feel the passion we feel - all we need to do is convince them to sympathize with us and not to be obstacles!

I agree with this.

The vast majority just needs to feel back for us and get our of our way. But also that mass of prison population sounds good to me, maybe we can use them to fight for liberty. :)

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[akihabro]

In response to Mini-Me:
Funny, enlightening and sorta depressing. I like the last paragraph. At least there are some passionate people!
Your story reminds me of my best friend. He finishes his work, goes home and plays video games. He lives in his "world" Another friend has told me "If it doesn't concern me I don't care." At least one of my friends has voted since 00' and another not to close friend support Ron Paul.
I like my Xbox 360. I play call of duty 4 and 5. But yes I can see how people can become blind and just work there 9-5 go home to their social life and never think 2x about the world except the one they encounter everyday.
I'm the only one different in my family. They vote democrat.
I was uninterested in politics until about 4 mos. ago. It was boring and I felt that they do what they want. I wonder how many voted for Obama just because they were tired of Republican Bush and voted democrat or because he was black. No matter your political views or ethnicity its sad to vote for only these reasons.
Yes you are right young people do have passion and we need to capture their minds. Maybe its just me but young and old need to consider the real implications and open their mind and find the truth. Hopefully its libertarian lol.
If you blame T.V for brainwashing I'll list my favorites on my cable box. CNN, Discovery, CSPAN 1,2,3, CNBC, History, BBC, Current TV, NGEO, PBS, SCIFI, TBS, AMC, Comedy. Travel, Speed and ocassionally fox news for the papa bear slant. I guess I'm brainwashed by News and politics.

[dr. hfn]

we need to create our own society ruled by life, liberty, and property. a nation run by the rule of law and a constitution with a republican form of gov't.
Join the Free State Project, they are established and are already working hard toward that goal. Maybe one day we can seced from the Union.
In the meantime keep being an activist and educating yourself, friends, and family.

[Stary Hickory]

Well I think we will see a change, the more people find out about Libertarian ideals and more importantly understand the logic and soundness of Austrian economics they will see the light.

The level of ignorance out there is amazing, and the US government has every interest in maintaing apathy and ignorance, it's how they control and manipulate the people. Therefore education and zeal can overcome this and change could be a result.

If a rebellion started I would fall in line, if it meant preventing a socialist state or saving our constitution. I prefer peaceful means, but if it's a choice between enslavement and war I will choose war any day.

[akihabro]

I thought my last post wasn't sent. How can I erase this?