"You Are Racist if You Don't Support High Taxes" - NYTIMES

[mediahasyou]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/opinion/02krugman.html?ex=1388552400&en=7117d3dcb10487d4&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg


Where did this hostility to government come from? In 1981 Lee Atwater, the famed Republican political consultant, explained the evolution of the G.O.P.’s “Southern strategy,” which originally focused on opposition to the Voting Rights Act but eventually took a more coded form: “You’re getting so abstract now you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites.” In other words, government is the problem because it takes your money and gives it to Those People.


WTF.

[RSLudlum]

:rolleyes: ...tell that to my black friends and hispanic in-laws that hate taxes also!

[krazy kaju]

NYTIMES: Economic prosperity, growth is racist.

[canadian4ronpaul]

thats somewhat typical of the new york times. it is probably the worst newspaper ever written. I cant stand how every media outlet uses the financial crisis to write off freemarket capitalism. they just pander to the masses who cant be bothered to investigate for themselves. and of course, towing the good 'ol fashioned "gop is racist" slogan.

[asimplegirl]

I am racist then, simple as that.

[Anti Federalist]

LoL - and the New York Slime's readership has declined, how much, over the past year?

Could it be the unvarnished shilling for the welfare/warfare state?

But don't worry, just like banks you won't borrow from and car companies whose products you won't buy, the newspapers that print crap you won't read are gonna get a bailout too:

Government aid could save U.S. newspapers, spark debate (http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSTRE4BU53T20081231?sp=true)

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:50pm EST

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Connecticut lawmaker Frank Nicastro sees saving the local newspaper as his duty. But others think he and his colleagues are setting a worrisome precedent for government involvement in the U.S. press.

Nicastro represents Connecticut's 79th assembly district, which includes Bristol, a city of about 61,000 people outside Hartford, the state capital. Its paper, The Bristol Press, may fold within days, along with The Herald in nearby New Britain.

That is because publisher Journal Register, in danger of being crushed under hundreds of millions of dollars of debt, says it cannot afford to keep them open anymore.

Nicastro and fellow legislators want the papers to survive, and petitioned the state government to do something about it. "The media is a vitally important part of America," he said, particularly local papers that cover news ignored by big papers and television and radio stations.

[Standing Like A Rock]

it was the democrats that were originally for the spread of slavery... the republicans were against it.

[acptulsa]

And I say that to intimate or imply that an end to welfare would harm one race more than the other is inherently racist. Are they saying most blacks and few whites are on it? What's their point?

Screw this obvious and shameful hyperbole. What they don't realize is under every spurious and uncalled for charge of racism is another charge of racism that can be thrown right back at the accuser.

You say this will harm one race more than the other? But race isn't the main criteria, so you're saying that the races aren't intrinsically equal--because if you thought they were, you'd know that this isn't unfair to any person due to their race. You admit that it isn't unfair to any individual, but you think it will affect one demographic more than the others? What do you imagine is inherently different about those particular people?

It really, really isn't that hard to hoist a liberal on his or her own petard, people.

[Primbs]

http://money.aol.com/investing/companies-who-will-disappear-in-2009?icid=200100397x1215512730x1201021990

I can't wait.

New York Times to go bankrupt?

"The New York Times has to repay $400 million in debt in the first half of 2009. It plans to mortgage its headquarters, but what that will bring in an uncertain real estate market is unknown. The firm's 'Boston Globe' and regional newspaper operations lose money, so they will be hard to sell. Another big media operation, perhaps News Corp which owns 'The Wall Street Journal' and 'The New York Post,' will come in and auction off what it can and keep the flagship 'New York Times' newspaper and NYTimes.com website".

[Paulitician]

Paul Krugman: moron and propagandist.

[Paulitician]

I thought Mr. Krugman was a "goo goo":

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/26/opinion/26krugman.html

That was from last week. How amazing, Obama wants to "make government cool again.” :rolleyes: (Since when has government ever been "cool"? It's incredibly immoral and destructive)

[dannno]

I am racist then, simple as that.

No, you're racist because you believe blacks are inferior to other races ;)

[Josh_LA]

NYTIMES: Economic prosperity, growth is racist.

reality is racist, isn't it?

[asimplegirl]

No, you're racist because you believe blacks are inferior to other races ;)

But, I don't believe that.

If being against high taxes makes me racist, then I am proud to be one.

[angelatc]

I hear something about the accepted theoritical problems with attrition in there. It goes - when government scales back, people who use the services are affected the most. SO, if the majority of social welfare recipients are black, they would naturally stand to lose the most.

It is a short term "problem" though, and that's something the politicians are afraid of.

[werdd]

krugman is a turd.

[BlackTerrel]

You say this will harm one race more than the other? But race isn't the main criteria, so you're saying that the races aren't intrinsically equal--because if you thought they were, you'd know that this isn't unfair to any person due to their race. You admit that it isn't unfair to any individual, but you think it will affect one demographic more than the others? What do you imagine is inherently different about those particular people?

For most of our history the races weren't equal. That's why you have a lot of rich white people and a lot of poor black people (not saying ALL, but it's disproportionately so). If you don't believe me go drive around the neighborhood I grew up in, my guess is you wouldn't feel safe there.

So what's the solution? Welfare? Reparations? I don't know.... but if the goal is to make us equal you can't just ignore the past 200 years and say "oh well the people that have the money deserve it". There needs to be some form of "spreading the wealth" if we are ever to become even close to being equal.

[Anti Federalist]

For most of our history the races weren't equal. That's why you have a lot of rich white people and a lot of poor black people (not saying ALL, but it's disproportionately so). If you don't believe me go drive around the neighborhood I grew up in, my guess is you wouldn't feel safe there.

So what's the solution? Welfare? Reparations? I don't know.... but if the goal is to make us equal you can't just ignore the past 200 years and say "oh well the people that have the money deserve it". There needs to be some form of "spreading the wealth" if we are ever to become even close to being equal.

Reparations?

Hey, why the hell not, everybody else is bellying up for trillions of fugazi money.
:rolleyes:

[angelatc]

For most of our history the races weren't equal. That's why you have a lot of rich white people and a lot of poor black people (not saying ALL, but it's disproportionately so). If you don't believe me go drive around the neighborhood I grew up in, my guess is you wouldn't feel safe there.

So what's the solution? Welfare? Reparations? I don't know.... but if the goal is to make us equal you can't just ignore the past 200 years and say "oh well the people that have the money deserve it". There needs to be some form of "spreading the wealth" if we are ever to become even close to being equal.

From what I've read, the black families were far better off before welfare existed. Obviously integration needed to happen, but before the government became the Dad black families were stronger, and there was a lot less 'trouble" like drugs and violence.

But spreading the wealth should be the result of the market forces, not white liberal guilt over failed social policy. When we lived in Indy, the UPS hub started running shuttles into the city because they desperately needed workers.

Then the Mexicans showed up, though. Messed it all up. If only we had enforced out borders....

What we need is to foster ambition.

[Conza88]

Paul Krugman: moron and propagandist.

Yeah, there is no way someone can be that stupid. He's a disgrace.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

So what's the solution? Welfare? Reparations? I don't know.... but if the goal is to make us equal you can't just ignore the past 200 years and say "oh well the people that have the money deserve it". There needs to be some form of "spreading the wealth" if we are ever to become even close to being equal.

Good Sir,

People are not equal. That is to say, in a contest to decide which subgroup is most downtrodden, no clear winner can ever be determined. Therefore, efforts to, "level the playing field" commonly result--I should think--in resentment and injustice.

How shall we define who deserves compensation, and how much? I am certain it cannot be done.

[asimplegirl]

Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post

So what's the solution? Welfare? Reparations? I don't know.... but if the goal is to make us equal you can't just ignore the past 200 years and say "oh well the people that have the money deserve it". There needs to be some form of "spreading the wealth" if we are ever to become even close to being equal.

So, do I get reparations?

My ancestors on my mother's side were slaves, even though they were white.

Both of my maternal grandparents still picked cotton until they had a bunch of machinery out here in these parts to do it.

But, see, my dad's side's ancestors OWNED slaves, including one Booker T. Washington's mother...

Would I still be deserving?? I mean I got that slave blood in me too.

Or, no, because I am white?

Will my blond hair and blue eyes stop my justice?



See how that works? Who is the deciding factor is who gets em and who doesn't?

Would you be pissed if you didn't get them, but I did?

[Conza88]

Reparations by Walter Block
(http://mises.org/multimedia/mp3/block/block10.mp3)

:)

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Paul Krugman is like a child.

[canadian4ronpaul]

hopefully the new york times does go bankrupt. i would be very happy on that day.

[coyote_sprit]

http://theobamaforum.com/showthread.php?t=106

See a similarity?

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

http://theobamaforum.com/showthread.php?t=106

See a similarity?

http://theobamaforum.com/showthread.php?p=5407#post5407

[smithtg]

krugman is a turd.

this guys stinky shit has been showing up more in the houston chronicle because of all the big government talk that the MSM is seeping into the sheeples blood as how its going to "give them jobs". What BS. Look at what Hank's 350B did for the sheeple

His shit really smells because he does (now I know lol)

[acptulsa]

So what's the solution? Welfare? Reparations? I don't know.... but if the goal is to make us equal you can't just ignore the past 200 years and say "oh well the people that have the money deserve it". There needs to be some form of "spreading the wealth" if we are ever to become even close to being equal.

No, we can't say with a straight face that those who have the money deserve it. Not with the Federal Reserve in existence. Not with the bailouts going on. Not with executives who drove their companies right into the ground getting bonuses like they tripled the value of the stock. Those who have the money often don't deserve it. Those who work their asses off, sometimes day and night, usually don't have it.

But to leave race in the equation is to hand the bad guys a gun to shoot you with.

For decades whites in the Deep South were dirt poor. They were financially raped. Have you ever heard the song Sixteen Tons? It's the sentiments of a miner who busts his ass and the only thing he gets for it is yelled at when he doesn't do it every damned day. Here's the refrain:

Haul sixteen tons and what do you get?
You get another day older and deeper in debt.
St. Peter, don't you call me, 'cause I can't go--
I owe my soul to the Company Store!

You've heard of company stores, right? Plantation owners used them to keep slaves in servitude after the Civil War. Yeah, you can have a job. But the only shelter and the only grocer for miles is our own little community and store. Pay is three dollars a week, rent is two dollars a week, food for a family the size of yours is generally a buck and a half a week, and you can't leave if you owe us money because the sheriff will hunt you down and horsewhip you.

There's a reason they came up with this system so quickly. They had been doing the same thing to whites for years. Why did whites put up with it? Why didn't they revolt? Ever hear the Bob Dylan song Only a Pawn in Their Game?

A South politician preaches to the poor white man,
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain.
You're better than them, you been born with white skin," they explain.
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Please do excuse his use of the word 'Negro'. The lyric is as old as I am. It was never considered disrespectful until the Southerners took to mispronouncing it 'negra'.

Anyway, my point is the racist politicians use race to divide and conquer, the allegedly liberal politicians use past racism as an excuse to divide and conquer, and unless we learn who the enemy is, decide today is more important than yesterday, and remove this weapon from their arsenal, they will continue to use it to keep both 'your people' and 'my people' down.

My friend, I think your people are my people. And I'm sick of the powerful raping us all. That's why I say the past is chock full of injustice, and if we don't learn from it the future will be as well.

[BlackTerrel]

From what I've read, the black families were far better off before welfare existed. Obviously integration needed to happen, but before the government became the Dad black families were stronger, and there was a lot less 'trouble" like drugs and violence.

But spreading the wealth should be the result of the market forces, not white liberal guilt over failed social policy. When we lived in Indy, the UPS hub started running shuttles into the city because they desperately needed workers.

How are market forces going to make things equal? I'm lucky, I got out, I go to school.

Have you ever been to a black neighborhood? Most white people haven't. Most white people wouldn't be safe there. Heck it's not safe for me there, although it's safer for me than it is for you. Many Black people live in conditions that most whites can't imagine. I'm not saying it's all blacks and obviously there are whites who are poor, but the exceptions only prove the rule.

I said I don't know the solution, but the solution is NOT to sit and wait for these mythical "market forces" to come make everything better and we can all be one happy family and forget that one race screwed over another for 200 years.

[BlackTerrel]

Good Sir,

People are not equal. That is to say, in a contest to decide which subgroup is most downtrodden, no clear winner can ever be determined. Therefore, efforts to, "level the playing field" commonly result--I should think--in resentment and injustice.

How shall we define who deserves compensation, and how much? I am certain it cannot be done.

Who's the most downtrodden? You don't need to be a genius to figure it out. Go check out a prison. Go check out a black neighborhood, and if you're still alive when you leave compare it to a white neighborhood. You can't just ignore that one groups been treated like crap for two hundred years and "ok we're all equal now, let's just forget about the past".

[BlackTerrel]

So, do I get reparations?

My ancestors on my mother's side were slaves, even though they were white.

Both of my maternal grandparents still picked cotton until they had a bunch of machinery out here in these parts to do it.

But, see, my dad's side's ancestors OWNED slaves, including one Booker T. Washington's mother...

Would I still be deserving?? I mean I got that slave blood in me too.

Or, no, because I am white?

Will my blond hair and blue eyes stop my justice?



See how that works? Who is the deciding factor is who gets em and who doesn't?

Would you be pissed if you didn't get them, but I did?

I hate that argument. Irish people for instance always like to say that they were discriminated against too, so do Italians. Guess what? There's a big difference. You know how I know? Because Irish and Italians are no poorer than the average white person. Irish and Italians don't make up 90% of the people in prison. etc...

Black people got the shaft and now we/they make up the bottom rung of society... can we fix it or will it always be this way?

Me personally I don't need anything. I'm doing fine and I made my way out. But the majority (or many) will never make it out unless something is done, and it's only getting worst.

[BlackTerrel]

No, we can't say with a straight face that those who have the money deserve it. Not with the Federal Reserve in existence. Not with the bailouts going on. Not with executives who drove their companies right into the ground getting bonuses like they tripled the value of the stock. Those who have the money often don't deserve it. Those who work their asses off, sometimes day and night, usually don't have it.

But to leave race in the equation is to hand the bad guys a gun to shoot you with.

For decades whites in the Deep South were dirt poor. They were financially raped. Have you ever heard the song Sixteen Tons? It's the sentiments of a miner who busts his ass and the only thing he gets for it is yelled at when he doesn't do it every damned day. Here's the refrain:

Haul sixteen tons and what do you get?
You get another day older and deeper in debt.
St. Peter, don't you call me, 'cause I can't go--
I owe my soul to the Company Store!

You've heard of company stores, right? Plantation owners used them to keep slaves in servitude after the Civil War. Yeah, you can have a job. But the only shelter and the only grocer for miles is our own little community and store. Pay is three dollars a week, rent is two dollars a week, food for a family the size of yours is generally a buck and a half a week, and you can't leave if you owe us money because the sheriff will hunt you down and horsewhip you.

There's a reason they came up with this system so quickly. They had been doing the same thing to whites for years. Why did whites put up with it? Why didn't they revolt? Ever hear the Bob Dylan song Only a Pawn in Their Game?

A South politician preaches to the poor white man,
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain.
You're better than them, you been born with white skin," they explain.
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Please do excuse his use of the word 'Negro'. The lyric is as old as I am. It was never considered disrespectful until the Southerners took to mispronouncing it 'negra'.

Anyway, my point is the racist politicians use race to divide and conquer, the allegedly liberal politicians use past racism as an excuse to divide and conquer, and unless we learn who the enemy is, decide today is more important than yesterday, and remove this weapon from their arsenal, they will continue to use it to keep both 'your people' and 'my people' down.

My friend, I think your people are my people. And I'm sick of the powerful raping us all. That's why I say the past is chock full of injustice, and if we don't learn from it the future will be as well.

First of all I really like your post so thank you. I think you have a very well stated post.

Yes there are poor white people. There are rich black people. I have lived many years in the South and I have seen both. But the fact that blacks in this country are getting the shaft is something that cannot be denied.

[AutoDas]

How are market forces going to make things equal? I'm lucky, I got out, I go to school.

Have you ever been to a black neighborhood? Most white people haven't. Most white people wouldn't be safe there. Heck it's not safe for me there, although it's safer for me than it is for you. Many Black people live in conditions that most whites can't imagine. I'm not saying it's all blacks and obviously there are whites who are poor, but the exceptions only prove the rule.

I said I don't know the solution, but the solution is NOT to sit and wait for these mythical "market forces" to come make everything better and we can all be one happy family and forget that one race screwed over another for 200 years.

This is the most racist thing I've come across in this thread.

[xd9fan]

and I thought the Nazi propaganda was full of shit......

perpare for war boys.....its coming
maybe it needs to happen in my lifetime

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

First of all I really like your post so thank you. I think you have a very well stated post.

Yes there are poor white people. There are rich black people. I have lived many years in the South and I have seen both. But the fact that blacks in this country are getting the shaft is something that cannot be denied.Blacks are shafted mainly due to the drug war. They've been wrecked by the same mystical nanny government that they always vote for with such overwhelming solidarity.

You have no one but yourselves to blame, but that's a fact you don't want to face, is it? It's always easier to pass the buck

[acptulsa]

But the fact that blacks in this country are getting the shaft is something that cannot be denied.

I certainly won't. I only say you're not alone. Ever visit an Indian reservation? The natives have something in common with you--their ancestors also didn't come here of their own free will.

My kingdom for a magic wand of justice...

[acptulsa]

You have no one but yourselves to blame, but that's a fact you don't want to face, is it? It's always easier to pass the buck

Dude. You are so far from the ground on this one that your argument reeks of Ivory Towers. How the hell can you argue that it's no harder to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps when you start life in a deep hole?

Ever see the movie Ryan's War? Ever consider what it would be like to see Nazi prisoners of war eating in a diner in your own home town that would never, ever serve you?

[asimplegirl]

Who's the most downtrodden? You don't need to be a genius to figure it out. Go check out a prison. Go check out a black neighborhood, and if you're still alive when you leave compare it to a white neighborhood. You can't just ignore that one groups been treated like crap for two hundred years and "ok we're all equal now, let's just forget about the past".

The Oglala Lakota Sioux are the most downtrodden... Here are some statistics about where my grampa grew up on the reservation:


The statistics are mind-numbing: While the rest of America frets over a recession that has driven unemployment rates from 4 percent up to 6 percent, Pine Ridge's unemployment rate is estimated to be between 60 and 80 percent -- and it's been that way for as long as anyone can remember. The closest the rest of the country has ever gotten was 25 percent unemployment, during the Great Depression.


With the poverty come staggering rates of homelessness, alcoholism, disease, drug abuse, murders, suicide, infant mortality, teen-age pregnancy and school dropouts. Average life expectancy here is lower than in Bangladesh -- 48 for men and 52 for women.


In 1868, the U.S. government signed a treaty at Fort Laramie, Wyo., promising the Lakota a 60-million acre reservation stretching from the Missouri River in the east to the Bighorn Mountains in the west, in an effort to end long-running hostilities between the Lakota and white settlers. But the Great Sioux Reservation would be diminished and fragmented by a series of treaty violations on the part of the U.S. government. Today, Pine Ridge is one of its nine remnants, scattered across South Dakota.


Most notoriously, Congress in 1877 confiscated the Black Hills in western South Dakota, previously undisputed Lakota territory, three years after an expedition led by Gen. George Custer had found gold there.

The gold discovery sparked further encroachment by white prospectors, leading to the last Indian wars, in which warriors led by Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse defeated Custer's troops at the Battle of Little Bighorn. The Indian victory was short-lived; in the years that followed, reinforced federal troops forced the Lakota into submission.

On Dec. 29, 1890, the 7th U.S. Cavalry attacked a group of Lakota encamped at Wounded Knee in what would become the last armed engagement of the Indian wars and one of the most infamous atrocities in American history. The troops massacred an estimated 150 to 300 men, women and children. Today, the cemetery on a hill at Wounded Knee is a top tourist destination at Pine Ridge.

During many of the following decades, the U.S. government pursued policies aimed at assimilating Indians into white society, by outlawing certain religious ceremonies and sending Indians to schools where they were banned from speaking their native languages.

Through treaties and other legal arrangements, the federal government agreed to help Indians with monetary aid, education, health care and other assistance, as compensation for taking their land. But the government has shirked its obligations by severely shortchanging Indian programs, according to a recent report by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.


Recent reports vary but many point out that the median income on the Pine Ridge Reservation is approximately $2,600 to $3,500 per year.


According to 2006 resources, about 97% of the population lives below Federal poverty levels.


Rapid City, South Dakota is the nearest town of size (population approximately 57,700) for those who can travel to find work. It is located 120 miles from the Reservation. The nearest large city to Pine Ridge is Denver, Colorado located some 350 miles away.

Some figures state that the life expectancy on the Reservation is 48 years old for men and 52 for women. Other reports state that the average life expectancy on the Reservation is 45 years old. These statistics are far from the 77.5 years of age life expectancy average found in the United States as a whole. According to current USDA Rural Development documents, the Lakota have the lowest life expectancy of any group in America.


Teenage suicide rate on the Pine Ridge Reservation is 150% higher than the U.S. national average for this age group.

The infant mortality rate is the highest on this continent and is about 300% higher than the U.S. national average.

The rate of diabetes on the Reservation is reported to be 800% higher than the U.S. national average.

The tuberculosis rate on the Pine Ridge Reservation is approximately 800% higher than the U.S. national average.

Cervical cancer is 500% higher than the U.S. national average.

It is reported that at least 60% of the homes on the Pine Ridge Reservation are infested with Black Mold, Stachybotrys. This infestation causes an often-fatal condition with infants, children, elderly, those with damaged immune systems, and those with lung and pulmonary conditions at the highest risk. Exposure to this mold can cause hemorrhaging of the lungs and brain as well as cancer.

School drop-out rate is over 70%.

According to a Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) report, the Pine Ridge Reservation schools are in the bottom 10% of school funding by U.S. Department of Education and the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Teacher turnover is 800% that of the U.S. national average

In a recent case study, the Tribal Council estimated a need for at least 4,000 new homes in order to combat the homeless situation.

There is an estimated average of 17 people living in each family home (a home which may only have two to three rooms). Some larger homes, built for 6 to 8 people, have up to 30 people living in them.

Over 33% of the Reservation homes lack basic water and sewage systems as well as electricity.

Many residents must carry (often contaminated) water from the local rivers daily for their personal needs.

Periodically, Reservation residents are found dead from hypothermia (freezing).

It is reported that at least 60% of the homes on the Pine Ridge Reservation need to be burned to the ground and replaced with new housing due to infestation of the potentially-fatal Black Mold, Stachybotrys. There is no insurance or government program to assist families in replacing their homes.

Federal and tribal heat assistance programs (such as LLEAP) are limited by their funding. In the winter of 2005-2006, the average one-time only payment to a family was said to be approximately $250-$300 to cover the entire winter. For many, that amount did not even fill their propane heating tanks one time.

There is no public transportation available on the Reservation.

The death rate from alcohol-related problems on the Reservation is 300% higher than the remaining US population.

Scientific studies show that the High Plains/Oglala Aquifer which begins underneath the Pine Ridge Reservation is predicted to run dry in less than 30 years due to commercial interest use and dryland farming in numerous states south of the Reservation. This critical North American underground water resource is not renewable at anything near the present consumption rate. The recent years of drought have simply accelerated the problem.


Please, Mr. Black man, may we please talk about the downtrodden, the poor, the needy?

The federal government promised ages ago to fix these problems with the sale of tribal land, but has yet to do anything but start wars to take more.

Please, oh please, let's discuss the downtrodden.

[acptulsa]

The Oglala Lakota Sioux are the most downtrodden... Here are some statistics about where my grampa grew up on the reservation...

Am I remembering right that the correct word in your grandpa's tongue for what I want to say is 'aho'?

Terrill (and anyone else who has soul enough to care), may I teach you a Cherokee phrase? Google 'tsa-la-gi'.

There has been injustice. They are using the past to ensure that injustice continues into the future. They prefer to preserve the status quo. I really feel that we will never all have equal opportunity until bygones are bygones. I do admit that we may not have come far enough to be able to take that step yet. Even so, the more equality we exercise now, the fewer injustices there will be for the dividers and conquerers of the future to use against our progeny.

[Mesogen]

Paul Krugman: moron and propagandist.

Correction: Nobel Prize Winning moron and propagandist.



And how do you like this?

So the reign of George W. Bush, the first true Southern Republican president since Reconstruction
HA HA ! George W. Bush is from Connecticut.


But America in 1993 was a very different country — not just a country that had yet to see what happens when conservatives control all three branches of government
HA! Conservatives! HA!

[BlackTerrel]

Blacks are shafted mainly due to the drug war. They've been wrecked by the same mystical nanny government that they always vote for with such overwhelming solidarity.

You have no one but yourselves to blame, but that's a fact you don't want to face, is it? It's always easier to pass the buck

Blacks are a little over 10% of the population, we don't decide who gets elected. Aside from that, who has the alternative been?

[BlackTerrel]

The Oglala Lakota Sioux are the most downtrodden... Here are some statistics about where my grampa grew up on the reservation:

Please, Mr. Black man, may we please talk about the downtrodden, the poor, the needy?

The federal government promised ages ago to fix these problems with the sale of tribal land, but has yet to do anything but start wars to take more.

Please, oh please, let's discuss the downtrodden.

I don't disagree with you at all. The Native Americans deserve better.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Who's the most downtrodden? You don't need to be a genius to figure it out. Go check out a prison. Go check out a black neighborhood, and if you're still alive when you leave compare it to a white neighborhood. You can't just ignore that one groups been treated like crap for two hundred years and "ok we're all equal now, let's just forget about the past".

What is it that you want? The following can be noted:

1.) In this world there has been injustice.
2.) As has been demonstrated by the poster who revealed many facts about particular Native Americans, many subgroups have been horribly downtrodden.
3.) No law which the federal government can enact will correct the past.

[BlackTerrel]

What is it that you want? The following can be noted:

1.) In this world there has been injustice.
2.) As has been demonstrated by the poster who revealed many facts about particular Native Americans, many subgroups have been horribly downtrodden.
3.) No law which the federal government can enact will correct the past.

So what is the outcome - that Native Americans continue to live in abject poverty on reservations, that blacks neighborhoods remain dangerous areas where no one wants to live and make up 90% of the prison population? We should just sit by and do nothing?

One poster already suggested an end to the "war on drugs". I would also be in favor of higher taxes for rich Wall Street parasites that would be redistributed among poor inner city families (where almost everyone is black, but any race could be welcome to it) where the parent works two jobs and still can't make ends meet.

[asimplegirl]

So what is the outcome - that Native Americans continue to live in abject poverty on reservations, that blacks neighborhoods remain dangerous areas where no one wants to live and make up 90% of the prison population? We should just sit by and do nothing?

One poster already suggested an end to the "war on drugs". I would also be in favor of higher taxes for rich Wall Street parasites that would be redistributed among poor inner city families (where almost everyone is black, but any race could be welcome to it) where the parent works two jobs and still can't make ends meet.

I would not support higher taxes on ANYONE to give money TO ANYONE ELSE. That is wrong.

What I would support is donations being given to churches to redistribute money to the needy..and I have lived off of the government nearly since birth... I don't want someone else's money to be forced out of their hands and into mine. That's thievery.

[BlackTerrel]

I would not support higher taxes on ANYONE to give money TO ANYONE ELSE. That is wrong.

What I would support is donations being given to churches to redistribute money to the needy..and I have lived off of the government nearly since birth... I don't want someone else's money to be forced out of their hands and into mine. That's thievery.

What if the people with the money got their money through dishonest means to begin with... that's thievery. Stealing land from Indians - that's thievery. Having blacks as slaves - that's thievery.

Spreading money from the haves to the have nots is kinda Robin Hood thievery (IE hero) isn't it?

[asimplegirl]

No, slavery wasn't thievery then. The slaves were bought from slave owners in Africa. That is called consumerism, not thievery. Remember we are not talking right and wrong, we are talking thievery.

I don't agree with the Robin Hood theory at all. I think you should get what you get yourself..no one else's money is your's. NO MATTER HOW THEY GOT IT, it doesn't make it any better for you to take it.

[The_Orlonater]

So what is the outcome - that Native Americans continue to live in abject poverty on reservations, that blacks neighborhoods remain dangerous areas where no one wants to live and make up 90% of the prison population? We should just sit by and do nothing?

One poster already suggested an end to the "war on drugs". I would also be in favor of higher taxes for rich Wall Street parasites that would be redistributed among poor inner city families (where almost everyone is black, but any race could be welcome to it) where the parent works two jobs and still can't make ends meet.

Your marxist utopian arguments are nothing new and have been tried. The cure for poverty is an inflation free capitalist society.

[The_Orlonater]

Then the Mexicans showed up, though. Messed it all up. If only we had enforced out borders....

Those evil wetbacks! :rolleyes:

[BlackTerrel]

No, slavery wasn't thievery then. The slaves were bought from slave owners in Africa. That is called consumerism, not thievery. Remember we are not talking right and wrong, we are talking thievery.

Are you kidding me right now? :rolleyes:


I don't agree with the Robin Hood theory at all. I think you should get what you get yourself..no one else's money is your's. NO MATTER HOW THEY GOT IT, it doesn't make it any better for you to take it.

So these Wall Street hustlers and people who live off inheritance from ten generations ago (that was probably got by ill means) get to live the life while most of us work our asses off for pennies? That's fair? The current distribution of wealth isn't fair.

[john_anderson_ii]

This article is so well inscribed, and so well researched that is has no room for comments. (Yeah, there is no public comments section)

The masses are too stupid, repressed or afraid to comment on it's shortcomings. Yeah, that's about right for the NYT, the liberal mouthpiece that everyone knows them to be. You know, I was going to comment on how Mr. Bush's "War on Terrorism" prevented attacks since the 1986 bombing of the WTC vice the absence of terror attacks on U.S. soil before 9/11.


Anyway this column is a total liberal mouthpiece, don't believe it will make your life any more invaded or less controlled.

[The_Orlonater]

Are you kidding me right now? :rolleyes:



So these Wall Street hustlers and people who live off inheritance from ten generations ago (that was probably got by ill means) get to live the life while most of us work our asses off for pennies? That's fair? The current distribution of wealth isn't fair.

Gun point is fairer.

[The_Orlonater]

Blacks are a little over 10% of the population, we don't decide who gets elected. Aside from that, who has the alternative been?

Yeah, we should have collective groups of people taking turns running our lives.

[The_Orlonater]

What if the people with the money got their money through dishonest means to begin with... that's thievery. Stealing land from Indians - that's thievery. Having blacks as slaves - that's thievery.

Spreading money from the haves to the have nots is kinda Robin Hood thievery (IE hero) isn't it?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Danke]

... that blacks neighborhoods remain dangerous areas where no one wants to live and make up 90% of the prison population?


Where did you get that statistic?

[asimplegirl]

If that stat is true, I think it says something about black folks that he isn't intending, but is proving.

[devil21]

Are you kidding me right now? :rolleyes:


Pardon me, but wasn't it your fellow AFRICANS that sold your people into the slave trade in the first place? It sure wasn't rich white plantation owners running around the shores of West Africa with nets and shackles. When are you planning on petitioning Liberia for their share of your reparations???



So these Wall Street hustlers and people who live off inheritance from ten generations ago (that was probably got by ill means) get to live the life while most of us work our asses off for pennies? That's fair? The current distribution of wealth isn't fair.

*Life* isnt fair. Get used to it. You're young and still have a lot of living and learning to do. It doesn't get any easier brother! I doubt any of us posting on this thread are rolling in cash, driving Bentleys, and eating steak and lobster every night. Socialism won't erase the past and there's no evidence that it will bring racial and economic equality. Socialism only makes EVERYONE miserable. Say your tax suggestion was implemented and the rich were taxed to the hilt and it given directly to poor minorities. What does that accomplish for the poor people and more importantly, for society as a whole? Nothing. It just gives a higher standard of living to those that did not earn it. Besides, the problem isn't money IMHO. It's motivation. Do you deny that many of the people in your "scary" neighborhood are collecting welfare and food stamps while sitting at home unemployed right now? You'll probably just call that a racist stereotype but as I've pointed out to you in other threads, all stereotypes have their roots in fact. I agree that minorities have a tougher time, Im not debating that. But for people to "rise up", they must make it a priority for themselves *first*. As much as I disagree with Obama's politics, Im genuinely hoping that his success will MOTIVATE young black boys and girls to aspire to something higher than welfare checks and prison bids. No one can fix your "scary' neighborhood except the people that live there.

It's really easy to sit back and blame everyone else for the ills of society instead of looking inward and asking "What can I do to help?". Campaigning for "free money" isn't going to help anyone in the long run. And if that's your solution, maybe you should start with Bob Johnson, Kobe Bryant, and Jay-Z.

[Danke]

Pardon me, but wasn't it your fellow AFRICANS that sold your people into the slave trade in the first place? It sure wasn't rich white plantation owners running around the shores of West Africa with nets and shackles. When are you planning on petitioning Liberia for their share of your reparations???



*Life* isnt fair. Get used to it. You're young and still have a lot of living and learning to do. It doesn't get any easier brother! I doubt any of us posting on this thread are rolling in cash, driving Bentleys, and eating steak and lobster every night. Socialism won't erase the past and there's no evidence that it will bring racial and economic equality. Socialism only makes EVERYONE miserable. Say your tax suggestion was implemented and the rich were taxed to the hilt and it given directly to poor minorities. What does that accomplish for the poor people and more importantly, for society as a whole? Nothing. It just gives a higher standard of living to those that did not earn it. Besides, the problem isn't money IMHO. It's motivation. Do you deny that many of the people in your "scary" neighborhood are collecting welfare and food stamps while sitting at home unemployed right now? You'll probably just call that a racist stereotype but as I've pointed out to you in other threads, all stereotypes have their roots in fact. I agree that minorities have a tougher time, Im not debating that. But for people to "rise up", they must make it a priority for themselves *first*. As much as I disagree with Obama's politics, Im genuinely hoping that his success will MOTIVATE young black boys and girls to aspire to something higher than welfare checks and prison bids. No one can fix your "scary' neighborhood except the people that live there.

It's really easy to sit back and blame everyone else for the ills of society instead of looking inward and asking "What can I do to help?". Campaigning for "free money" isn't going to help anyone in the long run. And if that's your solution, maybe you should start with Bob Johnson, Kobe Bryant, and Jay-Z.

Nice post. Well articulated.

[BlackTerrel]

If that stat is true, I think it says something about black folks that he isn't intending, but is proving.

I mean 90% to say a lot. Is it 90%, is it 80%, is it 70%. It's far more than our proportion of the population. I have no desire to hide the reality that everyone knows.

As far it saying something about black people that "I'm proving" that's your interpretation and racism if you want to believe it. I think the numbers are skewed because of racism both past and present, and the inequalities they create. Why do you believe it is?

[BlackTerrel]

Pardon me, but wasn't it your fellow AFRICANS that sold your people into the slave trade in the first place? It sure wasn't rich white plantation owners running around the shores of West Africa with nets and shackles. When are you planning on petitioning Liberia for their share of your reparations???

Does it matter? "Oh they messed up so we can mess up". The simple fact is there are inequalities that exist today because of racism. You can ignore it, but that only makes the problem worse.


*Life* isnt fair. Get used to it. You're young and still have a lot of living and learning to do. It doesn't get any easier brother! I doubt any of us posting on this thread are rolling in cash, driving Bentleys, and eating steak and lobster every night. Socialism won't erase the past and there's no evidence that it will bring racial and economic equality.

I'm not rich, but I'm in school and doing ok. I'm doing fine, I'm well educated and it's not me I'm worried about. But right now you have A LOT of black people living in situations where it's impossible to escape from. It's a cycle that never ends...We can either have this perpetuate indefinitely and become a country like Mexico where you have a small percentage of the population that holds all the money and lives in small gated communities (most of them are white) or we can try to create a future where everyone has the same opportunities to pursue the American dream. Don't get me wrong, I effing love this country and wouldn't want to be anywhere else. I don't believe that rich people have a right to hold onto all their money just because they were born rich or were able to swindle some people out of it.


It's really easy to sit back and blame everyone else for the ills of society instead of looking inward and asking "What can I do to help?". Campaigning for "free money" isn't going to help anyone in the long run. And if that's your solution, maybe you should start with Bob Johnson, Kobe Bryant, and Jay-Z.

I don't just sit and blame, I actually take an interest in changing things. As for Kobe and Jay-Z they actually earned their money. They didn't swindle or inherit it from slave owners 10 generations ago.

[AutoDas]

Black Terrel stop with the generalizations that all white men have swindled or inherited their money. Black people are not entitled to anything that white people aren't.

[BlackTerrel]

Black Terrel stop with the generalizations that all white men have swindled or inherited their money.

If you can point to where I said that I'll leave this forum with my tail between my legs and never come back.

I'm saying a lot of the disparities between rich and poor is due to either past discrimination or current swindling. I don't hate rich people, heck I hope to be rich one day (and have faith that I will be). In fact I admire people that have earned their money honestly and more power to them.

If/When I am rich I won't have a problem paying a little more taxes to help those less fortunate either.

[werdd]

If you can point to where I said that I'll leave this forum with my tail between my legs and never come back.

I'm saying a lot of the disparities between rich and poor is due to either past discrimination or current swindling. I don't hate rich people, heck I hope to be rich one day (and have faith that I will be). In fact I admire people that have earned their money honestly and more power to them.

If/When I am rich I won't have a problem paying a little more taxes to help those less fortunate either.

I for one wish we would of left you all in africa.

[tremendoustie]

If you can point to where I said that I'll leave this forum with my tail between my legs and never come back.

I'm saying a lot of the disparities between rich and poor is due to either past discrimination or current swindling. I don't hate rich people, heck I hope to be rich one day (and have faith that I will be). In fact I admire people that have earned their money honestly and more power to them.

If/When I am rich I won't have a problem paying a little more taxes to help those less fortunate either.

That is good that you won't mind paying taxes. I myself would prefer to donate my money to private charity, since I find that it is more effective and efficient. I assume you will not send men with guns to my door if I do not agree with your sentiments regarding taxation?

Or, instead of saying you don't mind paying extra, are you saying you don't mind using violence to force others to pay extra?

The treatment of blacks through most of this country's history was shameful, and there are many remaining problems due to slavery and jim crow laws. After all, it is only a generation since we had government forced segregation.

But, two wrongs do not make a right. Let us finally turn over a new leaf, and truly judge people not on the color of their skin, but the content of their character. We should not treat people differently because of their skin color personally, at work, or under the law. Let's not teach our kids to discriminate in any way.

[tremendoustie]

I for one wish we would of left you all in africa.

Of course I also wish that there were never slavery, but I don't like the racist sounding undertones of your statement. "You all" is a very collectivist phrase.

[devil21]

Does it matter? "Oh they messed up so we can mess up". The simple fact is there are inequalities that exist today because of racism. You can ignore it, but that only makes the problem worse.

It absolutely matters. You are leaning on the meme that the "rich white man" is the cause of all the black man's struggles. There is blame to be spread around amongst more than just those you are singling out. Historical selectiveness I guess it would be called.



I'm not rich, but I'm in school and doing ok. I'm doing fine, I'm well educated and it's not me I'm worried about. But right now you have A LOT of black people living in situations where it's impossible to escape from. It's a cycle that never ends...We can either have this perpetuate indefinitely and become a country like Mexico where you have a small percentage of the population that holds all the money and lives in small gated communities (most of them are white) or we can try to create a future where everyone has the same opportunities to pursue the American dream. Don't get me wrong, I effing love this country and wouldn't want to be anywhere else. I don't believe that rich people have a right to hold onto all their money just because they were born rich or were able to swindle some people out of it.

Good, keep it up with your schooling and aspirations. But I must ask, what are you doing to help motivate your people to be more like you instead of being part of that "90%" figure (that you pulled out of your ass btw)?
Sure, there is some "old money" in this country but I hope you don't seriously believe that all rich white people got their money from slavery and deception 10 generations ago. If so, I'd appreciate it if you would back that up with facts and evidence. Besides, the inflation of the currency since the early 1900's would prove that most people holding US dollars gained them well after slavery was abolished.
Sidenote: It's funny that you railed against me and called me all manner of names (saying Im racist) for singling out Zionist Jews as a big cause of America's problems in other threads, yet you sit here singling out White People as the cause of black people's problems. But somehow my comments are racist and yours arent :rolleyes:



I don't just sit and blame, I actually take an interest in changing things. As for Kobe and Jay-Z they actually earned their money. They didn't swindle or inherit it from slave owners 10 generations ago.

Oh....so you mean taxing only WHITE PEOPLE. Now THAT is racist.

[BlackTerrel]

I for one wish we would of left you all in africa.

Thanks bro. I'm glad you're out in the open about it. Unfortunately for you we're here now. We have a black president and soon white will be a minority. Sucks don't it :D

[BlackTerrel]

That is good that you won't mind paying taxes. I myself would prefer to donate my money to private charity, since I find that it is more effective and efficient. I assume you will not send men with guns to my door if I do not agree with your sentiments regarding taxation?

Paying taxes is the law. I will not send men with guns, but the government might.


The treatment of blacks through most of this country's history was shameful, and there are many remaining problems due to slavery and jim crow laws. After all, it is only a generation since we had government forced segregation.

But, two wrongs do not make a right. Let us finally turn over a new leaf, and truly judge people not on the color of their skin, but the content of their character. We should not treat people differently because of their skin color personally, at work, or under the law. Let's not teach our kids to discriminate in any way.

I would be very happy with this. However we can't pretend that past discrimination didn't exist or that current discrimination doesn't. As has been said before, white groups (Italians, Scottish, Irish, Italians, Jews, Mormons etc.) have also been discriminated against in the past but those groups are now all on par with the majority. When blacks reach that level then we will be equal, but until that point we can't pretend like everything's cool and we just forget what happened in the past.

About 1 in 10 black men are in prison. How can that be good for the United States?

[BlackTerrel]

It absolutely matters. You are leaning on the meme that the "rich white man" is the cause of all the black man's struggles. There is blame to be spread around amongst more than just those you are singling out. Historical selectiveness I guess it would be called.

I'm saying take a look at the spread of wealth in this country. Why do you think whites are so much more well off than blacks (on average)? Why are blacks arrested at far higher numbers than whites? Etc.... Is it because whites are super smart or is it because the system was/is tilted in their favor?


Good, keep it up with your schooling and aspirations. But I must ask, what are you doing to help motivate your people to be more like you instead of being part of that "90%" figure (that you pulled out of your ass btw)?

I'm actually doing a lot. You'd be surprised. I volunteer at an inner city school near where I live. I have white friends that do the same. As for the 90% figure you're right I just made it up. I googled it and came up with 50%, considering blacks are 13% of the population that's still rather high. The exact numbers are meaningless, I said 90% to mean "a big number" but I apologize for misleading you.


Sure, there is some "old money" in this country but I hope you don't seriously believe that all rich white people got their money from slavery and deception 10 generations ago. If so, I'd appreciate it if you would back that up with facts and evidence. Besides, the inflation of the currency since the early 1900's would prove that most people holding US dollars gained them well after slavery was abolished.

I would never say all rich white people. I admire a lot of white people, Dr. Paul is just one of them. I had an opportunity to hear Steve Jobs speak and even have lunch with him once. The man is briliant and deserves everything he has, there are millions more who are in the same boat as he.


Sidenote: It's funny that you railed against me and called me all manner of names (saying Im racist) for singling out Zionist Jews as a big cause of America's problems in other threads, yet you sit here singling out White People as the cause of black people's problems. But somehow my comments are racist and yours arent :rolleyes:

Oh that was you? That explains a bit.... I am not whining about whites. I am saying that if rich people (who are majority white) pay more taxes to help the poor (who are disproportionately black and have been opressed) I am all for it. I'd be all for rich Zionist Jews paying more taxes too. I don't engage in ridiculous conspiracy theories or blame whites for all my ills, I admire many many white people. Another difference is that I would be ashamed to be called a racist as I see it one of the worst things that anyone could be, if I recall correctly you said that you saw being called anti-semitic as a badge of honor - that tells me all I need to know really.


Oh....so you mean taxing only WHITE PEOPLE. Now THAT is racist.

I am all for rich black people paying back as well.

[Dieseler]

..

[asimplegirl]

Whats the supposed population percentage of blacks in America?

What percentage of that population should be made rich to even the playing field?

Do you think that percentage made rich would do anything to enrich the rest of the population that were not made rich without coercion of law?

Somebody here is hung up on a black white thing here and needs to get a fucking grip on reality. The poor will always be with you whether you like it or not. Unfortunately the fucking stupid will be to.

Unfortunately, some don't notice that even the blacks in the ghettos are rich to some whites in the country. Hell, I would give anything almost to have as much income come in as some of those folks.

To have not had to experience hunger, cold, heat, to never have to have been homeless, or scrub toilets or pick peas as a small child to get five buck for my mom to buy eggs and bread for us to live on.

To not have to steal to be able to give my little brother money to not feel ike he was an outsider as a little boy at school. To not have to share bath water with everyone in my family as a kid up until college since my parents could not afford to pay for us to use more water.

Some people just need to learn to be grateful, and get the hell with the program. It sucks for people in every color to even wake up sometimes. It did for me for a long time.

[devil21]

I'm saying take a look at the spread of wealth in this country. Why do you think whites are so much more well off than blacks (on average)? Why are blacks arrested at far higher numbers than whites? Etc.... Is it because whites are super smart or is it because the system was/is tilted in their favor?

Well, I could start by acknowledging that black fathers tend to disappear from their children's lives more often than white fathers, proportionately. I think that's a pretty big problem the black community has in molding the young people, especially young males. That would also explain your arrest differential. But that simply ignores whether blacks actually commit more crimes? If they do, then they do and they get arrested more for it. The drug war (which we ALL agree should be shitcanned) is a big reason for that.



I'm actually doing a lot. You'd be surprised. I volunteer at an inner city school near where I live. I have white friends that do the same. As for the 90% figure you're right I just made it up. I googled it and came up with 50%, considering blacks are 13% of the population that's still rather high. The exact numbers are meaningless, I said 90% to mean "a big number" but I apologize for misleading you.

Good, Im genuinely glad to hear that. Keep it up. I do acknowledge that blacks get longer sentences than whites on average. But that brings up many variables in the justice system (records, sentencing guidelines, etc) that is for another discussion.



Oh that was you? That explains a bit.... I am not whining about whites. I am saying that if rich people (who are majority white) pay more taxes to help the poor (who are disproportionately black and have been opressed) I am all for it. I'd be all for rich Zionist Jews paying more taxes too. I don't engage in ridiculous conspiracy theories or blame whites for all my ills, I admire many many white people. Another difference is that I would be ashamed to be called a racist as I see it one of the worst things that anyone could be, if I recall correctly you said that you saw being called anti-semitic as a badge of honor - that tells me all I need to know really.

Yep, that was me. So I guess you think racism only happens when someone else is doing it? Singling out white people for the modern struggles of blacks is racism IMHO. I never made anybody pick cotton. You never picked cotton. So why should I pay you for something that neither of us had anything to do with? And you also continue to take my "anti-semite" comment out of context. Im sure that's intentional. Surely a smart young man like yourself can understand nuance. But I ask again....you claim to admire RP and support his policies, yet you are here advocating socialism in its purest form, which RP is strictly against. Seems a little strange, no?



I am all for rich black people paying back as well.

Your previous post exposes your real feelings. Blacks "earned it" therefore should not pay higher taxes, while whites that "stole it" should. Racism and socialism all wrapped up in a neat little package.

[acptulsa]

Firstly, this talk about this group or that group and fatherless children in households without a man--this isn't limited to a race, but is common among the poor. Thank Lyndon Baines Johnson and his so-called Great Society. The combination of federal money thrown, federal taxes up enough that charity could no longer make up the difference, and one size fits all regulations on the money 'disincentivized' the nuclear family as defined by generations. A good way to keep the poor poor, eh? Not the thing the average liberal would prefer to point to, but...

And the prisons? Ever check on the difference in sentencing guidelines between Dubya's preferred powdered cocaine and crack? No, we haven't leveled the playing field yet.


I for one wish we would of left you all in africa.

Would have suited them just fine at the time. They'd have liked nothing better. And you'd almost certainly be from a long line of cotton pickers. So spare us your cotton pickin' daydreams, because they don't help for $#!+.

[Kraig]

How are market forces going to make things equal? I'm lucky, I got out, I go to school.

Have you ever been to a black neighborhood? Most white people haven't. Most white people wouldn't be safe there. Heck it's not safe for me there, although it's safer for me than it is for you. Many Black people live in conditions that most whites can't imagine. I'm not saying it's all blacks and obviously there are whites who are poor, but the exceptions only prove the rule.

I said I don't know the solution, but the solution is NOT to sit and wait for these mythical "market forces" to come make everything better and we can all be one happy family and forget that one race screwed over another for 200 years.

Give me a fucking break, yes I have been to so called "black neighborhoods", yes the living conditions are poor and filthy as shit. You know what else? Every other guy you run into is either a crackhead or selling dope. This is where you go to find drugs if you are desperate enough, you will always find them if you don't get mugged first. These are communities where the majority just doesn't give a fuck, where the majority gave up on life and would rather be high 24/7 than work for something better. Sure you can try to blame that on how disadvantaged black people are, but most if it comes down to just giving up and the pathetic parenting that follows. When I was in middle school nearly all of my black friends had either no father or a shit head dope dealer who would beat them for a father. Hmmm, I wonder where that is going to lead? By the time I had graduated from high school most of them where selling drugs, not just on the side or for fun, but "full time" like they could live off it. Well, that is the ones who had not already been fucked over by the judicial system and where spending their lives in jail.

By no means am I saying that black people are inherently stupid and lazy and that's why they live this way, but when you give up on life and pass that mentality on to your children it creates a cycle that is very difficult to stop. I even like to enjoy some illegal drugs from time to time, but regardless of how unfair you think the laws are, you have to deal with the reality of the situation and not overdue it and therefore fuck yourself with the consequences. If all of these people in these so called "black neighborhoods" actually started trying at life, got a job and stuck to it, took a fucking shower everyday, cleaned up their living residence, it would go a long way - but it wouldn't happen over night. You know what else would really help? Ending the war on drugs.

But if you're the one in this situation you can't blame your parents, you can't blame the drug laws and you can't blame society - not if you want it to ever get better for you. Sure if you want to just live in your shit hole and die your slow pathetic death, then crying and whining and blaming other people will suit you just fine. Everyone has days where life seems horrible and they feel like they would rather not wake up again, those who succeed take responsibility for their own failures - regardless of whatever unjust circumstances caused them - and those who fail blame others.

There are poor people all over the world, many much worse than ANYTHING in the USA. Why it only becomes a problem for some people when they can assign a racial profile to it HAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE BEYOND ME. Complete fucking idiocy and departure from reason, that's exactly what your collective thinking is.

And there is one thing that is NOT the solution and NEVER will be, and that is LOOTING my or anyone's hard working ass through your bullshit taxes to give it to your bullshit racial groups or ANYONE who has not earned it. They ONLY thing that will will accomplish is degrading our country further to the put where it is as bad as so called 3rd world countries that we are still better off than, BY A RAPIDLY DECREASING MARGIN.

[acptulsa]

They ONLY thing that will will accomplish is degrading our country further to the put where it is as bad as so called 3rd world countries that we are still better off than, BY A RAPIDLY DECREASING MARGIN.

Well, that could do quite a lot to level the playing field. Could also let us know that we're all Americans, we're all in this together, and our common enemy isn't so easy to identify that all you have to do is check skin color.

I'm ready for anything that will short-circuit their attempts to keep us divided by keeping us looking back at a time when we truly were divided, and lead us to look forward instead. Even if it's hard times and the distraction of figuring out where our next meal is coming from. Not fun, but so very elemental. Such a good way to clear out the b.s.

Now, I don't want to be accused of saying one race or another is a bunch of abused children, or like a bunch of abused children, because I don't believe that. But victims of child abuse do offer a useful lesson here, because they must forgive their abusers before they can move forward. Now, their abusers don't deserve this forgiveness. They don't. But unless the victim takes this step and loses the anger, the victim remains a victim and his or her life continues to be dominated and ruined by the perpetrator. Only genuine forgiveness can enable a person to turn away from the past and live their life.

The slave owners are all dead. So are the white abolitionists who fought and died in Kansas and elsewhere to end slavery because it was just wrong. That's right, folks--before you start stereotyping us pale people, google John Brown. Now, they fought, slavery's over, they're all dead, and we can let this issue continue to divide us against each other so tptb can control us or we can confirm our brotherhood and go gig the people who are screwing all of us. Our choice.

[tremendoustie]

Paying taxes is the law. I will not send men with guns, but the government might.


If you support the government sending thugs to my door to take my money, and vote for people who will do it, you are morally responsible.

This is what I said:


But, two wrongs do not make a right. Let us finally turn over a new leaf, and truly judge people not on the color of their skin, but the content of their character. We should not treat people differently because of their skin color personally, at work, or under the law. Let's not teach our kids to discriminate in any way.


And this is what you said in response:



I would be very happy with this. However we can't pretend that past discrimination didn't exist or that current discrimination doesn't. As has been said before, white groups (Italians, Scottish, Irish, Italians, Jews, Mormons etc.) have also been discriminated against in the past but those groups are now all on par with the majority. When blacks reach that level then we will be equal, but until that point we can't pretend like everything's cool and we just forget what happened in the past.


I do not want to pretend people never did evil things in the past, I want to stop doing the evil. And the evil is this: Treating people differently because of their skin color personally, at work, or under the law.

If you support treating people differently because of their skin tone, you are racist in my view, and this approach will perpetuate inequality, not solve it.

Do you honestly think we need continued descrimination -- we just need to balance out the discimination of the past, with more discimination? We need to divide this country up into groups based on melanin tone, and all descriminate against each other, and use the government to steal each other's money, until there are no statistical inequities? Do you think this would bring us together, or divide us? Do you think this would bring us closer to the end of classism and racism, or perpetuate them? The answer is obvious.

These groups did not achieve equality through special government programs or government handouts, they achieved equality because society stopped treating people differently because they belonged to one of these groups. We are darn close with black people, in my view, closer than we've ever been -- and there are two groups of people holding us back:

1. Racists who hate black people. They still exist, unfortunately, although their numbers are dwindling, and they're mostly old in my experience.

2. Racists who cloak themselves in PC rhetoric, but continue to perpetuate the divisions in our society. They speak of racial reconciliation, but every word out of their mouths divides white from black, rich from poor, brown from yellow. They are seen in the media, where everyone belongs to a "voting block", and they are seen in so called "civil rights leaders" who judge very much by the color of a persons skin, and very little by their character.

This is the idea that will end racism, classism, agism, and the like:

You are a person, not a unit in a group. You are not defined by your age, your race, or your class, you are defined by your character. I will not lump you into a catagory and treat you as a member of that catagory, I will treat you as a person and an individual.

If you reject this idea, for whatever reason, and wish to judge people based on attributes they were born with and can do nothing about, and think people should be treated on this basis by friends, businesses, or government, you are part of the problem, not the solution, and you seek to perpetuate this evil in society.



About 1 in 10 black men are in prison. How can that be good for the United States?

This is mainly due to classist drug laws, which should be ended, I agree. For example, crack gets you jail, but powder gets you therapy. We should end the war on drugs.

To say that we need to end racism, and treat people the same, no matter what race, is not to say that we have achieved all our goals as a society. It is to say this: Here, now, I will not perpetuate this evil any more, and I will be part of the solution, not part of the problem. And, I will fight against all policies which divide people in this way, and discriminate for or against them based on race, etc.

I firmly believe that unless we screw it up, the next generation will be much, much better. Kids these days are not by and large brought up to hate and fear, as kids in the 50s were. Let's not pass racism on to our kids by entrenching racist policies in our government.

[BlackTerrel]

Whats the supposed population percentage of blacks in America?

What percentage of that population should be made rich to even the playing field?

This is a joke. I'm talking about evening the playing field. If Paris Hilton pays a little more taxes so a kid in the ghetto can get food and a proper education that's a good thing.

[BlackTerrel]

Well, I could start by acknowledging that black fathers tend to disappear from their children's lives more often than white fathers, proportionately.

Why is that? Does dark skin just make people bad fathers or are there historical reasons for this disparity? Can we try to correct for these errors of the past?


I think that's a pretty big problem the black community has in molding the young people, especially young males. That would also explain your arrest differential. But that simply ignores whether blacks actually commit more crimes? If they do, then they do and they get arrested more for it. The drug war (which we ALL agree should be shitcanned) is a big reason for that.

I completely agree with you regarding the war on drugs.


Yep, that was me. So I guess you think racism only happens when someone else is doing it? Singling out white people for the modern struggles of blacks is racism IMHO. I never made anybody pick cotton. You never picked cotton. So why should I pay you for something that neither of us had anything to do with? And you also continue to take my "anti-semite" comment out of context. Im sure that's intentional. Surely a smart young man like yourself can understand nuance. But I ask again....you claim to admire RP and support his policies, yet you are here advocating socialism in its purest form, which RP is strictly against. Seems a little strange, no?

I like RP on A LOT of issues. I want us out of foreign wars (he's the only one to advocate that). I don't like the fed, I think these bailouts are terrible and just feed the beast and make things worst long term. All that said, he's not God and I disagree with him on issues as well.


Your previous post exposes your real feelings. Blacks "earned it" therefore should not pay higher taxes, while whites that "stole it" should. Racism and socialism all wrapped up in a neat little package.

I believe you mentioned LeBron and Jay-Z. Those are people that earned it. If you had mentioned Brad Pitt, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, John Stockton, Warren Buffet, or a thousand other people I would've said they earned it too.

A lot of the scum on Wall Street (definitely not all white) scammed people and earned their money the wrong way, same with a lot of these country club Republicans in the small Southern town where I grew up. They all were rich as Hell and had families that had been in the country for hundreds of years and had made their money off slavery in years past. Not a single non-white, Catholic, or Jew in that entire country club. I don't think those people deserve their money.

[BlackTerrel]

Give me a fucking break, yes I have been to so called "black neighborhoods", yes the living conditions are poor and filthy as shit. You know what else? Every other guy you run into is either a crackhead or selling dope. This is where you go to find drugs if you are desperate enough, you will always find them if you don't get mugged first. These are communities where the majority just doesn't give a fuck, where the majority gave up on life and would rather be high 24/7 than work for something better. Sure you can try to blame that on how disadvantaged black people are, but most if it comes down to just giving up and the pathetic parenting that follows. When I was in middle school nearly all of my black friends had either no father or a shit head dope dealer who would beat them for a father. Hmmm, I wonder where that is going to lead? By the time I had graduated from high school most of them where selling drugs, not just on the side or for fun, but "full time" like they could live off it. Well, that is the ones who had not already been fucked over by the judicial system and where spending their lives in jail.

I actually completely agree with you. And sadly I've seen the same things you've seen. So why is this so? Why does it affect black people so disproportionately compared to white people, and what can we do about it? I don't think higher taxes for rich people, to help educate young people in the inner cities (not just blacks) is a bad thing - I think it's a good thing.

[The_Orlonater]

I actually completely agree with you. And sadly I've seen the same things you've seen. So why is this so? Why does it affect black people so disproportionately compared to white people, and what can we do about it? I don't think higher taxes for rich people, to help educate young people in the inner cities (not just blacks) is a bad thing - I think it's a good thing.

Throwing money at them won't work, either.

[JP2010]

Who's the most downtrodden? You don't need to be a genius to figure it out. Go check out a prison. Go check out a black neighborhood, and if you're still alive when you leave compare it to a white neighborhood. You can't just ignore that one groups been treated like crap for two hundred years and "ok we're all equal now, let's just forget about the past".
Go check out a Reservation.

[werdd]

I dont give a fuck about race, and i dont care who was a slave in the past. If anyone traces their lineage back far enough your ancestors at one time or another were probably slaves. Let's not forget that tribal warfare in africa actually sold the slaves to the western europeans.

Hence "I for one wish we would of left you all in africa", because blacks would of been enslaved by their own people. Just like they were for thousands of years.

Maybe you should trace back your tribal ancestry and hold them accountable.

Im sick of the whoa is me bullshit blacks are spewing. You aren't owed anything, just like the goverment doesnt owe me anything.

I would of voted for a black man if he had the principals that Ron Paul has. The fact is we got a black commie, which runs hand in hand if you think the goverment owes you reperations for your ancestry.

[Natalie]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/opinion/02krugman.html?ex=1388552400&en=7117d3dcb10487d4&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg




WTF.

You are a racist. Get outta here cracker. :mad:

Edit: I thought I was at theobamaforum.com. Nevermind :o

[BlackTerrel]

Throwing money at them won't work, either.

I'm not saying throw money at the problem, that doesn't fix anything.

Do you think the people that benefited from slavery and racism have a duty to help those who were hurt by slavery and racism?

[James Madison]

I'm not saying throw money at the problem, that doesn't fix anything.

Do you think the people that benefited from slavery and racism have a duty to help those who were hurt by slavery and racism?

No, because if one traces their ancestry far enough back they will find slaves regardless of their ethnicity. And what about people like Al Sharpton who've made a living off of inciting racial tension in America? You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who has benefited more from racism than him.

[BlackTerrel]

No, because if one traces their ancestry far enough back they will find slaves regardless of their ethnicity. And what about people like Al Sharpton who've made a living off of inciting racial tension in America? You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who has benefited more from racism than him.

Al Sharpton has enough money... my concern is not for him. My concern is for black kids who grow up without hope because of a legacy that they inherited, and that legacy is slavery and racism. Their poverty, their living in the ghetto can all be traced back to certain events and attitudes. Letting them live with no means for escape is not the way forward - someone needs to fix the situation.

[tremendoustie]

I'm not saying throw money at the problem, that doesn't fix anything.

Do you think the people that benefited from slavery and racism have a duty to help those who were hurt by slavery and racism?

I think we all have a duty to do our best to help each other, voluntarily.

But no, not in the way you mean. I certainly didn't benefit from slavery or racism. I wish it had never happened. In fact, my ancestors were all poor as dirt. My great grandmother came over from Germany as a young teen with just the shirt on her back.

What, you're going to go through history and record every act of subjugation or imperialism, and go find the decendents of the victims and perpetrators, and force them to pay each other? Since when is anyone morally responsible for the acts of their ancestors?

Look, if you could find a particular instance where there were a plantation owner who became wealthy through slaveholding, and who passed the clearly tracable money along to his kids and grandkids, and you could identify the decendants of the particular slaves who lived there, I could see a case for giving them the inherited money.

But I think to say all white people need to pay all black people is very wrong.

[tremendoustie]

Why is that? Does dark skin just make people bad fathers or are there historical reasons for this disparity? Can we try to correct for these errors of the past?



Obviously I think the negative impact segregation has been significant -- we still feel the effects.

But, specifically regarding the fathership issue, I really think the main culprit is welfare. It is interesting to note that black families used to be more likely to be intact than white families, but inner city single parenthood spiked right after the explosion of welfarism in the U.S. One reason is that under welfare, the role of the father, as breadwinner in the family was undermined.

As an example, here's an interesting study on the negative impact of welfarism on the family: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1084.cfm

I guess my broader point is that often throwing money at people does more damage than good. An intact family, and the opportunity to earn respect and a living, is much more important. I think we need to kill, once and for all, the idea that we can separate ourselves by race. Black kids growing up should know that they are an important and equal part of our society, with a lot to contribute.

That is, believing that you are "owed" something by society is a recipe for failure. Believing that you can benefit society, and society needs your skills, intelligence, and unique perspective is a recipe for success.

[werdd]

Al Sharpton has enough money... my concern is not for him. My concern is for black kids who grow up without hope because of a legacy that they inherited, and that legacy is slavery and racism. Their poverty, their living in the ghetto can all be traced back to certain events and attitudes. Letting them live with no means for escape is not the way forward - someone needs to fix the situation.

Like Ron Paul said, bailouts are contagious. If you bailout the blacks, whose next and line, and who can make the case they are less deserving?

[The_Orlonater]

I'm not saying throw money at the problem, that doesn't fix anything.

Do you think the people that benefited from slavery and racism have a duty to help those who were hurt by slavery and racism?

You're willing to do the research on each old american family? Who was the last living slave? People can help others voluntarily, through charitable organizations. You are teaching people how to be parasites because all they will know how to do is take money from the "slave ownin' white boy."

[The_Orlonater]

Al Sharpton has enough money... my concern is not for him. My concern is for black kids who grow up without hope because of a legacy that they inherited, and that legacy is slavery and racism. Their poverty, their living in the ghetto can all be traced back to certain events and attitudes. Letting them live with no means for escape is not the way forward - someone needs to fix the situation.

And there aren't white kids in poverty? Can you please stop pushing people into collective racial groups? One group is now privileged over another?

[asimplegirl]

Al Sharpton has enough money... my concern is not for him. My concern is for black kids who grow up without hope because of a legacy that they inherited, and that legacy is slavery and racism. Their poverty, their living in the ghetto can all be traced back to certain events and attitudes. Letting them live with no means for escape is not the way forward - someone needs to fix the situation.

Do I get reparations as my grandmother and grandfather's parents were slaves?

That is how my paw paw's family became red bone, they moved to the neutral zone, where outlaws, rogue Indians, and slaves could go to and the law was not allowed legally.

What about the fact that my family on this side has never been above the poverty line, but has never had welfare?

What about the fact that the family that owned my paw paw's family was a black family?

Reparations for anyone is a bad idea, as we ALL can find somewhere on some side of out family a link to slavery. If we go back far enough in any black person's life, we are sure to find that they were probably linked to a slave owner in Africa..maybe even one that sold their slaves to America.

You know, on the other side of my family, they were slave owners. So, how would you decide if I was deserving to get reparations or not? My family still lives in poverty on one side, and on the other is upper middle class middle class.

I am not deserving because someone long ago on one side of my family I am not close to owned slaves, even if I was raised close to the side that long ago was slaves and was raised UNDER the poverty line?

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

From This American Life -- Episode 364 (Going Big):

Act One. Harlem Renaissance.

Paul Tough reports on the Harlem Children’s Zone, and its CEO and president, Geoffrey Canada. Among the project’s many facets is Baby College, an 8-week program where young parents and parents-to-be learn how to help their children get the education they need to be successful. Tough’s just-published book about Geoffrey Canada and the Harlem's Children Zone is called Whatever It Takes...(30 and 1⁄2 minutes)

The radio segment deals with training parents of poor families to use a set of good parenting techniques which are also found in wealthier homes. All episodes of This American Life are streamed over the web, free of charge.

A link to this particular episode can be found here:
http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1262

[asimplegirl]

I listened, and I like it.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

I listened, and I like it.

Excellent. As an aside, anyone who liked the above radio program might also be interested in Episode 340, loosely connected to foreign policy.

I created a thread on it, here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176924

Have a great day.

Sincerely,
Omphfullas Zamboni