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Anti Federalist
12-30-2008, 11:30 PM
Girl dies on cold walk; dad charged with murder (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081230/ap_on_re_us/hypothermia_death)

Tue Dec 30, 11:31 am ETTWIN FALLS, Idaho –

The father of an 11-year-old girl who died, likely of hypothermia, after trying to walk 10 miles in the snow on Christmas Day has been charged with second-degree murder and felony injury to a child.

Robert Aragon, 55, of Jerome, made an initial appearance Monday in 5th District Court, where Judge Mark Ingram appointed a public defender for him. The judge denied Aragon's request to lower his $500,000 bond. He was being held in the Blaine County Jail.

Aragon was emotional during the short hearing. He banged his head on the defendant's table as Ingram read the charges against him, The Times-News reported. After Ingram noted that second-degree murder carries a maximum penalty of life in prison, Aragon said "Oh my God" as he banged his head on the table one final time.

Sage Aragon and her 12-year-old brother, Bear, were with their father on Thursday when his truck got stuck in a snow drift near state Highway 75, north of Shoshone in southcentral Idaho, according to the Lincoln County sheriff's office.

The children live with Aragon in Jerome and he was taking them to visit their mother, JoLeta Jenks, in West Magic.

After the truck got caught in the snow, authorities allege Aragon let the children out to walk to their mother's house while he and another adult stayed behind to free the vehicle.

Jenks said she called Aragon because she was concerned after no one arrived at her home on Thursday. Aragon had driven back to Jerome after letting the kids out to walk to her house, Jenks said.

"They didn't even call me, telling me they were walking," she told the Times-News.

Jenks called the police and a Blaine County search and rescue team found the boy at a rest area near the highway shortly before 10 p.m. on Thursday night.

Adults in the search effort described the snow as knee-deep for them.

The boy was found wearing only long underwear, Blaine County Sheriff Walt Femling said in a news release. Apparently delusional from hypothermia, the child had discarded his jacket, pants and shoes, the sheriff's office said. He was treated and released at a nearby hospital.

The rest area was about 4.5 miles from where the children started walking.

At some point the children separated and their mother said her son told her they disagreed about whether to keep going or turn back.

"(Bear) kept on telling her: 'Let's go, Sage, let's go, Sage,'" Jenks said, recalling what her son told her. "She said, 'No, I'm going back.'"

The little girl was found about 2.7 miles from where the two set out, barely visible under windblown, drifting snow when search dogs located her along a local road about 2 a.m. Friday. She was wearing a brown down coat, black shirt, pink pajama pants and tan snowboots, the sheriff's office statement said.

"I thought she was alive because they said they found her," Jenks said. "I was excited."

The girl was pronounced dead at a Ketchum hospital; preliminary autopsy results indicate she died of hypothermia.

Officials say temperatures in the area at the time the girl was missing ranged from 27 degrees above zero to minus 5.

Jenks and Aragon are not married. While she said she doesn't understand the decision Aragon is accused of making in letting the children walk to her house, Jenks added, "I don't need to sit and yell. I know he's going through hell right now."

Anti Federalist
12-30-2008, 11:34 PM
Now, regardless of what may have happened here, there is a problem I have with this.

There was clearly no criminal intent, at least based on the news report, dad didn't intend to kill his daughter, at worst it was a very stupid lapse in judgment.

$500,000 in bail?

Amendment 8:

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Ex Post Facto
12-31-2008, 12:24 AM
I agree. No criminal intent. People have no clue how dangerous weather can be until they are stuck in it. There have been people on camping trips, take a wrong turn in the snow and get stuck. Some live some die. I guess if it happens in a town or along a freeway though its a crime? This poor father, is probably already hating his decision, punishment is served. The natural punishment is worse than any crime. "Oh my God" is what I thought as well when reading this article. I feel the fathers pain.

danberkeley
12-31-2008, 12:27 AM
Where were the cops and firemen to help?

Tatsit
12-31-2008, 12:42 AM
Being a father I am split on this one....

On the one hand your all right - there was no criminal intent - at worst he should child endangerment...

On the other hand - how freakin stupid can you be?? I live probably about 3 hours away from were this took place - and anyone in their right mind would never do that to their children.

So, I think child endangerment and manslaughter should be the charges there. He did fail to go search for his kids after he got the vehicle unstuck nor call anyone to inform them they were walking.

angelatc
12-31-2008, 12:53 AM
I don't see any need to press charges.

This poor, poor guy. Even idiots love their kids.

Kludge
12-31-2008, 01:00 AM
There's no need to burden taxpayers by imprisoning him. There's no possibility of rehabilitation. You can't fix stupid.

Mitt Romneys sideburns
12-31-2008, 01:01 AM
Tue Dec 30, 11:31 am ETTWIN FALLS, Idaho –


I found the problem

sevin
12-31-2008, 01:02 AM
I don't see any need to press charges.

This poor, poor guy. Even idiots love their kids.

I sort of see it this way. The guy is an absolute moron for letting them walk, but maybe the possibility of death didn't occur to him. Isn't there something called involuntary manslaughter?

TastyWheat
12-31-2008, 02:08 AM
If you think he told his daughter to walk through the snow, knowing it was likely for her to die of hypothermia, then that's murder.

However, I do not think there were bad intentions involved, only bad judgment. He's been sufficiently punished by losing his daughter and otherwise he is no threat to the community. Prison would be a waste of his life, court time, and taxpayer dollars.

cybloo
12-31-2008, 05:00 AM
I looked at Idaho's laws for their definitions of murder and manslaughter (Murder (http://law.justia.com/idaho/codes/18ftoc/180400003.html) vs. Manslaughter (http://law.justia.com/idaho/codes/18ftoc/180400006.html)). Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm no lawyer), but won't the prosecutor have to prove malicious intent or gross negligence for a successful 2nd degree murder charge? I think it would be hard to prove malicious intent, but gross negligence could be argued successfully. I mean... he did have his young children walk 10 miles in bad weather and his actions after his vehicle was unstuck definitely speak volumes as to his inattentiveness...

I don't know though, I'd have to wait and see what evidence there is to come up with a conclusion. He could have been a loving, responsible father who royally fucked up or he could have been a retard of a father, who just wanted to get his kids out of his hair, caring more about getting his car unstuck. In the first scenario, his grief and guilt should be a good enough punishment; in the second scenario, his ass needs to get handed to him and he either needs to serve time or pay restitution or both. Is he a threat to society? No, so house arrest/parole/community service is probably a better route to go.

Though, if he planned on his children dying in their walk, then he deserves the same fate.

Time for Change
12-31-2008, 05:13 AM
he either needs to serve time or pay restitution or both.


Restitution to who?
The government for their loss of future tax revenue?

This appears to be a case of BS charges brought by a complete idiot prosecutor who is looking to funnel money into the court system.

Mitt Romneys sideburns
12-31-2008, 05:45 AM
First off, this idiot needs to pay back the city for the resources they used searching for his lost kid.

Time for Change
12-31-2008, 08:15 AM
First off, this idiot needs to pay back the city for the resources they used searching for his lost kid.

Understandable thinking...but...wouldn't those people have been on the job, getting paid, regardless of that call.
If the call never came in (because it never happened) who would pay the restitution for THAT idle worker's time?

See what I mean?

Definitely a bad situation, but the fact that this terrible event happened is punishment enough for this guy...unless portions of the actual story are missing...but we all know that the media wouldn't report anything other than the hard facts, so that's not the case.

Mitt Romneys sideburns
12-31-2008, 08:28 AM
Understandable thinking...but...wouldn't those people have been on the job, getting paid, regardless of that call.
If the call never came in (because it never happened) who would pay the restitution for THAT idle time?

See what I mean?

the rescue team would be made up of members who would otherwise be off duty, using vehicles and equipment that would otherwise not be turned on.

In this case, I doubt it would be much more than a the gas used for a couple of police cars to drive around for a bit. But in cases were the search is longer and more expansive, helicopter fly-overs can start running up a big bill.

acptulsa
12-31-2008, 08:30 AM
I looked at Idaho's laws for their definitions of murder and manslaughter (Murder (http://law.justia.com/idaho/codes/18ftoc/180400003.html) vs. Manslaughter (http://law.justia.com/idaho/codes/18ftoc/180400006.html)). Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm no lawyer), but won't the prosecutor have to prove malicious intent or gross negligence for a successful 2nd degree murder charge? I think it would be hard to prove malicious intent, but gross negligence could be argued successfully.

Prosecutors often levy a more harsh charge to enable the jury to lower it. It isn't a case of bait and switch, exactly--just smells like it. Gives the jury to bring in a conviction without feeling bad about it.

I can see no need to punish this moron. He's got his own punishment handled. That said, maybe a lifetime in jail will be just what he'd want at this point. Even if he's acquitted and spends no time in prison, he won't be free. Not really.

I don't know. Stupidity on this scale is foreign to me. I wouldn't even let a child ride in a pickup truck on slick roads if I could do anything to prevent it. A more incompetent and inappropriate vehicle for bad weather driving than an unloaded pickup truck I cannot imagine. So, when he sends the kids walking for miles in pajamas, well, that's just the icing--as far as I was concerned, he had already taken the cake. Bang your head on the table some more, dude. Maybe it'll start working.

The One
12-31-2008, 08:31 AM
There is something wrong with the father that goes far beyond just being a dumbass. I've been at a loss since I first heard this story.....it defies explanation.

Tatsit
12-31-2008, 09:22 AM
there's no need to burden taxpayers by imprisoning him. There's no possibility of rehabilitation. You can't fix stupid.

lol

asimplegirl
12-31-2008, 10:15 AM
Restitution to who?
The government for their loss of future tax revenue?

This appears to be a case of BS charges brought by a complete idiot prosecutor who is looking to funnel money into the court system.

I think she(?) was saying that if the father sent them out with the intentions of dying, then he deserved this, but if not, losing his daughter was punishment enough. You took the second half of the sentence.

Anti Federalist
12-31-2008, 11:23 AM
I'm thinking, from reading over the responses, that everybody is understanding that stupid does not equal criminal, and that excessive bail is imposed in this case.

That's good.

As far as paying for resources for the search, I'm opposed, generally. I saw this happening with USCG marine searches. I don't buy it. That's what we are forced to pay for, if we are charged yet again to pull the trigger on these resources, then what's the point? Fire them all, go back to private emergency services, and pay into a private pool for insurance to cover these sort of things.

gls
12-31-2008, 12:02 PM
As far as paying for resources for the search, I'm opposed, generally. I saw this happening with USCG marine searches. I don't buy it. That's what we are forced to pay for, if we are charged yet again to pull the trigger on these resources, then what's the point? Fire them all, go back to private emergency services, and pay into a private pool for insurance to cover these sort of things.

I read an article recently about how some municipalities, with local tax revenues drying up, are now billing the recipient directly for emergency services. Whether that's a good thing from a libertarian perspective is debatable, but the ridiculous part is that it applies even if someone else dials 911. So say you're driving in your car and spin out and hit a snowbank, someone calls it in and an ambulance and a couple of police show up. Even if you refuse assistance they're still within their rights to send you a $3K (or whatever) bill, which if not paid will affect your credit score. I don't know about anyone else but I'd be pissed if that happened to me.

Here's the article: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourCar/crash-taxes-add-hefty-fees-for-aid.aspx

Mitt Romneys sideburns
12-31-2008, 12:07 PM
I'm thinking, from reading over the responses, that everybody is understanding that stupid does not equal criminal, and that excessive bail is imposed in this case.

That's good.

As far as paying for resources for the search, I'm opposed, generally. I saw this happening with USCG marine searches. I don't buy it. That's what we are forced to pay for, if we are charged yet again to pull the trigger on these resources, then what's the point? Fire them all, go back to private emergency services, and pay into a private pool for insurance to cover these sort of things.

I see your point, but there does come a time when people are simply wasting resources. A judgment call needs to be made on what emergencies could have been avoided had people not been so dumb.

angelatc
12-31-2008, 12:11 PM
If you think he told his daughter to walk through the snow, knowing it was likely for her to die of hypothermia, then that's murder.

However, I do not think there were bad intentions involved, only bad judgment. He's been sufficiently punished by losing his daughter and otherwise he is no threat to the community. Prison would be a waste of his life, court time, and taxpayer dollars.

I think he probably didn't realize how cold it was outside. When you run from car to house and vice-versa, it's easy to underestimate. But 10 miles away? If that's true, he's an idiot.

I wouldn't let make my kids walk 10 miles anywhere.

Mitt Romneys sideburns
12-31-2008, 12:13 PM
I think he probably didn't realize how cold it was outside. When you run from car to house and vice-versa, it's easy to underestimate. But 10 miles away? If that's true, he's an idiot.

I wouldn't let make my kids walk 10 miles anywhere.

They are from Idaho, so I can kinda see why these backwards hicks would see a 10 miles hike through the snow for an 11 year old as no big deal.

angelatc
12-31-2008, 12:16 PM
I see your point, but there does come a time when people are simply wasting resources. A judgment call needs to be made on what emergencies could have been avoided had people not been so dumb.

OK - here's the definition. Emergencies that are accidents happen to me. Emergencies that are stupidity happen to you. That's the type of "judgement calls" you'll get if you give that power to the ruling class.

In Chicago, they already play that game. Democrats have accidents, and Republicans are stupid.

Every emergency you can think of is a direct result of stupidity. Tornado hit your house? You shouldn't live in Kansas, stupid.

This is the type of condescension that drives neighbors apart and gives government power.

angelatc
12-31-2008, 12:19 PM
They are from Idaho, so I can kinda see why these backwards hicks would see a 10 miles hike through the snow for an 11 year old as no big deal.

Fuck you. Idaho's backward hicks run a state that isn't teetering on bankruptcy. LIberal bullshit - you can't be racist and say that inner city blacks should get jobs, but it's ok to call self-sustaining folks who literally put food on your table "backward hicks."

The_Orlonater
12-31-2008, 12:24 PM
Fuck you. Idaho's backward hicks run a state that isn't teetering on bankruptcy. LIberal bullshit - you can't be racist and say that inner city blacks should get jobs, but it's ok to call self-sustaining folks who literally put food on your table "backward hicks."

+1

Enough with the sectionalism and prejudice here.

angelatc
12-31-2008, 12:25 PM
First off, this idiot needs to pay back the city for the resources they used searching for his lost kid.

Assuming that he pays taxes, he's already paid for it, dumbass.

Liberals don't believe in pay-as-you-go services, dumbass. That's too libertarian.

Anti Federalist
12-31-2008, 12:27 PM
I see your point, but there does come a time when people are simply wasting resources. A judgment call needs to be made on what emergencies could have been avoided had people not been so dumb.

Mission creep set in.

This what happened with USCG marine rescues, they started charging for deliberate false calls (this I would agree with you on), but then the charges started coming in for "routine" calls. As the funding dries up, it will be charged for all calls regardless. In fact, I believe that is a policy directive for 2009.

And then there is the point that was brought up, what if some other yutz calls 911 on your behalf, when you neither want nor need government "assistance"?

For ten years I ran a business that provides nationwide marine emergency support and rescue, for a paltry $95 a year. This company now has hundreds of thousands of members. I would be more than willing to pay a similar fee for my own fire/security/EMT services as well, and not involve cops in any way.

Anti Federalist
12-31-2008, 12:29 PM
Fuck you. Idaho's backward hicks run a state that isn't teetering on bankruptcy. LIberal bullshit - you can't be racist and say that inner city blacks should get jobs, but it's ok to call self-sustaining folks who literally put food on your table "backward hicks."

That deserves a QFT.

Mitt Romneys sideburns
12-31-2008, 12:52 PM
Fuck you. Idaho's backward hicks run a state that isn't teetering on bankruptcy. LIberal bullshit - you can't be racist and say that inner city blacks should get jobs, but it's ok to call self-sustaining folks who literally put food on your table "backward hicks."

Im from Texas. And if you're not, you can fuck off.

Mitt Romneys sideburns
12-31-2008, 12:57 PM
Assuming that he pays taxes, he's already paid for it, dumbass.

And my tax dollars also pay for schools, but if I send my kid there, they still have to pay for lunch.

acptulsa
12-31-2008, 01:00 PM
Im from Texas. And if you're not, you can fuck off.

I'm from Oklahoma. Dubya's from Tex-ass. You first.

Mitt Romneys sideburns
12-31-2008, 01:05 PM
I'm from Oklahoma. Dubya's from Tex-ass. You first.

Must be nice when you look across the border and see our brand new Caterpillar manufacturing facility. Just leave all the producing to us, while you get back to whatever it is you guys do up there.

HOLLYWOOD
12-31-2008, 01:08 PM
This is where the Dumbed Down Jury of citizens need to throw the case out the window.

Courts, Judges, and DA's/Prosecuters are out of control...

I do love how the system throws in the secondary charge of: "felony injury to a child"

you know the 2nd degree charge will be thrownout for the lesser "Felony Injury" charge~!

It's how the scamming judicial system will work... probably get 3-5 years... cost the taxpayers $100's of thousand of dollars and the stupidity is not fix. The family will be broke up, on Welfare, food stamps, subsidized utilities, more government, and most likely the childern will grow up with some problems related to the government garbage

Want this resolved... have the moron work with CPS - Child Protective Services for a year. Maybe a "Runaways" home, etc...

That's the best solution

acptulsa
12-31-2008, 01:28 PM
Must be nice when you look across the border and see our brand new Caterpillar manufacturing facility. Just leave all the producing to us, while you get back to whatever it is you guys do up there.

We grow the food that keeps your big, tacky belt buckles hidden from view.

But enough of the hijack.

Yeah, I don't know. The libertarian in me abhors the idea of locking him up just to prevent him from reproducing again. But every other part of me wants to do just that.

I feel sorry for the boy. How long will he kick himself for not staying with her? He was right, mind you--there was no truck to go back to and together they might have made it. But that won't stop him from kicking himself. For life.

PatriotG
12-31-2008, 01:37 PM
This is where the Dumbed Down Jury of citizens need to throw the case out the window.

Courts, Judges, and DA's/Prosecuters are out of control...

I do love how the system throws in the secondary charge of: "felony injury to a child"

you know the 2nd degree charge will be thrownout for the lesser "Felony Injury" charge~!

It's how the scamming judicial system will work... probably get 3-5 years... cost the taxpayers $100's of thousand of dollars and the stupidity is not fix. The family will be broke up, on Welfare, food stamps, subsidized utilities, more government, and most likely the childern will grow up with some problems related to the government garbage

Want this resolved... have the moron work with CPS - Child Protective Services for a year. Maybe a "Runaways" home, etc...

I agree with the above.

500,000 is absolutley excessive!
Jeeez, based on what avaialbe information there is, he made a bad judgement call. This doesnt justify the bail or the charge.

At worst he should be forced to sit under house arrest with Madoff in his NY penthouse!

what the hell is wrong with our justice system these days?

acptulsa
12-31-2008, 01:53 PM
what the hell is wrong with our justice system these days?

Somewhere down the line they decided they didn't mind being terribly, horribly mis-named.

The One
12-31-2008, 05:00 PM
Im from Texas. And if you're not, you can fuck off.

I, too, am from Texas. Therefore, no fucking off is required for me. Woohoo!!!

Kludge
12-31-2008, 05:03 PM
Michigan's the best. We're one of the top meth producers in the world.

Kludge
12-31-2008, 05:04 PM
Every emergency you can think of is a direct result of stupidity. Tornado hit your house? You shouldn't live in Kansas, stupid.

This is the type of condescension that drives neighbors apart and gives government power.

City flood? You shouldn't live in a house under the sea level, stupid?