Oregon Gov. Wants to Track Drivers' Mileage by Satellite

[Knightskye]

http://www.dhonline.com/articles/2008/12/28/news/local/1aaa02_road.txt



The governor wants the task force “to partner with auto manufacturers to refine technology that would enable Oregonians to pay for the transportation system based on how many miles they drive.”

The online outline adds: “The governor is committed to ensuring that rural Oregon is not adversely affected and that privacy concerns are addressed.”

I think I'd rather have a gas tax.

Why doesn't he change it to a fuel tax and just have it wherever there's a "gas" station?

[phill4paul]

Their sentiments echo North Carolinas latest. Seems our state is looking at the same thing.

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?entry=9873

" If the “road-use tax” is implemented, it would at first be simple – with the state checking your odometer annually and taxing you based on how many miles you have driven. But transportation experts say new GPS technology could allow the state to charge people different rates based on when and where they drive, in an attempt to manage congestion."


I'm pretty sure we all know why a simple gas tax is not enough for them;)

[acptulsa]

I think I'd rather have a gas tax.

Why doesn't he change it to a fuel tax and just have it wherever there's a "gas" station?

You must never have been there. Outrageous taxes on fuel plus a goofy law shared by only one other state that prohibits you from serving yourself combine to create some of the highest pump prices in the nation. Anyone who lives anywhere near the border buys their gas in any other state they can reach. I always tank up just before entering the state when I drive to the Pacific Northwet.

Of course, this satellite crap is just the most invasive possible solution to a problem of their own making--people drive on their highways using gas from another state every chance they get. If they merely gave their residents credit for being able to fill their own tanks without professional assistance that would do the job just as well. But, of course, stubborn wins over logical time after time in state houses all over the world, not just in Salem...

[Knightskye]

Is there a solution that doesn't require the government to track your car's mileage, or violate any other rights?

[bojo68]

Is there a solution that doesn't require the government to track your car's mileage, or violate any other rights?

Well, first of all, it hasn't been demonstrated that there is indeed a problem . Sorry, but to me, just sniveling that there isn't enough money doesn't cut it, you need PROOF. So, IF indeed more money is needed,(which I doubt) the absolutely MOST FAIR way to raise it is the fuel tax, which already exists, and has no more costs. The problem govt. has now is they can't put the bite on those that conserve. I think that's just wonderful. If you ride a bike, your taxed at as rate that reflects the amount of wear and tear that you put upon the road, NONE. If you drive some flea bitten fuel squeezing that a good sneeze would knock 3 feet sideways, your taxed accordingly. Hummer?? Taxed accordingly. Semi?? taxed accordingly. All with the simple adjustment of the gas tax to reflect costs.
As far as the idea that the solution to the supposed problem that may or may not exist is to have govt know where everybody is at all times, I'm hoping I don't have to explain how illegal that is...

[jm1776]

The next natural extension of this will be automated speeding tickets in the mail. GPS evidence does not lie, no need for a court or judge. What a revenue booster!

[Anti Federalist]

Conspiracy kooks like myself having been following this story for years.

Has nothing to do with revenue, has nothing to do with road maintenance, has nothing to to do with being more "fair".

It has everything to do with government keeping a hairy eyeball on every mile you drive and where you drive it.

[Anti Federalist]

The next natural extension of this will be automated speeding tickets in the mail. GPS evidence does not lie, no need for a court or judge. What a revenue booster!

What will be next is a monthly uplink from your OBDII EEC system.

Any new vehicle keeps a record of fuel burn and driving habits, among dozens of other things.

You will then be "carbon taxed" and you will taxed "progressively" based on what you driving habits are.

[bojo68]

The next natural extension of this will be automated speeding tickets in the mail. GPS evidence does not lie, no need for a court or judge. What a revenue booster!

We already have that, it's called photo radar. Funniest part is, supposedly it doesn't lie either. Guess what?? Somebody got a speeding ticket, and it was sent to a state representative. Keep in mind that the state rep is heavy set, with a head that must be 18 inches wide, and drives something on the order of a crew cab Ford Diesel. The photo shows a black Mazda rx7, that he probably couldn't even get in....:)

[fedup100]

The states are no longer sovereign. These Governors go to D.C. each year and are given their marching orders according to the feds new world order. The Governors come back and do the same to the city mayors and city councils

This is why you see these red light cameras and this satellite crap going down in every State. People it is well past time to stand up and do something.

The frog is no longer slowly coming to a boil, he is cooked and they are putting on their bibs and are ready to devour all of you and yours.

[aravoth]

http://www.dhonline.com/articles/2008/12/28/news/local/1aaa02_road.txt



I think I'd rather have a gas tax.

Why doesn't he change it to a fuel tax and just have it wherever there's a "gas" station?

What do you mean "change it to a fuel tax"?

We already have a fuel Tax, thats why he wants to do this. You see, in the socialistic Shithole of a state I live in, people got all uppity and frightened about global warming, so people started buying hybrids en mass. Well, the state, after encouraging this activity with incentives, has now realized that the revenue from the gas tax has gone down. So in order to keep all the state workers employed they have to come up with another way to steal our money, and they want to do it by tracking every grocery store you go to, when you go to a movie, a bar, the woods, a mall, the hosipital, etc.

I hate Oregon, this place could catch on fire, get hit by a meteorite and fall into the ocean, and the only think I would say is, "Thank god, the gene pool of humanity has been spared."

[bojo68]

What do you mean "change it to a fuel tax"?

We already have a fuel Tax, thats why he wants to do this. You see, in the socialistic Shithole of a state I live in, people got all uppity and frightened about global warming, so people started buying hybrids en mass. Well, the state, after encouraging this activity with incentives, has now realized that the revenue from the gas tax has gone down. So in order to keep all the state workers employed they have to come up with another way to steal our money, and they want to do it by tracking every grocery store you go to, when you go to a movie, a bar, the woods, a mall, the hosipital, etc.

I hate Oregon, this place could catch on fire, get hit by a meteorite and fall into the ocean, and the only think I would say is, "Thank god, the gene pool of humanity has been spared."

Hehe!:) Agreed on the Socialistic shithole!:) But we DO have one of the better constitutions, even if most here are to stupid to know or use it.

[lynnf]

I think I have a better idea: let's track all the politicians, only, wherever they go, and
send them a little shock through their tracking devices whenever they vote the wrong way, like for these stupid notions!

lynn

[bojo68]

I think I have a better idea: let's track all the politicians, only, wherever they go, and
send them a little shock through their tracking devices whenever they vote the wrong way, like for these stupid notions!

lynn

Now there's an idea with some interesting promise. They could be tracked by their phones. Not only that, we could demand that their phones be ON during all voice votes, and record their positions, through the public meetings laws. We might even be able to track when our govenors are molesting 14 yr olds...:)

[Anti Federalist]

I think I have a better idea: let's track all the politicians, only, wherever they go, and
send them a little shock through their tracking devices whenever they vote the wrong way, like for these stupid notions!

lynn

They'd exempt themselves.

[Knightskye]

I think I have a better idea: let's track all the politicians, only, wherever they go, and
send them a little shock through their tracking devices whenever they vote the wrong way, like for these stupid notions!

lynn

The only problem - Congress would have to approve that first.

Catch 22. They're not gonna stop something that benefits them, but they'd stop anything that didn't. Think about that automatic pay raise.

[scandinaviany3]

http://www.dhonline.com/articles/2008/12/28/news/local/1aaa02_road.txt



I think I'd rather have a gas tax.

Why doesn't he change it to a fuel tax and just have it wherever there's a "gas" station?

revenue i believe from gas tax's they cant afford to loose.

Local university worked on gps based idea for a while knowing fuel economy will reduce the revenue.

Therefore they want to shift to the actual mileage you drive on a freeway.

What they need to do is grow energy production in the state and tax the sale of it out of state swap that revenue out.

Wave, Tide, Geo, Wind...is very ripe for the picking and the bridge to southern california is ripe for sales

[fj45lvr]

You must never have been there. Outrageous taxes on fuel plus a goofy law shared by only one other state that prohibits you from serving yourself combine to create some of the highest pump prices in the nation. Anyone who lives anywhere near the border buys their gas in any other state they can reach. I always tank up just before entering the state when I drive to the Pacific Northwet....


Well you're completely wrong on this account...both Washington State and California have higher Gas prices at the pump and are SELF SERVE!!! (legalizing self serve just makes it more likely that the owners can capture the minimum wage salaries as additional profit with no bearing on the prices).

I am against laws that don't allow self service but I must say that the argument that self-serve is going to end up making the fuel cheaper is about as DUMB as they come.

[acptulsa]

I am against laws that don't allow self service but I must say that the argument that self-serve is going to end up making the fuel cheaper is about as DUMB as they come.

Interesting argument. I don't believe it.

California does rival Oregon's gas prices, but California requires a plethora of additional additives in hopes of clearing Los Angeles' air. The highest gas prices in the state of Washington are along the Oregon border and that's the truth. Even midtown Seattle isn't as bad.

Salaries for a bigger crew affect the bottom line. While I admit that the bottom line is not the final arbiter of retail prices, the fact is that more lee way can and often does result in more price competition. A store with gas pumps can run half the crew if all pumps are self service. Therefore, it can sell for less. And if the market requires it, it will do so.

[tremendoustie]

What do you mean "change it to a fuel tax"?

We already have a fuel Tax, thats why he wants to do this. You see, in the socialistic Shithole of a state I live in, people got all uppity and frightened about global warming, so people started buying hybrids en mass. Well, the state, after encouraging this activity with incentives, has now realized that the revenue from the gas tax has gone down. So in order to keep all the state workers employed they have to come up with another way to steal our money, and they want to do it by tracking every grocery store you go to, when you go to a movie, a bar, the woods, a mall, the hosipital, etc.

I hate Oregon, this place could catch on fire, get hit by a meteorite and fall into the ocean, and the only think I would say is, "Thank god, the gene pool of humanity has been spared."

You know, not that I'd agree with this, but if they want more taxes, why not just raise the gas tax more? I mean, more disincentive to buy SUVs, right? They should be all for it.

I mean, I don't think their explicit goal is to actually become big brother, but jeez, if it were, I'm not sure what they'd do differently ...

[tremendoustie]

Well you're completely wrong on this account...both Washington State and California have higher Gas prices at the pump and are SELF SERVE!!! (legalizing self serve just makes it more likely that the owners can capture the minimum wage salaries as additional profit with no bearing on the prices).

I am against laws that don't allow self service but I must say that the argument that self-serve is going to end up making the fuel cheaper is about as DUMB as they come.

There are other factors that affect price too -- government required additives and varying local standards for example. And, why wouldn't you be able to offer lower prices if you don't need to hire attendants? It seems logical to me.

[tremendoustie]

I think I have a better idea: let's track all the politicians, only, wherever they go, and
send them a little shock through their tracking devices whenever they vote the wrong way, like for these stupid notions!

lynn

Absolutely, they're public servants after all. I know it might invade their private life a little, but after all, we must work to prevent corruption. Think of the children!! Plus, if they're not doing anything wrong, why should they mind?

Ankle bracelets for all politicians!!

[acptulsa]

You know, not that I'd agree with this, but if they want more taxes, why not just raise the gas tax more? I mean, more disincentive to buy SUVs, right? They should be all for it.

I mean, I don't think their explicit goal is to actually become big brother, but jeez, if it were, I'm not sure what they'd do differently ...

Well, the only other reason I can see is the hybrid/electric argument. These vehicles are becoming common enough to put some wear on highways but don't use enough fossil fuel to cover their share of road maintenance. Fair is fair and given the price of the Prius the argument could be made that to ignore this is to give yet another tax break to the rich. That said, how much does it cost to put a spy in the sky? Is this folly not bound to cost more than it produces in revenue?

I think that either their explicit goal is to actually become big brother or they're stupid.

[angelatc]

The next natural extension of this will be automated speeding tickets in the mail. GPS evidence does not lie, no need for a court or judge. What a revenue booster!

We already have those.

I like the satellite surveillance. We can couple it with laser strikes. Didn't pay that last speeding ticket??? ZAP! Ultimate Taser!!

[acptulsa]

We already have those.

I like the satellite surveillance. We can couple it with laser strikes. Didn't pay that last speeding ticket??? ZAP! Ultimate Taser!!

I love free speech and all, but damn it I wish we'd stop giving those #@*%ers ideas.

We should have gone ahead and developed small HARM missiles back in the early eighties when motion radar got popular. We gave tptb an inch and, sure enough, now they want the whole damned mile.

Government is like a two year old. It spends all its time checking to see just exactly what it can and can't get away with.

[aravoth]

You know, not that I'd agree with this, but if they want more taxes, why not just raise the gas tax more? I mean, more disincentive to buy SUVs, right? They should be all for it.

I mean, I don't think their explicit goal is to actually become big brother, but jeez, if it were, I'm not sure what they'd do differently ...

In Oregon, all new "tax increases" have to be voted on by the people, calling it a "Fee" is a way of bypassing it. No one would go for a higher gas tax, so make up a mileage "fee" and you can bypass those pesky voters. Of course it doesn't matter because Portland and Eugene decide everything for this state and both those cities are chalk full of Stupid people willing to give the Government anything they ask for.

Oregon is screwed, it has a number of different balance sheets, all of them in the red.

It tried to "pave the way" for free health care, it's bankrupt, the state has to borrow a ton of money to keep it going.

They don't give a crap about Private property. In fact they have this quasi governing body called METRO. Which is like a council of "experts" that plan and oversee the development of every community in the State. Essentially, if a city wishes to expand it's city limits, it would have to go through them first. News roads? New Buildings? You wanna put up a garage on your property? It all goes through METRO. My Mothers neighbor has an Acre of land in NE Portland, one of those few surviving neighborhoods from the 50's, when yards where important ya know. He wanted to put up a garage, a single car garage, attached to the side of his house. METRO would not allow it, because in 20 years there will be a road on that spot leading to and area which is now his backyard, which will be low income housing. He owns the property outright, it belongs to him, and yet.....he can't build a garage.

They've completely killed the only industry Oregon had, timber. Its gone, forever. Mills are expensive as hell to build and when they shut down, they rust, they corrode, those machines don't just "fire back up". Thousands of rural workers out of a job because of these idiots in Portland. Radical Environmentalists, The kind that hammer metal spikes into a tree so that when a faller goes in, his chainsaw breaks on the spike and cuts him in half. They forced out Private ownership citing the endangered "spotted owl", among other things. Once the forest couldn't no longer be maintained by Private industry any longer, the government took it over, didn't thin it out, the woods caught on fire, and killed the Stupid Spotted owl anyway.

If you are a rancher, they don't want you to shoot a wolf attacking your cattle, they will in fact fine you if you do. Just make a call to "animal control" (ROFL) And they will come out and capture the beast. So while your cattle are being shredded to ribbons by a rabid wolf, don't do anything, wait over an hour for animal control to show up capture it and release it a few miles down the road where it will promptly return to your property to finish killing the rest of your herd.

They've killed the fishing industry, they are actually paying fishermen to NOT FISH. And yet at the same time, they allow sea lions to hang out in reservoirs across the state, and eat endangered salmon to their hearts content.

This state is broke, and morally bankrupt, which is why I'm moving to Montana. Any good areas in NW Montana any one knows about?

[angelatc]

I have been playing around with this in my head all afternoon.

Privacy issues and our inherent fear of unfettered government acknowledged.....isn't a system that would charge drivers based on how much they drive a step towards a libertarian solution? Certainly we'd rather have a private firm renting us their roads, but actually using mileage as a means of determining fees is essentially a user-pay system, something that appeals to the libertarian-leaning Republican side of me.

[fj45lvr]

There are other factors that affect price too -- government required additives and varying local standards for example. And, why wouldn't you be able to offer lower prices if you don't need to hire attendants? It seems logical to me.


Do you really believe that having the additional expense of a minimum wage salary or two removed from the operating expenses is going to reduce the fuel by more than a penny a gallon???

come on..... I spend time in California and Washington every year and their fuel prices are MORE expensive than in Oregon even though the stations only have a guy that speaks english as a second language behind a glass wall to take your money and turn on the pump.

[fj45lvr]

In Oregon, all new "tax increases" have to be voted on by the people, calling it a "Fee" is a way of bypassing it. No one would go for a higher gas tax, so make up a mileage "fee" and you can bypass those pesky voters. Of course it doesn't matter because Portland and Eugene decide everything for this state and both those cities are chalk full of Stupid people willing to give the Government anything they ask for.

Oregon is screwed, it has a number of different balance sheets, all of them in the red.

It tried to "pave the way" for free health care, it's bankrupt, the state has to borrow a ton of money to keep it going.

They don't give a crap about Private property. In fact they have this quasi governing body called METRO. Which is like a council of "experts" that plan and oversee the development of every community in the State. Essentially, if a city wishes to expand it's city limits, it would have to go through them first. News roads? New Buildings? You wanna put up a garage on your property? It all goes through METRO. My Mothers neighbor has an Acre of land in NE Portland, one of those few surviving neighborhoods from the 50's, when yards where important ya know. He wanted to put up a garage, a single car garage, attached to the side of his house. METRO would not allow it, because in 20 years there will be a road on that spot leading to and area which is now his backyard, which will be low income housing. He owns the property outright, it belongs to him, and yet.....he can't build a garage.

They've completely killed the only industry Oregon had, timber. Its gone, forever. Mills are expensive as hell to build and when they shut down, they rust, they corrode, those machines don't just "fire back up". Thousands of rural workers out of a job because of these idiots in Portland. Radical Environmentalists, The kind that hammer metal spikes into a tree so that when a faller goes in, his chainsaw breaks on the spike and cuts him in half. They forced out Private ownership citing the endangered "spotted owl", among other things. Once the forest couldn't no longer be maintained by Private industry any longer, the government took it over, didn't thin it out, the woods caught on fire, and killed the Stupid Spotted owl anyway.

If you are a rancher, they don't want you to shoot a wolf attacking your cattle, they will in fact fine you if you do. Just make a call to "animal control" (ROFL) And they will come out and capture the beast. So while your cattle are being shredded to ribbons by a rabid wolf, don't do anything, wait over an hour for animal control to show up capture it and release it a few miles down the road where it will promptly return to your property to finish killing the rest of your herd.

They've killed the fishing industry, they are actually paying fishermen to NOT FISH. And yet at the same time, they allow sea lions to hang out in reservoirs across the state, and eat endangered salmon to their hearts content.

This state is broke, and morally bankrupt, which is why I'm moving to Montana. Any good areas in NW Montana any one knows about?

They are "screwed" due to the deals they made for their public Employee retirement and with the market collapse the HUGE chasm to actually be able to pay out what they promised.

Oregon definetly is a good example of what Liberals can do with their power as they push pencils in cubicle's in the city to try to modify the "social" behaviors of the hicks that occupy the majority of the counties. The ranchers won't worry too much about shootin wolves either BTW.

[jm1776]

I have been playing around with this in my head all afternoon.

Privacy issues and our inherent fear of unfettered government acknowledged.....isn't a system that would charge drivers based on how much they drive a step towards a libertarian solution? Certainly we'd rather have a private firm renting us their roads, but actually using mileage as a means of determining fees is essentially a user-pay system, something that appeals to the libertarian-leaning Republican side of me.

Fair enough, let's step back and moment and look at this.

How about first consulting the state constitution to determine what powers of taxation were granted to the state government. Typically some form of property taxes are granted to counties and the state is limited to excise taxes. Taxes on things and/or privileges. Some states also piggy back on the federal income tax.

A milage tax amounts to a tax on travel. :eek: Our right to travel is inalienable. This whole scheme is a horrible idea on many fronts.

[Knightskye]

I have been playing around with this in my head all afternoon.

Privacy issues and our inherent fear of unfettered government acknowledged.....isn't a system that would charge drivers based on how much they drive a step towards a libertarian solution? Certainly we'd rather have a private firm renting us their roads, but actually using mileage as a means of determining fees is essentially a user-pay system, something that appeals to the libertarian-leaning Republican side of me.

The government doesn't have the authority to track you or your vehicle's movements.

We have a right to privacy, so that's not a libertarian solution.

I like what someone suggested earlier, about having people pay for road wear and tear.