Is it time for conservatives to give up our fight against Big Government?

[Bradley in DC]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-viguerie29-2008dec29,0,362346.story


The GOP must reject Big Government
Republicans are making a huge mistake by turning away from the principle of small government.
By Richard A. Viguerie
December 29, 2008

Is it time for conservatives to give up our fight against Big Government?

Some people think so. Mike Huckabee, the Baptist preacher and former Arkansas governor and presidential candidate, complained in May to the Huffington Post that the greatest threat to the GOP is "this new brand of libertarianism" that says "look, we want to cut taxes and eliminate government." That, Huckabee said, is "not an American message. It doesn't fly. People aren't going to buy that, because that's not the way we are as a people."

And former George W. Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson, in a May column in the Washington Post, attacked small-government conservatives for believing that "no social priority is ... more urgent than balancing the budget" or that "the state's only valid purpose is to uphold markets and protect individual liberty." He argued that small-government conservatism in that form cannot succeed politically or as policy; that it would be relegated to "the realm of rejected ideologies: untainted, uncomplicated and ignored."

In the wake of the 2008 election debacle, the attack has continued.

In a column this month in the New York Times, William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard -- one of the nation's top conservative publications -- called on conservatives to come to grips with the reality of Big Government. Big Government is inevitable, Kristol suggested; we should accept it and move on. After all, he wrote, "talk of small government may be music to conservative ears, but it's not to the public as a whole."

Five Republicans have won the presidency since 1932, Kristol noted, and of those five, "only Reagan was even close to being a small-government conservative. ... And Reagan's record as governor and president wasn't a particularly government-slashing one."

Those of us who remain committed to small-government conservatism are, in Kristol's view, turning ourselves into cannon fodder. "I can't help but admire some of my fellow conservatives' loyalty to the small-government cause," he wrote. "It reminds me of the nobility of Tennyson's Light Brigade, as it charges into battle: 'Theirs but to do and die.' "

If, for conservatives, accepting the inevitability of Big Government constitutes pragmatism, it's an oxymoronic form of pragmatism -- one that doesn't work.

How did the GOP fare under those Republican presidents that Kristol cited? Dwight Eisenhower left the GOP so weak in Congress that Democrats were able to establish a seemingly permanent majority. President George H.W. Bush got less than 38% of the vote in his race for reelection. Richard Nixon and George W. Bush were party-smashing disasters comparable to Herbert Hoover (another Big Government Republican). Only Ronald Reagan succeeded as both president and party builder.

It is true that Reagan sometimes compromised. (I was one of the loudest complainers when he wandered off the small-government path.) But he never gave up on his core principles.

In 1975, when liberalism was on the march around the world, Reagan called for the rebirth of the GOP as a party "raising a banner of no pale pastels, but bold colors which make it unmistakably clear where we stand on all of the issues troubling the people." A few months later, he declared that "I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism" -- that is, the belief in small government.

Reagan's stated beliefs made him the object of ridicule among those who considered themselves intellectuals, but he stuck to his guns. And then, in 1980, when the failures of Big Government were evident to all Americans, the people turned for leadership to the presidential candidate who had been right all along.

Over the last eight years, President Bush sought to tame Big Government and turn it to conservative ends. The administration experimented with the belief -- as expressed by Huckabee, Gerson and Kristol -- that Republicans and conservatives would do better by rejecting small-government conservatism and accepting Big Government. For generations, Democrats had bribed people to vote for them with one Big Government program after another, so Republicans did the same (No Child Left Behind, the Medicare prescription drug benefit, endless deficits and, finally, the bailouts). The results of the experiment are now in: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Majority Leader Harry Reid, President-elect Barack Obama.

In the coming battle with Chicagoism, the conservatives' model is not the doomed members of the Light Brigade but the forces of Shakespeare's Henry V at Agincourt:



"And gentlemen in England now-a-bed

Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,

And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks

That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."



Whether we win or lose, future generations will celebrate us as those who fought for freedom at a crucial time in our nation's history. No one can guarantee victory. But if we do not fight, we guarantee defeat.

If we give up our most cherished principle to attain political office, what do we gain? Who will trust us? Who will turn to us when, once again, Big Government collapses in failure?

When our country is at stake, some of us come to grips with reality. And some of us change reality.

Richard A. Viguerie is the author of "Conservatives Betrayed: How George W. Bush and Other Big Government Republicans Hijacked the Conservative Cause."

[LibertyEagle]

HELL NO, it's not!

Nice find. Thanks Bradley.

[acptulsa]

The Light Brigade's charge was a success, and their losses weren't terribly bad. Tennyson's aggrandizement made for a more entertaining poem, but was no boon to historical accuracy.

Heart, humor and humility can see our own light brigade through this tumultuous time.

[asimplegirl]

What I don't get is you have conservative, republican, and GOP, all in the same sentences with we and our......

I think alot more of Ron's believers are libertarian than republican. I know for certain that every time I have mentioned his name around a republican they bad mouth him, and don't dare mention his name on a republican forum. You don't even have to say it, it will just come up.
Do I think they should give up? hmmm... hard question. Do you mean REAL TRUE conservatives, or do you mean republicans, neo-cons, Rockefeller republicans, RINOs?

Real conservatives, no, of course not. But the rest of 'em that want to get rid of rights, and add more laws while shouting for less government, and spewing hatred under the guise of the name of God? Yes. I wish they would give up.

(and I am a registered republican- but only because I have not changed it yet)

[LibertyEagle]

REAL TRUE conservatives

Yes. Many traditional conservatives left the Republican party long ago in disgust, but came back to vote for Ron Paul. Others have been propagandized by FOX News and the GOP talking heads at the top with regard to the WOT; they agree with Ron Paul on most everything else.

The reality is that there have been all kinds of people running around calling themselves "conservative", when they were really as you mentioned, neocons or Rockefeller Republicans. Just because they called themselves conservatives, does not mean that they were.


I think alot more of Ron's believers are libertarian than republican
Are you talking about Libertarians vs. Republicans, because it's not clear? If it's the political party you are talking about, most of the people who supported Ron Paul joined the Republican Party to vote in the primary and some are staying to take back the GOP. Small l libertarians, in addition to traditional conservatives are not limited to a specific political party. Also, small l libertarians and conservatives share a significant overlap in principles.

[heavenlyboy34]

Nice to see some sensible conservatives here :)

[LibertyEagle]

Nice to see some sensible conservatives here :)

You mean "sensible conservatives", as in Ron Paul himself? ;) Libertarians have tried to claim ownership of Ron Paul and his ideals since the very beginning of his campaign. :rolleyes:

[asimplegirl]

Just because they called themselves conservatives, does not mean that they were.

I have had to explain this to republicans so many times it is not funny. Conservative does not = Republican.

Some of them are so brainwashed by Fox that they actually think they ARE conservatives.


Are you talking about Libertarians vs. Republicans, because it's not clear. Because libertarians (small l), in addition to traditional conservatives are not limited to a specific political party. Also, small l libertarians and conservatives share a significant overlap in principles.

I just mean in principle...no small or capital l.


Libertarians have tried to claim ownership of Ron Paul since the very beginning of his campaign.

Well, as I said, alot of republicans don't want him. Check out some of their forums. I am a member of a couple. They will not accept him as such , and even they claim him as libertarian- and in principle he is..more so than modern republican on principle..

[HOLLYWOOD]

Some people think so. Mike Huckabee, the Baptist preacher and former Arkansas governor and presidential candidate, complained in May to the Huffington Post that the greatest threat to the GOP is "this new brand of libertarianism" that says "look, we want to cut taxes and eliminate government." That, Huckabee said, is "not an American message. It doesn't fly. People aren't going to buy that, because that's not the way we are as a people."

Huckabee the Hipocrite! The 2 faced Shill has been assimilated by the Rupert Murdock BORG, all for MONEY AND FAME. Mike Huckabee has always been for it, that is, for his own gain, and will use whatever means to advance.

Just like his manipulative predatory religious hound, Kenneth Copeland, Huckabee will play all cards on the people for advancement. Love the new BeeGee chalk white veneers HUCKSTER!

[Anti Federalist]

In a column this month in the New York Times, William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard -- one of the nation's top conservative publications -- called on conservatives to come to grips with the reality of Big Government. Big Government is inevitable, Kristol suggested; we should accept it and move on. After all, he wrote, "talk of small government may be music to conservative ears, but it's not to the public as a whole."

Nuts to Bill Kristol, back stabbing, limp wristed neocon jerk.

Why this man has any say so within republican political circles is beyond me.

Shifty, slimy, surreptitious scoundrel.

Too bad there wasn't a brick in that pie...
http://www.hoffmania.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/30/getaart.jpg

[LibertyEagle]

I just mean in principle...no small or capital l.
Well, maybe I still don't understand. Because it's mixing apples and oranges to compare small l libertarianism (a set of principles/philosophy) with the Republican Party (a political party). If you want to compare something, I guess we could compare traditional conservatism with libertarianism. But even there, there is a huge overlap in philosophy/principle.

Well, as I said, alot of republicans don't want him
And neither did some Libertarians.

Check out some of their forums. I am a member of a couple. They will not accept him as such , and even they claim him as libertarian- and in principle he is..more so than modern republican on principle..
I am aware of that, but you are mixing apples and oranges.

Why is there such a need to categorize?

You're new here, but we have hashed and re-hashed how the Republican party has always been comprised of big government one-worlders (Rockefeller Republicans) and traditional conservatives (libertarian-conservatives who advocate a small limited constitutional government and individual liberty). Then another flavor of big government one-worlders entered the mix -- the Trotsky loving former Democrats, the neoconservatives. The neoconservatives infiltrated the conservative movement and confused the heck out of people who were not taking the time to see what was really happening. These are some of the people that Ron Paul and the C4L are trying to wake up.

You know, the Libertarians have the same kind of thing going on in their own midst. They have their own flavor of big government folks, exemplified by the CATO Institute, who supported Giuliani in the last go round. ;)

[Anti Federalist]

Now that I've vented, there is the larger question of the article's premise.

All this talk about big government is meaningless. Big government is here, it's grown more rapidly under Bush than Clinton. It is everywhere, into everything.

The upside? It's broke. Badly.

The faster it runs itself off the cliff, the better off we all will be.

Keep looking at the Soviet example for things to come.

[Primbs]

Many rank and file republicans believe in small government. You talk to the average man on the street and many hate the high taxes.

It is just these particular "conservatives" who are pushing big government.

[Anti Federalist]

You're new here, but we have hashed and re-hashed how the Republican party has always been comprised of big government one-worlders (Rockefeller Republicans) and traditional conservatives. Then another flavor of big government one-worlders entered the mix -- the Trotsky loving former Democrats, the neoconservatives. The neoconservatives infiltrated the conservative movement and confused the heck out of people who were not taking the time to see what was really happening. These are some of the people that Ron Paul and the C4L is trying to wake up.

You know, the Libertarians have the same kind of thing going on in their own midst. They have their own flavor of big government folks, exemplified by the CATO Institute, who supported Giuliani in the last go round. ;)

Or run off.

Nicely put thumbnail...+1

[yokna7]

Bill Kristol is a scoundrel! He is the ideal neo-conservative. Hack. He wouldnt know conservatism if it kicked him in his tiny junk.

[The_Orlonater]

You mean "sensible conservatives", as in Ron Paul himself? ;) Libertarians have tried to claim ownership of Ron Paul and his ideals since the very beginning of his campaign. :rolleyes:

He is a libertarian.

Hello, he ran as one in 88 and is part of the Mises Institute.

[Theocrat]

The only conservatives who are still fighting against big government are in the third parties, such as the Constitution Party. In my opinion, that is where the banner will be raised to continue the battle against tyranny and immorality.

[asimplegirl]

He is a libertarian.

Hello, he ran as one in 88 and is part of the Mises Institute.

See, that's what I thought, and that he ran as a Republican this time round to be a little closer to the forefront, to have a little easier chance to win...considering it comes down to the two dem/repub nominees.

[dr. hfn]

never give up the fight. we need to adapt like we are doing now with our broad movement. new media, new organizations, new parties, new candidates, etc...

[priest_of_syrinx]

Now I can tell my parents EXACTLY why I hate Huckabee and Kristol.

They still just love them and gobble up what they say. :mad:

[angelatc]

From the LA Times. LOL!

That's like Israel Today asking "Is it time for the Palestinians to curl up and die?"

[Feenix566]

The American people didn't elect Barack Obama because they yearn for Bigger Government. They elected him because he's not Bush. Bush didn't stand for little government. Bush stood for war, torture, out of control spending, and the imperial presidency. The American people rejected him for that, and switched to the only alternative they had. If anything, this election proves that when the Republicans embrace a policy of Big Government, they get rejected by the voters.

[LibertyEagle]

He is a libertarian.

Hello, he ran as one in 88 and is part of the Mises Institute.
:rolleyes: Here we go again.

HELLO. He's been a Republican for 30 years and has supported the John Birch Society for just about as long.

I just had to say that to you, because it's stupid for any group to lay absolute claim to Ron Paul. He is his own man. Yes, he's a libertarian; he's also a traditional conservative; a Libertarian; a Republican; a constitutionalist and a Christian. We are ALL, Ron Paul.

EDIT: Each of these groups are not mutually-exclusive, you know. There are a great deal of shared principles. If we could only focus on those, maybe, just maybe, we could work together long enough to stop these assholes who are selling out our country. We can duke out the rest after that, IF we get that far, that is. But, if we don't start pulling together better and damn quick, we're ALL going to be SOL. Capiche?

[asimplegirl]

HELLO. He's been a Republican for 30 years


I just had to say that to you, because it's stupid for any group to lay absolute claim to Ron Paul.

I think you may have just canceled yourself out, lol.

[LibertyEagle]

I think you may have just canceled yourself out, lol.

Nope. If you're talking about my response to the "sensible conservative" post, yes, I should have elaborated. Which I hope I did in my last post.

[asimplegirl]

yeah, you did..but you should lighten up..the lol at the end, signifies that I was laughing and not serious.

I was referring to you to you claiming that he is Repub, then claiming that no one can claim him..

You do not have to think I am being serious, i was kiddin' with you.

[LibertyEagle]

Sorry, I don't have much of a sense of humor while Bloomberg is on in the background and I'm watching the country that I love so much, self-destruct. And I'm wondering when we are going to start pulling together to take back our country, instead of infighting and just bitching and moaning.

[liberteebell]

the american people didn't elect barack obama because they yearn for bigger government. They elected him because he's not bush. Bush didn't stand for little government. Bush stood for war, torture, out of control spending, and the imperial presidency. The american people rejected him for that, and switched to the only alternative they had. If anything, this election proves that when the republicans embrace a policy of big government, they get rejected by the voters.


qft!!!! :d

[liberteebell]

Sorry, I don't have much of a sense of humor while Bloomberg is on in the background and I'm watching the country that I love so much, self-destruct. And I'm wondering when we are going to start pulling together to take back our country, instead of infighting and just bitching and moaning.

It would help tremendously if people would quit expending their energy trying to pigeonhole others into collectives (libertarians, Libertarians, republicans, conservatives and so on) and instead work to make changes in our own backyards, regardless of labels.

In other words, talk to your friends, family and neighbors, run for local office, help other liberty-oriented people get into office. I frankly couldn't care less what corrupt party one belongs to; only that they're a friend of Liberty.

[Josh_LA]

Conservatives were never for small government. They're only for small government when it's atheists and socialists in power. Hypocritical conservatives would love to have Fascism and collectivism if it's for their good, or they're the oppressors.

But if you want to fight big brother and big government, I think the best thing to do is put on your aluminum foil hat and hide in middle America. No RFID, no internet neutrality, no taxes for roads, not cell phone tapping.

[asimplegirl]

Or, you guys could just come to my house, lol.

As long as you can stand extreme weather, be it cold or hot, and humidity that does not drop below 90%.:)

No road to even get to my house. No phone. Plenty guns and ammo. Food that grazes 50 ft out the kitchen window... ya'll comin'?

[LibertyEagle]

It would help tremendously if people would quit expending their energy trying to pigeonhole others into collectives (libertarians, Libertarians, republicans, conservatives and so on) and instead work to make changes in our own backyards, regardless of labels.

In other words, talk to your friends, family and neighbors, run for local office, help other liberty-oriented people get into office. I frankly couldn't care less what corrupt party one belongs to; only that they're a friend of Liberty.

That was not my intent at all. In fact it was the opposite. But yes, I agree with you.

[LibertyEagle]

Conservatives were never for small government. They're only for small government when it's atheists and socialists in power. Hypocritical conservatives would love to have Fascism and collectivism if it's for their good, or they're the oppressors.

Well, since I consider myself a traditional conservative, I'm here to tell you that you're flat out WRONG.

[Andrew-Austin]

Or, you guys could just come to my house, lol.

As long as you can stand extreme weather, be it cold or hot, and humidity that does not drop below 90%.:)

No road to even get to my house. No phone. Plenty guns and ammo. Food that grazes 50 ft out the kitchen window... ya'll comin'?

Give me a map. If SHTF and you have a farm I'll be an indentured servant.

[lodge939]

Yes. Many traditional conservatives left the Republican party long ago in disgust, but came back to vote for Ron Paul. Others have been propagandized by FOX News and the GOP talking heads at the top with regard to the WOT; they agree with Ron Paul on most everything else.

how often did we hear this in the primaries "I love him on domestic policy, but the country would be destroyed if we followed his unrealistic foreign policy"

The wisdom of non-intervention needs to become self evident before we win over those doubters, I fear

[asimplegirl]

Give me a map. If SHTF and you have a farm I'll be an indentured servant.

No farms, just lots of water in the form of creeks, lakes, Mississippi and red river, swamps, and tons and tons of trees.

Ground inside the woods where my house is is perfect for planting, dark and wet, and there is food EVERYWHERE, I mean dang, this is Louisiana, lol. we aren't known as sportsman's paradise for nothing, right?

[xd9fan]

No its time for the GOP at large to realize that Bush and the rino's in Congress set the movement back years if not decades.

Limited Govt being the best form of Govt will never die. America can fail.

[klamath]

Or, you guys could just come to my house, lol.

As long as you can stand extreme weather, be it cold or hot, and humidity that does not drop below 90%.:)

No road to even get to my house. No phone. Plenty guns and ammo. Food that grazes 50 ft out the kitchen window... ya'll comin'?

Sattelite internet?

[LibertyEagle]

how often did we hear this in the primaries "I love him on domestic policy, but the country would be destroyed if we followed his unrealistic foreign policy"

The wisdom of non-intervention needs to become self evident before we win over those doubters, I fear

Yup. But, as the economy totally implodes, I doubt these chest-pounders will be NEARLY as concerned about chasing "terrists" ;)

[asimplegirl]

Sattelite internet?

nope..just cable...luckily, we can somehow get that back here, lol.

[klamath]

nope..just cable...luckily, we can somehow get that back here, lol.
what did they do, string the cable from swamp boats?:D

[A. Havnes]

Huckabee doesn't seem to realise that Ron Paul could actually help boost him image if only Huckabee wouldn't slam him. Libertarians don't want to overthrow government, anarchists do.

Granted, I believe Huckabee was a bit more conservative than most of the republicans running, but Ron Paul has them all beat. However, he promised more change than most people are willing to strive for, and thus the republicans mostly disowned him.

I personally call myself a libertarian more now than a republican, though I'm technically registered as republican. More people know what a republican is than a libertarian, so I just tell people I'm specifically a Ron Paul Republican.


Now I can tell my parents EXACTLY why I hate Huckabee and Kristol.

They still just love them and gobble up what they say. :mad:

LOL I know the feeling. My mom supports Ron Paul (even though she's not totally sure what she thinks of the War on Terror), but my grandma is a huge Huckabee fan. She specifically asked for his new book for Christmas, and I got it for her online. I almost bundled it with Dr. Paul's book, but didn't.

I wish I did now, because she decided to tease me at dinner the other day by saying, "It's such a good book, you'll have to read it when I'm done!" *pause* "Then again maybe not, because he kind of scolds Paul every once in a while." :mad:

Oh well. She's old, a bit senile, and I should be nice to her. She calls Huckabee "her man". Poor Grandpa...

[heavenlyboy34]

Well, since I consider myself a traditional conservative, I'm here to tell you that you're flat out WRONG.

I think he's wrong too. He confuses neoconservatives like Limbaugh with classical conservatives. :p I don't care for either myself, but there is plainly a difference. :)

[asimplegirl]

what did they do, string the cable from swamp boats?:D

Nah, I just left it up to the cable company.lol.

[Josh_LA]

Well, since I consider myself a traditional conservative, I'm here to tell you that you're flat out WRONG.

Your desired government is still bigger than mine (and it's not your fault, I'm an extremist), so I'm not flat out wrong, or you're not the conservatives I'm referring to (no true Scotsman)

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Truth Warrior]

They might as well they lost the fight in a unanimous decision. :rolleyes:

BIG GOVERNMENT 15, conservatives ZIP

Of course, being "conservatives", now they gotta conserve BIG GOVERNMENT. :D

[LibertyEagle]

Your desired government is still bigger than mine (and it's not your fault, I'm an extremist), so I'm not flat out wrong, or you're not the conservatives I'm referring to (no true Scotsman)

Josh, you have stated elsewhere that you are an Anarchist, so you desire no government at all.

Traditional conservatives are libertarian-conservatives, who believe in things like:
- limited constitutional government
- personal privacy
- personal responsibility
- fiscal responsibility in government
- a strong national defense (not offense)
- individual liberty

I have no idea who you are talking about, no.

[LibertyEagle]

They might as well they lost the fight in a unanimous decision. :rolleyes:

BIG GOVERNMENT 15, conservatives ZIP
If there weren't people like us who have been fighting these one-worlder jerkoffs for decades, our country would have fallen long ago.


Of course, being "conservatives", now they gotta conserve BIG GOVERNMENT. :D

Not true at all. But then again, you just seem to love to take pot shots at anyone who is taking action to address what is going on. :rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

If there weren't people like us who have been fighting these one-worlder jerkoffs for decades, our country would have fallen long ago.

Personally, I think it's the 200,000,000 firearms in private hands that have saved us, so far, in spite of your BEST STATIST efforts.


Not true at all. But then again, you just seem to love to take pot shots at anyone who is taking action to address what is going on. :rolleyes:

What ever you're doin', IT AIN'T WORKIN'. :p

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative)



Thank you. May I have another?

[LibertyEagle]

Thank you. May I have another?

Rebuttal to your latest round of pot shots?

As always --- UP TO YOU.

[Truth Warrior]

Rebuttal to your latest round of pot shots?

As always --- UP TO YOU.

:rolleyes: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Rebuttal (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Rebuttal)


Nope. Don't think so, but thanks for participating. :)

:D

[Truth Warrior]

The status quo sucks.
George Carlin

[Fox McCloud]

sadly, these days, I try to avoid the term "conservative" or "Republican" when mentioning my ideals and ideologies....Bush (and others) did such a good job of destroying and distorting the terms, and often in conversation, if the term is mentioned, people instantly down your ideas because of the "Conservative" or "Republican" label.

So I do one of several things--I tell them I'm an independent or that I have libertarian beliefs (or that I am, in fact, a Libertarian)....this usually gets a "interesting" or they don't know what it is...which is better than "uh....Republican...".

I recall Ron being shut-down once before I could even start talking about his policies, merely because the first question out of their mouth when I mentioned his name was "which party?"

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt