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RCA
12-27-2008, 12:37 AM
Why are we faced with the dichotomy of indoctrination via the state or the church? What about free-enterprise schools?

:confused:

UnReconstructed
12-27-2008, 12:57 AM
You should start one in your area. I think that private schools (that don't accept money from the government including vouchers) are a result of the market... even if they are church based.

What? Christians can't participate in the market?

RCA
12-27-2008, 01:30 AM
I didn't say they couldn't participate. I said why do ONLY religious schools choose to participate and not non-religious schools.

yongrel
12-27-2008, 01:32 AM
There's very little market for a nonreligious private school that is affordable to the middle class here in America, thanks to public schools.

WRellim
12-27-2008, 03:06 AM
Why are we faced with the dichotomy of indoctrination via the state or the church? What about free-enterprise schools?

:confused:

Youngrel's statement pretty much sums it up.


There's very little market for a nonreligious private school that is affordable to the middle class here in America, thanks to public schools.

Point being that because the entire public is already being charged for "public" schooling via property and other taxes -- private schools have to compete on a difficult and UN-level playing field for a VERY limited market. Add in the fact that because of various state licensing requirements and the existence of a virtual "monopoly" in teacher's unions, and you end up with potential employee costs (salary plus benefits) being abnormally high.

On the "high-end" (luxury) of the market -- there are actually quite a few non-denominational schools (and many that were initially founded by churches have gained a significant degree of independence due to bequests, foundations, and other "non-church" funding sources) -- think Phillips Academy, Andover, Sidwell Friends, etc.

Plus there are a significant number of private military schools.

And you can add in a few handfuls of "specialty" schools (environmental, science-based, etc.) scattered around the country as well.

Aggregate all of that together, and the room for "growth" in the private schooling market is currently very limited, even with an innovative schools (at least in the K-12 market); and thus there is only a small potential for rather abysmally low returns on any investment (initial AND continuing investment are abnormal and there is high liability exposure as well -- understandably so, as people tend to sue over the least problems with regard to their children).


The end result is that (for the majority of the middle and lower economic classes) there virtually MUST be a "charity" aspect that drives people to sacrifice -- either in the form of donations to support the school; and/or in the form of teachers and administrators accepting lower salaries and/or limited careers. Religion and faith seem to be better "motivators" for all of those things, especially the "sacrificial" aspect. (Note: There ARE exceptions -- The Conserve School (http://www.conserveschool.org) here in Wisconsin is but one example; but they ARE the exception; most qualified "teachers" seek higher pay/benefits in public schools, or they switch to some other career where they can make more money and avoid all of the difficulties of teaching.)




There ARE other possibilities -- one's that aren't so directly "competing" with public schools. With a group of others, I looked into this "issue" a few years back (late 80's early 90's) -- from a entrepreneurial standpoint could we see a way to build a successful and "franchise-type" business model, one that could enter a community on a small scale (low investment/risk) and then potentially grow (bootstrap) once established.

The best scenario we felt that could be a viable "model" would be to begin by offer tutoring or small group work as short-sessions on specific subjects, which would then allow tapping into the "home schooling" movement as well as possibly serving as an adjunct to parents with students in public/private schools (the bad side of this would be that one would most likely get the worst/most desperate of the remedial students; hence clientele would have unrealistic expectations and thus be high-risk for dissatisfaction -- since better instruction will NOT cure all ills, especially once they have progressed for years and become deep-seated -- in other words we wouldn't be getting the "prodigy" kids or the "autodidacts" as they don't need such services). Maintaining a HIGH QUALITY service with skilled employees -- much less doing so at a low enough cost to be profitable -- would be difficult given such a client base, especially as it was likely to be rather volatile.

The other option/aspect would have been to try to tap into the "daycare" and preschool markets and try to build up from there (bootstrap) through elementary school years, etc. (which might be feasible if one could do multiple grades in one classroom, but that is significantly contrary to what people "expect" since they have become so inured to the current "grade" system of public schooling {emulated by virtually ALL schools, public or private -- no one breaks that "model" despite its being of dubious merit & origin}.)

There is also the generally accepted concept that "socialization" and "community" is more important than education (meaning all of the "extracurricular" sports and other activities which are inordinately expensive to provide).

Plus there was the inherent problem that -- let's be honest, here -- MOST parents are looking for 40+hr a week "babysitting" service much more than they are really seeking actual education; and pricing is critical (especially once you get to normal school age, you're competing against "free" {or "already paid for"} -- see Gresham's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_Law) for which wins in that scenario.)



Turns out that what we DID come up with as a viable possibility (pre-school & tutoring) was pretty much a copy of what the then existing private schooling companies offered.

For example the "Kindercare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KinderCare_Learning_Centers)" and "The Sylvan Learning Centers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvan_Learning)" franchises already had (at the time) both of those things in place (and they have swallowed up a lot of the previous competition). They have since become separate companies, and have grown phenomenally (to the point that just about everywhere has one or the other in a nearby community, and the "KinderCare" building is almost as ubiquitous and recognizable as Walgreens). And although some disparage Sylvan as a "test prep" that is only one of their services. So we would have had competition (from a NASDAQ listed company no less) right from the start... that basically made it a no-go (at the time -- I wonder now that the Internet is available if the higher grades couldn't be made more cost-effective?)

Those are both BIG time businesses now, so I know our concept was sound. (KinderCare alone has annual revenues of OVER a BILLION dollars a year; and Sylvan has over 1,000 locations {franchise fees are about 50K per location, but since it's privately owned revenue is unknown}.)

liberteebell
12-27-2008, 07:22 AM
I didn't say they couldn't participate. I said why do ONLY religious schools choose to participate and not non-religious schools.

Maybe because of the fact that churches are tax exempt and thus have a little more money laying around to start things up?

P.S. My experience is that some independent private schools are little more than publik skools that you get to pay for. Same politically correct textbooks, same marxist indoctrination, same stoopid neo-math programs, same everybody will conform or else; just maybe more rigorous academically.

I've been looking around for something different for my son who is a problem child because he doesn't conform to being what amounts to being a little girl all day. He's bright but finds school BO-RING and he's failing everything. Well, everything but civics, in which he received an A because, in his words, he was allowed to give his opinion (in other words, the class was very interactive and engaging; good teacher too!).

The school's answer to my son's problems? Ritalin. Nothankyouvverymuch!!! So I'm done. Homeschool is probably in his very near future. If I had the funds and wherewithal, I'd start a boy's school with plenty of time for recess, lots of hands-on learning, + all the things boys like to do. In speaking with other parents of boys, I'm finding that I'm not alone; just that people don't like to talk about it because it's somehow admitting parental failure. :confused:

heavenlyboy34
12-27-2008, 12:00 PM
Maybe because of the fact that churches are tax exempt and thus have a little more money laying around to start things up?

P.S. My experience is that some independent private schools are little more than publik skools that you get to pay for. Same politically correct textbooks, same marxist indoctrination, same stoopid neo-math programs, same everybody will conform or else; just maybe more rigorous academically.

I've been looking around for something different for my son who is a problem child because he doesn't conform to being what amounts to being a little girl all day. He's bright but finds school BO-RING and he's failing everything. Well, everything but civics, in which he received an A because, in his words, he was allowed to give his opinion (in other words, the class was very interactive and engaging; good teacher too!).

The school's answer to my son's problems? Ritalin. Nothankyouvverymuch!!! So I'm done. Homeschool is probably in his very near future. If I had the funds and wherewithal, I'd start a boy's school with plenty of time for recess, lots of hands-on learning, + all the things boys like to do. In speaking with other parents of boys, I'm finding that I'm not alone; just that people don't like to talk about it because it's somehow admitting parental failure. :confused:

Yay! Homeschool mommies rock! :)

pinkmandy
12-27-2008, 01:03 PM
Maybe because of the fact that churches are tax exempt and thus have a little more money laying around to start things up?

P.S. My experience is that some independent private schools are little more than publik skools that you get to pay for. Same politically correct textbooks, same marxist indoctrination, same stoopid neo-math programs, same everybody will conform or else; just maybe more rigorous academically.

I've been looking around for something different for my son who is a problem child because he doesn't conform to being what amounts to being a little girl all day. He's bright but finds school BO-RING and he's failing everything. Well, everything but civics, in which he received an A because, in his words, he was allowed to give his opinion (in other words, the class was very interactive and engaging; good teacher too!).

The school's answer to my son's problems? Ritalin. Nothankyouvverymuch!!! So I'm done. Homeschool is probably in his very near future. If I had the funds and wherewithal, I'd start a boy's school with plenty of time for recess, lots of hands-on learning, + all the things boys like to do. In speaking with other parents of boys, I'm finding that I'm not alone; just that people don't like to talk about it because it's somehow admitting parental failure. :confused:

Totally agree.

I took my ds out when he was 5 because his teacher suggested Ritalin among other issues. He was so bored in school and he doesn't make a very good girl. :p Been homeschooling ever since- he's 11 now and doing very well. His brother is 7 and has never been to school and has no desire to go. Even though my oldest was only in school for a few months, it took about a year for him to "unlearn" all the crap from attitude and manners to reading phonetically vs. memorizing words as the school was teaching him to do.

Homeschooling is awesome! I've read, though, that for every year your child has been in school you should give them a month of "nothing" to allow them to adjust and decompress. Google decompressing and homeschooling- lots of info there.

For those looking for other options, check out Waldorf or Montessori schools. :D

UnReconstructed
12-27-2008, 04:23 PM
This is the home-school curriculum we use

http://www.accelerated-achievement.com/

nate895
12-27-2008, 04:48 PM
This is the home-school curriculum we use

http://www.accelerated-achievement.com/

Isn't the CFL going to produce a home school curriculum?

liberteebell
12-27-2008, 07:53 PM
Yay! Homeschool mommies rock! :)




Totally agree.

I took my ds out when he was 5 because his teacher suggested Ritalin among other issues. He was so bored in school and he doesn't make a very good girl. :p Been homeschooling ever since- he's 11 now and doing very well. His brother is 7 and has never been to school and has no desire to go. Even though my oldest was only in school for a few months, it took about a year for him to "unlearn" all the crap from attitude and manners to reading phonetically vs. memorizing words as the school was teaching him to do.

Homeschooling is awesome! I've read, though, that for every year your child has been in school you should give them a month of "nothing" to allow them to adjust and decompress. Google decompressing and homeschooling- lots of info there.

For those looking for other options, check out Waldorf or Montessori schools. :D

Thank you for the encouragement and information. Believe me, I'm somewhat terrified of taking on this awesome responsibility but I simply can't let my son go on in this horrible environment. Even on Christmas break, he's stressed out about school. :(

liberteebell
12-27-2008, 07:55 PM
This is the home-school curriculum we use

http://www.accelerated-achievement.com/

Thank you, I like this better than most of the other curricula I've reviewed.

wd4freedom
12-27-2008, 08:08 PM
Why are we faced with the dichotomy of indoctrination via the state or the church? What about free-enterprise schools?

:confused:

The motivator behind any private school is parents with money (this is the free market). These parents with money overwhelmingly associate themselves to a moral foundation of beliefs (i.e. a church sponsored school or at a minimum they will find some type of "be good to people religious school").

I am not aware of a significant market of parents in the USA who would pay to send their children to a non-religious private school. Public schools fill this niche quite well.

Conservative Christian
01-19-2009, 03:45 AM
P.S. My experience is that some independent private schools are little more than publik skools that you get to pay for. Same politically correct textbooks, same marxist indoctrination, same stoopid neo-math programs, same everybody will conform or else; just maybe more rigorous academically.

I agree.

There are a few private secular schools in my area, and they definitely fit your description.


.

heavenlyboy34
01-19-2009, 09:59 AM
I agree.

There are a few private secular schools in my area, and they definitely fit your description.


.

Bummer about the poor quality of schools nowadays. :( From the stories I've heard around RPF, it seems to be homeschoolers FTW. :D:)

heavenlyboy34
01-19-2009, 10:00 AM
Thank you for the encouragement and information. Believe me, I'm somewhat terrified of taking on this awesome responsibility but I simply can't let my son go on in this horrible environment. Even on Christmas break, he's stressed out about school. :(

Best of luck to y'all! ~hugs~ :D:)

M House
01-19-2009, 11:46 AM
Public school plus educational effort and input from the actual parents always seemed like the best approach. I do not like the idea of supporting tax exempt churches to monopolize private education either. The idea of the church providing everyone's education seems a bit too 300 hundred years ago. Though in their defense, I'm sure there are some good religious private schools with an excellent curriculum.

roho76
01-19-2009, 12:00 PM
We pulled our daughter out of public schools and she attends a charter now. It's much better. They encourage family participation in and out of class and her teachers are very communicative about the goings on. Our other daughter goes to a Montessori and I am very happy with that.

heavenlyboy34
01-19-2009, 12:31 PM
Public school plus educational effort and input from the actual parents always seemed like the best approach. I do not like the idea of supporting tax exempt churches to monopolize private education either. The idea of the church providing everyone's education seems a bit too 300 hundred years ago. Though in their defense, I'm sure there are some good religious private schools with an excellent curriculum.

Government school is more accurate. ;):p

M House
01-19-2009, 12:41 PM
Sorta but you would've paid for them one way or another.

heavenlyboy34
01-19-2009, 01:20 PM
Sorta but you would've paid for them one way or another.

Yep. The state's way is coercive, the individual way is voluntary. Which is more moral/appropriate for real humans? I say the latter. :D

Fox McCloud
01-19-2009, 01:40 PM
there's always home-schooling *shrug*.

Even though I'm a firm believer in Christ, I don't fully like it either; ultimately, the schools, from what I've seen, just teach the kids to be legalistic and tend to shelter the kids from everything....when the kids graduate and go out into the real world, sometimes the effects can be traumatic to the student or the student could wind up getting himself involved in a lot of things he shouldn't have because of these "new and exciting things".

that said, many are quite accelerated and they typically do much better than public schools...

home-schooling still allows you to be more flexible though.

GBurr
02-26-2009, 03:35 PM
Churches subsidize religious schools in order to keep tuition down. The schools that exist on their own are mostly prep schools. The preps schools are more liberal minded than public schools.