Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department

[rational thinker]

http://tinyurl.com/2v97rh

[rational thinker]

How many libertarians does it take to screw in a light bulb?


























None! They wait for the invisible hand to do it for them.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Mmmmm dark - good! :rolleyes:

-t

[RonPaulVolunteer]

There is no need for a govt run Fire Dept. They absolutely can be privatized.

[heavenlyboy34]

How many libertarians does it take to screw in a light bulb?
None! They wait for the invisible hand to do it for them.

It takes a little longer than letting the gov'ment do it, but it works better! ;):D

[heavenlyboy34]

there is no need for a govt run fire dept. They absolutely can be privatized.

qft!! :d

[tangent4ronpaul]

qft!! :d

And Quantum Field Theory has what to do with this discussion? - oh yeah - the "invisible hand"....

please elaborate - fascinating topic...

-t

[Captain Bryan]

http://tinyurl.com/2v97rh
lol, cute.

[BeFranklin]

There is no need for a govt run Fire Dept. They absolutely can be privatized.

There used to be alot of volunteer fire departments, and there are still many. Benjamin Franklin founded one. You can see one in the 1960s cartoon The Flintstones too, so they weren't rare even recently.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3A*&q=volunteer+fire+departments

[Natalie]

"Although the community would do better to rely on an efficient, free-market fire-fighting service, the fact is that expensive, unnecessary public fire departments do exist," Jacobs said. "Also, my house was burning down."

Too cute. I had a good chuckle.

[TastyWheat]

The fire department next to my neighborhood is volunteer.

[SamuraisWisdom]

Why the hell would you want to privatize fire departments? What, are you going to pay a monthly fee to them, and if you don't well too bad your house burns down? What about if your house is on fire, but you didn't pay the fire department then the fire spreads to someone else's house and someone gets hurt? There's some things that are better off socialized. Fire departments and police forces are definitely two of them.

[nate895]

Why the hell would you want to privatize fire departments? What, are you going to pay a monthly fee to them, and if you don't well too bad your house burns down? What about if your house is on fire, but you didn't pay the fire department then the fire spreads to someone else's house and someone gets hurt? There's some things that are better off socialized. Fire departments and police forces are definitely two of them.

There is one thing governments are good at: fighting wars. Fighting a fire is pretty similar to fighting a war.

[tangent4ronpaul]

There used to be alot of volunteer fire departments, and there are still many. Benjamin Franklin founded one. You can see one in the 1960s cartoon The Flintstones too, so they weren't rare even recently.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3A*&q=volunteer+fire+departments

I used to work, er "volunteer" for one. Around here now (diff state) most firefighters and EMS are volunteers - but there are some paid ppl.

-t

[SamuraisWisdom]

There is one thing governments are good at: fighting wars. Fighting a fire is pretty similar to fighting a war.

No it isn't.

[nate895]

No it isn't.

What I meant to say is that they are good at fighting fires because both require central direction. You don't fight fires or wars by committee, even if it is a free market committee made up of everyone.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Why the hell would you want to privatize fire departments? What, are you going to pay a monthly fee to them, and if you don't well too bad your house burns down? What about if your house is on fire, but you didn't pay the fire department then the fire spreads to someone else's house and someone gets hurt? There's some things that are better off socialized. Fire departments and police forces are definitely two of them.

So long as never the two shall meet. Out here, the EMS choppers are staffed by cops. Can you say "conflict of interest"? - I thought you could....

-t

[SamuraisWisdom]

What I meant to say is that they are good at fighting fires because both require central direction. You don't fight fires or wars by committee, even if it is a free market committee made up of everyone.

Ah ok, I couldn't tell if you were backing up my point or not, but I see what you're saying now.

[Bruno]

CHEYENNE, WY—After attempting to contain a living-room blaze started by a cigarette, card-carrying Libertarian Trent Jacobs reluctantly called the Cheyenne Fire Department Monday. "Although the community would do better to rely on an efficient, free-market fire-fighting service, the fact is that expensive, unnecessary public fire departments do exist," Jacobs said. "Also, my house was burning down."
Jacobs did not offer to pay firefighters for their service.

Why should he? He already pays for those services through the property taxes forced onto him with penalty of seizure of his home for non-payment.

[AutoDas]

What I meant to say is that they are good at fighting fires because both require central direction. You don't fight fires or wars by committee, even if it is a free market committee made up of everyone.

The government is also great at providing healthcare. What happens if you catch a cold and you infect your whole household and then they transmit the disease? The world economy would come to a stand still. Face it, Government is great at socializing healthcare better than private enterprise.

[Conza88]

Why the hell would you want to privatize fire departments? What, are you going to pay a monthly fee to them, and if you don't well too bad your house burns down? What about if your house is on fire, but you didn't pay the fire department then the fire spreads to someone else's house and someone gets hurt? There's some things that are better off socialized. Fire departments and police forces are definitely two of them.

There is NOTHING that is better off socialized.

Why would you want to privatize fire putting out services? UUUUummmmmmm because they would be more EFFICIENT & EFFECTIVE. Just like every single comparison between free market vs. government / state run services known to man.

And no nate, even wars - private orgs are better. i.e mercenaries used to be hired back in the day with monarchy's. The people wouldn't even participate - it would be one band of hired soldiers vs another...

Well what do you know.. the STATE comes along and believes you are representative to IT.. you can be CONSCRIPTED to fight ITS wars...

The thing is, there is no incentive for private organizations to fight eachother - WAR destroys property and the value of land. They are liable for it.

As for this fire business... it would be part of your insurance package.. fire service coverage.

S-I-M-P-L-E...

- IS the insurance company going to want to PAY for an ENTIRE BURNT DOWN HOUSE, or just one small room or bit of carpet?

Yeah, let me know when you've figured that out... :rolleyes:

[rockandrollsouls]

You guys realize that's an onion article, right?

Anyway, I think the fire fighting profession could and should be privatized...but this could vary by state, of course. And, these variations by state or township eventually weed out the bad solutions. My vote is for privatization, but all of the states or townships testing their methods could discover something else...I don't know. Let the market work.

[constitutional]

You got me with tinyurl. I didn't realize it was onion until I read that little paragraph and sat confused for few seconds.

[literatim]

I've never had an issue with city fire departments.

[RevolutionSD]

Having fire departments funded by tax (stolen) money is no different than the collectivism we see at the federal level. Of course we could figure out how to fight fires without government coercion. Private fire fighting services would likely be much more effective and cost-efficient than what we have now, and, you wouldn't have to point guns to people's heads to pay for it.

[Elwar]

I lived in a county where the fire department was private. When I moved into my house they told me about the private garbage service and how the private fire department works.

Basically you pay the fire department a monthly fee (I think it was like $20) for their service. If you did not pay that fee and they had to come out to put out a fire they would charge you for that service (For a full out fire it was about $2,000, with a few fees for more minor things).

Garbage service was a monthly fee of about $17. There were a lot of companies and lots of competition. My garbage service was great, they dropped off a barrel for me, emptied it twice a week and were very helpful for any problems I had. I saw one guy who bought a truck and went around town with about 6 large barrels on the back. He'd drop off an empty and pick up a full one, then go empty them at the dump. Entrepenurial spirit if I've ever seen it.

Do not jump to the conclusion that the government is necessary for any service. Think outside of the box people.

[liberteebell]

All about privatization but if I could get my city to quit taxing me for all the other unnecessary junk for which I'm taxed, I'd gladly pay taxes for the Fire Department. At least they do something worthwhile and in my city, they actually do a good job.

[rockandrollsouls]

I lived in a county where the fire department was private. When I moved into my house they told me about the private garbage service and how the private fire department works.

Basically you pay the fire department a monthly fee (I think it was like $20) for their service. If you did not pay that fee and they had to come out to put out a fire they would charge you for that service (For a full out fire it was about $2,000, with a few fees for more minor things).

Garbage service was a monthly fee of about $17. There were a lot of companies and lots of competition. My garbage service was great, they dropped off a barrel for me, emptied it twice a week and were very helpful for any problems I had. I saw one guy who bought a truck and went around town with about 6 large barrels on the back. He'd drop off an empty and pick up a full one, then go empty them at the dump. Entrepenurial spirit if I've ever seen it.

Do not jump to the conclusion that the government is necessary for any service. Think outside of the box people.

That sounds really awesome! Where was this?

Try living in NJ where you are forced to use their services, pay absurd tolls, hook up to their city water, buy a certain sized trashcan for their garbage service, etc etc.

I'm fairly positive if they let people keep their money and pay for the services directly in the marketplace rather than through the government we'd have less waist and more efficient services!

[rational thinker]

I lived in a county where the fire department was private. When I moved into my house they told me about the private garbage service and how the private fire department works.

Basically you pay the fire department a monthly fee (I think it was like $20) for their service. If you did not pay that fee and they had to come out to put out a fire they would charge you for that service (For a full out fire it was about $2,000, with a few fees for more minor things).

Garbage service was a monthly fee of about $17. There were a lot of companies and lots of competition. My garbage service was great, they dropped off a barrel for me, emptied it twice a week and were very helpful for any problems I had. I saw one guy who bought a truck and went around town with about 6 large barrels on the back. He'd drop off an empty and pick up a full one, then go empty them at the dump. Entrepenurial spirit if I've ever seen it.

Do not jump to the conclusion that the government is necessary for any service. Think outside of the box people.

But what about people who struggle to get bread on the table? How are they supposed to pay for such services monthly?

[dannno]

But what about people who struggle to get bread on the table? How are they supposed to pay for such services monthly?

They probably save more than $20/month on their relatively lower sales tax.

[Conza88]

But what about people who struggle to get bread on the table? How are they supposed to pay for such services monthly?

You BLAME the STATE for its INCOME tax. Because THEY are the PROBLEM, NOONE else. :)

If they can't pay it - then they don't. They could take it to the dump themselves for all I care. :rolleyes:

[rockandrollsouls]

But what about people who struggle to get bread on the table? How are they supposed to pay for such services monthly?

Where do you think your tax money goes? I wager if you'd get rid of all of the absurd taxes we pay, paying for your garbage service would be a fraction of what it is now factored into your taxes!

Do it this way, keep your money, and put more bread on the table.

Also, though this may sound insensitive, the poverty thing is overdone, and it's directly tied to welfare. Some of these people that can't get bread on the table have nice TVs, Cars, and video games :rolleyes: If you get rid of the welfare state and the government stops stealing our money and redistributing it we'd all be better off.

[Elwar]

That sounds really awesome! Where was this?


It was Columbia County, Georgia. It's interesting because the county right next to us brought in "public garbage service" because of the people who just couldn't afford the $17 a month...
I'd hear all sorts of stories on the news all the time about how bad the garbage service was and how they'd leave streets with no collection for weeks. Quite stupid really.

As for the people who are struggling to put food on the table...I actually opted not to pay the $20 a month for "fire insurance". Considering they only charged $2,000 to put out a fire I was basically betting that my house would not catch fire in the next 8 years or so. And if it did, I figure insurance would probably cover the $2k.

Oh ya, our ambulances were private as well. I think it was like $150 each time they had to come out and take you to the hospital.

Oh ya, and taxes were quite low. I think I paid about $750 per year in taxes on an $85k house. The county was very "Republican"...taxes were low, there was a lot of privatization, the focus of the money was schools, cops and jails. The county was the second best as far as schools in GA (not that that's saying much) and driving the 2-3 miles to work I would typically pass about 5 police cars. And the good ol' boy system was alive and well.

[rockandrollsouls]

It was Columbia County, Georgia. It's interesting because the county right next to us brought in "public garbage service" because of the people who just couldn't afford the $17 a month...
I'd hear all sorts of stories on the news all the time about how bad the garbage service was and how they'd leave streets with no collection for weeks. Quite stupid really.

As for the people who are struggling to put food on the table...I actually opted not to pay the $20 a month for "fire insurance". Considering they only charged $2,000 to put out a fire I was basically betting that my house would not catch fire in the next 8 years or so. And if it did, I figure insurance would probably cover the $2k.

Oh ya, our ambulances were private as well. I think it was like $150 each time they had to come out and take you to the hospital.

Oh ya, and taxes were quite low. I think I paid about $750 per year in taxes on an $85k house. The county was very "Republican"...taxes were low, there was a lot of privatization, the focus of the money was schools, cops and jails. The county was the second best as far as schools in GA (not that that's saying much) and driving the 2-3 miles to work I would typically pass about 5 police cars. And the good ol' boy system was alive and well.

That sounds very attractive...to me at least! I'd wager that is no longer the case in Columbia County, GA? What was their sales tax like?

[Elwar]

That sounds very attractive...to me at least! I'd wager that is no longer the case in Columbia County, GA? What was their sales tax like?

I moved, so I have no idea what's come of it. I don't recall there being a county sales tax...I think there was one in the county next to us...Richmond county.

Georgia does have a state income tax though.

I prefer it down here in Florida...no state income tax but high property and sales taxes. We have private garbage service here as well (though the county sets the price).

[mconder]

Jacobs did not offer to pay firefighters for their service.

Of course he didn't. He's already paying for it. I suppose this was supposed to be some sort of jab at Libertarians for not being consistent.

[rockandrollsouls]

Of course he didn't. He's already paying for it. I suppose this was supposed to be some sort of jab at Libertarians for not being consistent.

Did you bother to read the article source or what's been pointed out here? It's an Onion article. It's not real.

[rational thinker]

Did you bother to read the article source or what's been pointed out here? It's an Onion article. It's not real.

I think it's my tinyurl link that threw them off... I did that for this very purpose. Didn't think I'd fool that many people. :D

[rockandrollsouls]

I think it's my tinyurl link that threw them off... I did that for this very purpose. Didn't think I'd fool that many people. :D

You'd think most people would take the time to consider the source of their information...guess not :confused:

[yaz]

Someone please explain to me how privatizing the fire department would be a bad thing.

[cheapseats]

Someone please explain to me how privatizing the fire department would be a bad thing.

Must we re-invent the wheel?

Private fire companies have already been tried. They failed. Why on earth, when ALL of our Systems & Operations need overhauls with an eye on necessity, efficiency and honesty, would we re-visit already failed methods?

I forget where all I have seen the plaques on buildings, designating that it was covered by this or that fire company -- I want to say Charleston, Savannah and Philadelphia.

You live on my left or maybe two doors down and you pay for fire protection from the Minuteman Brigade. Another poster lives on my right or maybe a couple doors down and he pays for fire protection from the Speedy Yankee. Poster Three who pays for fire protection from Backdrafts R Us lives across the street.

Fire protection is one cost I can spare myself, eh? Can you imagine a house proximate to yours being on fire and no one responding because the fire wasn't in one of the insured houses? Like fires don't spread? I spy billable hours for trauma-chasing low-life Legal Eagles.

Human nature is human nature. There are ALWAYS a few in a bunch who try to take unfair advantage, and who not infrequently succeed. Plato said something about Man always perceiving advantage in Injustice.

The Self-Interest that features in the arguments about Greed has historically ALSO demonstrated a so-reliable-as-to-be-natural tendency toward moral flexibility. It is pointless to debate Absolute Liberty, without discussing the restraint and discipline that are required for Liberty to mean anything more than All Bets Are Off.

[Expatriate]

Must we re-invent the wheel?

Private fire companies have already been tried. They failed. Why on earth, when ALL of our Systems & Operations need overhauls with an eye on necessity, efficiency and honesty, would we re-visit already failed methods?

I forget where all I have seen the plaques on buildings, designating that it was covered by this or that fire company -- I want to say Charleston, Savannah and Philadelphia.

You live on my left or maybe two doors down and you pay for fire protection from the Minuteman Brigade. Another poster lives on my right or maybe a couple doors down and he pays for fire protection from the Speedy Yankee. Poster Three who pays for fire protection from Backdrafts R Us lives across the street.

Fire protection is one cost I can spare myself, eh? Can you imagine a house proximate to yours being on fire and no one responding because the fire wasn't in one of the insured houses? Like fires don't spread? I spy billable hours for trauma-chasing low-life Legal Eagles.

Human nature is human nature. There are ALWAYS a few in a bunch who try to take unfair advantage, and who not infrequently succeed. Plato said something about Man always perceiving advantage in Injustice.

The Self-Interest that features in the arguments about Greed has historically ALSO demonstrated a so-reliable-as-to-be-natural tendency toward moral flexibility. It is pointless to debate Absolute Liberty, without discussing the restraint and discipline that are required for Liberty to mean anything more than All Bets Are Off.

Private fire companies all failed? Did you read this post about private fire departments? Why don't you cite some sources to back up your allegations that all private fire departments fail?

Also, do you really believe that someone's house would burn to the ground because they didn't pay for fire service beforehand? Maybe if someone refused to accept help from the local fire dept. and the fire did not pose a danger to any adjacent homes. But otherwise you're completely confused.


I lived in a county where the fire department was private. When I moved into my house they told me about the private garbage service and how the private fire department works.

Basically you pay the fire department a monthly fee (I think it was like $20) for their service. If you did not pay that fee and they had to come out to put out a fire they would charge you for that service (For a full out fire it was about $2,000, with a few fees for more minor things).

Garbage service was a monthly fee of about $17. There were a lot of companies and lots of competition. My garbage service was great, they dropped off a barrel for me, emptied it twice a week and were very helpful for any problems I had. I saw one guy who bought a truck and went around town with about 6 large barrels on the back. He'd drop off an empty and pick up a full one, then go empty them at the dump. Entrepenurial spirit if I've ever seen it.

Do not jump to the conclusion that the government is necessary for any service. Think outside of the box people.

[yaz]

Must we re-invent the wheel?

Private fire companies have already been tried. They failed. Why on earth, when ALL of our Systems & Operations need overhauls with an eye on necessity, efficiency and honesty, would we re-visit already failed methods?

I forget where all I have seen the plaques on buildings, designating that it was covered by this or that fire company -- I want to say Charleston, Savannah and Philadelphia.

You live on my left or maybe two doors down and you pay for fire protection from the Minuteman Brigade. Another poster lives on my right or maybe a couple doors down and he pays for fire protection from the Speedy Yankee. Poster Three who pays for fire protection from Backdrafts R Us lives across the street.

Fire protection is one cost I can spare myself, eh? Can you imagine a house proximate to yours being on fire and no one responding because the fire wasn't in one of the insured houses? Like fires don't spread? I spy billable hours for trauma-chasing low-life Legal Eagles.

Human nature is human nature. There are ALWAYS a few in a bunch who try to take unfair advantage, and who not infrequently succeed. Plato said something about Man always perceiving advantage in Injustice.

The Self-Interest that features in the arguments about Greed has historically ALSO demonstrated a so-reliable-as-to-be-natural tendency toward moral flexibility. It is pointless to debate Absolute Liberty, without discussing the restraint and discipline that are required for Liberty to mean anything more than All Bets Are Off.

No, they have been quite successful actually. If someone doesn't have protection then if that event happens they will be charged more. The same applies to health insurance. People need life insurance coverage if they're married and have kids and both income streams are important. If one dies without life insurance they will be financially devastated. That's a risk someone can choose to take. If someone doesn't pay for some type of fire insurance then they risk losing everything in case of a fire. Using your logic those things should be socialized also. The example the person gave where he used to live in a place where you could choose your fire fighting service and pay a monthly fee was great. I would love to have that kind of competition and the freedom to not be taxed for such a service. Now if I needed their services then, just like a person without health insurance, I would have to pay a much larger price.


So in other words, you have no idea what you are talking about clearly because you provided no specific examples.


And yes, reinventing the wheel would be great. The quality of our tires have gotten better and the prices have gotten lower with the help of free markets.

[yaz]

bump

[yaz]

bump

[yaz]

i want a reply :'(

[Catatonic]

The one time I've ever had to call the fire department, it took them an hour to go 3 blocks. Even after multiple people calling about the same issue.

[Paulitician]

I'm for "privatized" fire departments, but I'm against one monopoly (the government) handing off its service to another monopoly that's private, which is usually what privatization means. In other words, I'm for free market fire departments, but even that phrase has some misconceptions. I'm for any type of voluntary procedure people create from the grassroots, whether its for-profit, non-profit, "socialized," or unsocialized etc. Get the government out!

[Danke]

Of course he didn't. He's already paying for it. I suppose this was supposed to be some sort of jab at Libertarians for not being consistent.

Yes, that's the first thing that stuck out when I read the Onion piece. Yes, it is supposed to be funny, and yes it is a jab (poorly done) at Libertarians.

[mellamojuana]

I'm glad the man whose LR caught fire didn't "offer to pay" the FD he'd already paid thru his taxes. I never offer to pay our magistrate, clerk of court, librarian, postal employees, teachers, principals, and law enforcement. I prefer not to pay twice for anything. Eh, Bruno?

Cheap, I love your "Backdrafts R Us." All FDs in my county are "volunteer." Whether they ever get any grants or other gov't funding, I dnk. :p

Rockand, I think you could be right on both counts--that services made private would result in less waist--and less waste. :D Work instead of welfare should keep some of the flab off. ;)

Conza, you spoke of private vs. gov't/state run services known to man. Understood. This woman knows a few gov't "services" that are almost equally "disservices" to man, woman, and child. :(

Yep, The Onion nearly brought tears of frustration to me eyes. :(

[fatjohn]

Wow, this guy is hardcore :d

[yaz]

I'm for "privatized" fire departments, but I'm against one monopoly (the government) handing off its service to another monopoly that's private, which is usually what privatization means. In other words, I'm for free market fire departments, but even that phrase has some misconceptions. I'm for any type of voluntary procedure people create from the grassroots, whether its for-profit, non-profit, "socialized," or unsocialized etc. Get the government out!

Monopolies can't exist in a true free market.

[Paulitician]

Monopolies can't exist in a true free market.
No duh? Tell me something I don't know buddy :p