So I just watched "Day the Earth Stood Still"...

[rrcamp]

... crap movie (original was great) but it made one good point:

It takes teetering on the edge of a precipice to force real change.

Do you guys believe that? If we look at human history, how many times has drastic change come about through regular methods? Political changes seem to require populations to be pushed to their breaking points. Economic changes seem to require the same.

The only wildcards I can see are technology and religion. Technology seems to have the unique capability to disrupt the existing order without pushing populations to the breaking point, ie. Bronze, Gunpowder, Industrial Revolution, Internet, etc. Religion possibly has the same ability, though I would argue here that populations under stress are much more susceptible to religion-driven change, so it may not qualify. You'd have to look at prosperous, educated humans in a history/tradition vacuum to see if religion still developed. I think in the end you'd still see it, only because there is so much in this world we can't explain, and the idea of death being the end is so difficult to accept.

Thoughts?

[FindLiberty]

Me too...


... crap movie (original was great) but it made one good point:
It takes teetering on the edge of a precipice to force real change.

...but I don't see any good outcome on the horizon. I think we have a long way to fall before we will fight to escape from bondage again:


A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with a result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:
>From bondage to spiritual faith;
>From spiritual faith to great courage;
>From courage to liberty;
>From liberty to abundance;
>From abundance to selfishness;
>From selfishness to complacency;
>From complacency to apathy;
>From apathy to dependency;
>From dependency back into bondage.
-- The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic
Alexander Fraser Tyler (1748 - 1813)

[rrcamp]

Following that logic, the smaller the treasury, the safer your democracy :-)


Your quote got me interested in the actual oldest running democracy (very broad term, but..)

I found this page:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,,-80426,00.html

Of course there is no answer because it depends on how you define democracy. Something interesting, however, is that some are claiming Iceland, which as you know is going through some interesting times right now. I wonder how it will end.

The other interesting bit is the Six Nations (Iroquois), Native Americans... If you read about it, it sounds a lot like the US - a confederacy of semi-independent states, had a constitution, they had TWO military commanders to counter the power of the other - much like the Romans during the republic with two consuls...

[Bruno]

Me too...



...but I don't see any good outcome on the horizon. I think we have a long way to fall before we will fight to escape from bondage again:


A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with a result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:
>From bondage to spiritual faith;
>From spiritual faith to great courage;
>From courage to liberty;
>From liberty to abundance;
>From abundance to selfishness;
>From selfishness to complacency;
>From complacency to apathy;
>From apathy to dependency;
>From dependency back into bondage.
-- The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic
Alexander Fraser Tyler (1748 - 1813)

Thanks for that! I've heard that before but never looked for it in print.

[Kludge]

Political change through normal means isn't worthy of even a footnote. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. England's King Henry I essentially secured rights for his citizens out of his own good will and due to no dramatic event, writing the Charter of Liberties.

You read of violent revolutions because others felt they were worthy of highlighting in a book. The vast majority of history is lost forever.

[tangent4ronpaul]

religion - hu?

Wanted: actor to play JC for Second Coming tour. Should be between 18 and 22, have the looks of Brad Pitt, the charisma of Obama, the speaking skills of MLK and be able to present like a Baptist, evangical preacher on a roll from time to time. Psych patients that actually believe they are JC, encouraged to apply...

;)

-t

[tremendoustie]

Me too...



...but I don't see any good outcome on the horizon. I think we have a long way to fall before we will fight to escape from bondage again:


A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with a result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:
>From bondage to spiritual faith;
>From spiritual faith to great courage;
>From courage to liberty;
>From liberty to abundance;
>From abundance to selfishness;
>From selfishness to complacency;
>From complacency to apathy;
>From apathy to dependency;
>From dependency back into bondage.
-- The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic
Alexander Fraser Tyler (1748 - 1813)

That's a great quote, but I think it's misattributed. See http://lorencollins.net/tytler.html. It's not an internet creation, and seems to be at the latest from the early 20th century. It could be even older, but there's no definitive source ....

[Ex Post Facto]

I think, the system will have to come to an end in order for us to usher in Liberty and Freedom again. This time it will be on a global scale. Everyone wants Freedom and Liberty.

[Suzu]

... crap movie (original was great)
Are you saying it's been remade?

[Aratus]

the michael rennie version was definitively B-flic in its special effects
yet quite a trend setter concerning the 1950s and science fiction...

[FindLiberty]

That's a great quote, but I think it's misattributed... there's no definitive source ....

You are correct. I should put "Author Unknown" down as the source, but I don't know that to be "true" either...