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View Full Version : Are we all just going to sit back and complain or are we going to try to do something




ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 04:18 PM
It seems like there is no way to win. Some Ron Paul supporters just want nothing to do with Campaign for Liberty no matter what. I wish I could get to the bottom about why some people are so resistant. Here are some ideas:

1. Some people just want Ron Paul the celebrity. Maybe there was some truth to it when our critics said the Ron Paul revolution is just a cult of personality. If you talk about taking actual action these people are quick to criticize. But if you make up even the most ridiculous, unrealistic plan for Ron Paul to win in 2012 or even THIS election they cheer and rush to help out. These people don't care about the message. They care about the man.
2. Some people are just making excuses not to do anything. They say that the campaign is too top down and that the people at the top are just barking orders to the grassroots bureaucratically. Then if you explain to them that the people at the top can be voted out of their positions BY the grassroots and that there is only a handful of people at the top for the very reason that they didn't want to make it bureaucratic, they say, "The campaign is too grassroots. There's no organization." Then when you explain to them that if you sign up, there are tasks that you can complete that really make a difference they say, "The campaign is too top down..." And it goes around and around in a circle.
They complain that Ron Paul is not involved enough with Campaign for Liberty. Or they complain that Ron Paul is too involved with Campaign for Liberty and it should be about the message, not the man. Well which is it?
They complain about having to pay $35. That's reasonable to be bothered by. But then when you explain to them that nobody is getting a Mercedes out of this and that without the $35 they can't run, they still disagree. Then if you offer to pay their dues for them, they run and hide or say they're too busy.
3. Some people would rather be armchair intellectuals. This is exactly the reason why the Libertarian party has never made any progress. They argue endlessly about whether abortion should be legal or not and how Ron Paul is destroying the liberty movement. But maybe they should actually win a seat in office before they start arguing the most insignificant details of what that person should do if they are in office.
4. Some people are just being given bad information. These are the people I really care about reaching out to. They are the ones who would work with Campaign for Liberty but are very skeptical because of all the rumors (pretty much all of which have absolutely no merit -- believe me, I have checked) going around. That is why I created the thread, "I would like to attempt to clear up any misinformation you have about Campaign for Liberty" which is located in this subfolder.

The bottom line is, we all need to search our souls and find out why we REALLY don't want to be part of Campaign for Liberty. It's very important to be skeptical, without it we would just be like everyone else. But you have to be realistic too. If something sounds far fetched and has no source to back it up except, "my friends who know some friends told me," it's probably a big stretch of the truth or not true at all. You can go check for yourself too. Don't take my word for it. There is a social networking feature on Campaign for Liberty so that you can speak directly to those at the top. I don't think you even need to be a dues paying member to get it.

Lastly, even if you think Campaign for Liberty has problems and you're still skeptical about joining, try to understand that there will be problems. Sometimes big problems. But this is the best that we have. If you don't believe me, then find something better. I dare you. The truth is that you won't. Despite all of its blemishes, you will not find another organization that gives individuals in the grassroots the power to do their own projects and have the power to vote out those at the top. You won't find another organization that has only a handful of people at the top and offer "suggestions," (not orders), of how you can make a difference, a real difference, (not just slapping a bumper sticker on your car) and that knows when to back off. You won't find another liberty organization with a HUGE list of educational sources that are FREE. You won't find another freedom organization with a social networking site in order to make it easier for people to meet up and communicate with each other. If you can, by all means, post it below and prove me wrong.

We have the opportunity to make a real difference. Be honest and ask yourself, what is really holding YOU back?

Truth Warrior
12-18-2008, 04:28 PM
Too MUCH of "doing something" is EXACTLY what got us ALL into this mess, in the first place.<IMHO> :p :rolleyes:

"Don't just 'do something', stand there." :D






"When people say 'let's do something about it,' they mean 'let's get hold of the political machinery so that we can do something to somebody else.' And that somebody is invariably you." -- Frank Chodorov

LibertyEagle
12-18-2008, 04:43 PM
Good post, Shannon.

Agent CSL
12-18-2008, 05:10 PM
Good post.

What's holding me back? Myself. And also the fact that I don't really have much money, I can't drive and I still live with my parents. Armchair warrior for the time being.

tangent4ronpaul
12-18-2008, 05:12 PM
Shannon,

you really don't get it.

suggest you re-read the threads in the CFL sub-forum.

-t

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 05:15 PM
Shannon,

you really don't get it.

suggest you re-read the threads in the CFL sub-forum.

-t

I have read the threads in the CFL sub-forum. Which is exactly why I made this post. Maybe I really don't get it. Maybe you should explain it to me.

Melissa
12-18-2008, 05:30 PM
Great Post Shannon thanks, I agree, just do what you can and Don't Sweat the Small Stuff.

Just go talk to people use whatever means that gets you there just get it done

aravoth
12-18-2008, 05:32 PM
My wife stay's home with the kids, I work, I buy the essentials only, the rest of my income is put in places where it won't loose value. I burn a ton of firewood to keep warm to keep my bills down. I don't go out to eat, I don't go out to drink. The town i live in is a socialistic shithole, But I have a computer, and I know how to make overly dramatic videos, at least it's something. There is a lot you can do without a lot of money.

mt4rp
12-18-2008, 05:36 PM
What I have found in life there are more complainers than do-er's.
Half of our small meetup group are members of the C4L, more than half have started a county watch group. We have started a recall petition for the sheriff
We are communicating with other groups to get a jump start on our state election.
we spend the time educating anyone willing to listen & as the MSM news gets worse more people are asking questions and our county watch meetings is starting to grow. My words for the Nay Sayer's "Lead, follow or get out of the way"

Melissa
12-18-2008, 05:37 PM
What I have found in life there are more complainers than do-er's.
Half of our small meetup group are members of the C4L, more than half have started a county watch group. We have started a recall petition for the sheriff
We are communicating with other groups to get a jump start on our state election.
we spend the time educating anyone willing to listen & as the MSM news gets worse more people are asking questions and our county watch meetings is starting to grow. My words for the Nay Sayer's "Lead, follow or get out of the way"

Yes this is what we should be doing, my group is working on a few things too, this is what gets the work done

1000-points-of-fright
12-18-2008, 05:38 PM
We are doing something. We're on the internet digging articles and signing online petitions. If it's not online, it isn't real.

Hurray for slactivism.

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 05:38 PM
My wife stay's home with the kids, I work, I buy the essentials only, the rest of my income is put in places where it won't loose value. I burn a ton of firewood to keep warm to keep my bills down. I don't go out to eat, I don't go out to drink. The town i live in is a socialistic shithole, But I have a computer, and I know how to make overly dramatic videos, at least it's something. There is a lot you can do without a lot of money.

Right on! You are doing the best you can with what you have. That is admirable and we can all at least try to do the same.

wizardwatson
12-18-2008, 05:38 PM
My wife stay's home with the kids, I work, I buy the essentials only, the rest of my income is put in places where it won't loose value. I burn a ton of firewood to keep warm to keep my bills down. I don't go out to eat, I don't go out to drink. The town i live in is a socialistic shithole, But I have a computer, and I know how to make overly dramatic videos, at least it's something. There is a lot you can do without a lot of money.

Because of the subject matter, there's no way those videos could be considered overly dramatic.

You are too humble sir! :D

rockandrollsouls
12-18-2008, 05:39 PM
It seems like there is no way to win. Some Ron Paul supporters just want nothing to do with Campaign for Liberty no matter what. I wish I could get to the bottom about why some people are so resistant. Here are some ideas:

1. Some people just want Ron Paul the celebrity. Maybe there was some truth to it when our critics said the Ron Paul revolution is just a cult of personality. If you talk about taking actual action these people are quick to criticize. But if you make up even the most ridiculous, unrealistic plan for Ron Paul to win in 2012 or even THIS election they cheer and rush to help out. These people don't care about the message. They care about the man.
2. Some people are just making excuses not to do anything. They say that the campaign is too top down and that the people at the top are just barking orders to the grassroots bureaucratically. Then if you explain to them that the people at the top can be voted out of their positions BY the grassroots and that there is only a handful of people at the top for the very reason that they didn't want to make it bureaucratic, they say, "The campaign is too grassroots. There's no organization." Then when you explain to them that if you sign up, there are tasks that you can complete that really make a difference they say, "The campaign is too top down..." And it goes around and around in a circle.
They complain that Ron Paul is not involved enough with Campaign for Liberty. Or they complain that Ron Paul is too involved with Campaign for Liberty and it should be about the message, not the man. Well which is it?
They complain about having to pay $35. That's reasonable to be bothered by. But then when you explain to them that nobody is getting a Mercedes out of this and that without the $35 they can't run, they still disagree. Then if you offer to pay their dues for them, they run and hide or say they're too busy.
3. Some people would rather be armchair intellectuals. This is exactly the reason why the Libertarian party has never made any progress. They argue endlessly about whether abortion should be legal or not and how Ron Paul is destroying the liberty movement. But maybe they should actually win a seat in office before they start arguing the most insignificant details of what that person should do if they are in office.
4. Some people are just being given bad information. These are the people I really care about reaching out to. They are the ones who would work with Campaign for Liberty but are very skeptical because of all the rumors (pretty much all of which have absolutely no merit -- believe me, I have checked) going around. That is why I created the thread, "I would like to attempt to clear up any misinformation you have about Campaign for Liberty" which is located in this subfolder.

The bottom line is, we all need to search our souls and find out why we REALLY don't want to be part of Campaign for Liberty. It's very important to be skeptical, without it we would just be like everyone else. But you have to be realistic too. If something sounds far fetched and has no source to back it up except, "my friends who know some friends told me," it's probably a big stretch of the truth or not true at all. You can go check for yourself too. Don't take my word for it. There is a social networking feature on Campaign for Liberty so that you can speak directly to those at the top. I don't think you even need to be a dues paying member to get it.

Lastly, even if you think Campaign for Liberty has problems and you're still skeptical about joining, try to understand that there will be problems. Sometimes big problems. But this is the best that we have. If you don't believe me, then find something better. I dare you. The truth is that you won't. Despite all of its blemishes, you will not find another organization that gives individuals in the grassroots the power to do their own projects and have the power to vote out those at the top. You won't find another organization that has only a handful of people at the top and offer "suggestions," (not orders), of how you can make a difference, a real difference, (not just slapping a bumper sticker on your car) and that knows when to back off. You won't find another liberty organization with a HUGE list of educational sources that are FREE. You won't find another freedom organization with a social networking site in order to make it easier for people to meet up and communicate with each other. If you can, by all means, post it below and prove me wrong.

We have the opportunity to make a real difference. Be honest and ask yourself, what is really holding YOU back?

I can agree with this. Well thought out post.

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 05:41 PM
I can agree with this. Well thought out post.

Woah. If rockandrollsouls agrees with me, I KNOW nothing is impossible.

wizardwatson
12-18-2008, 05:46 PM
And many including myself have reminded the RPFers about the standing fact that there currently is no actionable plan.

I think C4L is a means to implement a plan. It is not a plan in and of itself. The only thing coming close to an actionable plan of action seems to be to "go out and educate".

That's where we're at now. That's the 500 pound gorilla in the room or whatever.

And I'm sure we'll see threads like these every week or so coming from some frustrated individual like the OP or myself, until someone comes up with something.

pacelli
12-18-2008, 05:52 PM
I'm unemployed and refuse to go on unemployment. My major focus right now is finding a job, writing applications, keeping my family above water, and waiting to hear if I've written the applications well enough to get an interview. I don't have time or money for CFL right now. All of my efforts are being focused on getting a job (or waiting to hear back from them).

Matt Collins
12-18-2008, 06:05 PM
I just got made the Chief Information Officer of my local Republican Party (means I'll be working on their website).

Next I will very likely be a region chair meaning I'll have a vote on the executive committee. If only I could have 4 or 5 more RP supporters on there with me, we'd be able to dominate the local party.

wizardwatson
12-18-2008, 06:16 PM
I'm going to the first CFL meeting here in Topeka, KS in about 5 minutes. Though admittedly, it is at a bar, and if I couldn't have a beer there I probably wouldn't be going.

But hey, it still counts as doing something.

rockandrollsouls
12-18-2008, 07:02 PM
Woah. If rockandrollsouls agrees with me, I KNOW nothing is impossible.

Well, I've said many of the things in your post time and time again...why wouldn't I agree?

I'm not just a jerk that goes around arguing with people for the fun of it :D

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 07:06 PM
I'm going to the first CFL meeting here in Topeka, KS in about 5 minutes. Though admittedly, it is at a bar, and if I couldn't have a beer there I probably wouldn't be going.

But hey, it still counts as doing something.

YAY! That's great! Maybe that's how I should host my first event... in a bar!

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 07:08 PM
If only I could have 4 or 5 more RP supporters on there with me, we'd be able to dominate the local party.

Dang. I get the feeling that there a lot of of counties like that. I'm in Washington otherwise I would absolutely be there. I love hearing the stories about when our guys make progress in the GOP. Keep em coming!

tonesforjonesbones
12-18-2008, 08:17 PM
I am the fundraising / event chair of a new local group called Bay Patriots..a constitution, watchdog group. When our meet up went south, some guy from over west of us took it over, he somehow became the regional chair of the C4L. There was a guy here locally who wanted to start it, but because the other dude holds the chair..we're stuck. That guy who is chair does alot of stuff over west of us, but nothing here at all...so we can't have C4L here right now. When and if they straighten it out I'm sure I will join and get involved. tones

penguin
12-18-2008, 08:33 PM
Dang. I get the feeling that there a lot of of counties like that. I'm in Washington otherwise I would absolutely be there. I love hearing the stories about when our guys make progress in the GOP. Keep em coming!

Hi Shannon,

I have read 2 of your threads on this topic and my biggest reservation about joining was about the people involved. I will pledge my $35 tonight, you won me over.

Regards

Brassmouth
12-18-2008, 08:54 PM
I'd like to point out that some of us are anarchists and don't regard the CFL as a realistic or even favorable way of accomplishing...anything.

You're going against history here, folks. The State doesn't shrink. And once these CFL bureaucrats get all cushy up there, the fate of the CFL will be the same as the fate of the Libertarian Party: moderate, compromising, close-minded, and totally ineffective.

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 09:13 PM
Hi Shannon,

I have read 2 of your threads on this topic and my biggest reservation about joining was about the people involved. I will pledge my $35 tonight, you won me over.

Regards

:D YAAAAAAAAAAY! Penguin, YOU ROCK!

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 09:16 PM
And once these CFL bureaucrats get all cushy up there, the fate of the CFL will be the same as the fate of the Libertarian Party: moderate, compromising, close-minded, and totally ineffective.

I don't know about the other stuff, but I can definitely debunk the quote above.

1. There aren't bureaucrats at the top. There is only about 10 people at the "top."
2. They won't get cushy because the grassroots can vote them out of their positions.

Brassmouth
12-18-2008, 09:29 PM
I don't know about the other stuff, but I can definitely debunk the quote above.

1. There aren't bureaucrats at the top. There is only about 10 people at the "top."
2. They won't get cushy because the grassroots can vote them out of their positions.

1. Whatever the nature of their occupations are the point remains. As Mr. Nolan explained in his recent podcast with Lew Rockwell, these organizations eventually just become concerned with sustaining themselves and doing little else.

2. If voting in the CFL works as well as voting in general, I'd say you're arguing my point.

Anyway, my point remains. The human capital of this movement would be put to a far better use doing anything else rather than trying to reform the Mafia.

ingrid
12-18-2008, 09:36 PM
I don't know about the other stuff, but I can definitely debunk the quote above.

1. There aren't bureaucrats at the top. There is only about 10 people at the "top."
2. They won't get cushy because the grassroots can vote them out of their positions.

???
I thought people only voted on the state level. Where did you read that supporters can vote out the national staff?

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 10:02 PM
Anyway, my point remains. The human capital of this movement would be put to a far better use doing anything else rather than trying to reform the Mafia.

Like what? Name something better.

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 10:07 PM
???
I thought people only voted on the state level. Where did you read that supporters can vote out the national staff?

I am trying to find the source. I will answer you specifically when I find it.

wizardwatson
12-18-2008, 10:19 PM
I'd like to point out that some of us are anarchists and don't regard the CFL as a realistic or even favorable way of accomplishing...anything.

You're going against history here, folks. The State doesn't shrink. And once these CFL bureaucrats get all cushy up there, the fate of the CFL will be the same as the fate of the Libertarian Party: moderate, compromising, close-minded, and totally ineffective.

CFL is a voluntary grass roots countermeasure to statism. I fail to see how it is against the 'anarchist' goals. I'm all ears to more actionable plans from the anarchists.

I've got my own ideas about grass roots and local economic/monetary countermeasures, but that camp is pretty small thus far.

What do you think would be a better use of our time and energy?

Brassmouth
12-18-2008, 10:23 PM
Like what? Name something better.

Name something better than participating in a violent institution? Okie dokey.

We learn Austrian economics and teach people on an individual level. We write articles, appear on media outlets (a la Peter Schiff), spread videos around, and show philosophic consistency.

You're proposing we pay politicians and "get out the vote" and other such things. Those things have never worked. Governments don't ever shrink, for a variety of reasons that are now beyond our control. Libertarianism isn't a philosophy that is compatible with government participation. The State, by it's mere existence, violates both private property rights and the non-aggression axiom; both vital tenets to libertarians.

Would anyone here say that Ron Paul failed? I should hope not.

But why? He got crushed in the elections.

Then how did he succeed? How did he jam the red pill down the throats of so many people? Was it by lobbying politicians or "appealing" to voters? Of course not.

He did so because he spoke consistently and sought to educate, not merely pander for votes or promise hand-outs. If RP preached the same thing but based his disapproval of welfare on a hatred for poor people, would anyone have listened to him? Nope.

Clearly it was the philosophy and economics behind what he said, not the politics or really even the content itself.

This is why it is futile to use the State to change the State. It is historically, logically, and philosophically impossible.

JamesButabi
12-18-2008, 10:29 PM
You know what Shannon, you really are right.

Ive been a C4L member for quite some time now. Admittedly it wasn't the smoothest site in the world, and I spent more time surfing around here. Yet...

Ive been tempted to make a post about how impressed Ive been with the C4L lately. The homepage bloggers have really stepped it up recently adding content at a very good pace and quality material at that. They brought back member blog posts to the main page, so you can see what others are talking about, and get your own blogs out there to the masses. More features have been added on a state level, and the initial state and precinct separation was always solid.

In my eyes, C4L is getting more things accomplished than any other site right now. Ive watched precinct after precinct become organized and ready for action. Adding membership is only going to help the cause.

I was dues paying up to this point, but I think im going to step up and become a precinct leader, because RI is not particularly flourishing and could use some support. I urge others to at the very least join and try to participate. It costs you nothing to do that.

Brassmouth
12-18-2008, 10:29 PM
CFL is a voluntary grass roots countermeasure to statism. I fail to see how it is against the 'anarchist' goals.

How can you counter statism by trying to work within the State? Are you going to stop the violent theft that keeps the State alive? If that is your intention, do you think they'll even let you be dog catcher?



What do you think would be a better use of our time and energy?

See above.

wizardwatson
12-18-2008, 10:32 PM
Name something better than participating in a violent institution? Okie dokey.

We learn Austrian economics and teach people on an individual level. We write articles, appear on media outlets (a la Peter Schiff), spread videos around, and show philosophic consistency.

You're proposing we pay politicians and "get out the vote" and other such things. Those things have never worked. Governments don't ever shrink, for a variety of reasons that are now beyond our control. Libertarianism isn't a philosophy that is compatible with government participation. The State, by it's mere existence, violates both private property rights and the non-aggression axiom; both vital tenets to libertarians.

Would anyone here say that Ron Paul failed? I should hope not.

But why? He got crushed in the elections.

Then how did he succeed? How did he jam the red pill down the throats of so many people? Was it by lobbying politicians or "appealing" to voters? Of course not.

He did so because he spoke consistently and sought to educate, not merely pander for votes or promise hand-outs. If RP preached the same thing but based his disapproval of welfare on a hatred for poor people, would anyone have listened to him? Nope.

Clearly it was the philosophy and economics behind what he said, not the politics or really even the content itself.

This is why it is futile to use the State to change the State. It is historically, logically, and philosophically impossible.

Well I actually went to a CFL meeting today, and I think you have the wrong idea about what CFL is. It's more of a local activist organization that is simply coordinated nationwide when necessary. It isn't really top down first of all and it isn't really specifically focused on getting votes or endorsing candidates. It's more about having an engine to connect with our communities. At least that's what I got from the interim state coordinator who headed our meeting.

That fact is we need widespread cohesion in some form whether it be national or global. I'm not of the opinion that we should reject national organization itself. So if you have an idea of how to 'get things done', CFL is a means to that end. CFL is a way to gather up everyone so that you can then actually have someone to do all those things you're posting about with, rather than doing it here on RPF where we all suffer from analysis paralysis, or we just come here because we're bored or like the company or both.

Point is CFL is not some kind of 'compromise' with the 'STATE'.

JamesButabi
12-18-2008, 10:37 PM
Point is CFL is not some kind of 'compromise' with the 'STATE'.

If anything its completely the opposite. Its a group of people who think the state should be drastically reduced.

wizardwatson
12-18-2008, 10:41 PM
If anything its completely the opposite. Its a group of people who think the state should be drastically reduced.

Well it's a hierarchical location based social network. The tools and stuff for the precinct leaders are definitely politically geared but what else should it be? Not everyone in the RP movement is an anarchist. Some will want to get involved in elections. But there's nothing stopping someone who wants to set up showings of AJ videos or organize 'Rothbard book clubs' from using the network for their own ideas.

It's not pro-State, it's not pro-republican, it's not pro-democrat, it's not pro-anarchist, it's not pro-Austrian economics. It's just pro grass roots. And if the liberty movement rejects it then we are splintering.

Brassmouth
12-18-2008, 10:49 PM
The CFL (and the Liberty PAC) has been described as a lobbying organization. It participates in the State apparatus in that regard.

You seem to think I am against "organization." That's not correct. I am totally for voluntary organizations (preferably grassroots) that work to eliminate (or reduce, whatever floats your boat) the State. However I cannot endorse involvement in the State or voting as a means to that end, for the reasons stated above.

The Mises Institute is a good example of an organization that rejects State involvement while advocating our general goals.

wizardwatson
12-18-2008, 10:57 PM
The CFL (and the Liberty PAC) has been described as a lobbying organization. It participates in the State apparatus in that regard.

You seem to think I am against "organization." That's not correct. I am totally for voluntary organizations (preferably grassroots) that work to eliminate (or reduce, whatever floats your boat) the State. However I cannot endorse involvement in the State or voting as a means to that end, for the reasons stated above.

The Mises Institute is a good example of an organization that rejects State involvement while advocating our general goals.

I know, and what I'm saying is that involving yourself and participating in CFL does not require you to do those things. Signing up for CFL is free, you can include yourself on the emails. You can blog about stuff and message/email people in your area and try to organize whatever you want. It is simply a way to connect in more meaningful ways to those in your community. It's not going to be any more than we make of it.

I'm not against your methods. I'm against the idea that CFL is somehow agenda oriented when it is fact not. It's people oriented.

Anyway, my infomercial for CFL will have to end here. I'm tired and going to bed.

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 11:04 PM
Ive been tempted to make a post about how impressed Ive been with the C4L lately...

I was dues paying up to this point, but I think im going to step up and become a precinct leader, because RI is not particularly flourishing and could use some support. I urge others to at the very least join and try to participate. It costs you nothing to do that.

You should have made a post. With all the bad news going on in our country every day, it would be nice to hear something positive. I love reading those kinds of posts most of all.

I am so glad you hear that you became a precinct leader! Doesn't Rhode Island have two precincts and three precinct leaders? If that's true, I think Rhode Island could be our first state that's 100% C4L! Now if only it was so easy with the rest of the states...

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 11:08 PM
Well I actually went to a CFL meeting today...

I'm glad to hear you went. Truth be told, we all lead busy lives, so when someone makes the effort and takes time out of their life that they don't have in order to be active, it means a lot. It's encouraging for the rest of us to hear.

ShannonOBrien
12-18-2008, 11:10 PM
We learn Austrian economics and teach people on an individual level. We write articles, appear on media outlets (a la Peter Schiff), spread videos around, and show philosophic consistency.

I can respect that. That's very useful as we've seen with Ron Paul's example. You might want to think about using the Campaign for Liberty social networking site because it does help to organize people together for things of that very nature. I don't think you even have to be a dues-paying member to do that.

penguin
12-18-2008, 11:15 PM
Name something better than participating in a violent institution? Okie dokey.

We learn Austrian economics and teach people on an individual level. We write articles, appear on media outlets (a la Peter Schiff), spread videos around, and show philosophic consistency.

You're proposing we pay politicians and "get out the vote" and other such things. Those things have never worked. Governments don't ever shrink, for a variety of reasons that are now beyond our control. Libertarianism isn't a philosophy that is compatible with government participation. The State, by it's mere existence, violates both private property rights and the non-aggression axiom; both vital tenets to libertarians.

Would anyone here say that Ron Paul failed? I should hope not.

But why? He got crushed in the elections.

Then how did he succeed? How did he jam the red pill down the throats of so many people? Was it by lobbying politicians or "appealing" to voters? Of course not.

He did so because he spoke consistently and sought to educate, not merely pander for votes or promise hand-outs. If RP preached the same thing but based his disapproval of welfare on a hatred for poor people, would anyone have listened to him? Nope.

Clearly it was the philosophy and economics behind what he said, not the politics or really even the content itself.

This is why it is futile to use the State to change the State. It is historically, logically, and philosophically impossible.

Ron Paul did this from the political seat he won in the elections that gave him the opportunity to get his voice out to more people. What if he wasn't alone there? What if more people with the same ideas were in politics? What if?! :cool:

LibertyEagle
12-18-2008, 11:24 PM
However I cannot endorse involvement in the State or voting as a means to that end, for the reasons stated above.

The Mises Institute is a good example of an organization that rejects State involvement while advocating our general goals.

Having goals, without the corresponding ACTION to achieve them, do NOTHING.

Eleutheros
12-18-2008, 11:32 PM
OK, I'll explain why I haven't (and currently don't plan to) join Campaign For Liberty.

My primary reason is that while I strongly respect the tenets C4L was founded upon and that I feel that it is necessary in tumultuous times as these, I personally don't want to expend time into something that I feel will face the same opposition and suppression that the Ron Paul '08 campaign did. Frankly, I'm battle fatigued and I need to expend my energies into efforts that will prove to be more fruitful. There, I've said it.

My secondary reason is that in many respects, my Ron Paul "mission" has been accomplished: I went to the polls on November 4 and voted for a man who I felt was most qualified based on factors the I and only I found to be important, not the MSM, not public or popular opinion, just ME! And that man was Ron Paul. I waited almost 18 months to do so and dangit, it felt good to do it. And I only had to wait in line at the polls 4 hours and 5 minutes. But it was well worth it!

I also learned a lot about Austrian economics and how it plays into an effectively ran government. It actually inspired me to look into seeking a doctorate program to study Austrian economics in depth (and I still might do it before all is said and done).

And most importantly, what I learned from Ron Paul and all of us here at RPF.com is that sometimes, in order to let Ron Paul's message resonate with the MSM and the general public, you gotta let sheeple be sheeple. Meaning, you gottal let sheeple fall on their faces (as they doing right now dealing with the economy) in order for them to get Ron Paul's message.

So at least for the time being, my work here is done. It's time for me to fade back into obscurity.

ghengis86
12-19-2008, 12:06 AM
i haven't joined the CFL, but I do visit the site daily and think they have a great goal. however, i'm somewhere getting closer and closer to being a full blown anarchist. i can only think of noble organizations that fell to the power of the state with the libertarian party being the best (or worst) example. i'm reserved to the axiom that the state can only grow larger and until i see evidence of it shrinking, will continue to believe so. the state is violent, immoral and corrupt in its very essence.

I will hold out hope for the CFL and its mission and will maybe donate some spare FRN's from time to time, but I won't dive in head first. I'll stick to leaving lewrockwell.com artilces in my companies bathrooms and lunch rooms, start converations with sheeple about the state of our affairs and benefits of liberty and freedom and generally try to educate and inform the best i can.

Brassmouth
12-19-2008, 12:08 AM
Ron Paul did this from the political seat he won in the elections that gave him the opportunity to get his voice out to more people. What if he wasn't alone there? What if more people with the same ideas were in politics? What if?! :cool:

Ha, then there would be several more congressmen that are ignored and marginalized by the elite?

Frankly the moment you would start getting a few CFL politicians in Congress the guys at the top would respond to crush the opposition in any number of underhanded and possibly violent ways. This is of course assuming the politicians you elect don't sell their souls; which is a pretty big leap of faith considering the good doctor is basically the only known politician who hasn't (and even he funnels millions of dollars of handouts into his home district).


Having goals, without the corresponding ACTION to achieve them, do NOTHING.

ACTION, without corresponding REASONING, accomplishes NOTHING.

Besides, when did I ever state that action was not necessary?

ghengis86
12-19-2008, 12:36 AM
Ha, then there would be several more congressmen that are ignored and marginalized by the elite?

Frankly the moment you would start getting a few CFL politicians in Congress the guys at the top would respond to crush the opposition in any number of underhanded and possibly violent ways. This is of course assuming the politicians you elect don't sell their souls; which is a pretty big leap of faith considering the good doctor is basically the only known politician who hasn't (and even he funnels millions of dollars of handouts into his home district).


ACTION, without corresponding REASONING, accomplishes NOTHING.

Besides, when did I ever state that action was not necessary?

ron says (and I understand his logic) that the people should get some benefit for the taxes they pay. but shouldn't he reject that notion all together? (well, we're going to murder 1,000 people today, might as well have a say in who gets shot and who lives...)

on principle and voting record alone, name three congressmen that are even remotely close to RP's integrity. that's one politian over 30 years. the odds are not in our favor. it's possible that we could get a few more and though not realistic i don't think we should chastise those who feel its a bit more possible.

tangent4ronpaul
12-19-2008, 12:55 AM
???
I thought people only voted on the state level. Where did you read that supporters can vote out the national staff?

exactly - total fiction and I recall a thread about "that's not going to happen" from an official source....

-t

tangent4ronpaul
12-19-2008, 12:57 AM
I have read the threads in the CFL sub-forum. Which is exactly why I made this post. Maybe I really don't get it. Maybe you should explain it to me.

Are you really that dense?

-t

tangent4ronpaul
12-19-2008, 01:02 AM
My wife stay's home with the kids, I work, I buy the essentials only, the rest of my income is put in places where it won't loose value. I burn a ton of firewood to keep warm to keep my bills down. I don't go out to eat, I don't go out to drink. The town i live in is a socialistic shithole, But I have a computer, and I know how to make overly dramatic videos, at least it's something. There is a lot you can do without a lot of money.

Your vids ROCK guy! - keep it up!


-t

hotbrownsauce
12-19-2008, 01:03 AM
Freedom can use the active support of as many people as possible.

I myself am in semi-rough times and am unable to do anything except keep up online at the moment because my cars are broke down, dads in hospital, and I go to college. I was a delegate for Paul and went to the March in DC last summer. I talk to family, people I work with, and customers on occasion. I write my representatives and am part of ACLU. I'm reading books to educate myself and have plans on running for office when I am eligible and prepared.

I am sure there are others out there in similar situations as myself. I just hope the people who were captured during this "Paul" movement aren't lossed.

I haven't gone out on the field and directly talked to people in my area other than plant literature around. At this point in time I think if we concentrate on our local areas we can make a bigger impact than if we try to do things together nationally. This does not mean we should sacrifice everything we have nationally or correspondence.

I just think that if we all individually have the mental imprint of smaller goals such as our local area, we can set and meet realistic goals rather than worry about someone in Florida while you live in Alaska. The national level should still go on strong but instead of trying to unite people spread out over thousands of miles each month. I think that more realistically we can share stories of what's going on in our back yards, make big yearly or twice yearly plans nationally. Thus by ALL of us working in our OWN back yards we think it's just our area. In truth it will actually be a national effort. It would just appear as local since you will be tirelessly involved in your backyard. But if you stop to think about it, all across the country everyone has done the same. No stone left unturned.

tangent4ronpaul
12-19-2008, 02:00 AM
I can agree with this. Well thought out post.

Totally BRAIN DEAD post!

-t

tangent4ronpaul
12-19-2008, 02:17 AM
???
I thought people only voted on the state level. Where did you read that supporters can vote out the national staff?

Exactly RIGHT! - I recall a post by a national C4L staffer that said that ain't gonna happen!

-t

tangent4ronpaul
12-19-2008, 02:19 AM
> Originally Posted by Brassmouth View Post
Anyway, my point remains. The human capital of this movement would be put to a far better use doing anything else rather than trying to reform the Mafia.

Like what? Name something better.

WHOA! - a guy promoting the mob... WTF????

-t

LibertyEagle
12-19-2008, 04:34 AM
+ If you are to be critical of another users ideas or message please do so in a respectful manner.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22

LibertyEagle
12-19-2008, 04:53 AM
ACTION, without corresponding REASONING, accomplishes NOTHING.
Very true.

This is the action-oriented statement I saw from you.

We learn Austrian economics and teach people on an individual level. We write articles, appear on media outlets (a la Peter Schiff), spread videos around, and show philosophic consistency.
That's all fine and good, but not too many of us are called to appear on media outlets and since when does trying to take back our government conflict with philosophic consistency? That is, unless you are an anarchist.


Besides, when did I ever state that action was not necessary?
What I saw you post was what seemed like your pitch for why people shouldn't vote, nor get involved in C4L or any effort to take back our government. If you don't want to, great. Do what YOU want. But there are those who believe it's worthwhile to make as many inroads as possible into our existing government infrastructure as possible. Starting from the precinct level on up. No one is forcing you to participate.

The bottom line is, if you don't want to participate with C4L or any other activist organization, don't. Do whatever interests YOU. But, I fail to understand why some can't respect that others have a different opinion. I mean, the banner at the top of this forum still says "Grassroots Support for Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty".

Truth Warrior
12-19-2008, 07:08 AM
The road to hell is paved with the most optimistic of "do something" good intentions, gone bad.

Reality RULES!!!

Beware the "Law of Unitended Consequences".

"What has always made the state a hell on earth has been precisely that man has tried to make it his heaven."

lucius
12-19-2008, 07:38 AM
...

"What has always made the state a hell on earth has been precisely that man has tried to make it his heaven."

Utopian dreams are always psychotic...

Truth Warrior
12-19-2008, 08:28 AM
Utopian dreams are always psychotic... Yep, I've noticed that one too. :( ;)

Politics Is a Sociopathic Cult (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer96.html)

tonesforjonesbones
12-19-2008, 09:07 AM
This is what could happen. If every city in the usa has a liberty organization that does activities, these activites would be featured on every local television station in america..it's much easier to get on local media ..the result would probably be better because most folks watch local news first. Our Ron Paul group was able to get coverage from our local news three times during the campaign for events we put together. I consider LOCAL to be the most important and effective. How many of you write op ed pieces to your local papers? I do it all the time and they always get printed. Do not underestimate how important activism is on the local level. tones

dude58677
12-19-2008, 10:03 AM
Violating the Constitution is a penalty of perjury under article 6 and this applies to judicial officers as well as they are only in for times of good behavior and violating the Constitution is not good behavior. We need to get Ron Paul Repuplicans to become local police chiefs so they can issue fines or asset forfeiture against anyone who violates the Constitution. It is a crime against the public as the acts of perjury fall into all jurisidictions and also because everyone is affected by these unconstitutional laws. Vincent Buglisio suggested prosecuting George Bush for murder over the Iraq War. Let's do the same for the Constitution.

I know we are focusing on Presidential elections or on Congressional elections but justice needs to be served to people who's lives have been ruined by these criminal actions. With the American people being as dumb as they are, the media being complicit, the RNC/DNC leadership advocating this corruption, politicians not listening to Ron Paul even when he proves them wrong time and time again, and unfair treatment to third parties. We cannot wait for an election to bring justice or hope that only money bombs is going to do the job.



Constitionalists often gripe about the Constution being trampled upon but no one is doing anything about this. They rightfully acknowledge that most government actions are illegal but when the issue of actually bringing the criminals to justice is brought up they decline and give many excuses such as there is no authority or that it will hurt the repuation of the constitutional movement or that constitutionalists claim that two wrongs don't make a right. The truth is that evil prevails when good people do nothing to stop bad people. We have gave 30 years of diplomacy(the libertarian/Constitution party started 30 years ago) with these piles of crap (public officials who violate the Constitution). Enough is enough.

It is true that there has been the common law movement and citizen arrests have been made for constitutional violations. The common law movement also known as the posse comatius movement has issued commercial liens, citizen arrests, and even created their own private courts. However, the Feds cracked down on this and called it "organized crime" when in reality the Feds are part of organized crime such as constitutional perjury. Karl Rove has faced citizen arrest at least four times but he ended up evading it and the media referred to the people issuing the arrest as "kidknappers". There have been towns in past years that have voted to arrest public officials if they walk into their town even if they know they will not. This is why it is better to issue asset forfeiture or fines otherwise it will be taken as a symbolic gesture by the constitutional perjurs.

There have been actual arrests of public officials for things like illegal campaign contributions. Tom Delay was arrested for this and indicted for this and as stated before Vincent Bugilisio in his book "The Prosectution of George W Bush for murder" declared that George Bush should be tried in an American courtroom for his war in Iraq for 4,000 counts of murder. This is a huge start but we need to go a step further by issuing asset forfeiture and fines against public officials even federal judicial officers for violating the US Constitution as a crime of perjury under article 6 and make it widespread.

So what is the case against the IRS for Constitutional perjury? The preamble to the Bill of Rights states that "in order to prevent the misconstruction or abuse of power, further restrictive clauses shall be added". This means that the Bill of Rights is inteded to limit the enumerated powers of the government listed in the Constitution even if they enacted after the Bill of Rights were as none of the Bill of Rights were "hereby repealed" in later amendments. The 16th anendment does give Congress the power to tax on incomes from whatever source derived but the ninth and tenth amendment in concurrence with the preamble to the Bill of Rights prohibit Congress to tax for no reason, tax for political gestures such as paying their fair share, tax to pay for unconstitutional programs, tax for unconstitutional debts, and for wasteful spending. The IRS has done most of these things under the Clinton Administration, the only reason the surplus existed was because Clinton wasn't spending the taxed money. The IRS is also guilty on the part of the political gestures as they advocate on their website “Even after IRS enforcement efforts and late payments, the government is being shortchanged by over a quarter-trillion dollars by those who pay less than their fair share. People who aren’t paying their taxes shift the burden to the rest of us.” When they talk about burdening the population by some not paying taxes, they are guilty of forcing everyone to pay for unconstitutional programs. Last they are guilty of making everyone pay for an unconstitutional debt as the Federal Reserve charges the government interest rates on money the Fed lends to the federal goverment. The national debt is at nine trillion dollars and the IRS is demanding that everyone in America pays it off. Finally, the IRS is guilty of taxing for wasteful spending as we have this national debt. The constitutional perjury criminals allege that wasteful spending is subjective but the nine trillion dollar debt is not subjective.



In addtion to Supreme Court Justices, Federal Judges, Presidents, Congressional law makers, being issued fines and asset forfeiture for violating the Constitution. Defense contractors or employees of H&R Block also need to be issued fines for aidng and abetting these constitutional perjurors for profit.



Does someone need to be arrested for advocating big government or violation of the Constitution? No, this is free speech but if they are taking part in doing it or making a profit from it by aiding and abetting it then that person deserves to have their assets seized as they have done to victims of the past.

It is sherriff's and local police chiefs that need to enforce the Constitution by issuing fines and seizing assets. They must be in contact with credit agencies or bill collectors for assistance. Unitl this happens on a widespread scale, we will never se a free America. It is that simple.

Anti Federalist
12-19-2008, 10:47 AM
This is why it is futile to use the State to change the State. It is historically, logically, and philosophically impossible.

This^^^ +1776

What am I doing?

Setting up my property for the 19 April nationwide Appleseed shoot.

What's a rifleman?

In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country. (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/index.htm)

reduen
12-19-2008, 11:03 AM
I just got made the Chief Information Officer of my local Republican Party (means I'll be working on their website).

Next I will very likely be a region chair meaning I'll have a vote on the executive committee. If only I could have 4 or 5 more RP supporters on there with me, we'd be able to dominate the local party.

Way to go Matt! I personally think that the republican party is dead but good for you. I am not the politician type of guy so I do other things but again, good for you! Great to hear ....

heavenlyboy34
12-19-2008, 11:08 AM
This is what could happen. If every city in the usa has a liberty organization that does activities, these activites would be featured on every local television station in america..it's much easier to get on local media ..the result would probably be better because most folks watch local news first. Our Ron Paul group was able to get coverage from our local news three times during the campaign for events we put together. I consider LOCAL to be the most important and effective. How many of you write op ed pieces to your local papers? I do it all the time and they always get printed. Do not underestimate how important activism is on the local level. tones

Neat! I've never heard of papers printing citizens' op-eds. I'll think about it. :D

Feenix566
12-19-2008, 11:35 AM
Be honest and ask yourself, what is really holding YOU back?

The Philadelphia Area C4L Meetup hasn't had an event since 1 Nov, and doesn't have any future events scheduled. This is the group that won the rally contest.

The South Jersey C4L is having a precinct leader meeting on Dec 29th. I'm going to try to be there.


I have a couple reasons I haven't gotten involved.

For one, there are a few individuals in the South Jersey C4L meetup group who seem to think that the central purpose of the Ron Paul Revolution is to hate Mexicans. I'm not down with that, so I don't want to be a part of that sort of group.

Also, I am a little disappointed by the apparent lack of a coherent plan for the C4L. I understand that organizing libertarians is like herding cats, but if we want to succeed we need to develop a plan and act on it. I have an idea for what that plan should be, and I'll be posting a separate thread on the issue.

angelatc
12-19-2008, 11:39 AM
Way to go Matt! I personally think that the republican party is dead but good for you. I am not the politician type of guy so I do other things but again, good for you! Great to hear ....

If you join your local GOP, I suspect you'll find that a lot of the positions are essentially volunteer positions, and that they're grateful to have somebody step up and do the job. That's not the case with the leadership positions of course, but there are a lot of positions at the local levels that, while technically elected, are usually yours for the taking.

reduen
12-19-2008, 11:52 AM
It is the Constitution Party for me now! Thank you for your post though.

I have tried to get use to the idea of being a politician but I can't seem to make myself. I care about people too much!

I have the greatest admiration for those like Dr. Paul but I am short, fat, ugly, fairly simple, and my past is very dirty (I was a very mean guy) so I doubt that I would get far anyway...

I do good just to lead my own family on the right path now. :)

ShowMeLiberty
12-19-2008, 12:23 PM
And many including myself have reminded the RPFers about the standing fact that there currently is no actionable plan.

I think C4L is a means to implement a plan. It is not a plan in and of itself. The only thing coming close to an actionable plan of action seems to be to "go out and educate".

That's where we're at now. That's the 500 pound gorilla in the room or whatever.

And I'm sure we'll see threads like these every week or so coming from some frustrated individual like the OP or myself, until someone comes up with something.

I'm working that "go out and educate" angle. Started a blog, joined Twitter and the "Top Conservatives on Twitter" group (http://www.topconservativesontwitter.org/). I followed every person in the TCOT Twitter group and now have 667 followers of my own. Subtly educating conservatives who primarily identify as Republicans with libertarian views is the goal.

It's a start and it's the best I can do for now.

lucius
12-19-2008, 01:55 PM
This^^^ +1776

What am I doing?

Setting up my property for the 19 April nationwide Appleseed shoot.

What's a rifleman?

In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country. (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/index.htm)

Good trait to know in a pinch--excellent for young & old alike. Kudos to you for hosting it!

LibertyEagle
12-19-2008, 02:15 PM
What am I doing?

Setting up my property for the 19 April nationwide Appleseed shoot.


Well, THAT is action. +1, sir. :D

mediahasyou
12-19-2008, 10:17 PM
it's not that people are unwilling. these people do not know what to do.

cybloo
12-20-2008, 01:52 AM
Mudhoney and I went to a Blackhawk county GOP meeting the other night. We're on the committee to review our county constitution and by-laws.

LibertyEagle
12-20-2008, 04:33 AM
it's not that people are unwilling. these people do not know what to do.

Yes. I think this is a major issue.

Truth Warrior
12-20-2008, 05:30 AM
Yonder infidel GOP citadels await, my liege. Storm on, sally forth and set siege, hither! Per chance the Holy Grail, even.

Where's that guy with the coconut shells? :D Pesonally, I'm still working on building the Trojan rabbit. ;)

"Let it not be said, that we did nothing." -- Ron Paul

Brassmouth
12-20-2008, 05:42 AM
Very true.

This is the action-oriented statement I saw from you.

That's all fine and good, but not too many of us are called to appear on media outlets

Well, that's the action part. Get on the media. There's nothing magical about Peter Schiff. The media like consistency and recognize someone when there is demand for them.


and since when does trying to take back our government conflict with philosophic consistency? That is, unless you are an anarchist.

Bingo. However even for minarchists, I was speaking on a more fundamental level. For instance, don't object to bailouts and nationalization on one hand, then be perfectly fine with a State monopoly of roads and military on the other.



The bottom line is, if you don't want to participate with C4L or any other activist organization, don't. Do whatever interests YOU. But, I fail to understand why some can't respect that others have a different opinion. I mean, the banner at the top of this forum still says "Grassroots Support for Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty".

I can respect that. Notice that the very first thing I said when I entered this thread was that I was merely offering the anarchist standpoint. That said, I still assert that my argument stands regardless of my personal preference, because mine is a utilitarian argument. You don't have to skim through a history book for too long before you notice that governments always expand and enslave their people over time. That fact, combined with the observation that this government has never shrank in even the tiniest bit (probably goes for all other governments as well, though I won't assume), leads me to believe that using the CFL to try to change the State will be totally fruitless.

The only reason I care is because, like I said above, I'd like to see this movement be put to a more effective use. It's not every decade that a movement like ours springs up, people. Let's use our resources to change the world. :)

rrcamp
12-20-2008, 10:22 AM
While I am a member of C4L, my personal reason for not being more active is as follows: We all worked hard to present the American people with a choice. This mission was accomplished. Ron Paul in front of the nation and he was voted down by the people. You can argue the system was stacked against him, but the American people accept this system via tacit consent.

Let me say this again: the American people chose a different path. I am NOT going to fight against the will of the people. To put it another way, I am not going to fight for the people if they won't fight for themselves.

Again, I am NOT going to make my life more difficult for a population who doesn't even WANT real change. I'll be there during the REAL revolution, standing side by side with the people. I'm a member of C4L because it tries to educate the people, offer them another path, help those who do want change...

The question I toss around in my head is: how popular was the American Revolution? I've seen varying accounts, but many claim it didn't have the majority of popular support. If that is true, than you could argue that change was forced upon the people by a minority, dissident group. How do you justify that in a democratic system? The the minority draw their "right" to override the popular opinion because a set of inalienable natural rights was violated? If so, then you could make a case for a small group - like our community - rising up to secure the rights of an otherwise apathetic population. In that case, I suppose I'd be in the wrong, because I know what is happening and chose to do nothing. Rambling ...

LibertyEagle
12-20-2008, 10:27 AM
The only reason I care is because, like I said above, I'd like to see this movement be put to a more effective use. It's not every decade that a movement like ours springs up, people.
Yes, I think this is the crux of it. Since the very beginning, some have been wanting to piggyback their own agenda off of Ron Paul or the movement he brought together, or take it over altogether.


Let's use our resources to change the world. :)
How about this --- you go build your own movement and be up front about what your goals and tactics are.

Thank you at least for being up front here about what your intentions are. Others are not quite as honest.

dude58677
12-20-2008, 02:19 PM
While I am a member of C4L, my personal reason for not being more active is as follows: We all worked hard to present the American people with a choice. This mission was accomplished. Ron Paul in front of the nation and he was voted down by the people. You can argue the system was stacked against him, but the American people accept this system via tacit consent.

Let me say this again: the American people chose a different path. I am NOT going to fight against the will of the people. To put it another way, I am not going to fight for the people if they won't fight for themselves.

Again, I am NOT going to make my life more difficult for a population who doesn't even WANT real change. I'll be there during the REAL revolution, standing side by side with the people. I'm a member of C4L because it tries to educate the people, offer them another path, help those who do want change...

The question I toss around in my head is: how popular was the American Revolution? I've seen varying accounts, but many claim it didn't have the majority of popular support. If that is true, than you could argue that change was forced upon the people by a minority, dissident group. How do you justify that in a democratic system? The the minority draw their "right" to override the popular opinion because a set of inalienable natural rights was violated? If so, then you could make a case for a small group - like our community - rising up to secure the rights of an otherwise apathetic population. In that case, I suppose I'd be in the wrong, because I know what is happening and chose to do nothing. Rambling ...

This is why we are a Republic and not a democracy so we not have a tyrannical majority. If all that matters is going by whatever the majority of the people want there then is no point in having a bill of rights with enumerated powers and making it a crime of perjury to violate the Constitution. A country that goes soley by the will of the people is a mobcracy. If the majority of the American people voted to bomb the Czech Republic, you would want justice served on the polticians who did these bombings? That is why the Constitution is designed to prevent mob rule. We need to get people to beocme local police chiefs so they can issue fines against the criminals in Washington even if the majority is against it.

Brassmouth
12-20-2008, 07:11 PM
Yes, I think this is the crux of it. Since the very beginning, some have been wanting to piggyback their own agenda off of Ron Paul or the movement he brought together, or take it over altogether.

How can a movement be "taken over?" A movement is not a car or machine to be controlled, it's a group of individual thinkers.

Furthermore, Dr. Paul was never stupid enough to believe he would be elected president. The reason he ran was to oppose the war(s) and promote Austrian economics, as well as to attract more people to the libertarian movement; which, sorry to break it to you, he didn't create.

Anarcho-capitalism, like it or not, is the logical extension of those principles. We are just as much as part of this movement as the minarchists are, if not more so.


How about this --- you go build your own movement and be up front about what your goals and tactics are.


Considering the fact that Ron Paul was a founding member of the Mises Institute, an anarchist institution, I'd question the premise of just who should start their own movement. It's not us...