The Ruling Class

[LibertiORDeth]

Although I have previously held anarchist beliefs (and still do), after deep thought on the subject and viewing it from many different angles I have come to the conclusion that people need leadership, plain and simple. The majority of the population need to be controlled. Not necessarily abusively, as has been the case multiple times, or have to many powers, which also occurs, but nonetheless for nearly everybody (with the exception of a lot of those on this forum and others that think similarly) it is necessary to have a ruling class and a normal class, for that is the only way for them to survive. There is also a minority born to be leaders of these masses, and this is the natural Hopefully we will all evolve beyond this stage,, to the point where we can coexist peaceably with no rule. Until then, the only alternative for those caught in between (the people that neither require leading or following, but can survive on their own) is for them to create a separate existence elsewhere. However, the ruling powers of the general population won't allow this... So I guess the only alternative is to speed evolution on, and try to get us to the aforementioned ideal society. Which is about what everyone here is trying to do...

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

leadership does not require having power over others

and look at open source software as a powerful example of progress not requiring central leadership

all it takes is to stop empowering people from harming one another. that can not be done with the presence of "leadership" as we've come to know it

[LibertiORDeth]

leadership does not require having power over others

and look at open source software as a powerful example of progress not requiring central leadership

all it takes is to stop empowering people from harming one another. that can not be done with the presence of "leadership" as we've come to know it

True but at this point in time most people are unable to not HAVE leadership over them, open source software being a completely different topic. I never said it takes leadership to get anything done, I said without it society will crumble, because people are too ignorant.

[Michigan11]

Although I have previously held anarchist beliefs (and still do), after deep thought on the subject and viewing it from many different angles I have come to the conclusion that people need leadership, plain and simple. The majority of the population need to be controlled. Not necessarily abusively, as has been the case multiple times, or have to many powers, which also occurs, but nonetheless for nearly everybody (with the exception of a lot of those on this forum and others that think similarly) it is necessary to have a ruling class and a normal class, for that is the only way for them to survive. There is also a minority born to be leaders of these masses, and this is the natural Hopefully we will all evolve beyond this stage,, to the point where we can coexist peaceably with no rule. Until then, the only alternative for those caught in between (the people that neither require leading or following, but can survive on their own) is for them to create a separate existence elsewhere. However, the ruling powers of the general population won't allow this... So I guess the only alternative is to speed evolution on, and try to get us to the aforementioned ideal society. Which is about what everyone here is trying to do...

The society today is the result of being under the influence of these "elites" over the past hundred years. Prisoners, aren't very different than our society today. They are just further down the slope.

A free society would look and behave very differently. We need to figure out how to get this key to our own prison...

BTW...any prisoners that can add to this?

[LibertiORDeth]

The society today is the result of being under the influence of these "elites" over the past hundred years. Prisoners, aren't very different than our society today. They are just further down the slope.

A free society would look and behave very differently. We need to figure out how to get this key to our own prison...

BTW...any prisoners that can add to this?

However, in all of our recorded existence as humans I have yet to find an instance in which this is happened ("A free society would look and behave differently").

[FreedomFighter8008]

LibertiOrDeath, you should take a look at this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6732659166933078950

[libertea]

Hopefully we will all evolve beyond this stage,,




open source software being a completely different topic.


Open source is a giant leap in this evolution.

[brandon]

True but at this point in time most people are unable to not HAVE leadership over them, open source software being a completely different topic. I never said it takes leadership to get anything done, I said without it society will crumble, because people are too ignorant.


I do agree with your assessment that there is a subset of people who need leaders. There is also another subset who WANT a leader. And there is another subset who need followers! The thing is, anarchy isn't going to deprive these people of leadership or followers. It would just allow people like myself to opt out.

A stateless voluntary society would be full of leaders. We would have mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, bosses, teachers, priests, etc.

All of these people will play leadership roles if they desire.

[brandon]

I was actually just having this very conversation with my girlfriend the other night. I said to her "I have no desire to lead or follow". Almost the same exact words you used Liberti.

[NYgs23]

If you have to have a ruling class, make it hereditary, so that the rulers are selected by genetic chance and are clearly arbitrary. With democracy or "meritocracy," authoritarian types game the system to obtain power.

[mczerone]

If you have to have a ruling class, make it hereditary, so that the rulers are selected by genetic chance and are clearly arbitrary. With democracy or "meritocracy," authoritarian types game the system to obtain power.

To make it "clearly arbitrary" we should just select bingo balls out of a hopper to determine our leaders.

[lucius]

The society today is the result of being under the influence of these "elites" over the past hundred years. Prisoners, aren't very different than our society today. They are just further down the slope.

A free society would look and behave very differently. We need to figure out how to get this key to our own prison...

BTW...any prisoners that can add to this?

“Only enlightened humans can sustain enlightened leadership. In a democracy, the very survival of the state depends upon the intelligent cooperation of its people. They must live according to all aspects of the statutes which they have framed; no one is above the law. The ideal state, laws are few and simple, derived from certainties. In the corrupt state, laws are many and confused, because they have been derived from uncertainties. These corrupt laws are like the web of a spider which catches small insects but permits the stronger creatures to break through and escape.” Solon (a call from 2600 years ago)

So impair their self-determination, insure a constant venue of entertainment reinforcing sex and greed, install wealth balancing/welfare programs, create non-sensical divisive issues and pit one faction against the others, encourage the killing of their young, indoctrinate the children that survive, destroy their family units, control their access to information, encourage the worship of science and academia, and most important keep them in a constant state of fear--that sounds like a couple of pages out of the cryptocracy cookbook--tyranny is not a new idea.

Utopian dreams are always psychotic...

[ShannonOBrien]

What do real anarchists believe would happen if there was no government?

[LibertiORDeth]

If you have to have a ruling class, make it hereditary, so that the rulers are selected by genetic chance and are clearly arbitrary. With democracy or "meritocracy," authoritarian types game the system to obtain power.

An interesting point that I remember talking about in a previous post, about how I decided that we either needed to go completely one way or completely the other (anarchy or monarchy).

[LibertiORDeth]

What do real anarchists believe would happen if there was no government?

Believe or hope? It's pretty chancy, I can't speak for all anarchists but I would hope that everything would fall naturally into place, everyone would get along for the most part (at least as much as they do now) and hardly anybody would regret the move. It's quite experimental however, as I can't think of a time in history in which pure anarchy not brought on by a revolution existed.

[Xenophage]

An astute observation.

Anarchy is only possible in a society where a large majority of the people are rational and self-sufficient. There is also a case to be made that anarchy would breed rationality and self-sufficiency over a period of time, but alas: we've never seen it, and can only guess.

Galt's Gulch in Atlas Shrugged is the ideal utopian vision of a complete anarchy. Rand herself didn't believe anarchy could work on a grand scale, however, specifically because of the reason you pointed out. Anarchy in any society on earth today would tend to devolve rapidly into some form of tyranny.

Even a minarchist, constitutional Republic requires at least a simple majority of freedom-lovers to sustain itself. Thankfully, we DO have historic precedent to see the benefits of such societies and how they erode over time. Unfortunately for all of us here, we will never be completely successful in restoring our republic unless we can actually win the greater philosophic battle to change the hearts and minds of the people around us.

Sadder still, collective humanity seems to be tending toward stupidity as the decades roll by. Smart people don't breed much.

There are still, and always will be, geniuses among us. I hold out hope for a technological savior just in the nick of time - either genetic engineering, or the birth of the singularity (a massively intelligent supercomputer that will figure out how to solve all our problems for us and then get to work on it). I like Star Trek, however, and you might not.

Unfortunately, I don't think I'll ever live in a pure libertarian society. Maybe my grandchildren will.

[mediahasyou]

the only alternative is to speed evolution on, and try to get us to the aforementioned ideal society.

please do not do what Hitler did.

[mediahasyou]

Assuming people act in their own best interest, when not violating another's self-ownership is in everyone's best interest, they will do so.

Leaders do not create order, the structure of society does.