Spanking

[brandon]

This thread is about the use of spanking as discipline. For spanking as erotic activity, see erotic spanking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_spanking). For punishment as an erotic activity, see BDSM. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM)

Should it be legal to spank your child? When does it cross the line into abuse? Regardless of your opinion on the legal status of spanking, do you think spanking is a healthy practice? Were you spanked as a child?


Did you know that the US has close to the most lenient spanking laws in the world? Did you know that 24 countries outlaw spanking?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking#Legal_status

[Dr.3D]

Illegal or legal, I would spank a child when and if it needed it.
"Spare the rod and spoil the child."

[acptulsa]

Spanking is something used by those who cannot reason with a child or who think a child isn't human enough to be reasoned with. Once the kid learns to talk, a swat should only be necessary if the child has a natural prediliction toward being a psycho.

Of course, some children do have that trait, and their parents shouldn't have their hands tied because other parents are incompetent.

[newyearsrevolution08]

I was spanked as a child, I even spank my son from time to time. I used to do it more than I do now since he is getting older and can actually LISTEN to me and be able to communicate verbally. When he was younger, he was spanked when he did wrong BUT did it really help? I don't think so.

I think parents spank out of desperation, anger, irritated or just to STOP whatever is going on. I don't see it as a way to build up a kid to NOT do whatever he or she did to get spanked in the first place though.

It puts a fear in a kid about their parent.

"wait til dad gets home and you are gunna get it!"

puts a different message in a kids head then.

"wait til dad gets home so he can talk to you about what you did wrong and how we can help you fix that problem"

the second one seems to work better for me now, new parent, thought I had to be a hard ass to raise a son... who knows BUT what does work is talking with your kids versus spanking the bad out of em lol.

[phill4paul]

Spanking should only be allowed if you have had a terrible day at work, your wife is making the sign of the eight footed two horned armadillo with the immigrant yard worker and someone ate the last of the cheesy poofs.

Other than that it is abuse.

[Uriel999]

I was spanked as a kid and turned out okay.

[Matt Collins]

Depends on if your girl likes it or not I guess :D:p;)

[brandon]

Depends on if your girl likes it or not I guess :D:p;)

I edited the OP just for you. :rolleyes:

[newyearsrevolution08]

I was spanked as a kid and turned out okay.

says the guy who is in love with bunchies.......

[dannno]

Is it ok to spank bunchies?

[Dr.3D]

Spanking is something used by those who cannot reason with a child or who think a child isn't human enough to be reasoned with. Once the kid learns to talk, a swat should only be necessary if the child has a natural prediliction toward being a psycho.

Of course, some children do have that trait, and their parents shouldn't have their hands tied because other parents are incompetent.

Trying to reason with some little kids is like trying to teach a monkey to use a typewriter. When you tell a child not to do something, and they they continue to do it anyway, it is time to let them have a good firm pat on the butt.

If a policeman could only stand on the corner and yell at people who were running red lights, would the people pay any attention to him? Come on, reason only works if the person has a reason to listen.

[angelatc]

We spanked our kids. As far as I am concerned it works wonders. When they got older, simply telling them that a spanking was next worked fine. Especially if I was able to remind them that it would be really embarrassing if it had to happen right there in front of their friends.

I had little interest in explaining to my kids why I expected them to behave a certain way, especially when they were 5 and under. "Because I said so," was really all their teeny minds really needed to be concerned about. Because the threat was always implied, I didn't have to spank them very much, by my standards at least.

My younger son was probably about 4 when he decided to hit me because he didn't get his way about something. I was so angry that I just put him in his car seat and took his little butt home. I stuck him in his room, and fed him dinner there. He fell asleep, and when my husband got home (about 10:00 that night IIRC) and heard the story, he went marching right up the stairs, grabbed him, stood him up and spanked him a couple of swats.

He looked at him and said, "If you ever, ever hit your mother again you don't want to know what happens next. Do you understand that?" My little one was crying, but he nodded yes and we put him back in bed.

Never had another incident, but 6 years later his older brother still talks about how freaked out they both were that night. I can't imagine that sitting down and talking to him would have had the same effect.

I have been in playgroups and sports and scouts and schools with a myriad of kids from a multitude of backgrounds, and my firm opinion is that children who aren't spanked are always insufferable brats with parents who don't discipline enough. We spanked, and rarely needed to use "time outs" because a look from me was usually enough.

[heavenlyboy34]

Is it ok to spank bunchies?

Only if he lets you. ;) Spanking never worked on me, so I'm surprised it worked for so many on this thread. :O

[angelatc]

Spanking is something used by those who cannot reason with a child or who think a child isn't human enough to be reasoned with. .

Snicker - just curious....do you have kids? Because I can absolutely assure you that the abilities to listen and talk have very little to do with the ability to reason.

[M House]

I always thought spanking was near pointless. Whoopee-do your child fears your hand on it's butt. I was a spanked a few times as a child and I'm not even sure what the issues were, lame. Should the government dictate what methods you should use, nope. Though using fear and aggression has got to be the most inefficient method to train just about anything. Going to a dog trainer they don't start spanking your pooch, but they do sometimes use those choke collars so whatever.

[heavenlyboy34]

I always thought spanking was near pointless. Whoopee-do your child fears your hand on it's butt. I was a spanked a few times as a child and I'm not even sure what the issues were, lame. Should the government dictate what methods you should use, nope. Though using fear and aggression has got to be the most inefficient method to train just about anything. Going to a dog trainer they don't start spanking your pooch, but they do sometimes use those choke collars so whatever.

Tell that to the Pavlovians. ;):rolleyes:

[raystone]

I was spanking my 4 year old son a few years while telling him it was wrong to hit his little sister. As you may guess, I had an epiphany and haven't hit my kids since, just spend more time teaching consequences for their behavior and trying to model the best behavior possible.

[phill4paul]

Snicker - just curious....do you have kids? Because I can absolutely assure you that the abilities to listen and talk have very little to do with the ability to reason.

Which is why my parents chose to brand me with a hot iron as a child. Irt only took eight "bad boy" brands for me to wise up.

Hey spanking...branding... it's only a matter of degrees.

[Deborah K]

I used to tell my kids: "Either listen with your ears or listen with your behind." They usually chose their ears.

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

Do I think spanking is an ideal form of discipline? Not really. In most cases it's definitely not going to hurt, though, not nearly as much as giving the state more leverage in a parent's life and opening a door for fraudulent claims of child abuse.

[Kludge]

Woohoo! Single voice of dissent again. Spanking any other person would be assault... no different for kids. You don't spank the mentally retarded when they're bad. You reason with them, and if not possible, take away good (ground, take away toys, don't go to Disneyworld, etc. etc.). Disable good, don't enable bad.

If you really have to, give 'em a good drink.

[phill4paul]

Woohoo! Single voice of dissent again.

I think not.

[BuddyRey]

Spanking is primarily for crude people who lack creativity. There are many ways to discipline your children that are much more effective, and have much more of a deterrent factor.

I don't think it should be illegal, but I think it's brutal and disgusting.

[Uriel999]

says the guy who is in love with bunchies.......

I'm not in love with bunchies, I just want to respect their right to be a smiley free and liberated on RPF. :D


Trying to reason with some little kids is like trying to teach a monkey to use a typewriter. When you tell a child not to do something, and they they continue to do it anyway, it is time to let them have a good firm pat on the butt.

If a policeman could only stand on the corner and yell at people who were running red lights, would the people pay any attention to him? Come on, reason only works if the person has a reason to listen.

Exactly.

[Kludge]

I think not.

It should be illegal http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/polls/bar4-r.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/clear.gif 1 2.70%
ORLY?

[Matt Collins]

I edited the OP just for you. :rolleyes:

This thread is about the use of spanking as discipline. For spanking as erotic activity, see erotic spanking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_spanking). For punishment as an erotic activity, see BDSM. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM)



Thanks for clearing that up :p:D

[satchelmcqueen]

spanking is good for the kid if done right.

i got it as a kid and it worked.

my kids get it when needed.

[angelatc]

Spanking is primarily for crude people who lack creativity. There are many ways to discipline your children that are much more effective, and have much more of a deterrent factor.

I don't think it should be illegal, but I think it's brutal and disgusting.

LOL! Like what? Name one. What has more of a deterrent factor than a swat on the butt? Time outs? Taking a toy away?

LOL!!!!

Again, how many of you anti-spankers have kids?

Again, people that don't spank their kids have brats living in their house. It's that pure for me.

[TinyMachines]

I was spanked as a child, more when I was very young. It didn't really make me understand why what I did was wrong...but it did make me much sneakier. All the kids in my family learned how to be invisible when needed (and my parents had 8 kids.) We all hid when my father got home. At the time I thought it was okay because the Bible mentioned it and my father didn't want to spank us. But now I realize it was clearly abuse. Only one of my dad's children still speak to him.

What is annoying, with more than one kid, my parents punished the wrong child pretty often. One year I made a list of all the wrongful spankings I got that year and gave it to my dad for christmas. That's about the age where they stopped spanking me anymore.

[phill4paul]

It should be illegal http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/polls/bar4-r.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/clear.gif 1 2.70%
ORLY?

You are correct, sir. Though I have spoken out against it I did not choose that it should be illegal on the poll. I chose "other".

Branding with a hot iron worked for me. It is my "gut instinct" that it will work for others.

[heavenlyboy34]

LOL! Like what? Name one. What has more of a deterrent factor than a swat on the butt? Time outs? Taking a toy away?

LOL!!!!

Again, how many of you anti-spankers have kids?

Again, people that don't spank their kids have brats living in their house. It's that pure for me.

I don't have kids, but I've been a kid. ;) If you're good at psychology, you don't need to spank, IMHO. I don't have the solution, but I'm sure we have some psychologists here that do.

My sis was spanked, but she still turned out to be a brat, so your evidence is pretty weak. :p

btw, some resources for you-
http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=is+spanking+effective&d=74566765379623&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=8bdbb595,2271649c

[angelatc]

You are correct, sir. Though I have spoken out against it I did not choose that it should be illegal on the poll. I chose "other".

Branding with a hot iron worked for me. It is my "gut instinct" that it will work for others.

Oh grow up. There's a huge difference between a branding iron and a swat on the butt.

If you're not smart enough to know the difference then....well, I'll stop there.

[acptulsa]

Snicker - just curious....do you have kids? Because I can absolutely assure you that the abilities to listen and talk have very little to do with the ability to reason.

I've done the stepdad thing with abused kids. If you pay attention to them when they're good and ignore them or reason with them when they aren't (No, I'm not going to spank you--I want you to stop doing this dangerous thing because I don't want you to get hurt) you find that, one, they act up because it's the only way to get attention, and two, you're their new hero.

Special case, I admit. Certainly it's undeniable that someone had already 'gotten their attention' so I didn't have to.

One hell of a fine pair of young gentlemen. Hope they're still o.k.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is, punishment must be just. You have to have a reason and you have to explain it. Spoiled kids and abused kids have variations of the same problem. One thinks there's no such thing as consequences, the other thinks consequences come no matter what. Neither learn what they need to know--that actions have consequences.

[Freedom 4 all]

I think I might have got spanked one or two times but overall I grew up in a very anti spanking home and I turned out all right. I don't think I'll do it when I have kids. I don't believe it's an effective form of discipline and more and more studies are showing it actually increases certain behavioral problems. Making spanking illegal however is insanity.

[angelatc]

I don't have kids, but I've been a kid. ;) If you're good at psychology, you don't need to spank, IMHO. I don't have the solution, but I'm sure we have some psychologists here that do.

My sis was spanked, but she still turned out to be a brat, so your evidence is pretty weak. :p

My best friends in Illinois were the nicest people you could ever imagine. He was a psychiatrist, and she had her PhD in Marriage and Family Therapy. Their kids were the most awful children you can ever imagine.

I've seen plenty of professional solutions that don't work in action.

My kids aren't perfect, but I guarantee you that they are at least well behaved when grown-ups are watching.

[angelatc]

I think I might have got spanked one or two times but overall I grew up in a very anti spanking home and I turned out all right. I don't think I'll do it when I have kids. I don't believe it's an effective form of discipline and more and more studies are showing it actually increases certain behavioral problems. Making spanking illegal however is insanity.

Pish. More and more studies produced by liberal idiots, you mean.

[revolutionist]

Can you walk up to someone on the street and spank them? No, it's assault.


Why are kids any different? Just because they are your children does not mean that they are your property.

[Freedom 4 all]

Pish. More and more studies produced by liberal idiots, you mean.

Well, if a near consensus in the APA is just a bunch of liberal idiots then yeah. The problem with spanking is it doesn't teach the child what he/she did was wrong, it teaches them not to get caught next time. Only reason actually places in moral values. Spanking also teaches that violence is an effective solution to any problem you may have with someone smaller/weaker than yourself.

[Kludge]

Results are unimportant anyway. Y'all are arguing whether or not we should bailout the "Big Three" based on potential outcomes instead of whether or not the "solution" is ethical.

[phill4paul]

Oh grow up. There's a huge difference between a branding iron and a swat on the butt.

If you're not smart enough to know the difference then....well, I'll stop there.

Now we come to it!

What defines a spanking?

Is it a swat on the wrist as a child reaches for the hot stove? Is it a "It is gonna hurt me more than it is gonna hurt you" butt spanking?

Or is it a belt? Worse yet is it a belt buckle? Or in my case a bubber nippled ping pong paddle (parents don't try this at home).

The point is you don't have to. If you raise your kid right they will look up to you as a Christian would Christ. Merely falling out of your grace would deter them.

In a family of four children that didn't "spare the rod" one sibling stood out and raised a generation without "spanking". That siblings children are the most well adapted and behaved as I have ever met.

Disclaimer: I have no Guvment statistics to back this claim up, nor do I have children of my own. I do, however "borrow" them on occasion when ask to.

[dannno]

Why are kids any different? Just because they are your children does not mean that they are your property.


This country was built on kids helping out on the farm and having chores, etc.

In fact, summer vacation in school was specifically designed for kids who worked on farms so they could go home and help harvest.

What is your opinion about that?

I'm pretty big on giving kids rights and whatnot, but I still think there is a great amount of responsibility and authority assumed by the parent.

[angelatc]

I've done the stepdad thing with abused kids. If you pay attention to them when they're good and ignore them or reason with them when they aren't (No, I'm not going to spank you--I want you to stop doing this dangerous thing because I don't want you to get hurt) you find that, one, they act up because it's the only way to get attention, and two, you're their new hero.

That's a bunch of crap right there. Kids don't act up to get attention, they do things they aren't supposed to do because they want to.

My kids had plenty of attention. I was a work at home Mom then a stay-home Mom who didn't even do preschool.

Like I said, I was never interested in explaining myself to my kids. I am the Mom, and therefore the boss. "Why" is not really the concern of toddlers.

[Dr.3D]

Well, if a near consensus in the APA is just a bunch of liberal idiots then yeah. The problem with spanking is it doesn't teach the child what he/she did was wrong, it teaches them not to get caught next time. Only reason actually places in moral values. Spanking also teaches that violence is an effective solution to any problem you may have with someone smaller/weaker than yourself.

And all along, I thought a parent would explain to the child why it was being spanked. It is not a punishment, but rather a form of discipline, where the child learns that their actions bring about other actions.

This whole anti-spanking crap came along when a fellow named Dr. Benjamin Spock wrote a stupid book about raising children. After many years and the ruining of a nation, Dr. Spock finally recognized he had been wrong about spanking and without it we will end up with a lot of problems in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Spock

The big problem now is so many of those books were sold and so many people followed his bad advise, there is still a following of uninformed people who don't know he changed his mind.

Edit: Another very good site to read.
http://www.goodparent.org/articles/spankingcomeback.htm

[phill4paul]

I've done the stepdad thing with abused kids. If you pay attention to them when they're good and ignore them or reason with them when they aren't (No, I'm not going to spank you--I want you to stop doing this dangerous thing because I don't want you to get hurt) you find that, one, they act up because it's the only way to get attention, and two, you're their new hero.

Special case, I admit. Certainly it's undeniable that someone had already 'gotten their attention' so I didn't have to.

One hell of a fine pair of young gentlemen. Hope they're still o.k.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is, punishment must be just. You have to have a reason and you have to explain it. Spoiled kids and abused kids have variations of the same problem. One thinks there's no such thing as consequences, the other thinks consequences come no matter what. Neither learn what they need to know--that actions have consequences.



That's a bunch of crap right there. Kids don't act up to get attention, they do things they aren't supposed to do because they want to.

My kids had plenty of attention. I was a work at home Mom then a stay-home Mom who didn't even do preschool.

Like I said, I was never interested in explaining myself to my kids. I am the Mom, and therefore the boss. "Why" is not really the concern of toddlers.

LOL I love it when people call others life experience "crap". Your domestic situation seems to have worked for you. His for him. Mine for mine. Of the three which seems to be out of sorts?

[M House]

I kinda think it's a misconception that spanking has anything to do with results you achieve. I think there was study that looked into prisons. I'll have to look it up again but I think nearly everyone there in the study had some form of spanking or other physical punishment as a child.

After working at a summer camp, I kinda think the best way to remove behavior issues is to look at the attention aspect. Simply interacting with the children who weren't acting like idiots and ignoring those that did, had the most dramatic effect on anything. I don't think the majority of adults spend anywhere near the amount of time necessary to mentally engage an develop a child, fully. People will commit all sorts of destructive behaviors when bored, and your own child doesn't intrinsically want to irritate and piss you off. Give them a reason to thru hostility and punishment or ignoring their attempts at peaceful engagement, you will have a problem.

[revolutionist]

This country was built on kids helping out on the farm and having chores, etc.

In fact, summer vacation in school was specifically designed for kids who worked on farms so they could go home and help harvest.

What is your opinion about that?

I'm pretty big on giving kids rights and whatnot, but I still think there is a great amount of responsibility and authority assumed by the parent.


True, but that doesn't justify assault.

[Kilrain]

I was spanked as a kid and turned out okay.

I was not spanked as a kid and I turned into a Ron Paul supporter.

Anyway, it's not really for me to say. If spanking is used in an abusive way or if you actually hurt the child, not the temporary kind of hurt that goes away in two minutes, it should be just as illegal as taking a swing at an adult, but when it comes to "minor spanking", what you do in your family is none of my business.

And yes, I know that there's probably a fine line between "abusive spanking" and "minor spanking".

[Dr.3D]

I was not spanked as a kid and I turned into a Ron Paul supporter.

I was spanked as a kid by both my parents and the teachers at school and I turned into a Ron Paul supporter. Guess being spanked as a kid doesn't make a difference about whether you like freedom or not.

[Kilrain]

I was spanked as a kid by both my parents and the teachers at school and I turned into a Ron Paul supporter. Guess being spanked as a kid doesn't make a difference about whether you like freedom or not.

I wrote that with a twinkle in my eye, if you know what I mean. :)

[wizardwatson]

I don't like to use physical force on my kid. When he does something wrong, generally I'll use some type of timeout, or grounding, or stern talking, or privilege confiscation, or guilt trip, etc.

But...

When he is being dangerous or violent or is doing something that could seriously hurt himself or others I will use spanking or hand slapping.

Just a couple weeks ago he thought it was funny knocking metal pans off the overhead hooks and nearly hit his grandmother in the head with one. He's only 5 but still, I think sometimes when you want to make a point that something absolutely will not be tolerated, not only for the good of others but for his own good, spanking has its place.

And I can't believe some people on here are trying to say spanking your kid is assault. Is it assault when my kid comes up and punches me in the gut for shits and giggles, which he does quite frequently? No, because there's no criminal intent. Just like there's no criminal intent when you spank your kid.

And children should always have the right to run away if they want.

[mediahasyou]

Only if there is consent.

[Freedom 4 all]

And all along, I thought a parent would explain to the child why it was being spanked. It is not a punishment, but rather a form of discipline, where the child learns that their actions bring about other actions.

This whole anti-spanking crap came along when a fellow named Dr. Benjamin Spock wrote a stupid book about raising children. After many years and the ruining of a nation, Dr. Spock finally recognized he had been wrong about spanking and without it we will end up with a lot of problems in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Spock

The big problem now is so many of those books were sold and so many people followed his bad advise, there is still a following of uninformed people who don't know he changed his mind.

Edit: Another very good site to read.
http://www.goodparent.org/articles/spankingcomeback.htm

Dr. Dobson, James freaking Dobson from Focus on Facism? You're going to take what HE says seriously. Come on, the dude is living back in the middle ages and knows jack about child psychology. Also I don't see anywhere where Dr. "real doctor" Spock ever took back his position on spanking.

[M House]

I don't get what's the hate on Dr. Spock for being lax or something, he says you should ignore your whining brat and put them on a rigid feeding schedule. Seems he's baffled too just looking at his quote on the wiki article.

[acptulsa]

That's a bunch of crap right there. Kids don't act up to get attention...

If this is true of your kids, congratulations. You aren't raising abused kids.

But you might try dealing with some before you call my statement crap. Just sayin'...

If kids were all the same, we'd also all be the same, and liberty would be much less necessary. Wouldn't it?

[Time for Change]

spare the rod, spoil the child

[TinyMachines]

spare the rod, spoil the child

already stated.

[Time for Change]

already stated.

it needed to be said again! :D

[TinyMachines]

Not really. We hear cliches everyday. They stop people from thinking. This one has especially done a good job of that.

[satchelmcqueen]

I don't have kids, but I've been a kid. ;) If you're good at psychology, you don't need to spank, IMHO. I don't have the solution, but I'm sure we have some psychologists here that do.

My sis was spanked, but she still turned out to be a brat, so your evidence is pretty weak. :p

btw, some resources for you-
http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=is+spanking+effective&d=74566765379623&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=8bdbb595,2271649c

whats up green bunchie? :D

if you ever do have kids, please post an update after the child moves out.:)

[Original_Intent]

I didn't like any of the options.

I don't think it is a great way to discipline a child, but there are times that it is called for and really depends on the child.

My personal feeling is it should never be done while you are angry.

My oldest I only ever spanked a couple of times, and never when angry.

My youngest I spanked a few more times and spanked while I was angry ONCE. That was a bad experience for both of us, I spanked him too hard that time.

After that I would always say,

"Do that again, and you are getting spanked." (this after several other attempts to get him to behave)

Then when he did it again - "OK you are getting spanked in 15 minutes. Go to your room and think about what you did and why you are getting a spank."

And I always delivered, but it gave me time to make sure I was cooled down, and honestly I think the 15 minutes of thinking about being spanked was more effective than the spank.

I do think that spanking should be a last resort, and also only if it was a pretty major offense that could get someone hurt. (i.e. playing with the stove, playing in the street, hitting brother with pool cue...:rolleyes:)

Both teenagers now so no more spanks - yay!

[heavenlyboy34]

whats up green bunchie? :D

if you ever do have kids, please post an update after the child moves out.:)

If RPF is still around then, I will. :)

[QCB79]

It really depends on the kid, some just don't care what you do to discipline them they still dont give up. I have a daughter and although I normally don't spank her, I will if the situation warrants it. Now my daughter is pretty well behaved, every once in awhile she gets a time out or the tv get shut off for a little while and usually the only thing I have to discipline her about is copping an attitude.

I've dated women with kids that were totally out of control, I remember one in particular, her kid was almost unbearable and she didnt care if you spanked her, it didnt phase her one bit.
I remember one day this kid, she was like 4 at the time, actually got in my face when i was sitting in a chair and she points her finger in my face and starts to try and tell me off. I moved her hand out of my face and told her she needs to learn soem manners and her mom tried to put her in time out. all she did was slide off the couch kicking and screaming at the top of her lungs. she would scream until she choked and turned blue.

My brother and I were both spanked when we were growing up and we both turned out ok. We also learned not to disrespect our parents or there were consequences. I have noticed a trend over the past generation, ever since the anti-spanking, coddle your kids to death people came along. The majority of kids have zero respect for anyone or anything, i've seen them get up in their parents face screaming and they all seem to have this attitude of I can do what I want and theres nothing you can do about it.


Could just be coincidence but my generation (x) didnt have that kind of disrespect that I see now.

[Conza88]

spare the rod, spoil the child


already stated.



"The problem with fundamentalists insisting on a literal interpretation of the Bible is that the meaning of words change. A prime example is 'Spare the rod, spoil the child.'

A rod was a stick used by shepherds to guide their sheep to go in the desired direction. Shepherds did not use it to beat their sheep. The proper translation of the saying is 'Give your child guidance, or they will go astray.' It does not mean 'Beat the shit out of your child or he will become rotten' as many fundamentalist parents seem to believe."

Yeaaaaaaah uhhhh.. :rolleyes:

My opinion about it is balance. Discipline until the child is able to fully control themselves, or at least able to reason - however primitive.. i.e out and about. I would ALWAYS say WHY they did what they did was wrong. Otherwise how will they learn.

The parents are responsible for their children.

No kids... so yeah, take it with a grain of salt. :D

I think one point of topic; for reasoning with them - you have too DUMB it down... small words, small sentences, a story, a parable, an example.... - HOW would YOU feel if someone did that too you? Try develop a sense of empathy in them.

But they also need to get some physical hits (sport, etc..) don't cuddle them or over protect them... let them run wild imo.

I also think a lot of parents get jealous of the fun their kids have.. or it is envy. There is no pressure, everything provided for them, not a care in the world. Mum and dad have to pay the mortgage, stress at work, etc etc.. it would seem a fair few parents take out some of that stress on the kids or family.

I remember thinking... "all we're doing is having fun." And I remember writing down my thoughts, as to some guidelines I should remember for when I become an ADULT, so I can address kids in the proper way - or at least REMEMBER what it was like to be one.. lol think I was about 8. Anyway, that list is long gone... wld be cool if I found it, doubt it though.

It's probably a fine line... the kids reasoning is "all we're doing is jumping up and down on the bed"... They don't make the logical connection, it could break - so mum and dad would then have to pay for it, which would set them back in savings, or whatever (if they are doing it tough)

The fine line is - do you tell that to your kid, mom and dad are struggling with payments, if you break the bed - we can't afford to go to the movies... LOL, of course not - way to ruin a kids ignorant bliss. They have no control over the situation, so why heap the worry on them.

If anything that is FAR more cruel, than simply saying "Because mommy said so" - and a smack on the ass, as a reminder.

Physical abuse which is TEMPORARY (pain for 10 minutes?) or the knowledge that mom and dad are struggling in some way... That lasts more than 10 minutes, thats for sure.. months even.
*shurgs*

[asimplegirl]

I agree with spanking- not abuse, but spanking. That being said, it should not be your first and foremost go to punishment IMHO, but if you do that, it's not my business.

[Anti Federalist]

"Other"

It's none of your, or government's, business how I raise my children.

[Working Poor]

I think a thump on the rump to a small child to get their attention is okay and only on the area where the diaper has the most padding and if they don't where diapers than they are old enough to listen and be talked to.. If your children won't listen to you it is your fault and to beat them because you don't know how to be parent sucks and you are wrong.

But, never is a belt,paddle, or object to be used. This spare the rod stuff is taken out of context. The "rod" is a Shepard's tool used to keep the sheep from falling off the side of cliffs, to guide them, and pull them back out of harms way. I think "spare the rod" is like a metaphor is not to used for beating children with....So to me it means guide your children and keep them from falling off cliffs.

My kids are really cool too....

[driller80545]

My sons wanted spankings. Every time I said "if you do that, I will spank you", they did it and then I spanked them. Always hurt me more than them. But they inherited the hard headedness and it has served them well (as it did me) in their adult lives.

[asimplegirl]

I think a thump on the rump to a small child to get their attention is okay and only on the area where the diaper has the most padding and if they don't where diapers than they are old enough to listen and be talked to.. If your children won't listen to you it is your fault and to beat them because you don't know how to be parent sucks and you are wrong.

But, never is a belt,paddle, or object to be used. This spare the rod stuff is taken out of context. The "rod" is a Shepard's tool used to keep the sheep from falling off the side of cliffs, to guide them, and pull them back out of harms way. I think "spare the rod" is like a metaphor is not to used for beating children with....So to me it means guide your children and keep them from falling off cliffs.

My kids are really cool too....

Once again, we differ on child rearing. I will spank my child with what ever I determine to be used, as long as I am not beating them, there is no reason for anyone else to care. Secondly, Children of the age to be "talked to" are also more prone to not listening and doing what they want, so they also deserve to be spanked if they do something bad enough. Thirdly, what the hell could a child in a DIAPER do that is bad enough to be "spanked" anyway? I mean I spanking a child out of diapers is out of the question, but a child who cannot even speak is completely acceptable?


If your children won't listen to you it is your fault and to beat them because you don't know how to be parent sucks and you are wrong.

Again, not always. I will give you a few years, your child is obviously too young to have other influences such as grandparents, other children, and parents of friends.

Edited to say, I see that you have said in another thread that you have raised MANY kids.... Anyway, just as I said there, sometimes the kids are just ass goblins...even when growing up in a completely healthy loving environment...you cannot always blame the parents of the child.

[Time for Change]

I know you don't really think that people who believe in spanking are out there beating the hell out of their kids with a shepherd's rod?
I assume you are just goofing around.

So to me it means guide your children and keep them from falling off cliffs.

Well said!!

Most of the answers here make perfect sense...a swat to get their attention, a couple swats to reinforce a previous warning, but not a flat out beating.

Remember...we are talking about our own children here...part of us.
THose precious little people that love the hell out of us no matter how shitty the day at work went.

THis is not directed at any specific individual in this thread...just a generalization...
If you don't have kids and are simply resentful of past spankings, you don't really have a dog in this fight because you don't have the experience of a parent in the given situation.

A normal parent is not going to beat their own child senseless, or hit them with hard objects out of rage...
It is the rare few that probably should not have reproduced in the first place that are usually guilty of really hurting their kids...many times not their own kids either...step kids.
Most importantly...it is those few numbskulls that the proven crooked media will plaster all over the thought programming and control box (known as TV) and dramatically report til the cows come home until all the sheep think like they are supposed to think.

It is sickening to know there are adults out there with no control or rational thinking abilities, but they exist none-the-less.
People do stupid shit all the time and it is NOT just related to being harsh on the kids.
Outlaw stupidity while outlawing discipline and the stupid people will remain oblivious to the legalities regardless of the legislation.

What I am attempting to say is... parenting falls well within individual responsibility.
The parents are responsible for the calibration of their own child's moral compass.
Teaching the child to use their own judgment with an understanding of the fact that there may be consequences involved with their decisions, that may include a swat on the keester (or two) sometimes helps the kid learn to think things through.

There are many benefits and shortcomings with any means of discipline...but the means of correcting the child are the responsibility and private business of the parents alone.

This is coming from a guy with 2 kids, who has deserved and received many spankings himself over the years, and has found it necessary to give a couple spankings in 18 years...so take it as you will.

Spanking is sometimes a necessary evil, an effective (occasional) leverage tool (the threat of punishment is far worse than the actual punishment sometimes) and should remain the 100% private business of the parents.

Seriously, when was it that society took the turn and said that spanking is the root of all evil and should be outlawed. Just give the kid these pills indefinitely and a game console in front of a large flat panel TV and they won’t want to get into trouble any more.

[asimplegirl]

Oh, my Gosh, I wish there were a thank you button.

[satchelmcqueen]

Once again, we differ on child rearing. I will spank my child with what ever I determine to be used, as long as I am not beating them, there is no reason for anyone else to care. Secondly, Children of the age to be "talked to" are also more prone to not listening and doing what they want, so they also deserve to be spanked if they do something bad enough. Thirdly, what the hell could a child in a DIAPER do that is bad enough to be "spanked" anyway? I mean I spanking a child out of diapers is out of the question, but a child who cannot even speak is completely acceptable?


Again, not always. I will give you a few years, your child is obviously too young to have other influences such as grandparents, other children, and parents of friends.

Edited to say, I see that you have said in another thread that you have raised MANY kids.... Anyway, just as I said there, sometimes the kids are just ass goblins...even when growing up in a completely healthy loving environment...you cannot always blame the parents of the child.


i dont know how old you are, but did you ever get whipped with the Hot Wheels race track section? (straight piece?) man did that get my attention!

[Mini-Me]

If you discipline your first child well enough, the mere threat of punishment will work on his/her younger siblings. For instance, my parents used to tell my little sisters that if they misbehaved, they'd give them a white napkin, a wooden block, and a knife, and force them to slice off a joint of their pinky finger themselves, wrap it in the napkin, and present to my dad as a gift. Apparently, they never really took the threat seriously, and they just laughed it off, until one day the older one got in so much trouble that my parents decided to give her the shock of her life. They sat her down on the couch, wheeled a large box from their closet into the living room on a dolly, and released me from my Skinner box to meet them for the first time. Once they saw my hands, they never disobeyed my parents again. Today, I'm a free man, but I type with my knuckles, and I'm not a fan of authoritarian parenting. I guess I turned out alright, though. ;)

Seriously though, this is an interesting discussion. My own experience tells me that spankings are pretty useless for the most part, but I'm a pretty unusual case...I was spanked a few times when I was a toddler for silly offenses, but I never was spanked as punishment after that. I doubt the spankings had the intended effect anyway, because I couldn't have possibly done anything all that dangerous or morally wrong anyway that I should have known better about (the worst thing I did that earned a spanking was probably when I ruined and almost entirely unravelled one of my favorite socks during naptime, trying to get rid of a loose string, and then blamed it on my imaginary friend :rolleyes: ). I was also hit a couple times or so in a flash of anger for no particularly good reason, but that obviously wasn't discipline, so that doesn't count. Throughout most of my early childhood, time-outs were the main method of punishment. I can remember sitting in time-out and tracing the designs on the chair, but I can't really remember what I ever did to get it...odds are I was probably just getting out of hand and needed to cool down or something. Later on in my childhood, groundings were the main method of punishment. Those didn't really work all that well, though...even though I was a pretty good kid and adults always loved me, I was stubborn as hell, and the one and only way to make me change my behavior was to convincingly explain to me why my behavior was wrong, hurtful, etc. The problem for my parents (my dad especially) was that they could rarely ever put forth a convincing argument, because the "worst" of my behavior was pretty much talking back and arguing about the unfairness of undeserved groundings (which generally followed every report card and parent-teacher conference, since I always got in trouble for talking in class and trying to make friends...for about six years straight :rolleyes: ). Actually, my mom even feels bad about all of the groundings now.

The point of all this: In my case, "discipline" of any kind didn't contribute much whatsoever to my manners or morals...although it certainly helped me hone my rebellious side, because I fought tooth and nail against every minor and petty injustice I was dealt, no matter how much worse the consequences would be because of it. ;) Rather than discipline, I think there was one and only one thing that instilled a moral code and sense of decency in me: Many of the most important adults in my life took the time out of their everyday lives to teach me and help me understand how to be a good person and what it means, and my mom in particular always valued that as a trait above pretty much all else. My mom and other family members always had very high expectations of me, and they made sure I knew what they valued in people. Combined with them constantly stating their high opinion of me, I think I developed along the path I did in the initial stages because I didn't want to let them down.

I like a lot of people's posts in this thread, especially Freedom 4 all's, wizardwatson's, conza's, and Original Intent's. I'm not a parent yet, so my views might not "count," but here's my perspective:
Discipline works to make sure your children understand troglodyte-inspired concepts like authority, punishment, and reward, but that alone will only bring them up to stage one or so of Kohlberg's stages of moral development. ;) Discipline focuses on the behavior, and it can effectively prevent poor or hurtful behavior on a temporary or even a permanent basis, but it's nowhere near enough to give a child a meaningful understanding of morality or what kind of person they should strive to be. Even though most adults behave well enough to successfully function in society and play nice with others, I feel as though very few are particularly "good people" at heart. Sure, most people are capable of love and empathy to a greater or lesser extent, but so few ever really move beyond the shallow morality of children. I don't just want my kids to grow up to be merely functional and superficially moral enough to avoid public displays of flagrant asshattery; I want them to grow up to be exceptionally moral. It's important to me that they grow up with a universal sense of empathy, a strong personal sense of justice, and firm principles. I want them to understand that doing the right thing just because it's the right thing is not only an end in and of itself, it's the single most important concept they should base their lives around.

Obviously, discipline alone isn't going to achieve all that, but I'm sure it will become necessary to get things under control on occasion and to stress consequences for actions. I don't foresee any spankings though, unless my kids do something that's dangerous to themselves or to others (as someone else said, if they ever do something that absolutely must not be tolerated under any circumstances, I'd have no choice but to send an immediate message that I mean serious business). On the whole, I don't see how they're any more effective at stopping/preventing poor behavior than using other kinds of discipline or deterrents, and they certainly don't teach any kind of moral lesson...especially if they're done in anger, which really sends the wrong message. Making spankings illegal may be downright insanity, but it still doesn't mean any kind of physical punishment is a particularly good idea. I know a whole family of quite successful people who "turned out just fine" by all appearances after an upbringing filled with corporal punishment and "strong discipline," but beneath the surface, at least half of them are shockingly cruel, abusive, and evil people. Besides, spankings wouldn't be very consistent with everything I want to teach my kids anyway, and I'm sure they'd eventually call me on it. ;) When it's necessary to discipline them for acting out of line, I'll probably opt for rescinding privileges and putting them in time-out to make them cool off. If they commit some particular offense against another person (like hitting each other, biting each other, etc.), I'm sure I can come up with some creative form of justice that will force them to make full amends with their victim. :D

Bottom line: Discipline affects behavior, but to make your child into a good person, I think you need to work on a deeper level, and not just following some "incident" either. When discipline does become necessary though, I don't really see the point of spankings other than proving your physical dominance and ruling by fear, and any kind of corporal punishment might do more harm than good.

[Working Poor]

Nothing teaches a child like as well as the example you set for them.

Children learn what they live.

If your child is running to the street and a car is coming and you already know they don't listen to you is screaming at them to stop going to make them stop? I hope so....but you might ought to go get them and pull them to safety.

[asimplegirl]

no, mine does not run out into the street...tried once but got a good 'ole case of the red ass real quick, has yet to try it again. He will actually stop far from the street.


As I said, I think you can do what works for your kids, as long as you aren't beating them... and setting an example is ALWAYS needed.

and, no, I never got a spankin' or woopin' down here with that track, lol, but have had it with a few strange things, including one of those huge flat lego land pieces. That crap hurt. And a water hose. And a wooden spoon. And a comb. And flyswatter (talk about pain)...I have had it plenty. lol.

[Original_Intent]

I'm always willing to sit down and talk to my kids - without precondition. However, I do not think it would be appropriate to talk about taking anything off the table.

:D

[asimplegirl]

yeah, sure talking is cool..as I said before spanking should not be your first response unless it something that merits that type of punishment. But you had better believe that belt gets used in this house..has only had to happen about four times in 6 years, though, so I would say it works pretty well until they forget that old feeling and need a reminder :)....then just the threat works out.. "I am going to get your daddy" usually is answered with "nuh-uh don't, I will stop". Works out pretty well, and I don't feel bad about that either.

[Working Poor]

When I saw that my children were not listening to me I would pick them up if they were small enough and if not I would go hug them.

Another thing I wish to say about whippings and pulling children by their limbs.... as a person who does work with physical therapist I can attest that many people who have shoulder and hip displacement is due to the use of physical discipline and suffer life long pain because of it. I have seen many children who's limbs have been dislocated due to parents picking them up by one arm and swatting them on the butt. This happen even in the most loving homes.

I cannot tell you how many adults tell me in the course of treatment that they remember being picked up by the arms or hit too hard in the rear. The body has memory too and when treating pain it can often be pin pointed back to times when parents have used physical punishment.

If possible never pick your children up by one arm as this can very likely damage the shoulder, wrist and elbow joints. Always support the neck of a child who cannot yet sit up on their own when you pick them up.

Often children don't know that their shoulder or hip is not supposed to hurt.

[asimplegirl]

When I saw that my children were not listening to me I would pick them up if they were small enough and if not I would go hug them

I just nearly pissed myself... thanks for the laughs.




The body has memory too and when treating pain it can often be pin pointed back to times when parents have used physical punishment.

Hang on. What? Yes, my shoulders often times recall their bad childhoods. Many nights I lie awake with them pestering me. The cry out, "hey, pssst, i am injured.... my ch-ch-childhooooood"



BTW, this is about spanking, not abuse, which would include the ripping off of limbs, and lips, and such, lol.

[TinyMachines]

My fiance and I were discussing it last night. We both lived in terror from our fathers because they were the one's who administered the discipline. We never knew what we would do wrong that would set them to spanking. Mine were all explained as to why I got them, but that didn't stop my constantly living in fear of pain. That memory still sticks with me and it's pretty scary sometimes. I don't think anyone should have that pain forced on them by their own family. It's pretty sinister.

[asimplegirl]

well, he have a total of two rules, so I would say that it is pretty understandable what the reason for a spanking are in our house. It is not the first resort, and it is not done to the extend of crippling a child. The punk knows exactly what he is getting in trouble for before getting spanked, and not by us telling him- he is asked. He sees an issue we can discuss it, and if he did not know he was doing anything wrong he can go on with a warning. As I said four times in 6 years isn't that much.

[ifthenwouldi]

"Other"

It's none of your, or government's, business how I raise my children.

Thank you, patriot.

[TinyMachines]

Mine was once about every couple weeks when I was younger. I knew what I was getting spanked for every time. It was just that about 25% of the time my parents were just wrong and I didn't do what they thought. My parents would also say "Do you know why you're getting a spanking?" I would be forced to answer even if I didn't do it.

[Natalie]

I never got spanked when I was little, but I probably should have. I was so mean to my little brother. I would pull his hair and beat him up all the time.

I am going to spank my kids. Not hard or anything. Just so they know they did something wrong.

[pinkmandy]

Spanking is something used by those who cannot reason with a child or who think a child isn't human enough to be reasoned with. Once the kid learns to talk, a swat should only be necessary if the child has a natural prediliction toward being a psycho.

Of course, some children do have that trait, and their parents shouldn't have their hands tied because other parents are incompetent.

I agree. I have 3 kids and while it's harder to think of a way to deal with them than it is to just hit them it can be done. I find it ironic that freedom lovers who would have a really hard time w/a cop hitting someone who wasn't following the rules are okay with big grown ups hitting little children for the same reason.

Perhaps there may be times/types of behavior that a parent finally comes to the conclusion that a spanking might be warranted. Like deadly force, though, I think it should be a last resort. I wouldn't make it illegal, however. To each his own and it's none of the govt's business how you parent short of abuse though it could be argued that all people have a right to be protected from physical violence of others. Children are people, too. I don't support hitting animals, either.

[Fox McCloud]

I'm ok with it, so long as it isn't to the point of being abusive. Sometimes there just isn't any other way to get a child to understand...yes, sometimes a child does misbehave to get attention, but more often than not it's because they want to do what they want to do; a child needs to learn there are certain boundaries and there are consequences for crossing those boundaries.

that said, sometimes spanking will only go so far, and a parent must engage in other forms of discipline--grounding, taking away of prized possessions, , writing something, being made to do work, etc....it heavily depends on the child and it heavily depends on what the child did, IMHO.

Growing up, I was spanked, and I turned out ok; I'm not overbearing, super-aggressive or mean-spirited...as a matter of fact most people wouldn't guess that I grew up as a first-born only-child, though personality can have just as much to do with disposition as does unruliness.

I agreed with Dr. 3D on this one; if you spare the rod, you spoil the child.

[heavenlyboy34]

I never got spanked when I was little, but I probably should have. I was so mean to my little brother. I would pull his hair and beat him up all the time.

I am going to spank my kids. Not hard or anything. Just so they know they did something wrong.

I'll spank you whenever you want to help make up for the lack of spanking you received! ;) (lol)

[silverlinkx2]

if children are so fundamentally selfish and evil that you have to physically harm them in order to correct their behavior or elicit a desired result, then why are humans as a whole worth any fundamental rights or consideration whatsoever?

[Kludge]

if children are so fundamentally selfish and evil that you have to physically harm them in order to correct their behavior or elicit a desired result, then why are humans as a whole worth any fundamental rights or consideration whatsoever?

Who said they were evil?

[silverlinkx2]

Who said they were evil?

What else would motivate them to behave in a manner so heinous as to warrant physical (and possibly psychological) harm? :rolleyes:

[Kludge]

What else would motivate them to behave in a manner so heinous as to warrant physical (and possibly psychological) harm? :rolleyes:

Ignorance. Once they understood they're mortal and what can hurt them, the desire and respect for rights comes naturally out of selfishness (as they seek to prolong their survival).

[pinkmandy]

Ignorance. Once they understood they're mortal and what can hurt them, the desire and respect for rights comes naturally out of selfishness (as they seek to prolong their survival).


If that were true we would have achieved world peace centuries ago.

A society that justifies beating someone into submission is the same kind of society that justifies beating other countries into submission. At some point we have to evolve beyond this mentality of aggression.

You reap what you sow. :(

[Dr.3D]

if children are so fundamentally selfish and evil that you have to physically harm them in order to correct their behavior or elicit a desired result, then why are humans as a whole worth any fundamental rights or consideration whatsoever?

Since when is a slap on the ass "physical harm"? It causes them no damage whatsoever and helps the understand the results of ignoring the authority their parent should have over them.

[Kludge]

If that were true we would have achieved world peace centuries ago.

After kids learn that much on their own, they're taught by others to be "human" with the aphorisms of idiots. :(

And, of course, the child may be mentally handicapped.

[Fox McCloud]

if children are so fundamentally selfish and evil that you have to physically harm them in order to correct their behavior or elicit a desired result, then why are humans as a whole worth any fundamental rights or consideration whatsoever?

just because people have the capability to make evil choices and decisions (and quite frequently, at that) doesn't necessarily warrant them to be non-deserving of rights....heck, even in an anarcho-capitalist society, you'd still have the initiation of force to punish via private policy, prisons, courts, etc, and that system (as envisioned by those such as Rothbard, Mises, etc.) is the epitome of individual rights.

[pinkmandy]

Since when is a slap on the ass "physical harm"? It causes the suspect no damage whatsoever and helps them understand the results of ignoring the authority their local police should have over them.

Edited. Isn't that kind of the same thing?

Just playing devil's advocate. Interesting conversation.

[angelatc]

if children are so fundamentally selfish and evil that you have to physically harm them in order to correct their behavior or elicit a desired result, then why are humans as a whole worth any fundamental rights or consideration whatsoever?

Children who are spanked grow out of it quickly. Children who aren't spanked remain emotional children forever.

Really, if you don't have children you don't even belong in this conversation. No offense, but it's super easy to raise other people's kids. I know because I used to be childless. Now I am older and wiser.

[pinkmandy]

After kids learn that much on their own, they're taught by others to be "human" with the aphorisms of idiots. :(

And, of course, the child may be mentally handicapped.

Is hitting not teaching as well? If so, what's the lesson?

[pinkmandy]

Children who are spanked grow out of it quickly. Children who aren't spanked remain emotional children forever.

Really, if you don't have children you don't even belong in this conversation. No offense, but it's super easy to raise other people's kids. I know because I used to be childless. Now I am older and wiser.

I call BS. I have 3 kids and they aren't spanked- ages 3-12. They are incredibly polite, smart, and independent children. Their actions aren't dictated by "fear" of what will happen if they don't comply, their actions are a result of the examples my husband and I have set for them.

[Kludge]

Is hitting not teaching as well? If so, what's the lesson?

It is teaching (though a rights violation, IMO), and teaches the child to fear whatever it was that they did, or can be used to emphasize a point, attaching memorable fear to the lesson so it isn't forgotten.

[angelatc]

If that were true we would have achieved world peace centuries ago.

A society that justifies beating someone into submission is the same kind of society that justifies beating other countries into submission. At some point we have to evolve beyond this mentality of aggression.

You reap what you sow. :(

And your kids are going to be undisciplined brats. Sadly, they'll probably end up ruling over mine, who know how to communicate like grown ups.

Hell, we can't reason with Democrats or Republicans? Why on earth do you think it's possible to reason with a 2 year old who is intent on poking her baby sister in the eye?

[angelatc]

I call BS. I have 3 kids and they aren't spanked- ages 3-12. They are incredibly polite, smart, and independent children. Their actions aren't dictated by "fear" of what will happen if they don't comply, their actions are a result of the examples my husband and I have set for them.

Nonsense. Your kids are brats if you don't spank them. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean they aren't.

3 year olds aren't supposed to be independent.

[angelatc]

I agree. I have 3 kids and while it's harder to think of a way to deal with them than it is to just hit them it can be done. I find it ironic that freedom lovers who would have a really hard time w/a cop hitting someone who wasn't following the rules are okay with big grown ups hitting little children for the same reason. .

Children belong to the parents. People do not belong to the state.

[pinkmandy]

And your kids are going to be undisciplined brats. Sadly, they'll probably end up ruling over mine, who know how to communicate like grown ups.

Hell, we can't reason with Democrats or Republicans? Why on earth do you think it's possible to reason with a 2 year old who is intent on poking her baby sister in the eye?

Seriously, F you. You don't know me or my children. I've taken a great deal of time and patience to raise my children well, even foregoing a career to homeschool them. If you lack the mental ability to find a way to discipline your unruly child without hitting him/her then that's sad. You're supposed to be the parent, setting the example.

If hitting is how grown ups communicate then I want no part of that for my kids. Instead they have learned to reason and use more advanced forms of communication than beating someone who won't do what they say. We're aiming for something beyond caveman mentality in our home. :p

[pinkmandy]

Nonsense. Your kids are brats if you don't spank them. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean they aren't.

3 year olds aren't supposed to be independent.

Now I feel sorry for you and your children. So you HAVE to hit them. You have no choice. It's for their own good! Send me your address and I'll send you some parenting books. There are usually classes locally as well.

Everywhere I go w/my kids I get comments on how well behaved they are. They open doors for people, help the elderly, always say please and thank you. And I've never had to hit them to get them to comply. I merely set the example, gave them my expectations and praise them for their good behavior. It's more effective than beating them for bad behavior. Well, the 3 yo is still learning these things but is hardly unruly for her age.

[angelatc]

It is teaching (though a rights violation, IMO), and teaches the child to fear whatever it was that they did, or can be used to emphasize a point, attaching memorable fear to the lesson so it isn't forgotten.

I don't give a rats ass how it works, as long as it does.

My friend had a kid that bit. (Needless to say that isn't something she picked up from her parents.) My freind spent 3 years trying to curb the behavior, and it really only stopped because another kid finally bit her back. (And my friend had the chitzpah to be upset that her kid got bit! Hrumph.)

My kid decided to bite. I swatted him on the butt, stuck him in his room and that was the end of that.

[angelatc]

Now I feel sorry for you and your children. So you HAVE to hit them. You have no choice. It's for their own good! Send me your address and I'll send you some parenting books. There are usually classes locally as well.

Everywhere I go w/my kids I get comments on how well behaved they are. They open doors for people, help the elderly, always say please and thank you. And I've never had to hit them to get them to comply. I merely set the example, gave them my expectations and praise them for their good behavior. It's more effective than beating them for bad behavior. Well, the 3 yo is still learning these things but is hardly unruly for her age.


I didn't HAVE to hit them. I chose to spank them because I had better things to do than negotiate with children.

I don't care about your kids. Or your stupid liberal bullshit books. If you need other "experts" to tell you how to raise your kids, then that simply speaks volumes. My grandmother managed to raise 9 fully functioning adults without reading a single book or attending a single class. It's only this new wave psychobabble crap that you're suggesting that has weakened the family unit and created the parental authority crisis.

My kids are past the age of spanking now.

I am sure your kids are well behaved and absolutely the smartest kids on their block. Every parent of unspanked kids say the same thing.

It's perfection breeding absolute perfection!

[angelatc]

Seriously, F you. You don't know me or my children. I've taken a great deal of time and patience to raise my children well, even foregoing a career to homeschool them. If you lack the mental ability to find a way to discipline your unruly child without hitting him/her then that's sad. You're supposed to be the parent, setting the example.

If hitting is how grown ups communicate then I want no part of that for my kids. Instead they have learned to reason and use more advanced forms of communication than beating someone who won't do what they say. We're aiming for something beyond caveman mentality in our home. :p

Yes, you're a martyr and your kids are alway going to be smarter and better behaved than everybodys. I already knew that, because that's what parents who don't spank say.

Setting the example is only one aspect of being that parent.

[angelatc]

If hitting is how grown ups communicate then I want no part of that for my kids. Instead they have learned to reason and use more advanced forms of communication than beating someone who won't do what they say. We're aiming for something beyond caveman mentality in our home. :p

I know you are, sweetie.

We preferred to stick with the traditional value system that made us and our kids strong. 50 years ago, everybody spanked. Now only about half do, and yet kids are, by all accounts I've read, far more aggressive than they used to be.

[Mini-Me]

dfjsaklfkldsjalkfakfldjkaljfkljk...odd double post. Nixing the first one.

[Mini-Me]

And your kids are going to be undisciplined brats. Sadly, they'll probably end up ruling over mine, who know how to communicate like grown ups.

Hell, we can't reason with Democrats or Republicans? Why on earth do you think it's possible to reason with a 2 year old who is intent on poking her baby sister in the eye?

That top comment about pinkmandy's kids was entirely out of line. It seems as though someone wasn't spanked enough...or perhaps someone should have been raised using other methods so she'd act less...bratty? Rude? Presumptuous? Based on pinkmandy's description, her kids may very well be more well-adjusted and able to communicate like grown-ups than you are yourself.

[Kludge]

I've been thinking about this all wrong. Spanking a child is protection from the alternative. A kid can't realize their mortality unless they challenge it. Hitting a child running to the road is protection from death. I ought to go with my gut instinct more... Hitting a kid and asking something similar to "How would you like it if I did that to you?" teaches them to respect each other.

[angelatc]

That top comment about pinkmandy's kids was entirely out of line. It seems as though someone wasn't spanked enough...or perhaps someone should have been raised using other methods so she'd act less...bratty? Rude? Presumptuous? Based on pinkmandy's description, her kids may very well be more well-adjusted and able to communicate like grown-ups than you are yourself.

They might be. I have no interest in learning the Dale Carnegie methodology. That's why I am not a precinct leader. I don't like most people all that much, and could give a rat's ass about communicating non-confrontation-ally.

I am, however, 45 years old and far past the concept that my Daddy and Mommy must somehow to blame for my peculiarities.

And it doesn't change the fact that kids who aren't spanked are always insufferable brats.

[angelatc]

That top comment about pinkmandy's kids was entirely out of line. It seems as though someone wasn't spanked enough...or perhaps someone should have been raised using other methods so she'd act less...bratty? Rude? Presumptuous? Based on pinkmandy's description, her kids may very well be more well-adjusted and able to communicate like grown-ups than you are yourself.

I am sure that pinkmandy's description is entirely unbiased.

[Mini-Me]

They might be. I have no interest in learning the Dale Carnegie methodology. That's why I am not a precinct leader. I don't like most people all that much, and could give a rat's ass about communicating non-confrontation-ally.
Your previous comment led me to believe that you valued the ability to communicate as grown-ups:

Sadly, they'll probably end up ruling over mine, who know how to communicate like grown ups.



I am, however, 45 years old and far past the concept that my Daddy and Mommy must somehow to blame for my peculiarities.

And it doesn't change the fact that kids who aren't spanked are always insufferable brats.

The fact? Always? Well, that settles it. Your generalities from on high have certainly convinced me of the superior logic behind your methods.

[Mini-Me]

I am sure that pinkmandy's description is entirely unbiased.
Point taken, but she's citing other people's spoken opinions of her kids. It's possible that they're all mistaken, or perhaps she's omitting complaints she's gotten from other adults (which would constitute bias). She could also be lying, I suppose. However, assuming she's not lying, not just every kid is thoughtful enough to open doors for people. Sure, it's not a foolproof litmus test, but it's certainly enough evidence to give the benefit of the doubt until further notice...rather than desperately trying to insist that her kids must really be brats. :rolleyes:

As far as bias goes, you certainly seem to have an irrational bent against unspanked kids and their parents. By acting so adamant that spanking is such an absolute necessity (lest there be mayhem) and closing the door to all debate, it honestly seems to me as though you're trying to drown out the doubts you have about your own method.

[Dr.3D]

(edited by pinkmandy) Since when is a slap on the ass "physical harm"? It causes the suspect no damage whatsoever and helps them understand the results of ignoring the authority their local police should have over them.


Edited. Isn't that kind of the same thing?

Just playing devil's advocate. Interesting conversation.

Well, if police didn't give tickets, would people stop parking illegally? If police didn't give tickets, would people stop speeding? If police didn't give tickets, would people stop running red lights, and stop signs?

If just talking to people would make them stop doing the things they are not supposed to do, police wouldn't be writing tickets.

People generally learn best by having something adverse to what they want happen to them when they do something they shouldn't be doing. If you hit your finger with a hammer, would you avoid doing it again if you felt no pain and your finger was not damaged in the process? The reason you don't hit your finger with a hammer is because it hurts and you want to avoid the pain and damage to your finger. The same holds true when you touch something hot and burn yourself. The results of doing such a thing deters you from doing it again.

If people wait and let their children get away with anything they want, the children usually don't understand there is any penalty for doing something wrong. If this is allowed to go on long enough, even spanking the child will not help. A child will grow past a certain age where anything you do to deter them from doing things that are decremental to themselves or others will have little affect on them.

Discipline must be started as early as possible and continue with consistency for a length of time before a mindset will take place and the child will understand there are penalties for inappropriate behavior.

[Time for Change]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am hesitant to point out the bratty kid to the parents, because it is none of my business, no matter how annoying the little shits are (and how blind the parents happen to be).
If the parent accepts the kid's behavior as "Normal"...well...nothing can be said about the kid to a person who sees absolutely nothing wrong with the way they are acting.

That said, of course there will be only praise from people that see good things, because the people who notice the less than appropriate keep their mouth shut.

[Mini-Me]

Well, if police didn't give tickets, would people stop parking illegally? If police didn't give tickets, would people stop speeding? If police didn't give tickets, would people stop running red lights, and stop signs?

If just talking to people would make them stop doing the things they are not supposed to do, police wouldn't be writing tickets.

Do you really think that if cops did not give tickets for running red lights, you would personally start running them every chance you had? If so, that says a lot more about who you are and what garners your respect in particular (brute force and intimidation) than it does about the general necessity of tickets. Even though I have a low opinion of most people's inner morality, most people are nevertheless perfectly willing to recognize the necessity of playing nice on a personal level. Furthermore, the natural consequences of running red lights are a pretty big deterrent by themselves (because they can include a horrible, fiery death). It seems to me like we have the following kinds of people:
People who can be reasoned with, who will not run red lights simply because they understand how doing so makes it dangerous for themselves and everyone else on the road. (People really do tend to play nice in most situations.)
People who don't really care about that, but who realize the danger of running red lights.
Flaming assholes who will run red lights, come hell or high water
Flaming assholes who would run red lights but don't out of fear for teh cops' AUTHORITAAHHH
Frankly, I think people in the first two categories greatly outnumber those in the last two...and odds are, if you're enough of a flaming asshole to run red lights without sparing a thought for anyone else, you're probably a big enough jerk that you'll do it anyway, despite the risk of punishment. Except in cases where running a red light is against the law but not particularly dangerous (i.e. nobody else is around whatsoever, which mitigates the "flaming asshole" thing), I imagine the last group of people is pretty sparsely populated.

Due to the existence of people who run red lights anyway, it's obvious that punishment and threat of punishment do not work for everyone. Similarly, the existence of people who would NOT run red lights means that punishment and threat of punishment are not necessary for the cooperation of those people.

The situation is a little different for rules like speed limits though. Fear of tickets really does force people to obey speed limits (or make sure they don't exceed them TOO much) more than logical argument or persuasion. However, that's mainly because so many people legitimately disagree with the reasoned argument behind speed limits in the first place, not because they simply cannot be reasoned with as human beings. Logical arguments in favor of speed limits in general are not ironclad, and logical arguments in favor of unfairly low speed limits are about as solid as Swiss cheese. It's no wonder so few people really respect them...they're simply not that respectable.

The bottom line here is: Sometimes you must correct the behavior of someone who cannot be reasoned with, and that's where discipline is necessary. However, persuasion (with genuine moral authority backing it) works perfectly well on almost all people some of the time, and it even works very well on some people almost all of the time.



People generally learn best by having something adverse to what they want happen to them when they do something they shouldn't be doing. If you hit your finger with a hammer, would you avoid doing it again if you felt no pain and your finger was not damaged in the process? The reason you don't hit your finger with a hammer is because it hurts and you want to avoid the pain and damage to your finger. The same holds true when you touch something hot and burn yourself. The results of doing such a thing deters you from doing it again.

If people wait and let their children get away with anything they want, the children usually don't understand there is any penalty for doing something wrong. If this is allowed to go on long enough, even spanking the child will not help. A child will grow past a certain age where anything you do to deter them from doing things that are decremental to themselves or others will have little affect on them.

Discipline must be started as early as possible and continue with consistency for a length of time before a mindset will take place and the child will understand there are penalties for inappropriate behavior.

I can't really find fault with the rest of this. :) Discipline is certainly necessary for raising good kids. When your kids get out of line, discipline gets them under control, and it's important to make sure they feel the just consequences of any transgressions. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that parents should let their kids run wild and turn a blind eye to their brattiness. ;) However, while discipline is necessary to raise truly good kids, it's still not sufficient, because discipline by itself only affects outward behavior, and it's not enough to make your kids moral on the inside (which is really the true goal). In the long run, the difference between good people and functional, well-behaved assholes is moral understanding.

Of course, when I say that discipline is necessary, I'm not referring to spankings in particular. I can see situations where they make sense, but I think there are better alternatives for most occasions.

[Roxi]

I have never spanked my daughter because.... 1. I respect her, 2. Hitting is wrong, no matter who you are hitting, you wouldn't hit your spouse for doing something wrong would you? 3. It infringes on her personal space. 3. I don't want to teach her that hitting is the way to get people to behave correctly.

however, i have no right to tell anyone else how to parent their child.

[Fox McCloud]

Do you really think that if cops did not give tickets for running red lights, you would personally start running them every chance you had? If so, that says a lot more about who you are and what garners your respect in particular (brute force and intimidation) than it does about the general necessity of tickets. Even though I have a low opinion of most people's inner morality, most people are nevertheless perfectly willing to recognize the necessity of playing nice on a personal level....[and so on].


Clearly you have never been to Cincinnati ;)

[Dr.3D]

Do you really think that if cops did not give tickets for running red lights, you would personally start running them every chance you had?

Well, actually, in the middle of the night, when there is hardly any traffic and the light is red, I will sometimes stop and look both ways and then proceed before waiting for the light to change. I'm sure if there was no consequences for doing this in the middle of the daytime, people would be doing it a lot. The traffic light has no authority to tell me to stop and wait till it turns green. It is just a stupid automated device we have been told to obey. So yes, I am one of those ass holes who would run the occasional red light.

You seem to misunderstand the point of what I was saying about police authority and breaking the law. I did not imply it was okay to break the law as long as you don't get caught. What I am saying here is there are some laws that are not just in the first place and a bit if civil disobedience can be expected no matter how well one is disciplined.

Let's just look at it this way. If a police officer were to be standing on the corner with a whistle and he blew it whenever a car went through a red light, how much effect would it have on the behavior of the drivers who were running the lights? But if instead of just blowing a whistle, the officer writes tickets, people have a tendency to pay much more attention to red lights. This is why the police have the authority to write tickets rather than just pulling someone over and trying to reason with them. The results have been found to be much better if there is some kind of loss to the law breaker rather than just a good "time out".

I wouldn't expect anybody who has grown up with out discipline in the past 30 years to understand this concept as the idea of dicipline has pretty much been lost to this generation. This is obvious as we watch the decline of morality in our society that has been happening since dicipline was first taken out of the school system and then out of the home.

[Working Poor]

I believe in discipline. I just don't believe children have to be hit in order for them to learn to discipline their selves.

It really disturbs me that people think of their children as bad before they have even developed past the age of 3 or 4.

I try to obey the laws not because of the threat of punishment but because it sets a good example for my children and I want my life to be as free as it can be and there is freedom in living with in the law.

[Dr.3D]

It really disturbs me that people think of their children as bad before they have even developed past the age of 3 or 4.


I really doubt people believe their children to be bad, but rather uneducated and inexperienced.
It has been proven time and again, the nerves in the butt are very well connected to the memory processes in the brain.

Before the age of say perhaps 5, a child doesn't really function very well when it comes to logic. I have found when trying to use logic with a child of 4 years age, it is much like trying to teach a monkey to use a typewriter. Just try to discuss the concept of age with a child of 4 and you will find they don't understand it at all. They will often say they are older than you are.

[asimplegirl]

It really disturbs me that people think of their children as bad before they have even developed past the age of 3 or 4.


Wasn't it YOU that said a child should be hit ON TOP OF A DIAPER? Sorry, but, I see no reason a child in a diaper should be hit... that was YOUR statement -not mine. Children in diapers usually cannot even talk yet.

As I have said time and again, I will try to do all I can without spanking, but when it comes down to the wire and warnings and reasoning does not work, a case of the red ass ALWAYS does the trick with him. And, as I said, we have no problem with the punk having a say in whether or not his punishment is fair, or if he even deserves his punishment. Again, four times in 6 years is not much...it only has to happen when he forgets that we are serious when we say the rules are important. I have also been told that he was an awesome polite kids, how do I get him to sit quietly, and da da da, but I have also left a buggy in the store full of groceries, went to the car, spanked his ass and went back in for acting like a damned buffoon. It works both ways.

I have seen those parents that think their children act perfect, and you can't tell them anything. Maybe they really don't get bothered as easily as the general public, or maybe polite people compliment what is good about that person's kids when they are actually annoying them, or just keep their mouths shut, so they only hear what is good about their children. I usually keep my mouth shut, but after this conversation, I may bring it upon myself to say something so that that parent doesn't think they have perfect kids who can do no wrong.

My aunt and uncle have 9 children. They do not spank. I always heard how they had perfect polite children, and how well behaved they were. Well, when visiting with their family as a child, we went out to eat. My and my "spanked" brother went inside in our fancy clothes, sat and ate and only talked after saying excuse me...my mom had already warned us, she brought the wooden spoon and she would bring us to the bathroom if we embarrassed her.

My cousins went into the building and opened the door for my grandparents. Oh, how polite. The ordered their food, and said yes ma'am and no ma'am. Oh how well mannered. They sat nice and still. Oh how well behaved. Then, the part their parents don't seem to remember, but was even bad to me- as a 6 year old... They crawled under the table, they talked over the adults, they would interrupt their parents by repeating their name over and over until they were answered. The whined, they cried, the bickered, they were loud and rowdy, yet according to their parents they were just being kids. Sorry, but no.

I can remember me, 6, and my little brother, who is 14 months younger than me, having a conversation with my mom and dad on the way home about how "ooooo, they are going to get a big whippin' when they get hoooome", and "why didn't their mommy get on to them?", and things of the like. When told that they didn't have spankings, I will never forget my five year old brother's response- "well, they need 'em, huh, momma?"

We never opened the doors for people, we stayed right beside our parents. WE never said anything to people, like yes ma'am and no ma'am, unless we were asked a question, because we never spoke to adults. You know what we DID do? We did listen to everything told to us, have never, ever, broken a rule, even away from my parents, because we just KNEW we'd get it if something happened and they found out, and people always wanted us at their house.

You can do as YOU wish, but do not judge just because you DON'T spank. For all you know, you just may have a higher tolerance to kids being little brats..and people will not always tell you the truth- you should know that as an adult. I have seen polite kids come from all different backgrounds, and I have seen misbehaving kids come from all different backgrounds...remember it also has to do with how well you reinforce your discipline, and how good of a person you are also.

The punk is a good kid. He listens most of the time... doesn't get many spankings, but he is a kid, and he is bad sometimes, and can be a brat, and sometimes I can want to strangle him- I will not pretend he is perfect. I can say he is ACTING bad, because he knows that he will always be judged by his behavior, and that it defines what people see about him. If he grows up to be a murderer, will you not define him as bad? Will you not judge him by his behavior? Or will you again say it was just a cry for attention? Some kids don't NEED spankings, this is true, and yours may be some of those. But, there some kids who have an iron will, and a a big 'ole rebellious streak, and need to taught somehow- and logic and reason don't always work....not with adults, especially not with kids.

As long as your child gets some positive reinforcement with the negative reinforcement, they should turn out just fine. Just don't assume your kids are perfect, whether or not you spank them. Dh spanks mine, and that'll probably never stop unless I have a child that reasoning works with. It seems effective.... they act like me and their dad, and we know that it is needed. :)

You can look at our parenting and say what you wish, but remember:

All of us with children, will never see our kids as the little terrors they are...they will always be perfect to us, and we always assume what we are doing is right. If you learn anything, please learn that just like everything else in life, your way is not the only way, and your way does not always work.

[Dr.3D]

For those who believe they have an obedient child, there is a test.

Take them into an expensive china/gift shop and stay for around half an hour. If you are able to later leave the china shop without having to pay a bill for broken items, then perhaps you have an obedient child.

[Working Poor]

I said a thump on the rump not hit at the top of their diaper. I said where the diaper has the most padding.

I forget to mention that my all children all talked, crawled , and walked very early and all were out of diapers before age of 2. After age two I no longer thumped the rump, but talked with them I changed their minds about being a bull in a china shop. In fact when my children were small I owed an antique shop and their were many small, delicate and breakable items there. They were with me all the time there. I let them hold the different pieces and we talked about each piece. I broke a few pieces and so did they. What's the big deal? I did not terrorize my children when they broke things they did not break many things at any rate. My child is much more valuable than an object. The more valuable pieces I kept in cases but, they were allowed to look at them and touch them with my supervision.

I feel that by the time my children were 4 years old that their personalities were fully developed. I never treated my youngest infant like they did not understand or were unaware of their surroundings.

I can't believe that parents aren't aware enough to know that children are fully functional and very aware and able to know what is going on and nothing is hidden from them.

[asimplegirl]

firstly, i never said TOP of the diaper, i said ON TOP, which means ON.. geeze...

secondly, who ever said spanking was hitting as hard as you can?


I can't believe that parents aren't aware enough to know that children are fully functional and very aware and able to know what is going on and nothing is hidden from them.

no, that is why we believe in spanking.. they are learning, and who they are...we should teach them THE BEST WAY THAT AFFECTS THEM to not do bad things..no one said breaking something was a bad thing... I think you have issues, especially judging by not only this thread, but your santa one. You really seem to have no respect for how other people do things, and tend to tell them just that, while sitting up high there judging and bragging. NO one is right in every situation. What is right in your family is not right in mine...I am not a child abuser, nor am I a person who does not love and respect my child and know who they are because they get spanked. I never said that because my child got spanked that they didn't mean as much as your do to you. I also never said I hid things form my child, either...in fact, no one here did.

If everyone could just judge and tell others how to parents, I would have plenty of things I would stop you from doing... I mean form the way you act in this thread alone tells me you may be teaching your children that they know better than all others, and are equals to adults, so they do not have to respect their rules and regulations..I could also say that it would appear you teach your children that people that are any different from them are lower than them somehow......

See how that works? Judging someone's parenting because it is different from your own, and acting like you are THE authority on what it means does not make you out to be a very accepting person of differences, and makes you seem very disrespectful to other parents. I hope that is not your moral high ground...if it is, pin a rose to your nose, mister.

[Anti Federalist]

For those who believe they have an obedient child, there is a test.

Take them into an expensive china/gift shop and stay for around half an hour. If you are able to later leave the china shop without having to pay a bill for broken items, then perhaps you have an obedient child.

Test passed.

[asimplegirl]

also... test passed here... never have seen ANYTHING broken by the punk, unless it was toy that was played hard with. :)


OH, yeah, and he wasn't threatened against it, either. :P

[Mini-Me]

Clearly you have never been to Cincinnati ;)

No, that's why I remembered to put in the third category, "Flaming assholes who will run red lights, come hell or high water." ;)

[lucius]

My sons wanted spankings. Every time I said "if you do that, I will spank you", they did it and then I spanked them. Always hurt me more than them. But they inherited the hard headedness and it has served them well (as it did me) in their adult lives.

Well put.

Some of this thread is reflective of the next generation of 'new age' docile social engineering. Gatto has good insight into this. (If so inclined, others may read the whole book online of 'The Underground History of American Education' here: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm )

I do not think that my children's world will be as kind as mine. So, I am introducing my children to real policy agenda, which when around strangers they can regurgitate party-lines befitting any mindless obamabot--look to the noble chameleon. They know the difference.

I hope my children will be a tad-bit more feral. Psychopaths do run the world. Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Babiak/Hare, you bet they're on the homeschooling curriculum.

ps: I don't vote in these polls.

[Fox McCloud]

No, that's why I remembered to put in the third category, "Flaming assholes who will run red lights, come hell or high water." ;)

then most of Cincy must be "flaming a-holes", because most everyone does that in Cincy....IMHO Cincy is very helpful evidence to Dr. 3D's case...with no consequences for one's actions, that action will be done no matter what.

[pinkmandy]

No one is saying there shouldn't be consequences. There should always be discipline and consequences, it's part of parenting. That can be achieved without spanking.

I was spanked as a child. I didn't care. I knew if I did something I shouldn't do that was particularly naughty, then I'd get a spanking. I'd weigh that out as a child and often opt for the smack on the behind if I what I wanted to do was more important to me than a few seconds of a smarting behind. IF I got caught at all. I was perfectly able to reason but that isn't the method my parents always chose. A reasoned discussion would have had way more impact on my actions as that teaches long term. A spanking? A few minutes and it's over. That might work for children who don't reason, I don't know. It was completely ineffective for me. The lessons I learned were not from being spanked, they were from the real repercussions of my actions.

I haven't met many children who can't reason. It's an important ability we should be utilizing and encouraging- especially when subjects of right vs. wrong come up. When a child misbehaves it's an opportunity for parents to instill critical thinking skills. Look at our society and tell me honestly that we have a country full of rational people with the ability to think critically, reason, and make sound decisions. Change, change, change ring a bell? They hate us for our freedoms? Take away our freedoms to protect our freedoms?

We need THINKERS, like Dr. Paul. We need to look at what Dr. Paul promotes, who he is, what he stands for and realize that starts at home. We can't have a non-aggressive country who stands for individual rights when we don't model that behavior for our children. Does our govt model how our children are raised (public school included)? Isn't it really a reflection of the people themselves?

Of course, I probably have my own interpretation of that as do others and I can respect that. I don't think if you spank you are ruining your children for life by any means but I think it's HIGHLY ignorant to suggest that all children who aren't spanked are brats and sad that people who spout such idiotic generalizations and believe them must rely so heavily on spanking without understanding there are many ways to discipline a child.

[Mini-Me]

Well, actually, in the middle of the night, when there is hardly any traffic and the light is red, I will sometimes stop and look both ways and then proceed before waiting for the light to change. I'm sure if there was no consequences for doing this in the middle of the daytime, people would be doing it a lot. The traffic light has no authority to tell me to stop and wait till it turns green. It is just a stupid automated device we have been told to obey. So yes, I am one of those ass holes who would run the occasional red light.
Actually, I accounted for you:

Except in cases where running a red light is against the law but not particularly dangerous (i.e. nobody else is around whatsoever, which mitigates the "flaming asshole" thing), I imagine the last group of people is pretty sparsely populated.
;) In those kind of cases, that falls into the category of rules with questionable moral authority behind them, which is precisely why it's so much easier for you to rationalize running the light under those circumstances.



You seem to misunderstand the point of what I was saying about police authority and breaking the law. I did not imply it was okay to break the law as long as you don't get caught. What I am saying here is there are some laws that are not just in the first place and a bit if civil disobedience can be expected no matter how well one is disciplined.

Let's just look at it this way. If a police officer were to be standing on the corner with a whistle and he blew it whenever a car went through a red light, how much effect would it have on the behavior of the drivers who were running the lights? But if instead of just blowing a whistle, the officer writes tickets, people have a tendency to pay much more attention to red lights. This is why the police have the authority to write tickets rather than just pulling someone over and trying to reason with them. The results have been found to be much better if there is some kind of loss to the law breaker rather than just a good "time out".

I wouldn't expect anybody who has grown up with out discipline in the past 30 years to understand this concept as the idea of dicipline has pretty much been lost to this generation. This is obvious as we watch the decline of morality in our society that has been happening since dicipline was first taken out of the school system and then out of the home.

You said, "What I am saying here is there are some laws that are not just in the first place and a bit if civil disobedience can be expected no matter how well one is disciplined." This is exactly my point: When it comes to most people, discipline in the case of traffic violations is usually only "necessary" because they rules themselves are often weakly justified and unnecessary. However, most people tend to be much more obedient to rules that are strongly justified, because they agree with and internalize the justification behind them. It's still necessary to discipline the "flaming assholes" who violate good rules anyway, because at least discipline provides a deterrent and a sense that there are consequences to actions...but basically, my main point is that just laws with punitive consequences for violating them are there for the "bad" people, because the "good" people wouldn't break them in the first place. Similarly, discipline is only necessary to correct the behavior of "bad" kids who do not yet have morals, because the good kids will behave even without the threat of punishment.

What happens is this: If you rely only on discipline and fear of consequences when raising your kids, your kids' morality will never develop past fear of consequences (which is the morality of the lowest common denominator). If the threat of consequences goes away someday or they think they can get away with it, they'll act as amoral as they please. Because of that, discipline by itself is only a stop-gap to relieve symptoms of amorality, not a cure for amorality. Discipline by itself only creates functional and outwardly well-behaved people, not good people.

To address the following point:

The results have been found to be much better if there is some kind of loss to the law breaker rather than just a good "time out".
You say this as if physical pain is the only possible kind of discipline, and as if physical pain is the only thing that will make a child feel like they felt some kind of loss after a transgression. If this is really what you mean by this, it's an arbitrary and unimaginative assessment. You could hit your kids' hands with a hammer or cut off a finger joint every time they did something wrong, and it would certainly get the point across and modify their behavior, but even aside from the fact that it won't make them any more moral deep down (and would probably teach them the wrong lessons about violence)...would such over-the-top and violent punishments be strictly necessary? Obviously they aren't, and I think everyone will agree. Spanking is much different in terms of degree, but the point is that a slap on the butt also might send the wrong lesson about violence (and how to gain compliance from those you have power over), and it's also not usually strictly necessary. Even controlled physical violence can be an unnecessary display of "shock and awe." There are plenty of punishments that would make your kid feel loss. What do they love to do...play basketball? Play video games? Make them go a day, a week, etc. without the privilege of doing what they enjoy, and they'll certainly feel "loss" for a transgression. As another example, a time-out can similarly instill a sense of loss, because ten minutes staring at the wall in boredom is a freaking eternity to a three-year-old. Sure, it may not be an appropriate punishment for something as serious as hitting, biting, etc., but it can be quite enough for a three-year-old that talks back disrespectfully, etc.

Finally, I want to address your closing point:


I wouldn't expect anybody who has grown up with out discipline in the past 30 years to understand this concept as the idea of dicipline has pretty much been lost to this generation.
I'm sorry, but this is just blowing a bunch of hot air. Pretty much every generation has thought poorly of the "unruly" subsequent generation, as if they have no discipline or values, and as if the world is going to hell solely because the "entirety" of the new generation is just so rotten. This same exact moral panic theme regarding youth has played out over and over throughout human history. :rolleyes: Sure, there are a lot of spoiled, selfish, bratty kids who grow up to be spoiled, selfish, bratty adults today, but that's not because there "aren't enough spankings" in particular, and these people certainly don't comprise the entirety of people who grew up without being spanked. The main reason these bratty kids and immature adults exist is because their parents were dreadful, self-absorbed people who didn't spend the time or effort that it takes to raise good kids. The bad parents are not the ones who substituted groundings for spankings - they're the parents who let their children get away entirely with bratty behavior because they didn't want to bother dealing with it or because they couldn't bear to acknowledge that their kids weren't perfect. They're the parents who showered their kids with money and material belongings as a substitute for time and love. They're the parents who didn't spend any time raising their kids whatsoever, who pushed the job of raising their kids off onto babysitters or television. There are certainly a lot of spoiled and bratty kids today, and the parents I mentioned above are the primary cause, not the fact that many involved parents have moved on from spankings to more civilized methods (and let's be honest - the "old school" way of raising kids involved a whole lot more violence than mere butt-spankings, yet it used to pass as entirely normal).

So yes, there are a lot of rotten kids who grow up to be rotten people, but the pro-spanking crowd is misdiagnosing the cause. What's usually left forgotten is that the cherished old school methods of raising kids didn't exactly produce sweet little angels, either. The flat-out abuse that used to pass for the good Lord's discipline in the "good old days" may not have produced the MTV "My Super Sweet Sixteen" generation, but based on what I've seen, it seems as though it produced more than one generation with an overabundance of outwardly normal and polite narcissists and sociopaths. These people behave in a perfectly "respectable" way in society, but they treat their spouses, etc. like utter shit, and their interpersonal relationships revolve around dominance and dynamics of power and control. The occasional butt-spanking is probably unlikely to create "monsters" like this, but I still think some caution is warranted, and it's best to avoid even minimal and controlled physical violence unless strictly necessary.

[Mini-Me]

then most of Cincy must be "flaming a-holes", because most everyone does that in Cincy....IMHO Cincy is very helpful evidence to Dr. 3D's case...with no consequences for one's actions, that action will be done no matter what.

...and when there are consequences, as there are in Cincy, the action will often still be done by those same people. ;) Why is this? It's because a lot of the time, these people still think they can get away with it, so they do it anyway. Discipline is nothing more than behavioral conditioning, and it works to modify the bad behavior of people when the ruling authority is present or thought to be present, but it's only a stop-gap, because it does not cure the underlying assholishness.

[Mini-Me]

I really doubt people believe their children to be bad, but rather uneducated and inexperienced.
It has been proven time and again, the nerves in the butt are very well connected to the memory processes in the brain.

Before the age of say perhaps 5, a child doesn't really function very well when it comes to logic. I have found when trying to use logic with a child of 4 years age, it is much like trying to teach a monkey to use a typewriter. Just try to discuss the concept of age with a child of 4 and you will find they don't understand it at all. They will often say they are older than you are.

Can the butt remember sitting on a chair for an annoyingly long time? ;)

[moostraks]

then most of Cincy must be "flaming a-holes", because most everyone does that in Cincy....IMHO Cincy is very helpful evidence to Dr. 3D's case...with no consequences for one's actions, that action will be done no matter what.

HAha!!! This must be an Ohio thing. I have lived in Florida, Georgia,New York, and Alabama and nobody runs them like they do in Ohio. :p

[Mini-Me]

Wasn't it YOU that said a child should be hit ON TOP OF A DIAPER? Sorry, but, I see no reason a child in a diaper should be hit... that was YOUR statement -not mine. Children in diapers usually cannot even talk yet.

As I have said time and again, I will try to do all I can without spanking, but when it comes down to the wire and warnings and reasoning does not work, a case of the red ass ALWAYS does the trick with him. And, as I said, we have no problem with the punk having a say in whether or not his punishment is fair, or if he even deserves his punishment. Again, four times in 6 years is not much...it only has to happen when he forgets that we are serious when we say the rules are important. I have also been told that he was an awesome polite kids, how do I get him to sit quietly, and da da da, but I have also left a buggy in the store full of groceries, went to the car, spanked his ass and went back in for acting like a damned buffoon. It works both ways.

I have seen those parents that think their children act perfect, and you can't tell them anything. Maybe they really don't get bothered as easily as the general public, or maybe polite people compliment what is good about that person's kids when they are actually annoying them, or just keep their mouths shut, so they only hear what is good about their children. I usually keep my mouth shut, but after this conversation, I may bring it upon myself to say something so that that parent doesn't think they have perfect kids who can do no wrong.

My aunt and uncle have 9 children. They do not spank. I always heard how they had perfect polite children, and how well behaved they were. Well, when visiting with their family as a child, we went out to eat. My and my "spanked" brother went inside in our fancy clothes, sat and ate and only talked after saying excuse me...my mom had already warned us, she brought the wooden spoon and she would bring us to the bathroom if we embarrassed her.

My cousins went into the building and opened the door for my grandparents. Oh, how polite. The ordered their food, and said yes ma'am and no ma'am. Oh how well mannered. They sat nice and still. Oh how well behaved. Then, the part their parents don't seem to remember, but was even bad to me- as a 6 year old... They crawled under the table, they talked over the adults, they would interrupt their parents by repeating their name over and over until they were answered. The whined, they cried, the bickered, they were loud and rowdy, yet according to their parents they were just being kids. Sorry, but no.

I can remember me, 6, and my little brother, who is 14 months younger than me, having a conversation with my mom and dad on the way home about how "ooooo, they are going to get a big whippin' when they get hoooome", and "why didn't their mommy get on to them?", and things of the like. When told that they didn't have spankings, I will never forget my five year old brother's response- "well, they need 'em, huh, momma?"

We never opened the doors for people, we stayed right beside our parents. WE never said anything to people, like yes ma'am and no ma'am, unless we were asked a question, because we never spoke to adults. You know what we DID do? We did listen to everything told to us, have never, ever, broken a rule, even away from my parents, because we just KNEW we'd get it if something happened and they found out, and people always wanted us at their house.

You can do as YOU wish, but do not judge just because you DON'T spank. For all you know, you just may have a higher tolerance to kids being little brats..and people will not always tell you the truth- you should know that as an adult. I have seen polite kids come from all different backgrounds, and I have seen misbehaving kids come from all different backgrounds...remember it also has to do with how well you reinforce your discipline, and how good of a person you are also.

The punk is a good kid. He listens most of the time... doesn't get many spankings, but he is a kid, and he is bad sometimes, and can be a brat, and sometimes I can want to strangle him- I will not pretend he is perfect. I can say he is ACTING bad, because he knows that he will always be judged by his behavior, and that it defines what people see about him. If he grows up to be a murderer, will you not define him as bad? Will you not judge him by his behavior? Or will you again say it was just a cry for attention? Some kids don't NEED spankings, this is true, and yours may be some of those. But, there some kids who have an iron will, and a a big 'ole rebellious streak, and need to taught somehow- and logic and reason don't always work....not with adults, especially not with kids.

As long as your child gets some positive reinforcement with the negative reinforcement, they should turn out just fine. Just don't assume your kids are perfect, whether or not you spank them. Dh spanks mine, and that'll probably never stop unless I have a child that reasoning works with. It seems effective.... they act like me and their dad, and we know that it is needed. :)

You can look at our parenting and say what you wish, but remember:

All of us with children, will never see our kids as the little terrors they are...they will always be perfect to us, and we always assume what we are doing is right. If you learn anything, please learn that just like everything else in life, your way is not the only way, and your way does not always work.

I like your story, but if you're using it to make the case for spanking in particular, I think you're missing part of the bigger picture: Those kids in the restaurant were not bratty because they weren't spanked. They were bratty because their parents completely tolerated the bratty behavior, as if there was nothing wrong with it. Their parents could have used your advice not to think their kids are perfect...they were definitely in need of discipline that night, and their parents honestly should have nipped it in the bud much earlier than that night...but did they need to use spankings in particular? Not necessarily. I've seen lots of kids who act like that, and the common thread is that their parents simply shrug it off and let it pass, and they don't address the behavior with any level of seriousness.

I like how you mentioned that some kids have an iron will and a rebellious streak and might need spankings, too...but coming from my own experience of having been one of those kids: When your kids do show an iron will, it's worthwhile to assess whether they might actually be in the right in the first place. If they are in fact on the right side of the confrontation, it would be wrong to force them into submission simply because you're bigger than they are and you can. It's probably very unlikely for a six-year-old to be in the right, but...as kids grow up, it might become more common.

Now, the "Do not speak unless you are spoken to" and "Children are meant to be seen, not heard" rules, on the other hand...I've always considered those ones to be pretty fascist, because they're predicated on the assumption that children not only have nothing worthwhile or interesting to say, but that they're literally less important than adults and unworthy of interaction. :rolleyes: In general, adults who have that particular rule are selfishly using their authority as parents to subjugate their kids, just because it suits them. "Might makes right," I guess. If the point is just to keep kids from being boisterous, a better rule might be, "Do not be loud and inconsiderate, do not whine, etc.."

[Working Poor]

to not do bad things..no one said breaking something was a bad thing... I think you have issues, especially judging by not only this thread, but your santa one. You really seem to have no respect for how other people do things, and tend to tell them just that, while sitting up high there judging and bragging. NO one is right in every situation. What is right in your family is not right in mine...I am not a child abuser, nor am I a person who does not love and respect my child and know who they are because they get spanked. I never said that because my child got spanked that they didn't mean as much as your do to you. I also never said I hid things form my child, either...in fact, no one here did.

My gosh I believe you defend where none is needed....

I am merely sharing my child rearing experiences I am not judging you. You raise your children the way you want to.

Some people believe spanking is necessary I do not. Some people call somethings bad in a child that I do not.

My children are very well behaved, GOD fearing, respectful, level headed, compassionate, individuals.

While you may believe children are unaware I have never thought that of my children or anyone else's for that matter. I don't believe I could have hidden anything from them if I wanted to. They called me out on my stuff too and we laughed my issues away.

I did get whipped fort not believing in Santa Claus and not wanting anything and my mom believed I was trying to make her crazy. My mom was very violent but that is the way she was raised. Later in life she apologized to me. She is my mom and I do love her. You know what I am glad too that I was raised the way I was raised because as hard headed as I am I may have pushed against being treated gently. I don't know...

I decided I would try a much different approach. I wanted my children to make their own choices about things and suffer the consequences or reap the rewards. I wanted them to know the truth and not be afraid to tell me when they were in trouble. All my kids knew they would be in serious trouble with me if they lied and I found out about it.

They made mistakes and so did I and I am sure I will again and they will too. At my house we all own what we do and don't blame someone else.

I have seen somethings that have shaped my views. I do swim against the tide of what society thinks I am a rebel in every since of the word. I got kicked out of Sunday school when I was 3 for confessing that I procrastinated. I still do:P Nothing would really surprise me.....

[Mini-Me]

For those who believe they have an obedient child, there is a test.

Take them into an expensive china/gift shop and stay for around half an hour. If you are able to later leave the china shop without having to pay a bill for broken items, then perhaps you have an obedient child.

:D This is a good test...but just be careful to make sure that you don't fail it yourself. My dad did. :D

[pinkmandy]

I decided I would try a much different approach. I wanted my children to make their own choices about things and suffer the consequences or reap the rewards. I wanted them to know the truth and not be afraid to tell me when they were in trouble. All my kids knew they would be in serious trouble with me if they lied and I found out about it.

They made mistakes and so did I and I am sure I will again and they will too. At my house we all own what we do and don't blame someone else.

I have seen somethings that have shaped my views. I do swim against the tide of what society thinks I am a rebel in every since of the word. I got kicked out of Sunday school when I was 3 for confessing that I procrastinated. I still do:P Nothing would really surprise me.....

Ditto that. I was six when I was kicked out of Sunday School, though. I was asking questions that apparently shouldn't have been asked. :D

[asimplegirl]

I like your story, but if you're using it to make the case for spanking in particular, I think you're missing part of the bigger picture: Those kids in the restaurant were not bratty because they weren't spanked. They were bratty because their parents completely tolerated the bratty behavior, as if there was nothing wrong with it. Their parents could have used your advice not to think their kids are perfect...they were definitely in need of discipline that night, and their parents honestly should have nipped it in the bud much earlier than that night...but did they need to use spankings in particular? Not necessarily. I've seen lots of kids who act like that, and the common thread is that their parents simply shrug it off and let it pass, and they don't address the behavior with any level of seriousness.

I like how you mentioned that some kids have an iron will and a rebellious streak and might need spankings, too...but coming from my own experience of having been one of those kids: When your kids do show an iron will, it's worthwhile to assess whether they might actually be in the right in the first place. If they are in fact on the right side of the confrontation, it would be wrong to force them into submission simply because you're bigger than they are and you can. It's probably very unlikely for a six-year-old to be in the right, but...as kids grow up, it might become more common.

Now, the "Do not speak unless you are spoken to" and "Children are meant to be seen, not heard" rules, on the other hand...I've always considered those ones to be pretty fascist, because they're predicated on the assumption that children not only have nothing worthwhile or interesting to say, but that they're literally less important than adults and unworthy of interaction. :rolleyes: In general, adults who have that particular rule are selfishly using their authority as parents to subjugate their kids, just because it suits them. "Might makes right," I guess. If the point is just to keep kids from being boisterous, a better rule might be, "Do not be loud and inconsiderate, do not whine, etc.."


I will say that agree with all that you said- I do. I agree that there are other ways of disciplining... and I never made an argument FOR spanking, but DID make an argument that people come from all ways of life, and can still turn out good kids. I also was trying to point out that some of us don't notice things that others do...and that people just DO NOT see their own kids as wrong alot of the time- that was it.

I didn't like the only speak when spoken to thing, either, that was only to point out that though those things were said about my cousins, who were not spanked, they were also said about us, who were...it was merely a matter of commentator's opinion.

I also agree about maybe hearing them out when they have an "iron will", and have said that I allow the punk to defend himself, or I should say dh does. He can explain exactly what he sees wrong with the situation, he can tell us why if he disagrees, or he can just explain if things didn't happen as we thought... we have no qualms about that, but if we still see what he did as wrong, he WILL get punished for it... and as for those kids that cannot be reasoned with, we have got one... I could give you examples.... he is mature enough for many things, but he is not mature enough to reason, we have tried. When there are things to say, though, he can say them and HOW he wishes, we want to know EXACTLY how he feels. We never want to guess, and we have a big open door policy. He actually has a rule that if he does something he knows we will not agree with, if he sits with us beforehand, and tells us, and explains his actions, he usually will just get talked to a bit, and we will discuss it. I believe moderation is the key pretty much everything.. I will not only spank, but I also will not only reason.

The thing is, I just wanted to point out that judging what people do that are different than you...that is also a view point we pass onto our children.

[asimplegirl]

While you may believe children are unaware I have never thought that of my children or anyone else's for that matter. I don't believe I could have hidden anything from them if I wanted to. They called me out on my stuff too and we laughed my issues away.

I did get whipped fort not believing in Santa Claus and not wanting anything and my mom believed I was trying to make her crazy. My mom was very violent but that is the way she was raised. Later in life she apologized to me. She is my mom and I do love her. You know what I am glad too that I was raised the way I was raised because as hard headed as I am I may have pushed against being treated gently. I don't know...

I decided I would try a much different approach. I wanted my children to make their own choices about things and suffer the consequences or reap the rewards. I wanted them to know the truth and not be afraid to tell me when they were in trouble. All my kids knew they would be in serious trouble with me if they lied and I found out about it.

They made mistakes and so did I and I am sure I will again and they will too. At my house we all own what we do and don't blame someone else.




I actually stated that I do not think children are unaware... and I do not believe in hiding ANYTHING from them. I do not hide anything and neither does dh.. he actually probably knows more than he should because of this.

I agree that your parents did wrong with what they spanked you for.. but that is not the issue..we aren't speaking of spanking for nothing..we are talking about spanking when needed...not for having an opinion.

As I said before, other than this, we agree...

I also think some people over-use spankings.
I also think that we should try and reason when we can.
I also believe that sometimes children can be lead without any physical "punishment".
I also believe that there should be an open door to discuss things, and that parents should not be untouchable.


And, whether you believe it or not, I too, parent the way I do so that I am not like my parents.

[Working Poor]

so why are you so on the defensive? ((((asimplegirl)))))...


I am no doubt much older than you all of my kids are grown. I like to discuss things. I feel I have put off communicating with others for a very long time.

I don't think you have to agree with me or be defensive.
Discussing things on line is different than being face to face. We can't see one another's expression or body language so we must learn to take everything with a grain of salt.

[Mini-Me]

I will say that agree with all that you said- I do. I agree that there are other ways of disciplining... and I never made an argument FOR spanking, but DID make an argument that people come from all ways of life, and can still turn out good kids. I also was trying to point out that some of us don't notice things that others do...and that people just DO NOT see their own kids as wrong alot of the time- that was it.

I didn't like the only speak when spoken to thing, either, that was only to point out that though those things were said about my cousins, who were not spanked, they were also said about us, who were...it was merely a matter of commentator's opinion.

I also agree about maybe hearing them out when they have an "iron will", and have said that I allow the punk to defend himself, or I should say dh does. He can explain exactly what he sees wrong with the situation, he can tell us why if he disagrees, or he can just explain if things didn't happen as we thought... we have no qualms about that, but if we still see what he did as wrong, he WILL get punished for it... and as for those kids that cannot be reasoned with, we have got one... I could give you examples.... he is mature enough for many things, but he is not mature enough to reason, we have tried. When there are things to say, though, he can say them and HOW he wishes, we want to know EXACTLY how he feels. We never want to guess, and we have a big open door policy. He actually has a rule that if he does something he knows we will not agree with, if he sits with us beforehand, and tells us, and explains his actions, he usually will just get talked to a bit, and we will discuss it. I believe moderation is the key pretty much everything.. I will not only spank, but I also will not only reason.

The thing is, I just wanted to point out that judging what people do that are different than you...that is also a view point we pass onto our children.

Don't worry, I wasn't criticizing you (even if it sounded like it). I just wanted to share my thoughts on what you said. :)

[asimplegirl]

oh, I don't think anyone has criticized me, or that I am being defensive...

I just simply feel strongly about this... and from your posts, Working Poor, it did feel for awhile that you were being very judgmental and felt as if those that spanked their children were somehow disdain to you.... I never once felt mad or like I had to defend myself merely explain... actually dh asked me wth I was laughing about. If anything your posts gave me one heck of a laugh.

sorry..does that answer both posts?lol

This is what happens when there are no real people, save you SO to speak to. :) Too much time and too many ways to talk to people who don't know you and may take what you say differently than you mean.

[Working Poor]

Being a foster parent and knowing what some of these children have been thru I am very concerned for children who get punished often times for just being a child.

There a great need for foster parents. If you love kids and feel you could handle getting attached and them leaving I urge you to do so. Also, there are many children who could be adopted. There are foster children who are very disturbed but the majority of them just need stability and love and understanding. There are many children who's parents are in prison for drug offenses and were not abused or neglected and the parents are very appreciative of knowing their child is safe and being well cared for.

When your heart and mind is open love can take over and nothing is better than love.

[asimplegirl]

this was almost my point exactly....tangents that have nothing to do with spankings..

If this did in your opinion relate to spankings, let me tell ya...the worst a child in home has been through is not getting a toy he wanted just out of the blue. :)

Also, mini me, I hope you didn't think I was offended or trying to offend you.. never was.

[Mini-Me]

this was almost my point exactly....tangents that have nothing to do with spankings..

If this did in your opinion relate to spankings, let me tell ya...the worst a child in home has been through is not getting a toy he wanted just out of the blue. :)

Also, mini me, I hope you didn't think I was offended or trying to offend you.. never was.

Not at all!