Unions

[cska80]

Statement: Where you find a strong union, you also find a failed state, city, corporation, or all of the above.

If false, name one.

[hadenough]

I'll take D. Final Answer.

[Elwar]

I think some are stronger than others...like vidalia has a kinda strong odor.

[KenInMontiMN]

Just keepin' it local and in just the mechanical trades, take your pick of any of close to 1000 here:
http://www.smw10.com/contractors.htm

[acptulsa]

The teachers have a strong union, but this nation isn't rubble. Yet.

[JK/SEA]

Longshore Union are the real deal. Don't mess with these guys.

[t0rnado]

The Soviet Union was pretty powerful.

[JK/SEA]

The Soviet Union was pretty powerful.

Yea, sorta like the Republican Guard?

[RPTXState]

Unions arn't the problem. The problem is forced union membership (Union or Closed shops) and poeple who join unions but don't care what they do with their money/jobs.

Texas, thankfully, has the right to work codified in our laws. We have fewer unions, and because we have union and non-union jobs side-to-side, we can see just how unionism compares to non-unionism in the real world.

Statement is false because unions don't cause a failed state; ignorance does. One could argue ignorance causes a rise in unions...

[steph3n]

The teachers have a strong union, but this nation isn't rubble. Yet.

I'd debate that, this nations education system has been rubble for a while and gets worse each day.

(But I don't blame it all on the unions here)

[fr33domfightr]

I voted False. A friend of mine works for UPS, Teamsters Union. He makes good money for what he does, but at the same time, he busts his @ss.

I understand your point though. There needs to be cooperation between labor and managment.


FF

[tggroo7]

I don't know why Union leaders can't just act fairly and rationally. Man I hate that there are so many unreasonable, selfish people.

[JK/SEA]

I don't know why Union leaders can't just act fairly and rationally. Man I hate that there are so many unreasonable, selfish people.

I don't know why Corporate leaders can't just act fairly and rationally. Man I hate that there are so many unreasonable, selfish people

[steph3n]

I don't know why Corporate leaders can't just act fairly and rationally. Man I hate that there are so many unreasonable, selfish people

I hate that there are so many unreasonable, selfish people

[JK/SEA]

I hate that there are so many unreasonable, selfish people

It starts at the top.

[Elwar]

I voted False. A friend of mine works for UPS, Teamsters Union. He makes good money for what he does, but at the same time, he busts his @ss.

I understand your point though. There needs to be cooperation between labor and managment.


FF

My brother worked for UPS in the Teamsters Union. He had to vote on a few things. His boss pretty much told him...here, you need to vote in this election...this is who you're voting for.

[Feenix566]

I hate that there are so many unreasonable, selfish people

Selfishness is the foundation of our economy. Wanna know why people get up in the morning and go to work? Selfishness. That UPS driver doesn't deliver your packages out of the kindness of his heart. He does it because you pay him to do it. If you didn't pay him to do it, you wouldn't get your package delivered. Period.

And selfishness is the same reason why UPS doesn't pay him any more than they have to. Because if they did, they'd have to pass the cost on to you. You didn't pay to have that package delivered just so that delivery guy could get the money, did you? No, you paid to have it delivered because you wanted it to be delivered. You're so selfish.

I'm selfish. You're selfish. Everybody's selfish. That's what makes the world go 'round, and there ain't a damn thin wrong with that. If we weren't so preoccupied with our own self-interest, we never would have accomplished anything. No houses, no cars, no computers, no clothes, no food. Nothing. If we weren't so damn selfish, we would have gone extinct within one generation.

[t0rnado]

Unions are stupid. They only breed more and more people who think they have a right to a job. They are idiots who think they can coerce employers into paying them a certain wage just because they think they are entitled to it.

[polomertz]

I used to be a Union Laborer (Local 6 here in Chicago.) I did concrete on high-rises. I never liked how every once in a while they would shut down the entire job site so we could go halfway across town to picket & throw stones at non-union workers. Never understood how that was productive.....

[satchelmcqueen]

ill chime in here. it all depends on the union and its goals and being honest with its members. we had a union come in at Levis the last few years we were working. (georgia plant) i joined at first because we were getting pushed around and cheated allot so i thought this would give us some fair say so. everything seemed fine until we had our first official meeting. leading up to this meeting we were promised all kinds of "leverage" to be heard. our biggest problem was Levis position on our severance package "if" we were to close down. what they offered was very good except they would not put it in writing and sign it. hence the union was welcomed by about 98% of us.

during the first meeting this was brought up. our union person from UNITE told us not to worry about our severance as it was worked out and agreed upon just a week ago. i was shocked as we never got to put out own 2 cents in. when asked what exactly was agreed on, the UNITE person dodged the question by stating that we didnt need to worry because it was all fair and we were represented very well. I was 1 of only 4 people in the whole union (around 400 total) to find this fishy and unacceptable. so without any other questions we were asked to vote yes or no to the deal they struck up. 4 of us that i know for a fact voted NO. the rest voted YES. it was announced the next day that it was a unanimous decision of a YES vote. I complained of fraud and corruption and left the union when my year was up.

Even after i voiced my concern of 4 NO votes, i was only 1 of 4 who left the union while the rest bought everything they fed them.

with that and other weird and fishy things that happened over the next 2-3 years it was very clear to me that LEVIS had brought in UNITE themselves to help do a "legal" type "we were fair" shut down that screwed all of us.

BTW our severance package was less than 1/2 of wht was promised before UNITE came in and many who were elligable for full retirement after 30+ years of hard service lost retirement in some cases by only 2 months due to Levis and UNITE re-writing the retirement packages.

One guy (Charles G) before UNITE could have retired 4 years earlier with full benefits, but choose to keep working to help support his sick mother. Before UNITE he could have retired at anytime and still got that package as he had did his full service and at any time he could have taken it. But with and after UNITE, he had towait to see the final deal as everything was suspended during the last bit of time we were there. He wound up loosing all retirement by 4 months due to the new language.

we all got screwed while Levis went to other countries for lower paid workers etc...thanks to NAFTA

although my dad belonged to a great union on his job of 13 years.

so it goes both ways.

[satchelmcqueen]

My brother worked for UPS in the Teamsters Union. He had to vote on a few things. His boss pretty much told him...here, you need to vote in this election...this is who you're voting for.

UNITE also did this at Levis during Bush /Gore i think it was. they sent out a pamplet and said that Bush would protect our jobs more so than gore would so vote for Bush. I thought that was way out of line no matter which guy they picked.

[KenInMontiMN]

Yeah, the weakness of the mfg unions is that 'locals' don't have control of their own local contracts, and don't seek to rep all mfg employees in that locality regardless of employer. Going it alone as a single-employer body is not feasible these days, plus you end up with the company, more responsive to shareholders than workers, holding the fringe funds. You also get into the self-defeating non-productive temptation of seniority rules.

That's why I like the construction union model- no seniority system, no pay except for hours worked, no paid sick time, no paid holidays, no paid vacations. An hours pay for an hours work, period, no exceptions. You get laid off and you're on the list to go back to work as contractors call for manpower. None of the benefit funds are handled by the employer, those monies are sent in to the self-administered member-controlled funds monthly, by the employers. Nobody but the members have any say in what those benefits will be, and the associated per-hour contributions off the paycheck that it will take to fund them. All contracts are negotiated by committees of local members the membership themselves elected.

Multi-employer locally run-from-within organizations are the only way and the superior way to organize, really. And that doesn't mean that different wage scales aren't possible within that local for different classifications of work- they are and they do exist within different aspects of work in a particular construction trade.

Personally I'm glad I don't live in a 'right-to-work-for-less' state, just one way to dress up a slanted playing field with a rosy banner.

[Chabsfromcanada]

I work in a great Union, make a great wage, and have nothing but good to say about it. I have worked in a non union environment as well, and it was horrible. Management pushed employees around daily, and the overall morale was poor because of it.

Also, our wage at the non union place was slightly higher than a similar union site across the road, but only to make sure we wouldnt go union as well. We never got to negotiate anything, but we did get everything the union plant got, after they got it. I always wondered if our wage would go stagnant or decrease if we werent riding on that unions coat tails.

So thats where I sit on the issue. Big business does not want to pay a fair wage. Without Unions to hold them in check, the workers will be at their mercy, and mercy is poverty.

[AutoDas]

If CEOs joined a union I bet some of you hear would make a big stink about it. CEOs don't seem to have a problem getting paid because for the most part they are paid by how much the board and company values them.

[lodge939]

I voted for the poll, not because I'm anti-union but because I think there needs to be a delicate balance between the power of the union and the power of the board. The union allows for workers not to be exploited but the union shouldnt have the power to bleed the company dry

[Feenix566]

If you don't like your job or your pay, get a better job. No offense, but if you're "at your employer's mercy", then you must not be contributing much to the job. If they could fire you tomorrow and not even know the difference, then why are you even bothering to come into work every day?

Employment is a business arrangement. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. They need your work more than they need the money, and you need the money more than you need your time. If at any time either side decides the relationship isn't worth it, either side should be allowed to cancel it without even giving a reason.

Oh and if you want a reliable retirement plan, buy your own. You can buy lifecycle mutual funds at Vanguard. Anybody can buy them. That's a whole lot more reliable than the promise that your employer will remain profitable enough forever to pay your pension.

[fr33domfightr]

I voted for the poll, not because I'm anti-union but because I think there needs to be a delicate balance between the power of the union and the power of the board. The union allows for workers not to be exploited but the union shouldnt have the power to bleed the company dry


I agree with this. As far as CEO (and BOD) pay goes, there needs to be reasonable pay scales for everyone. What we've seen in recent years is INSANE, and irresponsible. Those big 3 automakers need to really fix things, from the top down. The unions also need to be reasonable. If the business is successful, everyone wins.


FF

[UtahApocalypse]

Unions arn't the problem. The problem is forced union membership (Union or Closed shops) and poeple who join unions but don't care what they do with their money/jobs.

Texas, thankfully, has the right to work codified in our laws. We have fewer unions, and because we have union and non-union jobs side-to-side, we can see just how unionism compares to non-unionism in the real world.

Statement is false because unions don't cause a failed state; ignorance does. One could argue ignorance causes a rise in unions...

Utah is also a right to work state. We have been one of the last states nationwide to start feeling any economic impact. The only 2 companies that have had lay-offs and are struggling have Unions. Seems to me unions, while not the ONLY cause of problems definately play a role.

[haaaylee]

If you don't like your job or your pay, get a better job. No offense, but if you're "at your employer's mercy", then you must not be contributing much to the job. If they could fire you tomorrow and not even know the difference, then why are you even bothering to come into work every day?

Employment is a business arrangement. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. They need your work more than they need the money, and you need the money more than you need your time. If at any time either side decides the relationship isn't worth it, either side should be allowed to cancel it without even giving a reason.

Oh and if you want a reliable retirement plan, buy your own. You can buy lifecycle mutual funds at Vanguard. Anybody can buy them. That's a whole lot more reliable than the promise that your employer will remain profitable enough forever to pay your pension.


I'm going with this guy.


It's the most Ron Paul thing said in this thread.

[NYgs23]

Although in theory unions could be voluntary workers' associations, in practice they have often resorted to coercive/violent tactics against management and non-union labor. That's just about the only way for strikes to work. Just like regular cartels must resort to force to maintain themselves, so must labor cartels. A "fair wage" is whatever the market wage is. Workers are just members of a trade relationship: labor for money.

[M House]

Never really got the union thing, don't like your job it's called quitting. O well according to my history book they supposedly got some decent legislation passed.

[tremendoustie]

It's quite simple -- people have the right to organize if they wish. They should receive no special privileges from government, and if the employer finds out and decides to fire them, that's up to him/her. We'll have some unionized businesses, some not, and we'll see who succeeds.

It's not the job of the state to decide whether to have or not have unions, or how strong they should be.

Countries are strongest when they recognize people's rights, protect them, and thereby encourage competition and market choice.

[Theocrat]

Congressman Paul made a good point about the nature of unions when he stated this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cImJmZX74g) in a former CNBC Presidential debate.

[youngbuck]

Congressman Paul made a good point about the nature of unions when he stated this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cImJmZX74g) in a former CNBC Presidential debate.

Well put.

[Andrew Ryan]

Well put.
Well said.

[newyearsrevolution08]

Well said.

Well I too agree.