Treasury To Give Bailout No Matter What

[ItsTime]

We have lost control. Taxation without representation.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081212/treasury_autos.html

[moostraks]

We have lost control. Taxation without representation.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081212/treasury_autos.html

This isn't about the money, but public opinion. The point is for this to trash the reputation of general labor and the greedy bastards who dare to request a living wage.:rolleyes:

Unions are being villified right now while the obvious question of why GM continues to expend funds on global expansion despite not being able to cover its bills goes unanswered. This is akin to realizing you can't pay your mortgage but going out and buying rental property while your family lives under a bridge.Ugh!!!!

[cska80]

Sorry, but even if they were making on average $30 per hour with some co-pays and a decent pension, I'd still say they make too much. The fact is, everywhere and anywhere you see strong unions you see a failed state, city or corporation, and the same tired arguments.

Like I put on my Facebook page...

General Motors is Taggart Transcontinental. The CEO's are James Taggart and Orren Boyle. The workers are the unwitting workers for Taggart Transcontinental. The union bosses are Fred Kninnan. Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the communists are Wesley Mouch and his cronies. The 'economist' talking heads on CNBC and the rest are Dr. Hugh Akston. Who is John Galt?

[fletcher]

This isn't about the money, but public opinion. The point is for this to trash the reputation of general labor and the greedy bastards who dare to request a living wage.:rolleyes:

The unions should be trashed. What they make is far, far, far more than a living wage. They destroyed the company, now they deal with the aftermath.

[moostraks]

Sorry, but even if they were making on average $30 per hour with some co-pays and a decent pension, I'd still say they make too much. The fact is, everywhere and anywhere you see strong unions you see a failed state, city or corporation, and the same tired arguments.

Like I put on my Facebook page...

General Motors is Taggart Transcontinental. The CEO's are James Taggart and Orren Boyle. The workers are the unwitting workers for Taggart Transcontinental. The union bosses are Fred Kninnan. Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the communists are Wesley Mouch and his cronies. The 'economist' talking heads on CNBC and the rest are Dr. Hugh Akston. Who is John Galt?

They aren't making that much per hour but that is irrelevant to most people as msm says they are averaging $70/hr. New hires make $14/hr and previous workers make $26/hr. Pensions are no longer available.(New hire) Oh, and the pensions everyone is so gungho on GM get out from under are guaranteed by a government pension fund, so the taxpayers are the ones on the hook here if GM reorganizes, but MSM fails to define this to the public so they can be properly outraged.(PBGC-"PBGC is a federal corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974")

This is all about propaganda and getting people to villify labor...In my opinion, 426/hour is not an outrageous cost for the back breaking labor down on some assembly lines. We should not be villifying compensation for productive members of a business(labor) while the management gets a pass when they are well paid and making stupid decisions.

[moostraks]

The unions should be trashed. What they make is far, far, far more than a living wage. They destroyed the company, now they deal with the aftermath.

I just got a $600 combined utility bill this month living in their neck of the woods (and my average house hold temperature is roughly 60 degrees). I would dare say that this ain't far more than a living wage in these parts if you are trying to make a house payment as well as other daily living expenses...

[moostraks]

The unions should be trashed. What they make is far, far, far more than a living wage. They destroyed the company, now they deal with the aftermath.

Yeah, it didn't have anything to do with what the banks have pulled with drying up credit lines, or mangements poor decisions on car models or expansion projects during a downturn.:rolleyes:

[KenInMontiMN]

The politicians and supposed free marketeers who tipped the playing field towards massive ongoing trade deficit, thereby destroying our economy and costing us half our present debt, are the ones who need the trashing. Not unions, not automakers. It's not like the Japanese companies are in any better shape, with the Yen rising against the dollar and nobody buying they are in exactly the same dismal shape and you will see bankruptcies and/or bailouts there as well.

Morons who insist on attacking Americans to force them into a lower standard of living are the problem here, not the solution- and that's a battle we've been letting them win for far too long- and again, exactly half the reason why we're at where we're at today. If reasonable balance of trade along with fiscal sanity from the gov't had been in place all along, we'd be a much wealthier country for it, instead of floating belly-up in the global cesspool.

[puppetmaster]

I heard the Union guys say that even if they were paid nothing they would lose money....Now how can they call this a viable business if they can get labor for free and they still lose money? They keep talking about the lower labor paying countries having an edge but even they pay more than zero.

[KenInMontiMN]

It's too late for any bailout to work- nobody's buying on a scale that allows for profitability in any case. That's not going to change anytime real soon. They're right about that unprofitability in any case, and its equally true for the foreign manufacturer. There was a time we could have fixed all this, but that's now water under the bridge. The economy will continue to collapse, and once things hit bottom we'll see whether we're capable of implementing new growth in stable and sustainable fashion or not. Probably not, running into boom-bust brick walls seems to be the preferred way to drive an economy these days.

[fletcher]

I just got a $600 combined utility bill this month living in their neck of the woods (and my average house hold temperature is roughly 60 degrees). I would dare say that this ain't far more than a living wage in these parts if you are trying to make a house payment as well as other daily living expenses...

$600?? Its your fault for staying there and paying that. I pay a sixth of that. Just because you choose to live in a area that rips you off doesn't mean you are entitled to a 'living wage' that will cover your inflated costs. Your costs are your problem, not the governments or the company you work for. If you don't make enough then find someone else that will pay you more.

[fletcher]

Yeah, it didn't have anything to do with what the banks have pulled with drying up credit lines, or mangements poor decisions on car models or expansion projects during a downturn.:rolleyes:

The car manufacturers in the south are making a profit, so it obviously is not the banks. And they are still selling a lot of cars (gm is the largest) so it isn't the car models. The unions are a cancer. They killed their host, now they need to die.

[moostraks]

$600?? Its your fault for staying there and paying that. I pay a sixth of that. Just because you choose to live in a area that rips you off doesn't mean you are entitled to a 'living wage' that will cover your inflated costs. Your costs are your problem, not the governments or the company you work for. If you don't make enough then find someone else that will pay you more.

Yeah, mass influx into Georgia worked wonders for the cost of housing...:rolleyes:
Mexico has a low cost of living but I ain't moving there either. I love where I live and we don't have a house note so we are fairing well enough. However, living wage is relative and what you think is a living wage is not for others.The fact is if everyone moved to one location then supply and demand laws will create an inflation in costs. Individuals like yourself seem to think the answer to everything is to take from the bottem of the pile and give to the top of the corporation without realizing you will only increase the number of people who are unable to succeed independantly and decrease the actual number of people with disposable income to keep the economy going.

Our citizens wages should be a massive concern because when they are going unemployed while corporations from America go outside of the country and reap huge profits at the expense of other nations low overhead costs, we ultimately suffer the consequences together!!! When southernors with short sided views fail to realize that by accepting lower wages they will never get out of the trailer park, everyone is hurt by it.

[moostraks]

The car manufacturers in the south are making a profit, so it obviously is not the banks. And they are still selling a lot of cars (gm is the largest) so it isn't the car models. The unions are a cancer. They killed their host, now they need to die.

The disparity in wages comes from the pensions, unions conceeded everything they could last year. You are the heartless sort that seems to have a screw 'em attitude since those who are retired have no current value anymore. May karma come and bite you in the backside with that attitude.

Heard a guy on local radio this am who works at a non-union auto plant in the south and he is pretty sick of not being able to get out of the hole with his wages being what they are. Since union new hires are now making $14/hr here I wonder what the so called living wages are in the South at these non-union plants you think are so swell. Just because they are turning a profit doesn't mean they are treating their employees well....The unions have been serving as a check and balance for the non-union plants to keep from unionizing, once the threat is gone you can bet money that corporations will do what they have always done which is screw the little man as much as they can in search of the higher profits.

[Dary]

What about the bankruptcy lawyers? If we keep bailing everybody out, what will the bankruptcy lawyers do? We will have to bailout the bankruptcy lawyers. Will the feds demand that the bankruptcy lawyers demonstrate economic viability?

[fletcher]

Yeah, mass influx into Georgia worked wonders for the cost of housing...:rolleyes:
Mexico has a low cost of living but I ain't moving there either. I love where I live and we don't have a house note so we are fairing well enough. However, living wage is relative and what you think is a living wage is not for others.The fact is if everyone moved to one location then supply and demand laws will create an inflation in costs. Individuals like yourself seem to think the answer to everything is to take from the bottem of the pile and give to the top of the corporation without realizing you will only increase the number of people who are unable to succeed independantly and decrease the actual number of people with disposable income to keep the economy going.

I don't think anyone should take anything from anyone else. That is what you want. I think each person should earn what they are worth. If you think you are worth more than you are paid then get a job that pays you more. And I never proposed everyone move to a single place. That apparently is your idiotic suggestion. It's as dumb as you paying $600 a month in utilities.


Our citizens wages should be a massive concern because when they are going unemployed while corporations from America go outside of the country and reap huge profits at the expense of other nations low overhead costs, we ultimately suffer the consequences together!!! When southernors with short sided views fail to realize that by accepting lower wages they will never get out of the trailer park, everyone is hurt by it.

Yea, we should keep wages artificially high because companies want to offshore to keep expense down. You realize that you don't make any sense, right?

Shouldn't you be at Democratic Underground discussing Marx right now?

[nbhadja]

Yeah, mass influx into Georgia worked wonders for the cost of housing...:rolleyes:
Mexico has a low cost of living but I ain't moving there either. I love where I live and we don't have a house note so we are fairing well enough. However, living wage is relative and what you think is a living wage is not for others.The fact is if everyone moved to one location then supply and demand laws will create an inflation in costs. Individuals like yourself seem to think the answer to everything is to take from the bottem of the pile and give to the top of the corporation without realizing you will only increase the number of people who are unable to succeed independantly and decrease the actual number of people with disposable income to keep the economy going.

Our citizens wages should be a massive concern because when they are going unemployed while corporations from America go outside of the country and reap huge profits at the expense of other nations low overhead costs, we ultimately suffer the consequences together!!! When southernors with short sided views fail to realize that by accepting lower wages they will never get out of the trailer park, everyone is hurt by it.

Unions DESTROY. Fuck unions.
The typical American is a moron who spends more money than they have. They have expensive cell phones and cars yet they complain they do not have enough money. It ticks me off.

I hate unions and I hate minimum wages.

[moostraks]

I don't think anyone should take anything from anyone else. That is what you want. I think each person should earn what they are worth. If you think you are worth more than you are paid then get a job that pays you more. And I never proposed everyone move to a single place. That apparently is your idiotic suggestion. It's as dumb as you paying $600 a month in utilities.



Yea, we should keep wages artificially high because companies want to offshore to keep expense down. You realize that you don't make any sense, right?

Shouldn't you be at Democratic Underground discussing Marx right now?

No, you proposed that everyone (or those who are employed by a corporation who does not esteem labors value in producing a product) move to where expenses are low which I stated defeats the purpose of low outgo, because supply and demand would cause certain costs to inflate. You really latch onto media propaganda. You were the one who stated move where outgo is less (inadvertantly by making the analogy if someone lives in an area where outgo is high the should starve or find high wage employment or presumably move to be paid wages surviable on according to their skill level).Essentially what I argued was they was stating in their locale the wage was commensurate with area expenses, and you were irrationally basing their wages as inflated based upon your expenses (by claiming they were well above living wage).

As for my personnal situation you are clueless but since you are being so presumptuous, I will right your inaccurate assessment of my personnal situation. I own my home outright, and high utility bills are for a duration so when taking in totality of a year time frame, I can live in a home 4 times the size of the home we were paying an outrageous amount for the next 25 years in Atlanta as well as paying utility bills equivalent to the bills averaged out over a year here and the people are not as vain and selfish here as we experienced in the south. Plus we have 4 seasons of weather and not nearly the level of worry about access to water for household usage. All this for less than we worried about down south, where they are screwing the autoworkers because the south accepts low wages as a right of passsage or as a statement of fact because they never have seen their own self worth when it comes to valuing those who are laborers and actually do the hands on work of producing a product.

Wages aren't taking but requiring a company to pay at a level which allows their employees to survive much less have the incentive of a future of increasing prosperity which allows them to purchase products they produce as well as spend money in their community thus increasing the wealth of the society at large. If your employee cannot pay for a roof over their head or food on the table, then they are not going to be an effective employee nor will there be loyalty.

Unions are being maligned but they conceeded all they could. How would you feel if you had agreed to employment at a certain wage and gauged all your expenses to that income and then been told accept this new decreased amount or else? How many mortgages are predicated on that income they are now trying to decrease? How many people moved to be employed at a certain wage and now have to relocate again according to your logic because the company is breaking contract? The union already agreed to substantially lower wages for new hires last year that is below living wage with no pensions, so the only hold up now would have been long timers wages or retirees. Gambling with the pensions from a union perspective would be stupid because the unions are supported by their members and if the company folds the pensions are guaranteed by the government through the PBGC.

What american corporations have chosen to do is to take their complexes to where wages are lower after our citizens gave them enough capital to expand. Now those who were the backbone of the creation of these companies are being hung out to dry after promises were made for the continued care of the employee if they dedicated their lives to the production of the product while the company expands overseas and exploits a new market. The ones vilified are not those who have exploited one continent and are proceeding to move onto another but the people who produced the product to originally allow the company to expand and now are being left behind for higher profit margins elsewhere. Those who fail to see further than the tip of their nose or rationalize the policies of a company who exploits its workers without remorse deserve to have the same propaganda machine exploit them and maybe we will have policies that prevent the minority from continuing with this behavior.

Nice dig with the Marxist comment. However, I am only advocating for respect for hardworking citizens who are being exploited for the benefit of a small minority. If we respected our fellow citizens more instead of constantly undermining each other we would get further as a society. Greed and ignorance are the destructive forces which those in power use to divide and conquer. You are being used as a pawn and will join those who have already been sacrificed to advance the causes of the elite.

[Epic]

It is not government's right to steal from people to pay others. Those who want to help are free to donate to GM.

You are advocating slavery in the name of freedom. I'm curious, do you like Ron Paul?

[Danke]

Unions are like Jooz, they have wrecked this great country, and the world.

[werdd]

congress ought to just go home, it doesnt matter if they pass a damn vote anymore the central planners at the White House do whatever the hell they want. Was true under king George, will be true again under king Barry.

[sdczen]

Let the union go by the wayside. They have outlived their course. When they wouldn't concede to a more sensible plan, by lowering their union costs so that the loan could be made. This is very arrogant of the unions and more arrogant by the treasury bypassing congress and mis-allocating funds.

The UAW cut it's nose off to spite it's face. I'm sure many of those workers would have agreed to take a smaller wage or maybe less benefits in order to keep their jobs. The collective has spoken and bypassed all individual rights.

I'm sure that GM will go out of bankrupt, regardless of the loan. Their last quarter they had a $7Billion burn rate. That means they burned through 7Billion in cash/capital in 3 months. Now, this paltry 14 billion split up between the big 3 isn't going touch the viability of GM. It might kick the can down the road a few months.

We have to logically follow this through. How many people will have the cash to buy new & overpriced cars in the next few years? I would wager a guess that not too many is the answer. The big 3 will have to reduce it's footprint by 1/2 in order to make a go of it.

Here is a question: why doesn't the Union put up the billions it has in cash and buy into the company they are working for? I realize this is a conflict of interest, however, everyone says it's a win win situation for the "would-be investor". I say put their money where their employees are.

[moostraks]

It is not government's right to steal from people to pay others. Those who want to help are free to donate to GM.

You are advocating slavery in the name of freedom. I'm curious, do you like Ron Paul?

Drama queen...my point is unions aren't the root of all evil. Corporatism however left uncheck will be the enslaver. Have you ever listened to what RP said about corporatism?