Getting Frustrated and Sad With Mean-Spirited "Liberals"...

[BuddyRey]

I probably should post this in the "Vent" forum, but it almost seemed like such a broad and universal theme that starting a dialogue in the GenPol area would make more sense and spur a better discussion. Any mod is welcome to move it if he/she feels otherwise...

Two years ago, before I or anybody else in my circle of influence knew of Ron Paul, I was quite an extremely left-wing liberal. In fact, I don't think it would have been much of a stretch or mischaracterization at all to have referred to me as a Socialist, Anarcho-Syndicalist, or even a Marxian Communist. I knew nothing about economics and had no idea how dangerous my proposals, if put into practice, would actually be. My intentions were entirely pure, and I deeply, sincerely believed that socialism would help people. Unfortunately, I was very misguided, and (somewhat) willfully ignorant.

From the very first Republican debate Ron Paul ever took part in, I was thoroughly intrigued and, even then, very excited by the new ideas he espoused. I was leery of his economic programs, but I suspected that his endorsement of laissez-faire was more out of naivety than malice or greed. I joined these forums in May of 2007, still convinced that free markets had led to every great evil, from war and poverty, to the healthcare crisis. I obstinately stuck to this conviction for the longest time (much to the chagrin of many of my long-suffering fellow RPF'ers who tried persistently to show me otherwise). After refusing for the longest time to give them the time of day, I finally began to do some of my own reading, and slowly started to come around to new facts, concepts, and realities. From Left-Liberalism to Georgism, Minarchism, and finally Voluntaryism, my gradual advancement toward an ideology of absolute liberty took place in slow, painful baby steps which continue to this day.

Ever since I set out on this vast and extensive quest for the truth, learning about Ron Paul, libertarianism, Austrian economics, sound money, free markets, and liberty in general, I have reached several points in my journey in which I had to come to grips with painful realizations, questions, cognitive dissonances, and general political "growing pains." One of the most hurtful realizations I've had to face is that, even though I have a great many liberal friends and compatriots whom I love and cherish, and who, in turn, have been open, receptive, and tolerant of my changing attitudes, there are just as many folks on the left who now hate my guts, despite the fact that I share SO MANY of their goals and values, and that I never lost the sense of compassion or concern for the welfare of the needy that so characterizes the heart of a liberal. The only thing that has changed is this; I now realize that the problems of poverty and indigence cannot be rightfully or morally addressed by the tyrannical predations of a brutal and despotic criminal gang, with a monopolistic protection racket known as "government."

My heart never changed; never blackened or grew cold to the downtrodden. Only my perception of the nature of the solution changed. And yet there seems to be a contingent of liberals, especially prevalent on YouTube and the blogosphere, who, for a reason completely unknown and perhaps unknowable to me, continuously try to conflate the beautiful, non-violent philosophy of libertarianism and individualism that I have come to adopt as my own, with radical right-wing ideology, neoconservatism, and even Nazism! They read hatred for the poor, love for greedy corporate bigwigs & crony capitalism, and a general attitude of disdain and disgust toward the helpless into libertarians' lofty and unmistakably liberal (in the true sense of the term) ideals; and they suspect many of us of trying to cloak this imagined elitism in deceptive terms like "individual liberty", "voluntaryism", and "freedom from coercion".

Despite the fact that Hitler was a command-and-control dictator who believed that force was fine as long as it was used in defense of the state and "the race", somehow, a group of people who consistently and emphatically oppose ALL initiated force, no matter which cause it portends to serve, are now lumped in with all forms of rotten men and rotten ideologies. Just today, I saw a YouTuber in a video comments section trying to defend the position that Hitler wasn't really a socialist, but a radical libertarian; and that he spoke quite vociferously in favor of limiting government and cutting taxes, which is all patently ridiculous. I thought the only people who subscribed to such nonsense were the very people disseminating it, through establishment neoliberal propaganda outlets like The Progressive and The New Republic. This same commenter claimed that Ron Paul is a secret racist and anti-Semite, despite the fact that most of his heroes, and the men whose pictures hang on the wall of his office, are Jewish economists!!!

There is no logic to this "secret Nazi" conspiracy theory at all. There is no freaking way Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard, Thomas Sowell, or Walter Williams would work to perpetuate an ideology that wishes to eradicate them and their progeny from the face of the planet! As "kooky" as we Ron Paul supporters are all supposed to be (according to the chortling pablum-spewers of the Mainstream Media anyway), these people sound much less mentally balanced to me. They are either stark-raving nuts, thoroughly brainwashed, or intellectually dishonest to an unthinkably malevolent degree. And what's more, a few of them (especially of the Wonkette-DailyKos variety) seem so very hostile to libertarians that they are willing to be incredibly mean-spirited and divisive in conversation or debate, even when there is much that libertarians and liberals agree on! Instead of building bridges, finding common ground, and forging alliances, they call us names, demonize us, and are even willing to defend loyalist Republican neocons (ostensibly their worst enemy, and intuitively FAR more of a threat to their values than we are) when they attack from the other direction.

Even when I was a Socialist, I wasn't a toadying partisan footstool like some of these people are. I was always willing to talk to libertarians on a civil level, and in fact I knew many who were good friends. These people seem to care nothing about ideals and everything about making sure *their team* wins the stupid, phony Red Team Vs. Blue Team game, at any cost!

I'm just frustrated and dejected about this whole thing. And damn sick of seeing people who should be allies in our fight to end war and restore civil liberties spit in our faces, call us Nazis, and refuse to acknowledge our shared objectives in any way. I know that not all liberals are like this, and that the vast majority of them are well-meaning folks. I don't even think it's my job necessarily to "change" them or convert them to my way of thinking, as long as they're nice people who I can have friendly conversations with. I suppose my new quest now is to figure out how to separate *these* liberals from the petty five to ten percent of them who wouldn't cross the street to pee on me if I was on fire, and then begin fostering some ecumenical dialogue. But until these venomously dishonest and spiteful individuals stop "poisoning the well" with their lies and fearmongering, we're going to have to work twice as hard to show others the path to liberty and understanding.

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

This stems mainly from the inability to see the world in anything but a plain, black and white, good vs. evil duality. I hate to push another thread in this direction, but it's mainly religion that teaches people to act this way.

[heavenlyboy34]

This stems mainly from the inability to see the world in anything but a plain, black and white, good vs. evil duality. I hate to push another thread in this direction, but it's mainly religion that teaches people to act this way.

With the help of the State all the way. :(

[BuddyRey]

This stems mainly from the inability to see the world in anything but a plain, black and white, good vs. evil duality. I hate to push another thread in this direction, but it's mainly religion that teaches people to act this way.

I see your point. I guess, to a lot of these folks, the DNC is almost like a religion of sorts.

It sounds kind of gullible, but I never would have expected liberals to act this way. I thought they were supposed to be open-minded and tolerant (at least, this is the attribute they're most commonly known for). I've had better luck conversing with many frothing neocons than I have some of the Kos-Wonkette style liberals!

This inevitably makes me feel bad about myself, and that I must be becoming some kind of a "right-winger", since I've lost the ability to communicate my ideas effectively to my intended audience. This is sad for me because I consider myself a liberal at heart, even though I have rejected government force, taxation, and wealth redistribution. I still feel like liberals are "my people", and that I should be able to reach them more easily than I find myself doing.

[SeanEdwards]

I don't think it is always religion that leads people to act this way. I have an aunt that is exceedingly left-progressive in her politics, and she is not particularily religious.

I think it's an aspect of human nature that makes it compelling to demonize those people we disagree with. They're not simply people with a different opinion, they're fascist scumbags, or they're socialist assholes. I think its easy for people to collectivize an individual into a hated group, and then to make that individual the target of all the hate that has been built up towards the imagined collective entity. Then begin the aspersions of motive. It's no longer a simple disagreement between people, now one person is on the payroll of some vast conspiracy, paid to lie and spread disinformation. Or someone is merely greedy for self-gain and their calls for less government are a cover for them to loot more from the downtrodden.

Witness the rioting in Athens today becaue police shot and killed a youth. The rioting anarchists are convinced that the killing was unjustified, so they are burning and looting. But do they really know what happened? Or are they just reacting against their hated perception of the "state" as represented by the cops? The point is that human monkeys often don't use their brains to decide a proper course of action, they react at a gut level, usually following their pre-conceived prejudices, whether those prejudices relate to race, gender, politics, religion, etc. The more people are sure of their beliefs, the more they must view others who don't share those beliefs as less than human. To do otherwise, would be to call into question their own humanity, and who wants to do that?

[BuddyRey]

Shameless self-blump!

C'mon now, I poured my heart into this thread, and I could really use some advice, or at least some fellow travelers to commiserate with.

[newyearsrevolution08]

We will remain having issues until we unite once again around a common goal. Once that goal is found we will continue pointing fingers and debating each other. We had over a year of heated debates, people telling us how much they hate us, laughed at us and NOW we just have each other. We are thick skinned now, but bark AND bite a bit harder at each other than we should.

Politics + Religion never went well together and to get people to talk about it who ALL have been in more than enough debates, it tends to end up over 30 pages long and tends to draw a line in the sand all on its own.

When it comes down to an issue and we really had to pick sides, most people within our forum and this effort will end up on one side or the other EVEN THOUGH on larger issues we all are on the same side.

We need to focus on what we need to change that is actually WRITTEN in our constitution and so forth and leave personal and spiritual beliefs out of it. No 2 people BELIEVE the same way so don't ever assume that pushing laws based on beliefs will ever work for more than 1 person.

Keep it political, toss the "I believe" threads in the religion section and keep politics just that POLITICS.

This would remove b.s. abortion threads, 9-11 threads, gay threads and so on because we need to stick to the bigger picture. If we fix our system and get it back to how it was, all the rest will fall in line. Christians can believe however they want, gay people can go be gay wherever they want, gun people can go and build bunkers in the mountains and buy tons of guns all they want, and the 9-11 truthers can finally stop screaming and go find out what really happened on 9-11 because all of those "private" files that should be "public would then be PUBLIC. Along with plenty of other docs that they won't let the American people see.

[newyearsrevolution08]

Shameless self-blump!

C'mon now, I poured my heart into this thread, and I could really use some advice, or at least some fellow travelers to commiserate with.

I threw my hat in the ring for yah. btw I jumped off the dem vs repub and went straight to where our division lies within our group itself who also see black and white at most times. Trying to expand the conversation a bit as well. I don't care for parties personally and party voters piss me off too much lol.

[MN Patriot]

I think there are two kinds of bad liberals, rich and poor.

My experience with the "low class" liberals are that many of them are failures of one kind or another. They resent people who they perceive as being "better" than them. These type of liberals lack the ambition to do what it takes to suceed, and revel in the failures of the marketplace, and seeing the rich being humiliated. The current economy is proof that capitialism is a failure, even though socialist policies cause our problems. They don't care about personal wealth, and have no respect for the wealth of others. How do deal with them? Pretty tough to do, they have deep seated emotional issues that can't be rationally dealt with. It might be a good thing to let them have free reign with their abuse, so that intelligent people can see what they are made of.

My observation of rich liberals is they are ruthless power mongers who want control over people and wealth. Ted Turner comes to mind, most Democratic members of Congress fit this mold, and most any Democrat who has run for Congress. They just use people, exploit their ignorance.

Then there is a minority of liberals like yourself, who are genuinely concerned about people, but have misdirected their concern in collectivism. I occasionally run into this type, some are familar with free market economics, and are willing to discuss issues fairly. Eventually they will see the light.

[angelatc]

Rejection is part of politics, and certainly part of the Ron Paul brand.

Finding out that people are far more interested in being in control rather than being right is heartbreaking. It was hard for all of us. Those of us in the GOP were excited to hear a conservative message in the party, and honestly surprised to find out that it isn't welcome there either.

We really thought that our TV and radio heros, like Hannity, would hear the message,too. When they mocked it it was a double affront, because they were letting us down when we had always been fans in the past.

Leaving home is hard.

[Danke]

I know, it's WND, but funny nonetheless:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=56494

http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?DEPARTMENT_ID=6&SUBDEPARTMENT_ID=20&ITEM_ID=2285

[smileylovesfreedom]

I see your point. I guess, to a lot of these folks, the DNC is almost like a religion of sorts.

It sounds kind of gullible, but I never would have expected liberals to act this way. I thought they were supposed to be open-minded and tolerant (at least, this is the attribute they're most commonly known for). I've had better luck conversing with many frothing neocons than I have some of the Kos-Wonkette style liberals!

This inevitably makes me feel bad about myself, and that I must be becoming some kind of a "right-winger", since I've lost the ability to communicate my ideas effectively to my intended audience. This is sad for me because I consider myself a liberal at heart, even though I have rejected government force, taxation, and wealth redistribution. I still feel like liberals are "my people", and that I should be able to reach them more easily than I find myself doing.

Is there an issue you can work on in your area that would be "common ground" with your liberal friends? Maybe by focusing on commonality first and then differences, you'll find it easier to communicate to the person or audience? I find that you can make friends with some people if you are able to build a connection before they are able to completely label you as a "right-winger".

[LittleLightShining]

Is there an issue you can work on in your area that would be "common ground" with your liberal friends? Maybe by focusing on commonality first and then differences, you'll find it easier to communicate to the person or audience? I find that you can make friends with some people if you are able to build a connection before they are able to completely label you as a "right-winger".OP, I know how you feel. Most of my friends are self-proclaimed liberals, too.

I think smiley has a good point. I think property rights is a good jumping off point. At least I think it is here in VT. Over the last year I worked on a composting issue and most of the support we got was from the left. Even though I worked the angle that our our regulatory policy in Vermont (which was created by the left) went against the basic idea of property rights. In this case the issue dealt with farming-- what is and is not considered farming and how much say a new neighbor has in the growth and development of an existing farm.

Another issue I have personal interest and experience in is wind energy. You will see the left fall over themselves to promote the idea of sustainable, green energy. However here in VT a project that was perfectly suited to a specific location was effectively stopped (it's still in Supreme Court after the developer agreed to cut the project in half) by people who live elsewhere but feel it's their right to protect my land.

It's frustrating to say the least, but it's important to find issues that people really feel strongly about that you both agree on and CAN be changed with some cooperation.

[BuddyRey]

Bumped to commemorate the vile and disgusting interview tactics of "progressive" Lawrence O'Donnell, who epitomizes the hateful, divisive element on the left to whom this rant was originally directed.

[amy31416]

Good post Buddy. I had a liberal friend call me a "right-wing militant," a racist, etc. because of my beliefs. I've also been called naive (often on here) for not hating or condemning all Muslims, my "neocon" relatives don't see much wrong with all the warmongering.

But hey, that liberal "friend" is now much less hostile because he feels like an ass for pimping Obama so hard--especially considering that he's just as much a warmonger as Bush. I'll bet he's dumb enough to vote for him again though, because the Republican candidate will be "scary" and he won't "waste" a vote on a 3rd party.

In my opinion, liberals won't take you seriously unless you have a PhD or have done super-cool "liberal" things like volunteered in a 3rd world country--they love an "authority" figure. Conservatives won't take you seriously unless you're ragging on a Democrat and own a decent gun. :p

[Wren]

Wow, that was a great post. I've always been an independent my entire life but I can relate to how you feel when talking to these people irl or on HuffPo/other leftist blogs, HuffPo probably being the worst due to the amount of smug, snarky people that dwell there. Most leftists I've spoken to tend to approach these issues emotionally, not logically. I'll use my sister, who's an extreme leftist, as one example. At one time I tried to convince her about supporting Ron Paul but she wouldn't budge on the issue of universal health care. So I tried to explain it to her this way: in which situation are people dying and suffering more? The WARS or people without health care? She wouldn't really give me a direct answer and would always end up saying "we need universal health care". She's a social worker, so the things she sees on a day-to-day basis makes the health care issue is a big priority.

[phill4paul]

Hey I just had a discussion with an Obama liberal supporter, life long Dem, that is a full supporter of the war in Afghanistan, ex- mil and Patriot Missile tech, last week. Really.
Just goes to show that no one fits neatly into a box.
Find commonality then move to other issues or just plant the seed and move on.

[oyarde]

This stems mainly from the inability to see the world in anything but a plain, black and white, good vs. evil duality. I hate to push another thread in this direction, but it's mainly religion that teaches people to act this way.

I thought liberals were godless . :)

[oyarde]

I think there are two kinds of bad liberals, rich and poor.

My experience with the "low class" liberals are that many of them are failures of one kind or another. They resent people who they perceive as being "better" than them. These type of liberals lack the ambition to do what it takes to suceed, and revel in the failures of the marketplace, and seeing the rich being humiliated. The current economy is proof that capitialism is a failure, even though socialist policies cause our problems. They don't care about personal wealth, and have no respect for the wealth of others. How do deal with them? Pretty tough to do, they have deep seated emotional issues that can't be rationally dealt with. It might be a good thing to let them have free reign with their abuse, so that intelligent people can see what they are made of.

My observation of rich liberals is they are ruthless power mongers who want control over people and wealth. Ted Turner comes to mind, most Democratic members of Congress fit this mold, and most any Democrat who has run for Congress. They just use people, exploit their ignorance.

Then there is a minority of liberals like yourself, who are genuinely concerned about people, but have misdirected their concern in collectivism. I occasionally run into this type, some are familar with free market economics, and are willing to discuss issues fairly. Eventually they will see the light.

I think the key is they have not worked for prosperity and that is why there is no respect .

[oyarde]

Good post Buddy. I had a liberal friend call me a "right-wing militant," a racist, etc. because of my beliefs. I've also been called naive (often on here) for not hating or condemning all Muslims, my "neocon" relatives don't see much wrong with all the warmongering.

But hey, that liberal "friend" is now much less hostile because he feels like an ass for pimping Obama so hard--especially considering that he's just as much a warmonger as Bush. I'll bet he's dumb enough to vote for him again though, because the Republican candidate will be "scary" and he won't "waste" a vote on a 3rd party.

In my opinion, liberals won't take you seriously unless you have a PhD or have done super-cool "liberal" things like volunteered in a 3rd world country--they love an "authority" figure. Conservatives won't take you seriously unless you're ragging on a Democrat and own a decent gun. :p

I am confused , I own a decent weapon and have volunteered in a third world country . :)

[AuH20]

I think the key is they have not worked for prosperity and that is why there is no respect .

I''ll tell you what's irony. The engine of the free market creates prosperity. And this prosperity eventually creates liberals by the bundle.

[oyarde]

I''ll tell you what's irony. The engine of the free market creates prosperity. And this prosperity eventually creates liberals by the bundle.

I agree .

[phill4paul]

I am confused , I own a decent weapon and have volunteered in a third world country . :)

LMAO on that one.:D

[Inkblots]

BuddyRey, this post is a very compelling portrait of some difficulties all lovers of liberty have to face. Tribalism and unthinking allegiance to a world-view that is, rather than the product of considered reasoning and research, accepted as received wisdom from talk show hosts or party platform committees is the greatest challenge to the on-going libertarian educational project. And, as you point out with regard to the O'Donnell interview, it's just as much a problem now as when you first started this thread.

However, if the Tea Party movement, the current terrible approval ratings for all parts of government, and the various forms of anger and fear sweeping the population are an indication of anything, it's of an inchoate understanding among the great mass of politically unengaged people - the folks who don't frequent political forums, give deep thought to their political convictions, or really pay much attention to the philosophy of government - that something is deeply wrong with the way our country is being run. And people around here are correct that this concern is frequently being high-jacked, co-opted, or diverted to focus on the wrong issues. But it's also true that these unsettled people are the people that we can appeal to, much more fruitfully than the hard-core partisans on both sides who are more interested in winning than in truth. And so, while this moment is in some ways scary, it's also very heartening.

[amy31416]

I am confused , I own a decent weapon and have volunteered in a third world country . :)

Don't destroy my simplistic right-left paradigm, dammit!

[ClayTrainor]

Bumped to commemorate the vile and disgusting interview tactics of "progressive" Lawrence O'Donnell, who epitomizes the hateful, divisive element on the left to whom this rant was originally directed.

I'm glad you bumped this, it was an excellent read!

I come from a very similar liberal/socialist background much like you Buddy. Once I first heard Ron Paul speak back in 2007, it's like a switch turned on in my brain and I began my journey through Leftism, to minarchism and finally to voluntarism. I basically took the same path you did at about the same time.

Anyways man, great write-up. I meet these kinds of hateful liberals all the time, but as long as you keep a rational, kind and respectful approach to your discussions every curious on-looker will see that and it will have value.

Thanks again for the bump, it was a great read!

[oyarde]

I'm glad you bumped this, it was an excellent read!

I come from a very similar liberal/socialist background much like you Buddy. Once I first heard Ron Paul speak back in 2007, it's like a switch turned on in my brain and I began my journey through Leftism, to minarchism and finally to voluntarism. I basically took the same path you did at about the same time.

Anyways man, great write-up. I meet these kinds of hateful liberals all the time, but as long as you keep a rational, kind and respectful approach to your discussions every curious on-looker will see that and it will have value.

Thanks again for the bump, it was a great read!

So you were rehabilitated . Excellent ! I was not aware of success like that .

[ninepointfive]

go for the common ground with social liberties

Then throw in sound money and economics. Describe the current system as not being capitalist, but corporatist. Inflation as counterfeiting. Liberals have no idea of economic freedom, and reaping what you sow.

I converted one of my friends, and the sticking issue of libertarianism that converted him was emphasizing decentralized control of governments. In essence, a republic.

or show them this: Overview of America (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9214841587382457812#)

[ClayTrainor]

So you were rehabilitated . Excellent ! I was not aware of success like that .

Yup. All it takes is an open mind. I'm still open to being corrected on my positions, if they can be demonstrated to be wrong.:)

[LibForestPaul]

My heart never changed; never blackened or grew cold to the downtrodden. Only my perception of the nature of the solution changed. And yet there seems to be a contingent of liberals, especially prevalent on YouTube and the blogosphere, who, for a reason completely unknown and perhaps unknowable to me, continuously try to conflate the beautiful, non-violent philosophy of libertarianism and individualism that I have come to adopt as my own, with radical right-wing ideology, neoconservatism, and even Nazism!

Are all mens hearts pure? Are those that post such vitriol true compassionate liberals, or closet dictators, waiting for someone else to pay for their neighbor's woes?

[nobody's_hero]

I'm too busy getting frustrated with "conservatives" to notice the "liberals" much.

It's like the liberals are doing exactly what you'd expect, but the "conservatives" should know better. That's frustrating.

[Sentient Void]

When you debate, debate those who are supporting the state, and shoot down all of their arguments, but do it as intellectually, logically, and courteously as you can. Make sure it's in front of a wide audience as you do it.

The idiot statists usually aren't open to changing their minds (though some are) - but remember - it's not their minds you are after... it's the audience who haven't settled on a position yet and are hearing all sides.

Here's a good scene to illustrate my approach and what I think works well - I use it often on the FireDogLake facebook page for example (so trust me, I feel your pain lol), and get a pretty decent amount of support, and 'Likes', surprisingly enough. I do often start with things that appeal to them and go from there while staying consistent and pointing out the violence, impracticality and immorality of those who support progressive statist policies.

YouTube - Thank you for Smoking - Ice Cream Debate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW87GRmunMY))

[Vessol]

Nice well written topic, BuddyRey.

It's interesting to note that most people I talk to online outside of these forums are mostly Leftists. I used to debate many of them quite often and intently. However over time as they ask the same questions over and over again and just use a vague concept of the social contract in order to defend themselves, I've gotten to the point where I don't really care anymore.

Those I talk to in person are mostly conservative. I'm less confrontational in person, so more often I try to find common ground and expand from there. At my last job though I found the coolest libertarian old man who loved Ron Paul. I don't really have much of an opinion on gay marriage or abortion, but I have to be careful with my anti-war rhetoric as many people automatically take it as being anti-soldier.

[Stary Hickory]

I'm too busy getting frustrated with "conservatives" to notice the "liberals" much.

It's like the liberals are doing exactly what you'd expect, but the "conservatives" should know better. That's frustrating.

I used to post, not so much these days, in a neocon/conservative site. Trying to get them to come around on the Fed and the wars. Some of them are basically bleeping retarded. They don't think things through...they don't want to. It's almost as if they are cheering for a sports team rather than a political ideology.

You have the same types of the left, ignorant, and who do not want to bother to put the time and energy into thought or self discovery. It's important to point out that EVERYONE means well neocon and hardcore liberal alike. They just do not realize how destructive their proposals are.

What is unforgivable is the willingness of these types to force their twisted and ignorant views on others even if that means they threaten to kill them to make them submit.

[BuddyRey]

Wow. Some great responses here! Thanks all, for your tips and encouragement.

When I originally wrote this rant, Obama was a month away from inauguration and ever so many people saw him as a political golden child who could do no wrong. It's almost difficult to contextualize this fully, even for me, since it was long before any stirrings of a "healthcare mandate", the executive "right" to assassinate U.S. citizens, or any of the myriad ill-founded debacles of this administration. For me, at the time, it felt quite like the well-meaning people with whom I had spent eight years working toward civil liberties and non-intervention were unwittingly stepping out of the frying pan and into the fire. I still feel that way, but it does seem to be getting better.

Many who once supported Obama feel immensely betrayed by his equivocations on foreign policy, the drug war, and civil liberties, to the point where they're finally considering getting off the DNC plantation and lending their support to third-party or alternative candidates. The unmistakable feeling of mass awakening engulfs the entire political scene right now, both on the so-called left and the so-called right. Here's hoping that this feeling continues long enough for people to realize the true nature of politics and government as a shell game set up from the start to beguile and bamboozle so many innocent people out of their money and freedom. Then and only then will the American people want or even deserve leaders like Ron Paul.

[nobody's_hero]

I used to post, not so much these days, in a neocon/conservative site. Trying to get them to come around on the Fed and the wars. Some of them are basically bleeping retarded. They don't think things through...they don't want to. It's almost as if they are cheering for a sports team rather than a political ideology.

You have the same types of the left, ignorant, and who do not want to bother to put the time and energy into thought or self discovery. It's important to point out that EVERYONE means well neocon and hardcore liberal alike. They just do not realize how destructive their proposals are.

What is unforgivable is the willingness of these types to force their twisted and ignorant views on others even if that means they threaten to kill them to make them submit.

Exactly. I see republicans now who want to send folks back to D.C. who have the EXACT SAME STANCE on the war as the Bush administration "republicans" (and most of them are leftovers from 2000-2008). I'm like, "Hey dumb***es, you all lost an election last time because of this war. Wanna try something different this time around?"

Both sides keep trying the same sh** over and over again expecting something different to happen and they're ripping the country to pieces.

[TNforPaul45]

Hey I just had a discussion with an Obama liberal supporter, life long Dem, that is a full supporter of the war in Afghanistan, ex- mil and Patriot Missile tech, last week. Really.
Just goes to show that no one fits neatly into a box.
Find commonality then move to other issues or just plant the seed and move on.

No, they all fit very neatly into one specific box:Federalists!

[Stary Hickory]

Exactly. I see republicans now who want to send folks back to D.C. who have the EXACT SAME STANCE on the war as the Bush administration "republicans" (and most of them are leftovers from 2000-2008). I'm like, "Hey dumb***es, you all lost an election last time because of this war. Wanna try something different this time around?"

Both sides keep trying the same sh** over and over again expecting something different to happen and they're ripping the country to pieces.

I agree but I do think we are getting better folks in from the GOP. The GOP is douchebag organization in a lot of ways. They know the war(Iraq really) cost them big and yet they still refuse to come out outright and denounce it. Had they to do it over again they would NEVER had gone into Iraq. They won't really admit this but this is how it is.

Commentators like Hannity know the Iraq war was stupid..but since he was a cheerleader for the Iraq war and Bush for so long, psychologically he cannot admit that he was wrong. This is the same mentality that is prevalent in the GOP. To the point we have people that are more moderate on the wars yet they don't want to say they are...it might piss off the GOP establishment, and then they don't really want to say they are 100% for the wars.

IMO the neocons have been beaten back and broken for a time being and I never intend to let them forget how ridiculous and stupid the wars are(especially Iraq). I never want to see ignorant neocons running any kind of agenda again. Just like I never want to see leftist socialist/statist running the agenda again.