The Dems had a debate tonight in Miami in SPANISH

[wgadget]

I personally think this will hurt them with the general populace. Thoughts?

[SWATH]

Yes it will hurt them because they are pandering to Latinos, and it gives off the impression that they are concerned with what Mexico thinks about our election.

[derdy]

Wait, they were speaking Spanish or this was translated? lol I didn't know we had that many bi-lingual Representatives :p

[wgadget]

Score one for the Republicans.

:D

[richard1984]

HAHAHA!!!!! Now that's funny. :rolleyes:

[dmitchell]

I don't like this. Actually, I am not bothered by this specifically, but I am bothered in general by pandering to ethnic groups and various ethnic groups lobbying the government. It pits people against each other in competition for government loot; it is terribly divisive, and bad for America.

[wgadget]

Yeah, especially since one needs to be proficient in English to become a citizen.

And surely they're pandering to citizens, right?;)

[LizF]

For more info/background:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/09/AR2007090902033_pf.html
(link also posted here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=17072 )

[Tsoman]

I see no problem here.

[cjhowe]

Speak two languages and you're bilingual. Speak one and you must be an American.

[wgadget]

I think the whole thing is gonna piss off a substantial number of Democrats. At least I hope so.

[Phil M]

If all the candidates were there for the right reasons (i.e., trying to engage Latino citizens in politics), I would be fine with this, but we know why they did it.

[Tuck]

I don't think it will change any democrats minds, the dems have to do a lot of pandering for the afl/cio, gays, naacp, aarp, etc.

[wgadget]

Drudge just said that the Republicans don't want anything to do with Univision's Spanish debates.

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,,

[Paulitician]

I can see why. The format would be annoying as hell to deal with.

[ChooseLiberty]

LOL. So basically it was no different than any other debate except Richardson got to pretend he's one of La Raza.


dennis and bill richardson speak spanish, but it was translated to spanish on univision.

[McDermit]

Meh.

Let them dub it on the Spanish channel. No need for a special debate. We don't have a special debate for blacks or asians or indians, why do this?

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,

[ctb619]

español es un lenguaje hermoso.....yo no tengo ningun problema con la decisión de estos candidatos

[inibo]

Take this however you want, but my newly Republican Maryland voter registration card came with two copies. One in English and one in Spanish.

[ThePieSwindler]

The spanish is not what i see being wrong with this. I am not a xenophobe nor a uh linguiphobe or whatever. However, it is the direct pandering that bothers me. Pander of any form is what i hate. Spanish is a language, sure, but speaking spanish is just vessel for a more potent form of communcation and coercion - flattery and favoratist promises to specific groups. Just saying "oh they are speaking spansih this is so bad" or "come on its culturally diverse and good to be bilingual" both miss the forest for the trees. THe real issue is the group-think mentality that continues to be perpetuated through this sort of behavior.

[Tsoman]

then you are in the wrong country

the land you speak of... would that be the land of the free, by any chance?


and the fact that potential presidents feel the need to debate in any other language upsets me , regardless of history . sorry if that offends you but the majority of this country feels that way .

you seem to be the offended one.

You are also the one who took a 5-word sentence written by a fellow American and determined that he was in the wrong country.

Nice one, lol. Mature, too.

[wgadget]

They should be able to understand English if they're citizens. What's the deal?

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,,

[aravoth]

The official language of US government policy, and military command is english. Period. It willl never be spanish, french, german, or swahili. It will always be english.

[ctb619]

If you can't distinguish between "aloud" and "allowed," you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

;) just joking

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[ctb619]

I like Ron Paul.

[Tsoman]

this is the first i have ever heard of this . free or not , do you want to rewrite how our elections are decided ? if you cant understand English you should not be aloud to vote or have citizenship .

were the elections ever done in German when there was a bunch of immigrants from there , how about Italian , French maybe ? no , Spanish should be no exception ...

Presidential candidates are private citizens. TV channels are privately owned. The issue for me is freedom. What is your issue?

Nobody is talking about printing a bilingual version of the constitution here, and having school children pick their language of instruction.

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[cjhowe]

then why is there need to translate the debate to spanish ?

That saying is supposed to be an insult. Language is a part of culture. Culture is not necessarily translatable. Hyperbole, sarcasm and metaphor don't translate. Sure the citizen may speak English fluently as a second language, but the metaphors being used are lost in translation. You're suggesting to alienate a large number of your fellow Americans just to appease your singular view of the world. Because YOU are afraid of learning about the lives of the people around you.

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,

[cjhowe]

fine , explain why for the last few hundred yrs this has not been done in the relative immigrant language ?

Same reason you don't want it done now. Ignorance.

[rockfree33]

If you can vote and you don't know how to speak English, what are you doing participating in elections?

[cjhowe]

If you can vote and you don't know how to speak English, what are you doing participating in elections?

Fundamentally, why should language prevent you from representation in your government?

[nexalacer]

You know, you guys are showing the ignorance that leads to the joke:

What do you Call someone who speaks two languages?
Bilingual.
What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
Trilingual
What do you call someone who speaks one language?
American.

Until you learn another language to be proficient enough in it to get citizenship, you have no idea how difficult it is to understand high-speed television speech. I am currently living in Japan, I speak Japanese enough to get by with the locals, and in a few years I could be proficient enough to become a citizen, if that were possible. However, assuming I became a citizen of Japan and began participating in Japanese politics, it would be extremely helpful to have it translated into English, just to make sure I wasn't making any mistakes.

If I'm going to be an educated voter, I want to be very sure I'm clear on every issue. And it's easier to be clear in your native language. I'm not advocating for having special debates in every language, however, we have had and are going to have debates that the cover the black communities issues, so why not do the same for the hispanic/latino community, since they are the second largest group? And if targeting people who may be native Spanish-speakers, it helps to provide the broadcast in Spanish.

Now, in the future, we should strive to start looking at issues as AMERICANS instead of as racial groups, however, not all of the country is ready for a step like that just yet.

So yeah, my main point is, efficiency in a language required for citizenship and day-to-day life is not the same as being able to understand all the nuances of political rhetoric. How does providing Spanish translation hurt? Only citizens can vote, so if they can understand better in Spanish, does that not make them better suited to vote since they will be more educated on the issues?

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Paulitician]

nexalacer is right. Though my parents are both US citizens, they're way more comfortable watching news and such in their native tongue. I have no problem with translations in Spanish, French, German or whatever. Personally I would hate having to deal with a debate where the questions were asked in a foreign language and had to be translated for me. And I see these debates as a way to pander to a specific base, very collectivist in nature.

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,,

[Paulitician]

I don't think I quite understand you. I don't propose they be translated, just that I don't see a problem with them being translated (in the form of subtitles I mean). It's useful for some people, that's all I'm saying. Futhermore, I personally don't support the premise behind such debates, nor do I appreciate the format. I'm not sure how I'm being politically correct, but whatever.

[cjhowe]

then why was it only broadcast in Spanish , why not the others ? there are millions of others that need it according to you . more political correctness that will never end , makes me sick .

Are you serious? Just like Fox News hosted the debate on Wednesday, this debate was hosted by Univision. Univision is a spanish lanuage media company. Why would they broadcast in any other language?

[nexalacer]

then why was it only broadcast in Spanish , why not the others ? there are millions of others that need it according to you . more political correctness that will never end , makes me sick .

Dude, push aside the hate, it's clouding your vision. It's broadcast right now in Spanish because the largest group of first-generation immigrants is Spanish-speaking. Of course, there should be translation in as many languages as the market demands, but right now, only Spanish is big enough to demand it.

It's not about political correctness. It's about giving people who don't speak English as a native language a chance to understand the nuances of politics in their own language. As long as there are immigrants in this country, we should not be upset if they are offered a translation of American media. We should be upset if it's paid for by tax-payer dollars, but that goes for anything.

I will reiterate, in case YOU have a problem with the English language: Proficiency in day-to-day life (the proficiency required to become a citizen) is NOT the same as being able to understand the nuances of political rhetoric. Children of immigrants who are born in America will learn English, more than likely. However, their parents will never have the same level of competence as a native speaker, unless they are gifted with language ability. To keep them out of political debates when they are citizens just because they are not politically proficient in English is both ignorant and xenophobic.

[cjhowe]

There is a paradigm difference in the English-only debate. When those who are pro English only encounter someone who speaks Spanish, they say to themselves "I wish they spoke English so I could understand them". When someone against English only laws encounters someone who speaks Spanish, they say to themselves "I wish I spoke Spanish, so they could understand me." Given those two ways of looking at the world, which way do you think you personally benefit more from?

[r3volution]

,,,,,,,,,

[R_Harris]

The debate in Spanish poses a number of problems and issues.

First, read Pat Buchanan's latest editorial, "Buenos noches, Americanos". He points out that the Mexicans have an attitude about the US that goes back 150+ years. There are a lot of Mexicans who do believe the the southwest US is theirs, and through continued illegal immigration and other means, will bid their time until they are in a position to take it back.

Second, I confirm the above in what I have seen in my travels in Colorado, New Mexico, and Texas over this past summer. Frankly, these people do NOT want to become assimilated into US society and even display an outright disdain for it. While traveling from Dallas to Arlington three weeks ago, we turned from I-30 to Cockrell Hill south to avoid a major traffic jam on I-30. We went to Davis Road (Hwy 180) and preceded west, going from NW Duncanville into east Grand Prairie.

Not having lived in Dallas since the late 80s, I was stunned at what I saw. There was not a business along Davis Road from Cockrell Hill until West Grand Prairie where the signage was not all in Spanish. Mexican flags were everywhere. I told my wife that we must have made a wrong turn and wound up in Juarez.

If we had experienced a car or personal problem, we would have been in big trouble, perhaps even fearing for our safety.

For me, THIS is the big issue with illegal immigration. I agree with Buchanan, it has amounted to an informal invasion, and local and national politicians have cared less for the last 20 years. The Mexicans see this and have taken full advantage of the situation.

If things aren't changed NOW, I could see New Mexico, Arizona, and South Texas essentially becoming a part of Mexico in 20-30 years - and the breakup of the "United States" will have come to pass.

[Tsoman]

If you've ever listened to spanish language radio programs, you would have heard multiple advertisements for schools and products that teach english. The reasons given are to be able to participate fully in American life, and get the most out of living in the USA. I would say there is a strong desire to learn English, but sometimes it just doesn't happen for everybody. Or it just takes time.

I suspect that the issue for a lot of people is not the debate in spanish per se, but a growing fear that the USA's identity is changing, or is under threat. This is completely understandable. This is one of my fears about illegal immigration -- that its existence promotes irrational thinking and a collective mentality on both sides.

The ideal strategy would be for the government to end illegal immigration. Hopefully then, fear would be taken out of the equation and people would chill. Maybe we could accept Spanish as a language and not as an invasion, order our burritos en espa�ñol for kicks, and enjoy some guacamole from time to time.

[Bloody Holly]

If you've ever listened to spanish language radio programs, you would have heard multiple advertisements for schools and products that teach english. The reasons given are to be able to participate fully in American life, and get the most out of living in the USA. I would say there is a strong desire to learn English, but sometimes it just doesn't happen for everybody. Or it just takes time.

I suspect that the issue for a lot of people is not the debate in spanish per se, but a growing fear that the USA's identity is changing, or is under threat. This is completely understandable. This is one of my fears about illegal immigration -- that its existence promotes irrational thinking and a collective mentality on both sides.

The ideal strategy would be for the government to end illegal immigration. Hopefully then, fear would be taken out of the equation and people would chill. Maybe we could accept Spanish as a language and not as an invasion, order our burritos en espa�ñol for kicks, and enjoy some guacamole from time to time.

Sorry but it sounds as if you are one-sided on the issue it makes me also wonder if you also buy the theory that they take jobs nobody wants too. It's a bunch of bullshit. How would you like some rich guy telling you what job you will not do and they overhype one job that you know 20+ million people are not doing.

Sorry but this is a slap in the face to people trying to gain citizenship and having to take a backseat due to favortism to coroporate slavery. That's what matters the most right now. Greed and door mats.

Some people have a fantasy that the borders would be erased. To cater to who though? Would Mexico allow America's poor in and would they treat them just as well as we do? HELL NO. That is why we have borders. Our ideas are different. Their ideas are different.

If you erase the border, there is going to be war maybe that's what some people want. What I don't get is the anti-white attitude yet their president is half spanish and half irish, Vicente Fox. Speak spanish, we don't like english. We don't like white people, ummm spanish is a white language.

There are people like that too with that piss poor attitude but from what I've seen, it comes from the younger generation who don't even remember Mexico and their parents are nicer maybe it's because they remember.

Citizens wouldn't have such a big problem if the govt did what they were supposed to do, if the president would quit reciting "jobs you wont do" most likely something he heard from a racist muppet and if people would quit pretending like they have it so freaking hard because people don't feel like spanish should be imposed on them for someone else's doing of illegally crossing the border which is pourous anyway.

The only thing I hear thrown back is OMG, racist racist but I never hear China being called racists for the great wall of china. There is no compromise with erasing the border.


What would happen with rules? Mexico will be all like, okay we are one land together united, I think you should obey our rules. America would say hell no, we treat our people better, you obey our rules. It would become one person's land.

I know there is a fantasy that it would all be under Mexico's ruling but sorry guys, I like America minus neo-con ruling.

[Tsoman]

Sorry but it sounds as if you are one-sided on the issue it makes me also wonder if you also buy the theory that they take jobs nobody wants too. It's a bunch of bullshit. How would you like some rich guy telling you what job you will not do and they overhype one job that you know 20+ million people are not doing.

Sorry but this is a slap in the face to people trying to gain citizenship and having to take a backseat due to favortism to coroporate slavery. That's what matters the most right now. Greed and door mats.

Some people have a fantasy that the borders would be erased. To cater to who though? Would Mexico allow America's poor in and would they treat them just as well as we do? HELL NO. That is why we have borders. Our ideas are different. Their ideas are different.

If you erase the border, there is going to be war maybe that's what some people want. What I don't get is the anti-white attitude yet their president is half spanish and half irish, Vicente Fox. Speak spanish, we don't like english. We don't like white people, ummm spanish is a white language.

There are people like that too with that piss poor attitude but from what I've seen, it comes from the younger generation who don't even remember Mexico and their parents are nicer maybe it's because they remember.

Citizens wouldn't have such a big problem if the govt did what they were supposed to do, if the president would quit reciting "jobs you wont do" most likely something he heard from a racist muppet and if people would quit pretending like they have it so freaking hard because people don't feel like spanish should be imposed on them for someone else's doing of illegally crossing the border which is pourous anyway.

The only thing I hear thrown back is OMG, racist racist but I never hear China being called racists for the great wall of china. There is no compromise with erasing the border.


What would happen with rules? Mexico will be all like, okay we are one land together united, I think you should obey our rules. America would say hell no, we treat our people better, you obey our rules. It would become one person's land.

I know there is a fantasy that it would all be under Mexico's ruling but sorry guys, I like America minus neo-con ruling.

You are completely misunderstanding me. I clearly wrote


The ideal strategy would be for the government to end illegal immigration

Why do you assume that I am for amnesty -- I'm not. Re-read what I said and find the part where I think that illegal immigration is good for our economy, and we should erase the border. You can't, because I don't believe it and I didn't say it.

I was simply stating that we should not lump illegal immigration and the use of the Spanish language into the same category. Illegal immigration is a problem that this country faces. Spanish is simply a language.

[Bloody Holly]

You are completely misunderstanding me. I clearly wrote



Why do you assume that I am for amnesty -- I'm not. Re-read what I said and find the part where I think that illegal immigration is good for our economy, and we should erase the border. You can't, because I don't believe it and I didn't say it.

I was simply stating that we should not lump illegal immigration and the use of the Spanish language into the same category. Illegal immigration is a problem that this country faces. Spanish is simply a language.

not all of that rant was directed towards you.

[cjhowe]

Sorry but it sounds as if you are one-sided on the issue it makes me also wonder if you also buy the theory that they take jobs nobody wants too. It's a bunch of bullshit. How would you like some rich guy telling you what job you will not do and they overhype one job that you know 20+ million people are not doing.

Sorry but this is a slap in the face to people trying to gain citizenship and having to take a backseat due to favortism to coroporate slavery. That's what matters the most right now. Greed and door mats.

Some people have a fantasy that the borders would be erased. To cater to who though? Would Mexico allow America's poor in and would they treat them just as well as we do? HELL NO. That is why we have borders. Our ideas are different. Their ideas are different.

If you erase the border, there is going to be war maybe that's what some people want. What I don't get is the anti-white attitude yet their president is half spanish and half irish, Vicente Fox. Speak spanish, we don't like english. We don't like white people, ummm spanish is a white language.

There are people like that too with that piss poor attitude but from what I've seen, it comes from the younger generation who don't even remember Mexico and their parents are nicer maybe it's because they remember.

Citizens wouldn't have such a big problem if the govt did what they were supposed to do, if the president would quit reciting "jobs you wont do" most likely something he heard from a racist muppet and if people would quit pretending like they have it so freaking hard because people don't feel like spanish should be imposed on them for someone else's doing of illegally crossing the border which is pourous anyway.

The only thing I hear thrown back is OMG, racist racist but I never hear China being called racists for the great wall of china. There is no compromise with erasing the border.


What would happen with rules? Mexico will be all like, okay we are one land together united, I think you should obey our rules. America would say hell no, we treat our people better, you obey our rules. It would become one person's land.

I know there is a fantasy that it would all be under Mexico's ruling but sorry guys, I like America minus neo-con ruling.

Felipe Calderón is the current president of Mexico. The Great Wall of China does not define its borders, at least currently. Mexicans are taking the jobs that Americans won't do at that price point. I'd love to debate you on this, but it's not the topic of the thread. The thread is about broadcasting a debate in Spanish. Nothing at all to do with illegal immigration.

[Bloody Holly]

Felipe Calderón is the current president of Mexico. The Great Wall of China does not define its borders, at least currently. Mexicans are taking the jobs that Americans won't do at that price point. I'd love to debate you on this, but it's not the topic of the thread. The thread is about broadcasting a debate in Spanish. Nothing at all to do with illegal immigration.

Yeah at first it was "Mexicans do the jobs Americans won't do" then once people were called on that bullshit then they added "for that price" and then I hear people calling americans too lazy to do those jobs in some arrogant fashion. It does have to do with illegal immigration underneath it all due to the fact that politicians are trying to tap into voters that speak only spanish and since Bush has been making promises for Amnesty. It's about being two-faced and how politicians are telling American citizens one thing and then turning around in spanish and trying to cater and appeal to spanish speakers to get their votes with the intent in mind to gather spanish speaking only votes.

People think illegal immigrants can't vote. It's not true. Why else would Obama really want to keep it so that you don't have to show ID at voting polls? He claims it's because it keeps the poor disenfranchised but that is a crock considering most poor people I know that are in this country legally have ID's.

When it comes to politics, you can pretend it's just for those who know english and spanish but to appeal by speaking in their native tongue because it's what is written on paper to look good but you always have to dig into the intent to find the truth. If you put two and two together, judging by all the events occuring over the years, then you are using common sense to gather your intelligence and you can rely more on common sense than words that come out of politicians and the media's mouth.

What I would like to know is, what do you like about Ron Paul because you seem to come across as someone who doesn't care about citizens of America judging from your views on jobs that americans won't do....with a twist of "for less".

It's getting old. Learn to share. The govt may be a catering service for your special interests but citizens are not and we should all have the right to work in the same enviroments at a liveable wage. Even though not all states are practicing this the right way, there's always room to improve but when bosses are hiring only people that will work for less and firing their American employees then some rich asshole wags his finger and tells you that you didn't want the job anyway, there is a problem.

If it were the other way around, you wouldn't be happy about it. It needs to be addressed and fixed.

[nexalacer]

Bloody Holly, how many languages do you speak? If you answered one, you are COMPLETELY disqualified from being able to state (and fuck you, high school Spanish or French don't count):


When it comes to politics, you can pretend it's just for those who know english and spanish but to appeal by speaking in their native tongue because it's what is written on paper to look good but you always have to dig into the intent to find the truth. If you put two and two together, judging by all the events occuring over the years, then you are using common sense to gather your intelligence and you can rely more on common sense than words that come out of politicians and the media's mouth.

My statements about native language don't come from any fucking media source or politicians. They come from majoring in language at University and using a second language for a year in a foreign country. I will repeat, AGAIN, for those of you that have problems with English as your FIRST language:

The nuances of political rhetoric are difficult for native speakers to always understand, let alone people listening in a non-native tongue. If you want a politically educated public and you have first generation legal immigrants who don't speak English as a native language, it is in your best interests to offer them translations.

[Bloody Holly]

Bloody Holly, how many languages do you speak? If you answered one, you are COMPLETELY disqualified from being able to state (and fuck you, high school Spanish or French don't count):


My statements about native language don't come from any fucking media source or politicians. They come from majoring in language at University and using a second language for a year in a foreign country. I will repeat, AGAIN, for those of you that have problems with English as your FIRST language:

The nuances of political rhetoric are difficult for native speakers to always understand, let alone people listening in a non-native tongue. If you want a politically educated public and you have first generation legal immigrants who don't speak English as a native language, it is in your best interests to offer them translations.

Do you vote? If not then you are completely disqualified from this forum. Also I can take that same elite attitude about english. The funny thing is, I've heard of mexicans being called traitors for teaching someone spanish. WTF is up with that?

Don't you tell me what I can and cannot say you politically correct corrections officer. If the shoe were on the other foot, would Mexico accept our poor and be as willing to give the poor jobs, assistance and so forth?

Also, it's very basic. In my mind, you treat me with respect you get it back. I'm not a door mat. Are you? I have the most problems with how politicians have the nerve to sit up on their thrones without money worries and dares tell their own citizens what jobs they won't do when those rich elite pricks have no clue what the people do. They're too busy playing golf and when it comes down to saving their own citizen's asses, it takes a week and they get realllly pissed off if they know they screwed up so they try to fix it with money. Then the drive-by media comes in and overhypes one person's spending to make it seem like every last person did the same thing.

No, I'm not a happy camper. We keep having new branches added onto a tree that is being slowly chopped down, wasting money keeping these people with jobs that they don't do well. Why?

When you are ready to learn how to share and understand that not everything belongs to just you and not everything belongs to just me, I'm ready to be nicer to you. Until then I'm going to be a bitch. You are an individual. Underneath it all, in every group, everyone is an individual.

[Givemelibertyor.....]

They've just cleared the way for same day voter registration here in NC. From what I gather, you won't need a drivers license or a social security number. Just a utility bill with your name and address to qualify.Someone correct me if I'm wrong....

Looks like this voter registration scam and the Spanish language broadcast are working hand in hand to fix the 2008 election.

[cjhowe]

Yeah at first it was "Mexicans do the jobs Americans won't do" then once people were called on that bullshit then they added "for that price" and then I hear people calling americans too lazy to do those jobs in some arrogant fashion. It does have to do with illegal immigration underneath it all due to the fact that politicians are trying to tap into voters that speak only spanish and since Bush has been making promises for Amnesty. It's about being two-faced and how politicians are telling American citizens one thing and then turning around in spanish and trying to cater and appeal to spanish speakers to get their votes with the intent in mind to gather spanish speaking only votes.

People think illegal immigrants can't vote. It's not true. Why else would Obama really want to keep it so that you don't have to show ID at voting polls? He claims it's because it keeps the poor disenfranchised but that is a crock considering most poor people I know that are in this country legally have ID's.

Frankly the federal government should have nothing to do with determining what conditions must be met to vote in a state's election. Obama should have no longer concerned himself with voter identification issues when he stopped representing Illinoians at the state level. The requirement of the bill in question (HR 4844) would indeed disenfranchise voters, especially in states that allow same day registration, because it would require one to produce copy of a a passport or birth certificate. Nearly 1 in 10 people who have not completed high school, do not have a passport or birth certificate available. Since legal aliens can also apply for a driver's license and many states do not denote citizenship on the license, a drivers license could not be used as proof of citizenship.


When it comes to politics, you can pretend it's just for those who know english and spanish but to appeal by speaking in their native tongue because it's what is written on paper to look good but you always have to dig into the intent to find the truth. If you put two and two together, judging by all the events occuring over the years, then you are using common sense to gather your intelligence and you can rely more on common sense than words that come out of politicians and the media's mouth.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make, so I'll not address this unless you'd like to clarify.


What I would like to know is, what do you like about Ron Paul because you seem to come across as someone who doesn't care about citizens of America judging from your views on jobs that americans won't do....with a twist of "for less".

I certainly care about others in the world. However, one's alien status has no bearing on how much I care. "For less" is not a twist. That's what the claim has always been.


It's getting old. Learn to share. The govt may be a catering service for your special interests but citizens are not and we should all have the right to work in the same enviroments at a liveable wage. Even though not all states are practicing this the right way, there's always room to improve but when bosses are hiring only people that will work for less and firing their American employees then some rich asshole wags his finger and tells you that you didn't want the job anyway, there is a problem.

If it were the other way around, you wouldn't be happy about it. It needs to be addressed and fixed.

How one contracts their labor is none of my concern. A liveable wage is whatever wage you're willing to take for your labor. I find it extremely difficult to believe that an English speaking employer would prefer a Spanish speaking employee over you provided the wage was equivalent and the work ethic and skill set were comparable.

Again, if you want to debate immigration issues, we can start another thread.

[Bloody Holly]

They've just cleared the way for same day voter registration here in NC. From what I gather, you won't need a drivers license or a social security number. Just a utility bill with your name and address to qualify.Someone correct me if I'm wrong....

Looks like this voter registration scam and the Spanish language broadcast are working hand in hand to fix the 2008 election.

You are not alone in your assesment. It's foul.

For the people in this thread who can't grasp this realization like

nexalacer
cjhowe.

I have just a few questions. Are you here in support of Ron Paul and if so what do you like about Ron Paul?

[cjhowe]

You are not alone in your assesment. It's foul.

For the people in this thread who can't grasp this realization like

nexalacer
cjhowe.

I have just a few questions. Are you here in support of Ron Paul and if so what do you like about Ron Paul?

To answer your questions: 1) yes, very much so. This thread isn't about anything to support/not be in support of RP, it's about language. 2) I like very much RP's goals to increase personal freedom and in turn, personal responsibility. I can agree with RP on the immigration issue with regard to rule of law, however I find it difficult to swallow that maximum personal freedoms come from living in a walled garden.

[angelatc]

dennis and bill richardson speak spanish, but it was translated to spanish on univision.

This made me think of the movie "Airplane!" and the flight attendent who spoke jive.

[Bloody Holly]

To answer your questions: 1) yes, very much so. This thread isn't about anything to support/not be in support of RP, it's about language. 2) I like very much RP's goals to increase personal freedom and in turn, personal responsibility. I can agree with RP on the immigration issue with regard to rule of law, however I find it difficult to swallow that maximum personal freedoms come from living in a walled garden.

1. Okay cool :) and often threads do trail off.

2. First sentence I agree but about the walled garden...

Why do you think we should have no "walled" garden? For who? Who would be of most benefit to having no walled garden? Would people practice a fair compromise if there were no walled garden? Could we trust our politicians and the politicians next door to not have a war over conflicts of interests?

Do you want a war? Who's laws do you prefer? Wouldn't that water down our immigration policies and would it actually be better or worse if we went that route? Would Mexico in return water down it's own immigration policies to allow an influx of americans into their system?

[cjhowe]

1. Okay cool :) and often threads do trail off.

2. First sentence I agree but about the walled garden...

Why do you think we should have no "walled" garden? For who? Who would be of most benefit to having no walled garden? Would people practice a fair compromise if there were no walled garden? Could we trust our politicians and the politicians next door to not have a war over conflicts of interests?

Do you want a war? Who's laws do you prefer? Wouldn't that water down our immigration policies and would it actually be better or worse if we went that route? Would Mexico in return water down it's own immigration policies to allow an influx of americans into their system?

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by "walled garden". When you take the view that we have to keep all of our goodness inside America and keep out everyone else (or limit the flow), you're creating a walled garden. Everything on the inside looks so beautiful and everything on the outside turns into a desolate wasteland. It can be deceiving that the walled garden has kept all of the wasteland out, but that's not the truth of the matter. The wall has kept the goodness from reproducing in the surrounding area.

I constantly hear the complaint that the Mexicans should take care of their own country, get rid of all of the corruption over there and they'd be better off. Our walled garden prevents the free flow of ideas and culture. We're so worried about the Mexican culture coming in, that we forget that our American culture isn't free to go out.

[Bloody Holly]

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by "walled garden". When you take the view that we have to keep all of our goodness inside America and keep out everyone else (or limit the flow), you're creating a walled garden. Everything on the inside looks so beautiful and everything on the outside turns into a desolate wasteland. It can be deceiving that the walled garden has kept all of the wasteland out, but that's not the truth of the matter. The wall has kept the goodness from reproducing in the surrounding area.

I constantly hear the complaint that the Mexicans should take care of their own country, get rid of all of the corruption over there and they'd be better off. Our walled garden prevents the free flow of ideas and culture. We're so worried about the Mexican culture coming in, that we forget that our American culture isn't free to go out.

Alright, here's my view about what you said

I constantly hear the complaint that the Mexicans should take care of their own country, get rid of all of the corruption over there and they'd be better off. Our walled garden prevents the free flow of ideas and culture.

First sentence. I'd ask people that say that, well what about your govt that is turning corrupt. What have you done about it? Now think about what options Mexican citizens have that don't have it as good as American citizens.

Second sentence. Does Mexico really want a free flow though? Right now I get the impression that it's not the case at all. People learn from other cultures and take on their ideas even overseas. Now think about the natural border of the ocean seperating the continents. Why? Because they want to that is why. We have so many means of communication at the palm of our hands. Just because we have walls does not mean ideas cannot be shared. Culture can be shared. It's not like you cannot come into America at all. You can.

K. Onto this:

Everything on the inside looks so beautiful and everything on the outside turns into a desolate wasteland. It can be deceiving that the walled garden has kept all of the wasteland out, but that's not the truth of the matter.

First, I like the way you express your thoughts. The imagery that comes along with it. Second, America should not be responsible for everyone else's country. Sometimes we do good things for others, sometimes we do mean things to others when the wrong officials are elected that stand for greed and corruption. People often give pats on the back to those who donate money to Africa but what people don't know is that even Africa has corrupt forces keeping their people down. Why do they keep their own people down? They get money from keeping them poor from other countries that want to help them. It doesn't go directly to the starving. it goes to charities, the govt. Some charities do help, while others don't or do it in exchange for their own agenda. Politicians hand out food only to those who say they will vote them into office. Even though money is going to Africa with the intent of helping out the starving poor in mind, it doesn't do much good if people are exploiting that to get more money and pocketing it for themselves.

As far as my objections to erasing the borders and an influx of illegal immigrants, it stems from how it is being handled and how there is an exclusion with jobs now that aren't hiring diverse workers and this is leaving people out of jobs and no compensation and no compromise. To me that needs to be changed. It should never ever be just about one group and leaving out everyone else. When people take on this attitude that it's all about "their people" and not about everyone's rights then I tend to think of it as bullying or arrogance. Both of which make me want to puke.