A eulogy for the freedom movement

[tangent4ronpaul]

A eulogy for the freedom movement

I say eulogy, because both the C4L and the grassroots are on life support and the C4L is dragging the grassroots into the grave with it.

It's taken a while and some good threads here for this to really jell – but lets look at the situation:

In the beginning of this movement really taking off we had a very reluctant candidate who didn't expect to win. (first part of '07) He had no idea of how much support or funds he would raise. As such, he hired a staff to promote an educational campaign with the full expectation of not getting the nomination, but hoped to raise some awareness. Most of these people were completely incompetent as to actually getting him elected. Time and again, they proved this to be true. So the grassroots took charge. The real turning point was Dr. Paul's speech at the Phoenix airport where he realized his campaign staff was worthless and announced that “YOU ARE THE CAMPAIGN!” - meaning the grassroots.

We picked that up and ran with it – it became our rallying cry!

It was this “outside the box” thinking and actions that made us a major movement. Without it, we would have never had the level of support we did.

On the other side of the coin, there are staffers like Debbie Hopper (who I think highly of) that are pounding a old school campaign style of precinct level organizing on up. That is not without it's attractions. Keep in mind that Obama got just over a sliver of the popular vote but won 66% of the electoral college due to a corrupt system. In 2000 Gore won the popular vote, but Bush got elected for the same reason. Some old school politics is needed here. The grassroots is simply not that well organized.

At the same time, without the wild and free grassroots style of doing things – we would have never become a movement. A compromise somewhere in the middle is needed.

The PCC was a complete disappointment – the only good points were the 2 counter debates, but that is it! The CFL has been a COMPLETE disappointment! Same leadership – big surprise...

Now the CFL has become the enemy. They are not open, they are total control freaks and that quite frankly turns most RP supporters OFF! They have pushed off the grassroots and tried to make the center of attention themselves. Sorry – that does NOT wash! To many rules, all centered on them – this is NOT grassroots! It alienated people.

We need new leadership. We need more liberal lawyers – those willing to take some risks. We need more integration with the Grassroots and less of a “control freak” attitude!

Either the CFL integrates with the grassroots – or the movement will die. It's that simple.

Right now we have a problem with the meetups – we are automatically expiring members. Also there are many members of past groups that we could reclaim. It will take a concentrated effort to reclaim these people – but it is doable. It will take a lot of manpower.

As to Jeff Frazee – personally I like him. I do not like that if he doesn't want something from you – it is impossible to hear back from him. I started what became “Bands for Ron Paul” and passed it off to Joel Cowthon. Who formed that group. He has MS, so had to give it up when he lost his vision. The first time I bartered the deal and passed it off to DJ-LowD(sp?), who started Ron Paul Radio and did nothing with it due to being to being busy with the Internet radio station. Jeff Frazee tried to grab the group at this time and failed. So noticing that nothing was being done with the group I tried to reclaim it and pass it off to someone else. Again, Jeff Frazee was in there and this time intercepted it. Taking control of the group, he passed it off to his assistant who changed the password and it sat dormant for 7 months while I tried to reclaim it. It was only after he wanted something else from me that I was finally able to get it back... At this point, contacting groups individually – there are 1,800 registered as bands and many more that are bands but not listed that way... resulted in a low response rate – gee – wonder why... It will take at least 20 people working on a daily basis to kick some life back into this project – spreading the freedom message via music. At least we have it back! - wanna volunteer – well PM me!

Then there is “Students for Ron Paul” - and whatever you are calling them now a days. I qualified and signed up – never got a single e-mail from them. Here you have the most attractive and un-alarming people – your perfect door knockers who have time on their hands and energy! - yet you segregate then from the Meetups! - These are the perfect people to put out there! - yet, over many attempts they seem to have been ORDERED NOT TO COOPERATE OR TALK TO US! Time on their hands, athletic, and energetic...

Are you TRYING to sabotage the movement???? - It sure seems that way. I look around my Meetup and I see older folks working 1-2 jobs. Single parents and ppl in wheel chairs. Wanna do door to door canvassing? - not a single hand goes up.

Anyway, what will it take for you to wake up – do I need to approach Opera or Larry King and spill the dirt on the PCC and C4L???? - I have picked up a LOT of dirt!

I'm one of a handful of NATIONAL LEVEL grassroots organizers – and yes, I have picked up some very embarrassing information along the way. What will it take for you to get with the program?

-t

[LibertyEagle]

If you're wanting for the C4L to see this, perhaps you should post it on their site.

[acptulsa]

I think you're pretty much preaching to the choir at this point.


do I need to approach Opera...

I know it's just a typo--but I really like it! :p

[JS4Pat]

Tangent -

Pretty fair assessment - but would prefer you including a little optimism and solutions in there.

As for the CFL - it is what it is. It is just the nature of those type of organizations. My expectations were VERY low for the CFL and I just look at it as a possible tool to accomplish our goals. I paid for the full membership and hope they do something significant. If not, I will continue moving forward with our own vehicle and strategy in NE Florida.

I outlined a strategy and solicited help from RP Forum members but have not received any feedback yet...

Maybe linking it in this thread will get some traction...
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=170363

As an aside on the CFL - The LOGO HAS TO GO! It is awful. It is not marketable at all.

[lynnf]

I think you're pretty much preaching to the choir at this point.



I know it's just a typo--but I really like it! :p



I call her Okra -- take your pick!

lynn

[Austin]

A eulogy for the freedom movement

I say eulogy, because both the C4L and the grassroots are on life support and the C4L is dragging the grassroots into the grave with it.

It's taken a while and some good threads here for this to really jell – but lets look at the situation:

In the beginning of this movement really taking off we had a very reluctant candidate who didn't expect to win. (first part of '07) He had no idea of how much support or funds he would raise. As such, he hired a staff to promote an educational campaign with the full expectation of not getting the nomination, but hoped to raise some awareness. Most of these people were completely incompetent as to actually getting him elected. Time and again, they proved this to be true. So the grassroots took charge. The real turning point was Dr. Paul's speech at the Phoenix airport where he realized his campaign staff was worthless and announced that “YOU ARE THE CAMPAIGN!” - meaning the grassroots.

We picked that up and ran with it – it became our rallying cry!

It was this “outside the box” thinking and actions that made us a major movement. Without it, we would have never had the level of support we did.

On the other side of the coin, there are staffers like Debbie Hopper (who I think highly of) that are pounding a old school campaign style of precinct level organizing on up. That is not without it's attractions. Keep in mind that Obama got just over a sliver of the popular vote but won 66% of the electoral college due to a corrupt system. In 2000 Gore won the popular vote, but Bush got elected for the same reason. Some old school politics is needed here. The grassroots is simply not that well organized.

At the same time, without the wild and free grassroots style of doing things – we would have never become a movement. A compromise somewhere in the middle is needed.

The PCC was a complete disappointment – the only good points were the 2 counter debates, but that is it! The CFL has been a COMPLETE disappointment! Same leadership – big surprise...

Now the CFL has become the enemy. They are not open, they are total control freaks and that quite frankly turns most RP supporters OFF! They have pushed off the grassroots and tried to make the center of attention themselves. Sorry – that does NOT wash! To many rules, all centered on them – this is NOT grassroots! It alienated people.

We need new leadership. We need more liberal lawyers – those willing to take some risks. We need more integration with the Grassroots and less of a “control freak” attitude!

Either the CFL integrates with the grassroots – or the movement will die. It's that simple.

Right now we have a problem with the meetups – we are automatically expiring members. Also there are many members of past groups that we could reclaim. It will take a concentrated effort to reclaim these people – but it is doable. It will take a lot of manpower.

As to Jeff Frazee – personally I like him. I do not like that if he doesn't want something from you – it is impossible to hear back from him. I started what became “Bands for Ron Paul” and passed it off to Joel Cowthon. Who formed that group. He has MS, so had to give it up when he lost his vision. The first time I bartered the deal and passed it off to DJ-LowD(sp?), who started Ron Paul Radio and did nothing with it due to being to being busy with the Internet radio station. Jeff Frazee tried to grab the group at this time and failed. So noticing that nothing was being done with the group I tried to reclaim it and pass it off to someone else. Again, Jeff Frazee was in there and this time intercepted it. Taking control of the group, he passed it off to his assistant who changed the password and it sat dormant for 7 months while I tried to reclaim it. It was only after he wanted something else from me that I was finally able to get it back... At this point, contacting groups individually – there are 1,800 registered as bands and many more that are bands but not listed that way... resulted in a low response rate – gee – wonder why... It will take at least 20 people working on a daily basis to kick some life back into this project – spreading the freedom message via music. At least we have it back! - wanna volunteer – well PM me!

Then there is “Students for Ron Paul” - and whatever you are calling them now a days. I qualified and signed up – never got a single e-mail from them. Here you have the most attractive and un-alarming people – your perfect door knockers who have time on their hands and energy! - yet you segregate then from the Meetups! - These are the perfect people to put out there! - yet, over many attempts they seem to have been ORDERED NOT TO COOPERATE OR TALK TO US! Time on their hands, athletic, and energetic...

Are you TRYING to sabotage the movement???? - It sure seems that way. I look around my Meetup and I see older folks working 1-2 jobs. Single parents and ppl in wheel chairs. Wanna do door to door canvassing? - not a single hand goes up.

Anyway, what will it take for you to wake up – do I need to approach Opera or Larry King and spill the dirt on the PCC and C4L???? - I have picked up a LOT of dirt!

I'm one of a handful of NATIONAL LEVEL grassroots organizers – and yes, I have picked up some very embarrassing information along the way. What will it take for you to get with the program?

-t

Those of us who gave up our Christmas breaks in order to canvass for Dr. Paul last year don't think too highly of these claims...

[tangent4ronpaul]

Those of us who gave up our Christmas breaks in order to canvass for Dr. Paul last year don't think too highly of these claims...

So tell us what happened in this SECRET organization - The Paul Youth corp! - think a replay of 1933...

What contact did you have with the Meetups? - we tried to contact you and were ignored or blown off.

I organize organizers - many attempts were made. I only know of 3 successful contacts to bridge the gap between the 2 organizations. And they were not that fruitful. By contacts, I mean individuals at least willing to talk to us - a little.

-t

[nate895]

I agree with many of these assessments about the incompetence of the campaign, but then again, there aren't many people in the liberty movement who have any PoliSci experience at all, or at least enough to run a major campaign 4 Prez. We need to learn by doing in this movement. We can learn how to run a campaign, or at least a specific part of the campaign if you just read some books, and go out and try it out and see if your plans work. That is another problem, Ron Paul's campaign didn't have a plan of any real variety. Their plan was to go with the flow, and you just can't do that if you are trying to win the Presidency, or any office that you face more than token opposition for.

In order to rally the grassroots back together, we need to have a real campaign for President again. The next candidate, whether it be Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or some other liberty-oriented Republican, also needs to use their platform to assemble a slate of Congressional candidates. This alone can excite the grassroots movement again. Right now, the CFL serves absolutely no purpose that can't be done within the simple framework of campaigns or meetups.

[CMoore]

I think you're pretty much preaching to the choir at this point.



I know it's just a typo--but I really like it! :p

You are so right!! This story would indeed make a great OPERA.
Composers anyone?

[tangent4ronpaul]

You are so right!! This story would indeed make a great OPERA.
Composers anyone?

OK guys - ENOUGH with my misspelling a show I NEVER watch!

can we concentrate on the politics and problems here?

thanks,

-t

[constituent]

though I agree that "A eulogy" sounds better than "An eulogy," but i'm pretty certain that it's not the correct way to go about spelling it.

my texaspeak is causing me confusion though.

[acptulsa]

though I agree that "A eulogy" sounds better than "An eulogy," but i'm pretty certain that it's not the correct way to go about spelling it.

my texaspeak is causing me confusion though.

Actually it isn't uncommon for words that begin with vowels but are pronounced as though they begin with the letter y to use a instead of an. Think of a one-trick pony, for example.

[free.alive]

I worked for the PCC.

I worked for another campaign afterwards.

I wasn't ready for either, but they were tremendous learning experiences. Now, I'm tryuing to build on those and put things into action locally. If all goes well, our group in this medium-sized city in my state will create a template for organizing locally, as well as a political education course, instructional materials and greater insights into manipulating the process from a minority position.

I'm learning the last bit right now.

I am a District Coordinator for the C4L, however I like many of you am disappointed with their pace. However, the sheer size of what they're trying to do with their tiny staff explains all the feet-dragging. It is not intentional. I just wished they were able to see on the ground how much this delay is hurting us perpetuating the movement.

But, they are on the right track. The major hurdle to their program is a legal one regarding data which I'm not comfortable discussing here.

I just wish that people who don't really know what they're talking about could see how nihilistic they sound to people who actually know a little about what's going on and see how off-base accusations are.

Not everything is a conspiracy. In fact, very little is.

[constituent]

I just wish that people who don't really know what they're talking about could see how nihilistic they sound to people who actually know a little about what's going on and see how off-base accusations are.

Off-base, lol.

Read the bolded statements again if you want to actually know the problem.



Not everything is a conspiracy. In fact, very little is.

Not sure what that has to do w/ anything, other than serving as a thinly-veiled insult (one used frequently by staffers attempting to belittle those "who don't really know...") that is.

[constituent]

Actually it isn't uncommon for words that begin with vowels but are pronounced as though they begin with the letter y to use a instead of an. Think of a one-trick pony, for example.

certainly you meant uh one-trick pony, right?

;):D

[John of Des Moines]

Here are my two cents worth.

The grassroots did more for Doctor Paul than all the other candidates combined. No other campaign in history had a grassroots movement like Dotcor Paul had. Individuals buying newspaper ads, billboards, tv & radio ads, chip-ins ranging from the blimp to helping pay for others to travel. Simply incredible. I do not believe we will witness such a spontaneous rally of support for a candidate in our lifetimes.

However, what could the campaign have done better? One thing and one thing alone would have insured at the very least a good damn convention floor fight. That one thing is if the campaign (Doctor Paul) took up the offer Jan Michaelson made to the campaign right after the August 07 Iowa Straw Poll. Several members (presently and future) of the Iowa campaign staff meet with Michaelson the week following the Straw Poll and right off the bat Michaelson offered to let Doctor Paul come on his show (WHO Radio 1040 AM; M-F: 9 a.m. to 12:30 p.m.) every other week for one hour and every week for ten minutes to comment on hot issues. That would have been from the middle of August to January. Count up the number of FREE hours on the main Iowa talk radio station. Take a map of the WHO coverage area and overlay it of that of a map of the caucus results. You'll notice that where the WHO signal reaches Huck won and along the Mississippi River where the signal is weak Mitt won. Early in the summer of 07 Michaelson had Mitt scheduled to be on for an hour (iirc) and Michaelson literally had him on the run after 15 minutes. And there went Mitt's campaign in Iowa. The afternoon drive talking head on WHO is Steve Deace, then a real Huck cheerleader. It seemed that everyday he served up a big helping of Huck pie to his listeners and they goggled it up.

Had Doctor Paul taken up Jan Michaelson's offer I truly believe he would have at the very least placed in the top three with a horse race between those three. And a strong second (with a weak third place runner) or even coming in first would not have been a wild-eye dream. A result like that in Iowa would have forced the msm to cover his campaign with a wee bit more respect.

In short, somebody in the campaign fucked up never looking at the campaign as a campaign for President and instead kept the focus on starting a bullshit organization with no leadership.

To me the real test of Doctor Paul's commitment to the Constitution will occur on the day Congress counts the Electoral College votes. If Doctor Paul fails to object to votes for BHO based on the birth certificate issue (assuming BHO doesn't release a certified copy of the long form type or the issue is not resolved by then) then Doctor Paul is a tool and only ran to give the government a way to gauge the size of the freedom movement and mostly likely set us all up for a big roundup.

My 2 cents worth.

[JS4Pat]

In short, somebody in the campaign fucked up never looking at the campaign as a campaign for President

I think that is pretty obvious.



If Doctor Paul fails to object to votes for BHO based on the birth certificate issue (assuming BHO doesn't release a certified copy of the long form type or the issue is not resolved by then) then Doctor Paul is a tool and only ran to give the government a way to gauge the size of the freedom movement and mostly likely set us all up for a big roundup.

You lost me there...:rolleyes:

[NYgs23]

All the demoralization around here is driving me crazy. Why are libertarians always such pessimists? It took virtually all of human history to end legal slavery, but in the past 200 years it has ended. The human race WILL continue outgrow its chains. Now, you are an individual. So live your own life, be free, act free, and spread the message of freedom your own way.

[Peace&Freedom]

The grassroots did more for Doctor Paul than all the other candidates combined. No other campaign in history had a grassroots movement like Dotcor Paul had. Individuals buying newspaper ads, billboards, tv & radio ads, chip-ins ranging from the blimp to helping pay for others to travel. Simply incredible. I do not believe we will witness such a spontaneous rally of support for a candidate in our lifetimes...

To me the real test of Doctor Paul's commitment to the Constitution will occur on the day Congress counts the Electoral College votes. If Doctor Paul fails to object to votes for BHO based on the birth certificate issue (assuming BHO doesn't release a certified copy of the long form type or the issue is not resolved by then) then Doctor Paul is a tool and only ran to give the government a way to gauge the size of the freedom movement and mostly likely set us all up for a big roundup.


There is clearly a lot of trust to restore. The grassroots felt we had an unspoken deal with the campaign, one where we would do all the edgy and daring stuff, while HQ would be expected to run to win, while doing the traditional campaign things right. The assurances by Paul himself, the confident postings by his insider friends on the LRC blog certainly gave us an expectancy of competence (that existed, or would be shortly demonstrated) in the primaries. Now amid the ruins of campaign blunders compounded by C4L sluggishness, Paul will have to show the ability to communicate with his own movement better before many supporters come back to commit to him again.

[JS4Pat]

Paul will have to show the ability to communicate with his own movement better before many supporters come back to commit to him again.

I don't think we have to commit to Ron Paul - we just have to commit to the message.

And we need a movement leader. I think Ron Paul has proven to be an extraordinary face/inspiration of the movement - but we also need someone who can lead the nuts and bolts effort to build a successful victory strategy.

Live free and spread freedom in your own way is great but it is NOT the fastest and most effective way to build a movement and achieve tangible victories.

[acptulsa]

Paul will have to show the ability to communicate with his own movement better before many supporters come back to commit to him again.

Reagan was called the Great Communicator. To my mind, he seldom said anything at all. In any case, this is yet another example of how Ron Paul is no Ronald Reagan. In general, I consider this the highest of compliments, but here and there you have to give the old charlatain (whom a good many of us considered the devil incarnate at the time) his due.

We've spent this whole campaign puzzling over communication--the communication of excellent but complex ideas. And I'll tell you something--we have brought the language of libertarianism a great, great distance this year. I'd say it's twice as good as it was before; put that on a chart and it will look like exponential, hyperbolic growth.

If we keep at this, by 2012--nay, by 2010--we'll be ready for prime time. Ya with me?

[John of Des Moines]

Reagan was called the Great Communicator.

FWIW, Reagan worked at WHO radio back in the 30's.

Yep, somebody will had to explain the "Doctor Paul is too good to talk to friendly media outlets with great reach." WTF??? And don't give me the excuse he was too busy to talk with a microphone jockey (who was a supporter) between the hours of 9:00 to 12:30 central time every two weeks and ten minutes the opposing week. Sad so many of us feel we were suckered. But I can help but feel that way.

[acptulsa]

FWIW, Reagan worked at WHO radio back in the 30's.

Yep, somebody will had to explain the "Doctor Paul is too good to talk to friendly media outlets with great reach." WTF??? And don't give me the excuse he was too busy to talk with a microphone jockey (who was a supporter) between the hours of 9:00 to 12:30 central time every two weeks and ten minutes the opposing week. Sad so many of us feel we were suckered. But I can help but feel that way.

I would have jumped on the situation you describe myself. This sort of end run around the networks is just why the radio station ownership laws were originally written the way they were written. Likewise the existing primary system.

I must confess I'm no anarchist. The game of life should have rules and umpires, to my mind. I'm just sick to death of rules you can't ever learn because there are too damned many of them and umpires that are playing the game as well--and are often the very people you'd want the umpire to protect you from.

[ingrid]

Are you TRYING to sabotage the movement???? - It sure seems that way. I look around my Meetup and I see older folks working 1-2 jobs. Single parents and ppl in wheel chairs. Wanna do door to door canvassing? - not a single hand goes up.


That's not true! I do know that canvassing went on in Baltimore County, including Catonsville. Patrick and Donna had organized groups, which included a mix of college students and other people. Most of the canvassing btw was done on Saturday mornings.

At the Revolution March, I saw elderly people, people in wheelchairs and even one guy on crutches doing the march too. At the Baltimore End the Fed Event, one of our members who has a leg disability was there standing in the cold waving his flag. I think that for canvassing, it has a lot more to do with drive, than physical ability.

I do wonder why we didn't have more students in the Maryland meetup groups, because I do know that other (non-student) Ron Paul meetups had a lot compared to us...

btw if you haven't see it already http://www.youngamericansforliberty.org/

I definitely agree that a compromise somewhere in the middle is needed. As you know in Maryland, many of the active people haven't signed up for the C4L, let alone as a precinct leader. To be successful, the C4L needs to pull those people in.

btw do you have the video Steven Vincent shot of the Leadership summit?

[ItsTime]

holy shit the movements dead? You might want to talk to the random people I have bumped into the last month that are talk about ending the fed, limiting government, lower taxes. Ive been all over New England the last month and its the same. People are OUTRAGED and looking to more libertarian ideals than before, even if they do not know what they are thinking is libertarian yet.

[heavenlyboy34]

Reagan was called the Great Communicator. To my mind, he seldom said anything at all. In any case, this is yet another example of how Ron Paul is no Ronald Reagan. In general, I consider this the highest of compliments, but here and there you have to give the old charlatain (whom a good many of us considered the devil incarnate at the time) his due.

We've spent this whole campaign puzzling over communication--the communication of excellent but complex ideas. And I'll tell you something--we have brought the language of libertarianism a great, great distance this year. I'd say it's twice as good as it was before; put that on a chart and it will look like exponential, hyperbolic growth.

If we keep at this, by 2012--nay, by 2010--we'll be ready for prime time. Ya with me?

I think 2012 is more realistic, but 2010 is a good ambition. :D

[RonPaulVolunteer]

We are having a rest here and then roaring back into life come January. Our meetup has rented an office where a volunteer will man a phone and computer all day every day in rotation, and we are reaching out to other non-RP meetup groups and organizing group activities, reaching out to students and organizing film nights, all kinds of things. We recently changed the name of our group from the Ron Paul group to the Campaign for Liberty group, and I think we're going to change it again and omit CFL. They are helping us in no way whatsoever, they have zero name recognition outside the movement, and frankly, they have already said they wished the meetups were not using the name anyway. We are going to educate a lot of people over the next 4 years, with or without the CFL. What they are doing is not even discussed. They may as well not exist.

[lucius]

We are having a rest here and then roaring back into life come January. Our meetup has rented an office where a volunteer will man a phone and computer all day every day in rotation, and we are reaching out to other non-RP meetup groups and organizing group activities, reaching out to students and organizing film nights, all kinds of things. We recently changed the name of our group from the Ron Paul group to the Campaign for Liberty group, and I think we're going to change it again an omit CFL. They are helping us in no way whatsoever, they have zero name recognition outside the movement, and frankly, they have already said they wished the meetups were not using the name anyway. We are going to educate a lot of people over the next 4 years, with our without the CFL. What they are doing is not even discussed. They may as well not exist.

Very nice!

[WRellim]

There is clearly a lot of trust to restore. The grassroots felt we had an unspoken deal with the campaign, one where we would do all the edgy and daring stuff, while HQ would be expected to run to win, while doing the traditional campaign things right. The assurances by Paul himself, the confident postings by his insider friends on the LRC blog certainly gave us an expectancy of competence (that existed, or would be shortly demonstrated) in the primaries. Now amid the ruins of campaign blunders compounded by C4L sluggishness, Paul will have to show the ability to communicate with his own movement better before many supporters come back to commit to him again.

Well said.

But I think the damage is actually far WORSE than that.

What the "AWOL" and incompetent (false?) campaign for President (which we now know was never REALLY a goal) -- what that whole "betrayal" has done is embedded a DEEP level of skepticism and mistrust in a large number of individuals (typically in INVERSE proportion to the amount of time & money one spent on the campaign efforts).

Those individuals -- like myself -- will now be VERY VERY wary of ANYONE and EVERYONE who attempts to campaign on the freedom message. In short this will make it difficult (nigh impossible) for the movement to "get behind" anyone else in the future.

A tremendous amount was "squandered" and "wasted" by the campaign ... and I am NOT just talking about FRN's.
:mad:


To quote my father: "It is not simply that you LIED to me... it is that from now on, I will NEVER be able to know whether you are telling the truth."
:(

(And IMHO, a huge amount of recent communication from CFL has consisted of yet MORE lies and half-truths... may as well be the reincarnation of the Bush administration... more of the same BS, just with a different colored candy-coating.)

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

The freedom movement, by definition, needs to understand that politics is the ruleset by which our masters chain us, and as such, willful participation within the system is not only a futile effort, but is actually counterproductive.

Stop voting, stop running (for office), and stop begging for tablescraps. Noncompliance is the way.

[klamath]

And once again the grassroots proudly pats themselves on the back about the great work they did completely ignoring huge amount of feedback from people that generally agreed with RP but didn't vote for him because of the pure insanity of the grassroots supporters. I haven't yet seen a person say they didn't vote for RP because of that Ad, "He's catching on , I'm tellin ya".

[WRellim]

And once again the grassroots proudly pats themselves on the back about the great work they did completely ignoring huge amount of feedback from people that generally agreed with RP but didn't vote for him because of the pure insanity of the grassroots supporters.

A lot of truth in that... and a LOT of people IN the grassroots tried to reign in a significant part of that (one word from RP would have ended a lot of it).


I haven't yet seen a person say they didn't vote for RP because of that Ad, "He's catching on , I'm tellin ya".

Did anyone actually even SEE those ads?

Seriously, the gripe (at least from my end) about the ads was that they were tremendously expensive and completely ineffective -- in short they were a dramatic WASTE of campaign funds -- it's not that they "turned off" any voters, but rather that they didn't do anything to turn anyone "ON" to the campaign either (and certainly not enough to warrant the money spent on them).

I mean do you know of ANYONE who DID vote for RP (or otherwise become involved in the campaign) because of ANY of the TV or Radio ads?

That IS after all, what they are supposed to do.

[nate895]

A lot of truth in that... and a LOT of people IN the grassroots tried to reign in a significant part of that (one word from RP would have ended a lot of it).



Did anyone actually even SEE those ads?

Seriously, the gripe (at least from my end) about the ads was that they were tremendously expensive and completely ineffective -- in short they were a dramatic WASTE of campaign funds -- it's not that they "turned off" any voters, but rather that they didn't do anything to turn anyone "ON" to the campaign either (and certainly not enough to warrant the money spent on them).

I mean do you know of ANYONE who DID vote for RP (or otherwise become involved in the campaign) because of ANY of the TV or Radio ads?

That IS after all, what they are supposed to do.

That is the problem with infusing last minute cash into a campaign. They were expecting to only get a limited amount of funds, and instead they got an avalanche in the last days. You wind up with either several bad ads (what happened) or one good ad that winds up saturating the market. If they would have gotten that money in May or June (and continuing getting more and more), they would have had time to make tons of really good ads and plaster them all over the airwaves.

[WRellim]

That is the problem with infusing last minute cash into a campaign. They were expecting to only get a limited amount of funds, and instead they got an avalanche in the last days. You wind up with either several bad ads (what happened) or one good ad that winds up saturating the market. If they would have gotten that money in May or June (and continuing getting more and more), they would have had time to make tons of really good ads and plaster them all over the airwaves.

Actually (as I detailed elsewhere in analysis of the FEC Reports) nearly ALL of the money spent on those ads was raised in the 3rd quarter of 2007 -- and NOT what was raised with the funding in the 4th quarter (in fact most of the contracts and payments for those ads predated the big money-bombs).

The funds from the 4th Qtr "money bombs" was squandered in a lot of OTHER ways... which DID suffer from your diagnosed "disease."

But the root of that is not with the funding side (ALL campaigns that receive funding get a BIG share of the amount "late in the game" -- that is just the way that the "bandwagon" effect of politics works).

The REAL problem is not that the funds came in "late" -- it is that the campaign staff were clueless and inexperienced and didn't have any really solid "plans" or even "contingencies" in place for how to spend money as it DID come in... and that can be chalked up (IMO) to both inexperience and/or simple incompetence. (But hey, the bright side is that -- AFAIK -- at least it wasn't because of financial fraud and theft. Which IS a real problem with a lot of campaigns and political orgs.)

[nate895]

Actually (as I detailed elsewhere in analysis of the FEC Reports) nearly ALL of the money spent on those ads was raised in the 3rd quarter of 2007 -- and NOT what was raised with the funding in the 4th quarter (in fact most of the contracts and payments for those ads predated the big money-bombs).

The funds from the 4th Qtr "money bombs" was squandered in a lot of OTHER ways... which DID suffer from your diagnosed "disease."

But the root of that is not with the funding side (ALL campaigns that receive funding get a BIG share of the amount "late in the game" -- that is just the way that the "bandwagon" effect of politics works).

The REAL problem is not that the funds came in "late" -- it is that the campaign staff were clueless and inexperienced and didn't have any really solid "plans" or even "contingencies" in place for how to spend money as it DID come in... and that can be chalked up (IMO) to both inexperience and/or simple incompetence. (But hey, the bright side is that -- AFAIK -- at least it wasn't because of financial fraud and theft. Which IS a real problem with a lot of campaigns and political orgs.)


1) Ron Paul was the only candidate who had his 4th Quarter dramatically exceed any of his previous quarters.

2) I agree that more could have been done as far as plans go, but by that point in the campaign they were simply out there to spread the message, if that wasn't the goal from the beginning.

3) There wasn't enough funds from the third quarter to be spent on good ads.

The campaign probably was incompetent, but if they would have gotten a lot funds enough to be competitive in the early "Money Primaries" the media would be bashing their ads on "Beltway Boys," "Special Report," and whatever other political talk shows they have out there. No one wants to be embarrassed like that in the media over and over. It is better to be ignored than to be laughed at constantly for being a joke.

[WRellim]

1) Ron Paul was the only candidate who had his 4th Quarter dramatically exceed any of his previous quarters.

Actually that's a myth. Huckabee gained a lot in 4th Qtr as well.



2) I agree that more could have been done as far as plans go, but by that point in the campaign they were simply out there to spread the message, if that wasn't the goal from the beginning.

Well if that was indeed the campaign's goal at that point (or all along) then they were doing a "bait & switch" on the vast majority of supporters (who could have saved their money).


3) There wasn't enough funds from the third quarter to be spent on good ads.

Well, there we simply disagree (and I base my position on statements from several professionals in the industry when they see what was spent). The amounts that they spent on the BAD ads was more than enough to make a significant number of GOOD ads. The problem with the ads was much more the chosen content and amateurish scripting/targeting than it was the "technical quality" (which was acceptable).


The campaign probably was incompetent, but if they would have gotten a lot funds enough to be competitive in the early "Money Primaries" the media would be bashing their ads on "Beltway Boys," "Special Report," and whatever other political talk shows they have out there. No one wants to be embarrassed like that in the media over and over. It is better to be ignored than to be laughed at constantly for being a joke.

Actually that's another myth. The vast majority of money (somewhere around $20 Million, I'd have to reference figures for exact totals) that the campaign DID spend, WAS in fact spent on the "early" primaries -- most specifically on New Hampshire and Iowa. But alas, it was just spent to virtually no effect, again because the "message" was so warped and garbled.




UPDATE: Here's the thread with the analysis of 4th Qtr 2007 RPPCC spending http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=108230

[Austin]

The Iowa campaign was sabotaged by a mole. :(

[RonPaulVolunteer]

The freedom movement, by definition, needs to understand that politics is the ruleset by which our masters chain us, and as such, willful participation within the system is not only a futile effort, but is actually counterproductive.

Stop voting, stop running (for office), and stop begging for tablescraps. Noncompliance is the way.

Wish there was even the slightest bit of truth to that. But there's not.

The non-organization of community is precisely what the masters want. It seems you anarchists are utter perfectionists at playing into their hands. The rest of us have something to do, help us or get the hell out of the way.

PS. WHY are you even HERE if you believe the above???

[nate895]

Actually that's another myth. The vast majority of money (somewhere around $20 Million, I'd have to reference figures for exact totals) that the campaign DID spend, WAS in fact spent on the "early" primaries -- most specifically on New Hampshire and Iowa. But alas, it was just spent to virtually no effect, again because the "message" was so warped and garbled.

I was talking about the "money primaries" where candidates are judged in the early part of the year prior to the election based on who gets the most money. It's how Dean's campaign got going, he was a no name until he got tens of millions in cash in fundraising. They would have covered Paul's campaign if he would have had money starting early on, and that would have led to a better quality campaign so that way they wouldn't look stupid in front of the whole country.

[WRellim]

The Iowa campaign was sabotaged by a mole. :(

And had the campaign management been at all competent they would have had data backups and disaster recovery plans in place, and the actions (or inactions) of any one individual wouldn't have made any difference.

[WRellim]

I was talking about the "money primaries" where candidates are judged in the early part of the year prior to the election based on who gets the most money. It's how Dean's campaign got going, he was a no name until he got tens of millions in cash in fundraising. They would have covered Paul's campaign if he would have had money starting early on, and that would have led to a better quality campaign so that way they wouldn't look stupid in front of the whole country.

Actually, RP was doing OK in THAT respect as well.

While campaigns like McCain's were squandering all of their early money (like McCain's $10 Million per month fiasco) -- instead Ron was slowly building up a war chest... and that DID get him noticed and got him some SOLID early (summer 2007) press coverage.

The problem was that NO ONE on the campaign staff had any real PR experience (instead there was an ingrained antipathy and hatred of all media, leading to an early "victim" mentality) and as a result, many of those opportunities there were squandered as well. But again, that wasn't a "money" thing, it was a mismanagement issue.
:(

[tangent4ronpaul]

That's not true! I do know that canvassing went on in Baltimore County, including Catonsville. Patrick and Donna had organized groups, which included a mix of college students and other people. Most of the canvassing btw was done on Saturday mornings.

The only local canvasing I know about was the GOTV canvasing - when the PCC out of the blue gave us THOUSANDS of contacts for people who had signed up to volunteer less than 2 weeks before the election. So many people that they dwarfed the number of people we had in Meetups. So many that we didn't have time to call them all and we certainly didn't have supplies for all of them or even time to order supplies. Over and over the conversation went "Why haven't you contacted me - I volunteered last year..." And then Paul came out with that "didn't expect to win" video and the number of people willing to help canvas went from 90% to 60% overnight. To add insult to injury, we were told we couldn't use those lists for anything else. GROSS INCOMPETENCE!


I definitely agree that a compromise somewhere in the middle is needed. As you know in Maryland, many of the active people haven't signed up for the C4L, let alone as a precinct leader. To be successful, the C4L needs to pull those people in.

The operative question is why aren't people signing up. And I think we have an answer in this and other threads. It's also clear that the CFL is NOT willing to make the changes needed to turn that around. So RIP CFL.


btw do you have the video Steven Vincent shot of the Leadership summit?

No.

-t

[Conza88]

Didn't read much of this... but I'll add some none bullshit to the discussion.. :)

The reason people drop off is because they become pessimistic. They have a short term focus. They join and think they'll change the world in a few weeks, and become disillusioned when they don't.

People should be realistic, but optimistic - there is a CRISIS... HELLLOOOO, people are looking around for the truth, and you want to walk away? That is fken retarded...

Anyway, yeah.. :|

[SnappleLlama]

Geez...another thread about the incompetence of C4L? This place is becoming so depressing.

[nate895]

Actually, RP was doing OK in THAT respect as well.

While campaigns like McCain's were squandering all of their early money (like McCain's $10 Million per month fiasco) -- instead Ron was slowly building up a war chest... and that DID get him noticed and got him some SOLID early (summer 2007) press coverage.

The problem was that NO ONE on the campaign staff had any real PR experience (instead there was an ingrained antipathy and hatred of all media, leading to an early "victim" mentality) and as a result, many of those opportunities there were squandered as well. But again, that wasn't a "money" thing, it was a mismanagement issue.
:(

I wasn't a Ron Paul supporter until November, and I can tell you that as an avid news watcher before I supported, I saw a grand total of 5 stories about him before early October. 2 were about his face off with Giuliani, the other three were laughing at McCain because even someone like Ron Paul had more money than he did.

[HenryKnoxFineBooks]

Geez...another thread about the incompetence of C4L? This place is becoming so depressing.

I agree. If anyone thinks that the Grassroots is better, then keep doing grassroots stuff. If you think the CFL site is bad- don't go. Seems real simple,- do what you like, dont bad-mouth other pro-liberty sites and organizations. Ta-da!

[ingrid]

The only local canvasing I know about was the GOTV canvasing - when the PCC out of the blue gave us THOUSANDS of contacts for people who had signed up to volunteer less than 2 weeks before the election. So many people that they dwarfed the number of people we had in Meetups. So many that we didn't have time to call them all and we certainly didn't have supplies for all of them or even time to order supplies. Over and over the conversation went "Why haven't you contacted me - I volunteered last year..." And then Paul came out with that "didn't expect to win" video and the number of people willing to help canvas went from 90% to 60% overnight. To add insult to injury, we were told we couldn't use those lists for anything else. GROSS INCOMPETENCE!

Donna and Patrick had done canvassing. I think they did it about five or six times, since i was getting emails about it. I think it was through the meetup Donna used to have...

but, I do see what you're saying now. That would have been a much better example to use than the one you did, which was kind of rude, since a bunch of the locals did do it.

yeah, the incompetency from the campaign was legendary. a mccain mole probably couldn't have done a better job f-ing things up. things like not informing the press for a major rally, etc.


The operative question is why aren't people signing up. And I think we have an answer in this and other threads. It's also clear that the CFL is NOT willing to make the changes needed to turn that around. So RIP CFL.

I'm still waiting to see what happens when Maryland starts meeting, but it doesn't look good so far...


No.
Yeah, i was hoping to give it to Mell, since she left me a voice mail yesterday, because she's still upset that she didn't go...I'm hoping that once she watches the video, it will change her mind about that...

[pacelli]

I haven't yet seen a person say they didn't vote for RP because of that Ad, "He's catching on , I'm tellin ya".

That's because you are 1 person, and it would be statistically improbable to meet the 3 people that actually saw the broadcast advert. :D