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View Full Version : One of the most retarded arguments about Constitutionality



Josh_LA
11-24-2008, 04:08 PM
People telling me that Alcoholics Anonymous is religious, therefore its unConstitutional to send anybody to it.

OK, let me get this straight, it's OK to jail a person, imprison a person, and fine a person all against his will, but it's NOT OK to send a person to AA?
anaconda
11-24-2008, 04:32 PM
Interesting. It may in fact be technically unconstitutional. Incarceration does not enforce any theology upon inmates, as far as I know.
JeNNiF00F00
11-24-2008, 04:56 PM
Id much rather pay the fine etc. than to be sent to AA if I had to go. I don't drink but if I did and was required to go, I think that I would rebel against the entire thing. Plus, I don't think that it would work for someone who didn't want to quit drinking. Same goes for people who use drugs and go to rehab. Or what about fat people who like food, or people who like cigarettes? If they aren't ready to change then they can't be forced into changing themselves by anyone. :)
Josh_LA
11-24-2008, 04:59 PM
Interesting. It may in fact be technically unconstitutional. Incarceration does not enforce any theology upon inmates, as far as I know.

yes, incarceration DOESN'T force theology, but so what if it does? You'd rather be locked up than pretend to be converted?
Josh_LA
11-24-2008, 05:00 PM
Id much rather pay the fine etc. than to be sent to AA if I had to go. I don't drink but if I did and was required to go, I think that I would rebel against the entire thing. Plus, I don't think that it would work for someone who didn't want to quit drinking. Same goes for people who use drugs and go to rehab. Or what about fat people who like food, or people who like cigarettes? If they aren't ready to change then they can't be forced into changing themselves by anyone. :)

when you did something criminal , you don't get to chose your poison, or else who'd be willing to go to prison?

what you do is your business and frankly nobody cares whether you changed, but you deserve punishment if you violated law, is that wrong?
foofighter20x
11-24-2008, 05:31 PM
Part of any 12 step program is submitting to a higher power.

If I'm an alcoholic atheist that has been forced into such a program, and my punishment doesn't end until I've completed said program, then my state-sanctioned punishment is forcing me to accept a religious belief system, which is a violation of my first and fourteenth amendment rights.
dannno
11-24-2008, 05:39 PM
Why do you want to force people to go to rehab?
TastyWheat
11-24-2008, 06:13 PM
I don't think anyone should be forced to go to AA, but if it reduces the fine/sentence then I'm sure most people would do it.
Josh_LA
11-24-2008, 08:34 PM
I don't think anyone should be forced to go to AA, but if it reduces the fine/sentence then I'm sure most people would do it.

that's exactly my point.

nobody wants to force anybody to do anything, but it's ridiculous to say that a person's freedom of belief (or freedom to lie about it) is more important than his freedom from prison (if that's his crime).
Josh_LA
11-24-2008, 08:36 PM
Part of any 12 step program is submitting to a higher power.

If I'm an alcoholic atheist that has been forced into such a program, and my punishment doesn't end until I've completed said program, then my state-sanctioned punishment is forcing me to accept a religious belief system, which is a violation of my first and fourteenth amendment rights.

right, and going to prison isn't submitting to a higher power.

if you're a murderer or theif we shouldn't force you to submit to judges, jury and prison guards, that's against your right to pursue happiness, right?

I AM NOT equating drunkiness with murder or theft, I am equating the fact people are forced different things as punishment against their crime, so why is forcing prison and fines OK, but forcing religious beliefs (which you can easily lie about) not?
Josh_LA
11-24-2008, 08:39 PM
Why do you want to force people to go to rehab?

why would you want to force anybody to prison? that's wrong , isn't it?
SeanEdwards
11-24-2008, 09:15 PM
You can't empower the government to forcibly indoctrinate people in religious belief systems. That's demented. Talk about cruel and unusual. I'd rather be caned personally.
Josh_LA
11-24-2008, 09:55 PM
You can't empower the government to forcibly indoctrinate people in religious belief systems. That's demented. Talk about cruel and unusual. I'd rather be caned personally.

but you can empower the government to forcibly imprison people and fine people, right?
SeanEdwards
11-24-2008, 10:07 PM
but you can empower the government to forcibly imprison people and fine people, right?

Yes, because those are typical punishments and are not cruel and unusual.

Brainwashing IS cruel and unusual.
danberkeley
11-24-2008, 10:43 PM
Well, in that case, FRNs are unconstitutional because they say "in god we trust:. Woohoo! Let's do away with FRNs! Btw, this may be our only hope towards ending the Fed.
Josh_LA
11-25-2008, 12:29 AM
Yes, because those are typical punishments and are not cruel and unusual.

Brainwashing IS cruel and unusual.

not if you're smart enough to pretend like they did it.
foofighter20x
11-25-2008, 01:20 AM
right, and going to prison isn't submitting to a higher power.

:rolleyes:

in the spiritual sense, it's not.

in the temporal sense, you betcha!
foofighter20x
11-25-2008, 01:24 AM
if you're a murderer or theif we shouldn't force you to submit to judges, jury and prison guards, that's against your right to pursue happiness, right?

additionally, you are assuming the DoI has any legal weight with respect to Const. Law...

News flash, dude. It don't.

My rights under the Const. are Life, Liberty, and Property, which can't be taken without due process.

And if I got my day in Court and a fair trial, then my freedom was taken in accordance with due process.

I suggest you read up on that. ;) :cool:
kathy88
11-25-2008, 06:06 AM
AA is not so "religious" as it is a "spiritual" program. With that said, no, no one should be court ordered to go there. AA was founded on voluntary participation. Our local newspaper, in the court reports, used to put people's names who were "sentenced" for DUIs in the column and say they were "sentenced" to AA. I caled the newspaper totally pissed off. It sends the wrong message about the organization and, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE ANONYMOUS. I've attended meetings for 6 years, and it is a very rare thing when someone who was court ordered to the program actually gets and stays sober. They tend to be disruptive and sullen, and have even pushed people away who truly wanted to try to get sober by their lousy attitudes.
Mesogen
11-29-2008, 07:58 PM
Would you say that forcing people into religious services while in the military is unconstitutional?

http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/PDF/CompulsoryChapel.pdf (<-pdf)
http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/
foofighter20x
11-29-2008, 11:24 PM
Would you say that forcing people into religious services while in the military is unconstitutional?

http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/PDF/CompulsoryChapel.pdf (<-pdf)
http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/

What exactly is your point? The PDF you linked says that the courts overturned the compulsory attendance of religious services required of the cadets at the service academies way back in the early 1970s.

Your point is moot.
John of Des Moines
12-05-2008, 10:40 PM
What exactly is your point? The PDF you linked says that the courts overturned the compulsory attendance of religious services required of the cadets at the service academies way back in the early 1970s.

Your point is moot.

After reading this thread ... I need a drink.