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PeacePlan
11-23-2008, 11:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJc6uczdhE0

ClayTrainor
11-23-2008, 11:46 AM
Wow!

And that's all i have to say.

w2992
11-23-2008, 11:53 AM
neither mcain or obama were born in the us so they each passed legislation to permit forieners to be president

Natalie
11-23-2008, 12:02 PM
That guy is funny.

I thought he already produced the Birth Certificate...

Is this it?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/birth_certificate_2.jpg

SnappleLlama
11-23-2008, 12:05 PM
That guy is funny.

I thought he already produced the Birth Certificate...

Is this it?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/birth_certificate_2.jpg

Why is there a "Rev 01" date at the bottom of that certificate? Doesn't that mean that the form wasn't created until 2001, or am I missing something?

ItsTime
11-23-2008, 12:29 PM
Barry is the most secretive president elect in history.

Roxi
11-23-2008, 12:49 PM
Why is there a "Rev 01" date at the bottom of that certificate? Doesn't that mean that the form wasn't created until 2001, or am I missing something?

the copy was created in 01, rarely does anyone have their original birth certificate at even our ages... i know mine was lost long ago and have had several copies sent to me since then

Roxi
11-23-2008, 12:51 PM
and OMG that guy cracks me up.... sorry but its really hard to take anyone like that seriously

angelatc
11-23-2008, 01:03 PM
If he does produce a birth certificate, the people spearheading this will never believe it is real.

scandinaviany3
11-23-2008, 02:50 PM
that is why the state should produce it to the supreme court and not obama saying who was the doctor of birth, signing it the hospital, etc

tropicangela
11-23-2008, 03:40 PM
Yday an Obama voter said ppl are grasping at straws and said there is no way he could have gotten this far if he wasn't eligible to be President. He thinks that whoever wants to be president has to present their papers as soon as they start running.

constitutional
11-23-2008, 03:54 PM
LOL, excellent speech. BOOM-SHAKA-LA-KA BABY!

lynnf
11-23-2008, 04:43 PM
Yday an Obama voter said ppl are grasping at straws and said there is no way he could have gotten this far if he wasn't eligible to be President. He thinks that whoever wants to be president has to present their papers as soon as they start running.


some people don't know what they are talking about. they assume things are a certain way.


some assume that anyone born of one American citizen makes them natural born --no

some assume that you have to prove you're natural born before running -- no

some assume that an opponent would make him prove it or they would use it against him -- no


lynn

Deborah K
11-23-2008, 04:57 PM
neither mcain or obama were born in the us so they each passed legislation to permit forieners to be president


Source?? They would have to pass an amendment to the Constitution since it is the Constitution that states the President shall be born a citizen.

lynnf
11-23-2008, 05:05 PM
That guy is funny.

I thought he already produced the Birth Certificate...

Is this it?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/birth_certificate_2.jpg


in the first place, that is a certificate of live birth, not a birth certificate; not the same thing

second, if that is what a digital image was produced of and placed on the daily kos or the Obama website, it appears to be a forgery.


lynn

ClayTrainor
11-23-2008, 05:26 PM
in the first place, that is a certificate of live birth, not a birth certificate; not the same thing



There was a previous thread on this, and a few people from this forum scanned their birth certificates that were labeled "Certificate of Live Birth".

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=169800

lynnf
11-23-2008, 06:08 PM
There was a previous thread on this, and a few people from this forum scanned their birth certificates that were labeled "Certificate of Live Birth".

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=169800


ok, let's be more specific: in Hawaii, they're not the same thing. notice that the ones that members produced had much more information on them, like probably the doctor that delivered and the hospital, etc?

cdc example of standard here:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-ACC.pdf

the Hawaii COLB doesn't have that.

lynn

BeFranklin
11-23-2008, 09:29 PM
some people don't know what they are talking about. they assume things are a certain way.

some assume that anyone born of one American citizen makes them natural born --no

lynn

You are wrong.

Natural born doesn't mean native born. Under english common law, which defines the legal terms the constitution was using at the time, you were a citizen if either you were born in the lands of the country, or of parents who were citizens. One is native born, one is natural born. But the constitution doesn't say native born, the States made their own citizenship rules, and when the revolution was over, alliegence to the king ceased and the people themselves were sovereigns.

Being a citizen by being born on the lands comes from our heritage of serfdom, the idea you owed alligence to the king and were his slave because of where you were born. The idea that you inherited your citizenship was the older pre-serfdom idea. English law had both, but one obviosly is contrary to the idea of freedom. Thomas Jefferson was specifically opposed to the idea you were a citizen based on serfdom concepts, and in virginia, you were recognized as a citizen based on parents:

Virgina: Adopted May 1777 authored by Thomas Jefferson:

All infants, whenever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise, whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father, if living, or otherwise, their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother, shall be deemed citizens of this Commonwealth until they relinquish that character, in manner as hereinafter expressed; and all others not being citizens of any, of the United States of America, shall be deemed aliens.

Since "Natural Born" citizen is dependent on State citizenship and national citizenship that did not exist at the time, at least in Virgina as shown above, you are natural born and therefore eligible to be a president according to that.

The United States didn't widely adopt "subjecthood" (this is what this is called) based on where you were born until the 14th Amendment. Before that, the states defined citzenship based on pre-existing legal concepts, and usually involved or included the concept of inheritance. There is a strong argument here that states don't make citizens either - its the people, already citizens, who created the states in convention.

In fact, the Magna Carta itself gives its rights to freemen based on descendants and heirs to those who signed. You can read some more here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=168928&page=5
It starts out very similar to the preamble of the United States Constitution, which is talking about we the people and our desendents. Magna Carta: We have also granted to all freemen of our kingdom, for us and our heirs forever, all the underwritten liberties, to be had and held by them and their heirs, of us and our heirs forever. That is by inheritance, and intent.

These threads are based on complete ignorance, which causes harm. There is a very good reason and history behind not wanting citizenship based on land boundaries - land boundaries are arbitray and government defined, and reside in the history of serfdom. Inheritance is natural, and derived from The People, and not government made at all.

BeFranklin
11-23-2008, 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scandinaviany3
Natural born has always been born in what is legally considered the US...the only slop in that interpretation is what is considered the US.

Over the centuries this has changed with new states for instance.

Couldn't POSSIBLY be true because US citizenship didnt even exist in this sense until the 14th.

Before that we had state citizenship, which usually noticed citizenship by inheritance.

Discussed in several threads already, citizenship by where you are born is based on serfdom, and makes you a subject. Under english law as found in the Magna Carta, freemen inherited their rights. The pre-amble of the Constitution looks like the Magna Carta in that sense, because America wasn't suppose to have subjects, but a free and sovereign people with the government being their servants.

lynnf
11-24-2008, 04:57 AM
You are wrong.

Natural born doesn't mean native born. Under english common law, which defines the legal terms the constitution was using at the time, you were a citizen if either you were born in the lands of the country, or of parents who were citizens. One is native born, one is natural born. But the constitution doesn't say native born, the States made their own citizenship rules, and when the revolution was over, alliegence to the king ceased and the people themselves were sovereigns.



Oh, I am, am I? Consider this: back then, citizenship followed from the father, not the mother, so in this case, Obama would be a Kenyan even back then.

Furthermore, consider the case of "Amerasian" children from the Vietnam war, those born from American fathers and Vietnamese mothers. Are they eligible to be President by virtue of their father's American citizenship? Maybe they can run and win and turn this country into a Vietnamese puppet! They would be eligible by your criteria.

lynn

Roxi
11-24-2008, 11:26 PM
If he does produce a birth certificate, the people spearheading this will never believe it is real.


thats whats so entertaining about all of this.... he has produced one, and no one believes it is real, It looks real to me, and I can't STAND the guy. I do however think its always possible that its a real copy, but someone was paid off in the right places to make it so... Im fairly sure that NoBama has the resources to pull something like that off, he is in the Clinton Posse.

lynnf
11-25-2008, 03:13 AM
thats whats so entertaining about all of this.... he has produced one, and no one believes it is real, It looks real to me, and I can't STAND the guy. I do however think its always possible that its a real copy, but someone was paid off in the right places to make it so... Im fairly sure that NoBama has the resources to pull something like that off, he is in the Clinton Posse.



here's the forgery report:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html

but you might rather choose to believe snopes.com or factcheck.org, both organizations with questionable connections -- and snopes is just a mom-and-pop organization without the resources to fully investigate anything. their analysis of the Obama situation is a joke, or it was when I last looked at it. so even if they were objective, their reliability would be questionable.

this is all not helped by Obama's suspicious behavior about it - not producing a bona fide copy, keeping records sealed, etc.

lynn

Pepsi
11-26-2008, 03:49 AM
Senator Mike Crapo on this..



Obama Citizenship
Some have raised questions about the eligibility of President-elect Barack Obama (D-Illinois) and Senator John McCain (R-Arizona) for the office of President of the United States. Having confidence in the electoral process and our public officials is critical to maintaining public confidence in our democracy. As such, the voters must be confident in the integrity of the electoral process and our electoral institutions.



The Constitution and federal law require that, among other things, only native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both American citizens) may be President of the United States. In President-elect Obama's case, some individuals have filed lawsuits in state and federal courts alleging that he has not proven that he is an American citizen, but each of those lawsuits have been dismissed. Furthermore, both the Director of Hawaii's Department of Health and the state's Registrar of Vital Statistics recently confirmed that Mr. Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 4, 1961, and, as such, meets the constitutional citizenship requirements for the presidency. If contrary documentation is produced and verified, this matter will necessarily be resolved by the judicial branch of our government under the Constitution.


http://crapo.senate.gov/issues/constituent_letters.cfm

BeFranklin
11-26-2008, 04:53 AM
Oh, I am, am I? Consider this: back then, citizenship followed from the father, not the mother, so in this case, Obama would be a Kenyan even back then.

Furthermore, consider the case of "Amerasian" children from the Vietnam war, those born from American fathers and Vietnamese mothers. Are they eligible to be President by virtue of their father's American citizenship? Maybe they can run and win and turn this country into a Vietnamese puppet! They would be eligible by your criteria.

lynn

Under inheritance, Obama might still not be eligible EVEN if he was born in the United States. Under the traditional law, you don't have ridicioulous things occuring like an illegal alien sneaks over and has a baby which is then a citizen even though no one in the family is.

According to Backstone, either the father has to be a citizen, or according to later definitions both parents have to be citizerns. This seems to me to be more natural. It isn't government defined, its inheritance by natural law.

FYI: I was just reading that Obama's mother wasn't legally married to his father, and his father was a polygamist. This is just getting more and more weird. So no, I don't trust what is going on either -- But I'm also right about the legal history, and this has been argued before. In a nutshell - I believe dual citzenship goes against the spirit of the eligibility clause.

lynnf
11-26-2008, 05:30 AM
"Dr. Ron Polarik" in a video about the forgery:

http://obamacrimes.com/index.php/news/66-new-video-r-ron-polarik-on-the-authenticity-of-obamas-colb



in short:
1) black characters on a green background should contain green pixels between the characters -- this has gray pixels, meaning tampering!
2) the border area is blurry whereas the rest of the document is clear, meaning the border was applied onto the rest of the document
3) these documents are typically tri-folded for mailing and there is a fold visible, but the other fold is missing!
4)inconsistent features - borders on the documents are changed every year, but this one has a 2008 seal but the border is the 2007 border!

make your own conclusion


now ask the question: why was a forgery needed?

lynn

BeFranklin
11-26-2008, 06:01 AM
Here is blog a just ran across today with a few of the things I've been saying in it:

http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html

lynnf
11-26-2008, 09:53 PM
NBC news reports it
guess they figured they were about to be embarrassed by not reporting it. I didn't see the report on TV but here's the web version


http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/11/26/1689515.aspx


DUO TAKE OBAMA BIRTH CHALLENGE TO COURT

When the justices of the U.S. Supreme Court meet on Dec. 5th, in their regular private conference to decide which cases to hear, two lawsuits that have captivated a segment of the blogosphere will be up for discussion.

Both urge the court to consider claims that President-elect Obama is not qualified to be president, because he is not a natural-born American citizen.

...


lynn

lynnf
11-27-2008, 08:52 AM
There have been connections made between Pfizer and the Kelo v City of New London case, meaning that there may have been some influence on the court in the decision. Of course, Pfizer denies any possible connection.

Obama seems to have been backed more than McCain by Big Pharma, but that could have just been backing the probable winner. Further, Big Pharma is gearing up to oppose certain parts of the Obama health plan which are reported to be detrimental to them.

Will these cases be decided by Big Pharma? Will they be for or against Obama?

lynn

Roxi
11-27-2008, 09:18 AM
here's the forgery report:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html

but you might rather choose to believe snopes.com or factcheck.org, both organizations with questionable connections -- and snopes is just a mom-and-pop organization without the resources to fully investigate anything. their analysis of the Obama situation is a joke, or it was when I last looked at it. so even if they were objective, their reliability would be questionable.

this is all not helped by Obama's suspicious behavior about it - not producing a bona fide copy, keeping records sealed, etc.

lynn


i did read that report, ill be honest, its a bit confusing, and im such a skeptic, my natural reaction to EVERYTHING now is even seeing proof with my own eyes isn't a final answer for me... even if i was holding obamas original birth certificate in my hand, that doesn't mean i would believe it was real.

read my earlier comments on snopes... i have proven them wrong before, i don't rely on them, and i know diddly squat about factcheck.

i can't comment on any suspicious behavior on obama's part, because i haven't heard a word from him about this whole thing, nor do i care what he has to say because he lies about everything

but what i do know is that it doesn't matter if the damn things a fake or not, because the powers that be swindled the minds of this country again, whoever it is that wanted him in that position, made sure he got there, and they are more powerful than the truth, or the truth seekers. so we can bring it up a million times but its not going to help, so its a bit annoying to hear about it over and over again.

I also know that these brainwashed idiots will not only uproar if it were to come down to pulling him out of office, and the reaction could be as bad as an assasination would be.

so in other words were screwed either way

Number19
11-27-2008, 03:54 PM
Considering the forgery report, perhaps the direction to proceed would be to pursue a criminal charge of "conspiracy to commit fraud" and also "tampering with state documents". This would NOT be filed against Obama, and would be distinct from his Constitutional eligibility to be President, but would rather be filed against those having produced this document.

This would not be easy. A sympathetic prosecutor and Grand Jury would have to be found.

chadhb
11-27-2008, 04:41 PM
ok, let's be more specific: in Hawaii, they're not the same thing. notice that the ones that members produced had much more information on them, like probably the doctor that delivered and the hospital, etc?

cdc example of standard here:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-ACC.pdf

the Hawaii COLB doesn't have that.

lynn

You are spouting nonsense, there are plenty of people that have posted their long form Hawaii BC.

sidster
11-27-2008, 05:01 PM
That guy is funny.

I thought he already produced the Birth Certificate...

Is this it?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/birth_certificate_2.jpg


Not quite. These two posts explain why it isn't Davvy Kidd (http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd415.htm) and
Lynn Stuter (http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter131.htm). The latter especially. Links courtesy of Theocrat
from this post (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1842708#post1842708).

CurtisLow
11-27-2008, 05:08 PM
Get down brother!

Number19
11-27-2008, 07:00 PM
The established date and place of Obama's birth is August 4, 1961 at the Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women & Children ( source : Wikipedia ). Has any attempt been made to find, or an image scanned and posted, of the standard birth certificate used by this facility during this time period, as a point of comparison? Is there a link?

lynnf
11-27-2008, 08:30 PM
You are spouting nonsense, there are plenty of people that have posted their long form Hawaii BC.


I should have said the supposed Obama COLB doesn't have that information.

lynn

Number19
11-27-2008, 09:11 PM
Lynnf, the link you provided above, for the U.S. Standard Certificate of Live Birth, is dated 2003. I have a legal exact copy of my birth certificate, from 1948 Texas, and it is different in some detail but is basically the same in form. What I'm curious about is Hawaii, in 1961, and whether all medical facilities had to use a state approved standard form.

When I recently had to renew my passport, I wasn't about to send my "original" birth certificate, so I applied for a "Certification of Vital Record". This was not a copy, nor the same in form, but most of the information on the original was contained on the recent document.

I find it strange that so little information is contained on Obama's COLB, which makes me curious about the original birth certificate.

Peace&Freedom
11-28-2008, 09:06 AM
From an argument quoted in a recent Devvy Kidd column:

...for Obama or anybody else to be eligible to be President, they must be a "natural born citizen" of the United States "at birth". It should be obvious that the Framers intended to deny the Presidency to anybody who was a British subject "at birth". If this had not been their intention, then they would not have needed to include a grandfather clause which allowed the Framers themselves to be President.

"If you click through to Factcheck.org, a more detailed discussion as to why Obama was a British citizen at birth explains the relevant statutes:

"When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom's dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.'s children:

"British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth.

"In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.' "

"The article goes on to state that Obama's British citizenship was transferred to Kenya as Kenya became independent from the UK and that Obama's Kenyan citizenship expired when he turned 21 years old. But none of that is relevant since the Constitution requires that every President be a "natural born citizen". The word "born" is proof positive that the status must be present "at birth". If this were not the case, then, as stated above, the Framers would not have needed to put in a grandfather clause.

"The Framers recognized that even they were not "natural born citizens" and so they wrote the grandfather clause in to allow any of them to become President. But the grandfather clause only pertains to those who were Citizens at the time of the Constitution's adoption. And so, Barack Obama is not a "natural born citizen" of the United States..."

http://newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd415.htm