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Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 05:16 AM
The Triumph of Imperial Christianity


by Laurence M. Vance (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/mailto:lmvance@juno.com)




"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian." ~ Mark Twain

John McCain may have lost the election, but some of his core beliefs are alive and well among the majority of conservative Christians. True, some of these Christians had their doubts about the genuineness of McCain’s pro-life position, his devotion to real conservative values, his faithfulness to the Constitution, and his commitment to reducing wasteful government spending, but there was one principle that they were sure of: McCain is a war hero who served his country in the military, supported the war in Iraq, and would make an ideal choice for a commander in chief to lead the U.S. military in the perpetual war against Islamofascism.

It is bad enough that McCain is an unrepentant war criminal (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance149.html), but it is even worse that he is an incorrigible militarist, imperialist, interventionist, and all-around warmonger who thinks that there is no job in the world too small for the U.S. military. This is the man who jokes about killing Persians with bombs and cigarettes (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0832180920080709). This is the man who told a reporter (http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/01/6735_mccain_in_nh_wo.html) that U.S. troops "could be in Iraq for ‘a thousand years’ or ‘a million years,’ as far as he was concerned." This is the man who wants to start another cold war (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12500.html) with Russia. Yet, instead of rejecting McCain outright, many conservative Christians supported him until the bitter end.

But it is not just Christian support for McCain that signals the triumph of imperial Christianity. Every Republican presidential candidate, with the exception of Ron Paul, supported Bush’s wars and the aggressive, reckless, meddling, militaristic, and imperialistic evil that is U.S. foreign policy. Conservative Christians would have gotten behind any Republican who received the nomination now matter how much he supported war and militarism.

The election was certainly a repudiation George Bush and the Republican Party. However, it was generally not conservative Christians who did the repudiating. McCain, after all, still received 46 percent of the vote. Many of the 58 million people who voted for McCain had to be conservative Christians. They certainly didn’t vote for Obama. A small percentage probably voted for Baldwin. A smaller percentage probably voted for Barr. An even smaller percentage probably voted for no one since voting is generally considered a "sacred duty" and it was such a "historic" election.

But instead of rejecting war, empire, militarism, imperialism, an aggressive foreign policy, and the warfare state with its suppression of civil liberties and destruction of the economy, many Christians openly embraced these things in the person of John McCain. Now, not every Christian who voted for McCain openly embraces these things, and especially those who fought back a gag reflex and cast their vote for McCain because they thought, sincerely but sincerely wrong, that he was the lesser of two evils. The problem with this latter group, however, is that the war was not even an issue, even among those who voted for McCain for the sole reason that he was more pro-life than Obama.

The terrible truth is that the vast majority of conservative Christians who voted in the recent election were not the least bit concerned about just war theory, U.S. foreign policy, the morality of the war in Iraq, the conduct of American soldiers in Iraq, the wedding parties in Afghanistan destroyed by the U.S. Air Force, the CIA’s extraordinary rendition program, the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, the dead, maimed, homeless, and orphaned Iraqi children, the thousands of American troops that died for a lie, the number of devastated American military families, a trillion-dollar-a-year defense budget, the proper role of the U.S. military, domestic spying programs in the name of fighting terrorism, the loss of civil liberties in the name of national security, or the open-ended perpetual war on terror.

The election is historic all right. Even though McCain lost, the election still marks the triumph of imperial Christianity over biblical Christianity.

Imperial Christians have a warped view of what it means to be pro-life. I have had Christians tell me that they despise everything about McCain, including his warmongering, but that they voted for him anyway because he was more pro-life than Obama. But don’t adults and foreigners have the same right to life as unborn American babies? There should be no difference between being for abortion and for war. Both result in the death of innocents. Both are unnecessary. Both cause psychological harm to the one who signs a consent form or fires a weapon. Why is it that an American doctor in a white coat is considered a murderer if he kills an unborn baby, but an American soldier in a uniform is considered a hero if he kills an adult?

Imperial Christians have a warped view of the military. Although many of these Christians may criticize the government, they have nothing but praise for the military. They equate U.S. soldiers killing for the state in some foreign war that has nothing to do with defending the United States as defending our freedoms. They publicly honor veterans who bombed, maimed, and killed Vietnamese, Cambodians, Afghans, and Iraqis that were no threat to them, their families, or Americans (until the United States invaded their country), as war heroes, not only on every national holiday, but on special "military appreciation" days as well. Yet, aside from the ministry, they think there is no higher calling for a Christian young person than military service – even though the military spends more time securing the borders, guarding the shores, patrolling the coasts, and protecting the skies of other countries than it does in defense of the United States. Christian soldiers are expected to blindly follow their leaders when it comes to the latest country to bomb or invade. To question the morality of their orders is to question God.

Imperial Christians have a warped view of patriotism. McCain appealed to the militaristic, nationalistic impulses of the Republican base. This, to the everlasting shame of Christians, is the home of the Religious Right. To imperial Christians, patriotism is supporting militarism, imperialism, xenophobism, and especially, nationalism. Patriotism is love of country; nationalism is love of state. Patriotism results in love for the people of one’s country; nationalism results in unconditional allegiance to the government of one’s country. The patriot knows his country isn’t always right and seeks to change its policies; the nationalist thinks his country is always right and that those who seek a change in policy are traitors. Government tools of propaganda used to get young men to fight have always been the same: nationalism and religion. And what a deadly combination they are.

Imperial Christians have a warped view of Christianity.

Aggression, violence, and bloodshed are contrary to the very nature of Christianity. And so is defending, making excuses for, condoning, encouraging, and supporting evil – even if it is committed by one’s government. Although God commanded the nation of Israel in the Old Testament to fight against heathen nations (Judges 6:16), the president of the United States is not God, America is not the nation of Israel, the U.S. military is not the Lord’s army, the Christian’s sword is the word of God, and the only warfare the New Testament encourages the Christian to wage is against the world, the flesh, and the devil. The Gospel of Luke alone records an exchange between our Lord and his disciples that is relevant to the conduct of some conservative Christians today:

And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9:51–56)
Christians who call for U.S. air strikes on some uncooperative Iraqi or Afghan village know not what spirit they are of. It is certainly not the Holy Spirit. Christian pulpits all across this land are dripping with blood, and it is not the blood of Christ. We hear more from pulpits today justifying American military intervention in the Middle East than we do about the need for American missionaries to go there. Our churches have supplied more soldiers to the Middle East than missionaries. Can you imagine the Roman army in the days of the early church recruiting from Christian churches? It is sad that the unregenerate soldier kills on behalf of the state; it is tragic when one who professes the name of Christ does likewise.

I am not optimistic about reversing the triumph of imperial Christianity. Not when blind acceptance of government propaganda, willful ignorance of U.S. foreign policy, and childish devotion to the military is the norm among conservative Christians instead of the exception.

For further reading on the subject of imperial Christianity, see G. J. Heering,The Fall of Christianity: A Study of Christianity, the State, and War (http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Christianity-study-state-war/dp/B000KOXIHI/lewrockwell/) (Fellowship Publications, 1943); Anne C. Loveland, American Evangelicals and the U.S. Military 1942–1993 (http://www.amazon.com/American-Evangelicals-U-S-Military-1942-1993/dp/080712091X/lewrockwell/) (Louisiana State University Press, 1996); and Andrew J. Bacevich,The New American Militarism: How Americans Are Seduced by War (http://www.amazon.com/New-American-Militarism-Americans-Seduced/dp/0195311981/lewrockwell/) (Oxford, 2005).


November 17, 2008


Laurence M. Vance [send him mail (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/mailto:lmvance@juno.com)] writes from Pensacola, FL. His latest book is a new and greatly expanded edition of Christianity and War and Other Essays Against the Warfare State (http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Other-Essays-Against-Warfare/dp/0976344858/lewrockwell/). Visit his website (http://www.vancepublications.com/).


Copyright © 2008 LewRockwell.com


Laurence M. Vance Archives (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance-arch.html)


http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance155.html

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 05:37 AM
The World's Most Dangerous Book
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1716356#post1716356 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1716356#post1716356)

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 08:09 AM
bump for "New Posts" :p

tonesforjonesbones
11-18-2008, 08:11 AM
Well, you have to realize that the people were duped into believing there was a real threat to the USA with 911. That was justification for the war. Christians have also been brainwashed through their ministers who are many times false prophets, to believe we MUST protect Israel at all costs because the Bible tells us so. They have forgotten the originil tenets of Christian beliefs. There is a whole lot of brainwashing going on everywhere ...it's circular logic...it causes people to run after their tails. This is part of the Hegelian Dialectic...the communists have been using this on us for years. It's almost impossible to get out of it. Psychological Operations. Tones

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 08:16 AM
Well, you have to realize that the people were duped into believing there was a real threat to the USA with 911. That was justification for the war. Christians have also been brainwashed through their ministers who are many times false prophets, to believe we MUST protect Israel at all costs because the Bible tells us so. They have forgotten the originil tenets of Christian beliefs. There is a whole lot of brainwashing going on everywhere ...it's circular logic...it causes people to run after their tails. This is part of the Hegelian Dialectic...the communists have been using this on us for years. It's almost impossible to get out of it. Psychological Operations. Tones

Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be.

The ends do NOT justify the means.

tonesforjonesbones
11-18-2008, 08:23 AM
Truth...these people are patriotic Americans...they think they are doing the right thing. We can't forget that..they are not evil...they are just deep in the matrix. It takes a very brave person to step out of that comfort zone. Our task is to help them by being nice to them, and change hearts and minds. Everyone is not ready to evolve at the same time. Tones

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 08:28 AM
Truth...these people are patriotic Americans...they think they are doing the right thing. We can't forget that..they are not evil...they are just deep in the matrix. It takes a very brave person to step out of that comfort zone. Our task is to help them by being nice to them, and change hearts and minds. Everyone is not ready to evolve at the same time. Tones

Our species is "stuck" in barbarism due in large part to the perpetuation of some of our barbaric human institutions.<IMHO> The two major ones, CHURCH and STATE. ;)

tonesforjonesbones
11-18-2008, 08:38 AM
Unfortunately, like nuclear power, religion can be used for good or for evil. I am a Christian and actually, there is no requirement to attend a church. Most of those churches are only concerned with the tithes. Lets fill the pews..mo money...I'm quite sure that was not the intention...but it has become big business. sigh. I go to my Bible, I don't need a minister to tell me his version of what it says. I honestly don't believe the founders had an issue with religion itself, but with the "churches". If you read the teachings of Jesus, you can find great things in it. Have you read the teachings of Jesus? Jesus stood against the organized religion of His day...the Pharisees who had corrupted Gods word for their own power. Tones

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 09:02 AM
Unfortunately, like nuclear power, religion can be used for good or for evil. I am a Christian and actually, there is no requirement to attend a church. Most of those churches are only concerned with the tithes. Lets fill the pews..mo money...I'm quite sure that was not the intention...but it has become big business. sigh. I go to my Bible, I don't need a minister to tell me his version of what it says. I honestly don't believe the founders had an issue with religion itself, but with the "churches". If you read the teachings of Jesus, you can find great things in it. Have you read the teachings of Jesus? Jesus stood against the organized religion of His day...the Pharisees who had corrupted Gods word for their own power. Tones

Yep, I've read Jesus. In my teens, I was on a minister career path. ;)

I still like Jesus. Christianity, on the other hand, created and institutionalized by the Roman Empire, is and has merely been a barbaric scourge and blight on mankind.<IMHO>

If I were Satan, hypothetically speaking only, I think I'd just hang out and hide out in the "Christian" CHURCH.

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

heavenlyboy34
11-18-2008, 09:30 AM
bump for "New Posts" :p

Still reading it...it looks pretty interesting. :D I'll comment later.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
11-18-2008, 09:37 AM
Well, you have to realize that the people were duped into believing there was a real threat to the USA with 911. That was justification for the war. Christians have also been brainwashed through their ministers who are many times false prophets, to believe we MUST protect Israel at all costs because the Bible tells us so. They have forgotten the originil tenets of Christian beliefs. There is a whole lot of brainwashing going on everywhere ...it's circular logic...it causes people to run after their tails. This is part of the Hegelian Dialectic...the communists have been using this on us for years. It's almost impossible to get out of it. Psychological Operations. Tones

Rule #3. Never blame the people.
A positive government, a nation which ideally sits together at one national dinner-table, entails that the commoners (We the people . . .) not only have the power to grant liberty to the slave to come to the dinner table, but that they also have the power to bind the master to remain seated at that same table or else divorce him or her from it.
This is the only power that one should expect of commoners while any expansion of it only dilutes the potency of their limited authority.

tonesforjonesbones
11-18-2008, 09:38 AM
Well Truth, I try to live by the teachings of Jesus as best this human can. I stopped going to organized churches for the very reason you have stated. I only need my Bible. I do like to listen to bible study with Arnold Murray, he goes chapter by chapter, verse by verse..and STICKS to the bible. He says a lot about "bible thumpers" lol..he is not well liked by many other ministers because he calls them out. www.shepherdschapel.org Rev. murray dosn't pass the basket. he says "give if you can". He told the seniors they are not required by the Word to tithe 10% of their checks....he said if you have nothing how can you give? He sent those other ministers into orbit LOL. tones

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 09:50 AM
Well Truth, I try to live by the teachings of Jesus as best this human can. I stopped going to organized churches for the very reason you have stated. I only need my Bible. I do like to listen to bible study with Arnold Murray, he goes chapter by chapter, verse by verse..and STICKS to the bible. He says a lot about "bible thumpers" lol..he is not well liked by many other ministers because he calls them out. www.shepherdschapel.org (http://www.shepherdschapel.org) Rev. murray dosn't pass the basket. he says "give if you can". He told the seniors they are not required by the Word to tithe 10% of their checks....he said if you have nothing how can you give? He sent those other ministers into orbit LOL. tones As do I. ;) That's a big part of the reason that I do NOT vote for the STATE, nor attend the Christian CHURCH.

The Golden Rule, ROCKS! :D WWJD?


"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi

tonesforjonesbones
11-18-2008, 10:01 AM
I agree with that. I consider those mega churches big business. Can you imagine how much those ministers make???? Even here in my town The First National (Baptist) Church has now expanded to the whole block..they gave the minister a 10,000 dollar christmas bonus last year..all donations. Crazyyyy just crazy. I will say this though. They help the poor. They have food banks and if you cant pay your utility bill..they will pay it for you. Look at the Salvation Army...now get this. I have a friend in jacksonville Florida , i went to University of North Florida with her in the jazz program. Her aunt's boyfriend was the head guy at the huge salvation army store there. Someone donated a whole bunch of instruments..all kinds of horns, to the salvation army. He called my friend to come and look at them and estimate the value of them..(she was a very good trombonist). She said she went back a couple of days later and all those horns were GONE. She is positive he took them and sold them and kept the money...there was no way he could have sold them that quickly. Typical example of a crook taking advantage of a good organization. tones

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 10:14 AM
I agree with that. I consider those mega churches big business. Can you imagine how much those ministers make???? Even here in my town The First National (Baptist) Church has now expanded to the whole block..they gave the minister a 10,000 dollar christmas bonus last year..all donations. Crazyyyy just crazy. I will say this though. They help the poor. They have food banks and if you cant pay your utility bill..they will pay it for you. Look at the Salvation Army...now get this. I have a friend in jacksonville Florida , i went to University of North Florida with her in the jazz program. Her aunt's boyfriend was the head guy at the huge salvation army store there. Someone donated a whole bunch of instruments..all kinds of horns, to the salvation army. He called my friend to come and look at them and estimate the value of them..(she was a very good trombonist). She said she went back a couple of days later and all those horns were GONE. She is positive he took them and sold them and kept the money...there was no way he could have sold them that quickly. Typical example of a crook taking advantage of a good organization. tones

I can't help but wonder just how many of the most prominent "Christian" ( so called ) ministers are also high-level Freemasons? :rolleyes:

"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian." ~ Mark Twain

tonesforjonesbones
11-18-2008, 10:24 AM
Probably some. Many are just members...I know some of them here. I did go to see Sarah Palin with a friend whose husband is very high up in the freemasons...she is in the Daughters of the nile which actually is the women's branch of the shriners. Boy, she told me she studies the kabalah..and believes the Di Vinci code stuff...that Mary and Jesus were married and had a child...wow. I had the heebie jeebies for the rest of the trip! tones

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 10:29 AM
Probably some. Many are just members...I know some of them here. I did go to see Sarah Palin with a friend whose husband is very high up in the freemasons...she is in the Daughters of the nile which actually is the women's branch of the shriners. Boy, she told me she studies the kabalah..and believes the Di Vinci code stuff...that Mary and Jesus were married and had a child...wow. I had the heebie jeebies for the rest of the trip! tones Trust your instincts and intuition, in situations like that.<IMHO> They are trying to warn you.

Almost everything "institutional" tends to really give me the creeps. :eek:

tonesforjonesbones
11-18-2008, 10:34 AM
I know what you mean..and i agree...I am almost a recluse these days choosing to fight my battles on the internet. I have no patience and there is no time ...Michael Badnarik has a notebook with the Stars and Stripes upside down...I agree ..we are in severe distress. tones

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
11-18-2008, 10:38 AM
Probably some. Many are just members...I know some of them here. I did go to see Sarah Palin with a friend whose husband is very high up in the freemasons...she is in the Daughters of the nile which actually is the women's branch of the shriners. Boy, she told me she studies the kabalah..and believes the Di Vinci code stuff...that Mary and Jesus were married and had a child...wow. I had the heebie jeebies for the rest of the trip! tones

Do you fellows even understand the concept of modern positive government? Socrates? How Socrates demonstrated that the mind of a slave could learn to improve itself when helped by a serving teacher (midwife philosopher)? Socrates noble idea of "recollection?" How human souls once knew everything but then lost that knowledge during the trauma of their rebirthing? How all souls were equal in perfection prior to their births before they were born into a society of masters and slaves?
How a primitive caste system of masters and slaves could advance itself to that of a modern nation if teachers would be willing to both train the prince to take his rightful place of his father on the throne, as the private schools of the rich, and serve the peasants to improve the quality of their lives, the creation of public schools?

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 10:41 AM
I know what you mean..and i agree...I am almost a recluse these days choosing to fight my battles on the internet. I have no patience and there is no time ...Michael Badnarik has a notebook with the Stars and Stripes upside down...I agree ..we are in severe distress. tones


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/nwo-logo_130x.gif

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
11-18-2008, 11:31 AM
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/nwo-logo_130x.gif

Christianity is divided into Catholics who worship the Pope's rituals as God's authority and Protestants who worship the Word of Jesus Christ in the bible as God's authority. Then one has those Christians who do not believe that Christ was the Holy Trinity but only a prophet.
So, your argument generalizes Christians into a ball of wax.

You assume that the secularized Christian system we have will function best when manned by atheistic people. Yet, Frederick Nietzsche warned that a moral appearing system is only as moral as the morality of the people who operate it.

Why assume that atheist people will be moral?

Peace&Freedom
11-18-2008, 11:41 AM
Fat, indolent, imperialist 'Christians' of this country have a warped view of the military stemming from being insulated by two oceans and two relatively friendly borders from the effects of war. Though the productive knew this allowed us to mind our own business and grow economically without entagling alliances, the militarists viewed it as an ideal base from which run war operations around the world.

Too many retain a "we've never lost a war" mentality, which while false (Vietnam) still feels true, because our country never lost a war and saw the damage here. Other than the wars with Britain and the internal war between the states, we've not seen our cities devastated by bombs and tanks, certainly not from a modern war. Unfortunately, it may take that kind of first hand look to shake the war Christians out of their video game virtual reality view of war.

sailor
11-18-2008, 12:02 PM
Christianity is divided into Catholics who worship the Pope's rituals as God's authority and Protestants who worship the Word of Jesus Christ in the bible as God's authority.

Christianity is divided into the Catholics and the Orthodox. Then you also have some deluded heretics calling themselves "Protestsant Christians" that we have not jet gotten around to burning at the stake.

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 12:11 PM
Christianity is divided into Catholics who worship the Pope's rituals as God's authority and Protestants who worship the Word of Jesus Christ in the bible as God's authority. Then one has those Christians who do not believe that Christ was the Holy Trinity but only a prophet.
So, your argument generalizes Christians into a ball of wax.

You assume that the secularized Christian system we have will function best when manned by atheistic people. Yet, Frederick Nietzsche warned that a moral appearing system is only as moral as the morality of the people who operate it.

Why assume that atheist people will be moral? I assume nothing. I've known some atheists and most of those were moral. Much more so than a lot of ( so called ) "Christians" that I also know. Hypocrisy in religion, as also in politics, is no stranger. ;)

Dark_Horse_Rider
11-18-2008, 12:23 PM
...

Aratus
11-18-2008, 12:28 PM
the header almost looked like as if this thread was about to go into remarks and theories about the gnostic christians... and the hidden books... all prior to constantine's conversion...

tonesforjonesbones
11-18-2008, 12:31 PM
the gnostic christians came about 100 years after the Gospels were written, they came out of Babylon and are rooted in the kaballah. THAT is why they are considered a cult group. They believe in that illuminati stuff..tones

Aratus
11-18-2008, 12:35 PM
CONSTANTINE THE GREAT is the grandson of IMPERATOR CLAUDIUS THE SECOND!

Aratus
11-18-2008, 12:36 PM
lets impeach bush and cheney both for being idiots or venal or worse!

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 12:38 PM
the header almost looked like as if this thread was about to go into remarks and theories about the gnostic christians... and the hidden books... all prior to constantine's conversion... I think the "Imperial" is merely a reference to the Roman Empire and the subsequent "Holy" Roman Empire. ;)

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 12:41 PM
lets impeach bush and cheney both for being idiots or venal or worse! Where did you find THAT prohibition in the US Constitution? :D Past establishing precedents are strong. ;)

Aratus
11-18-2008, 12:43 PM
bush is total wus... had he a conversion deeper than saul to paul, or constantine's presumed pagan jove ideas to things by custom christian, all our public building with their nice golden age of greece inspired architecture would be torn down, recycled and converted into nice roman arch churches in a nicely quaint almost medieval manner... next our potus/imperator would re-invent feudalism and mercantilism. g.w bush is an inept idiot where-upon andrew johnson and herbert hoover are actually more civic minded in a good way... thah "W" is a walking hypocracy of a despotism at times...

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 12:46 PM
bush is total wus... had he a conversion deeper than saul to paul, or constantine's presumed pagan jove ideas to things by custom christian, all our public building with their nice golden age of greece inspired architecture would be torn down, recycled and converted into nice roman arch churches in a nicely quaint almost medieval manner... next our potus/imperator would re-invent feudalism and mercantilism. g.w bush is an inept idiot where-upon andrew johnson and herbert hoover are actually more civic minded in a good way... thah "W" is a walking hypocracy of a despotism at times... Whew! I'm sure glad that I didn't vote for him. :D

Aratus
11-18-2008, 12:48 PM
i actually feel sorry for andrew johnson. presidents should have fun when they fire people, they should be able to evict a hack upon occasion from a gov't office. he did say he'd veto the bills he did, and if the senate and house wanted certain bills and/or amendments to become law... heck, if he FAILs to do a "john hancock" like a puppet... okayyyyy folks! there had better be the VOTES, always...

as to the concise definition of the word "IS" ...or RMN and ol' IKE... i can go on for hours! i remember watergate...

Aratus
11-18-2008, 12:51 PM
g.w bush lies lies lies lies to the evangelicals... [sometimes i am thinking of bob barr's and chuck baldwin's people here... or the huck-army!]

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 12:55 PM
g.w bush lies lies lies lies to the evangelicals... [sometimes i am thinking of bob barr's and chuck baldwin's people here... or the huck-army!] He just learned how POTUS Bubba, before him, got away with it. As will the Kenyan POTUS.

Truth Warrior
11-19-2008, 05:29 AM
I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood.
George Carlin

Truth Warrior
11-19-2008, 07:24 AM
Romans 13, v. 1-7 (KJV)
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.



"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

tremendoustie
11-19-2008, 08:22 AM
I can't help but wonder just how many of the most prominent "Christian" ( so called ) ministers are also high-level Freemasons? :rolleyes:

"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian." ~ Mark Twain

Let me just say this -- I understand Twain's point, but he's got it backwards. If Christ were here now he would demonstrate what a real Christian is, and make many who call themselves Christians look like phonies.

It's something like saying, if Jefferson were here today there is one thing he would not be: A patriot. No, if Jefferson were here today he would promote true patriotism, and point out the absurdity of the phony warmongering type.

It is right to be a patriot, but not a phony patriot, and it is right to be a Christian (i.e. follow Christ), but not a phony Christian.

That said, I see where Twain and Ghandi were coming from, and it really saddens me.

Truth Warrior
11-19-2008, 08:55 AM
Let me just say this -- I understand Twain's point, but he's got it backwards. If Christ were here now he would demonstrate what a real Christian is, and make many who call themselves Christians look like phonies.

It's something like saying, if Jefferson were here today there is one thing he would not be: A patriot. No, if Jefferson were here today he would promote true patriotism, and point out the absurdity of the phony warmongering type.

It is right to be a patriot, but not a phony patriot, and it is right to be a Christian (i.e. follow Christ), but not a phony Christian.

That said, I see where Twain and Ghandi were coming from, and it really saddens me. I think Jesus would say, "From the Roman Empire? Ya gotta be kidding me! Paul, I NEVER knew you! :p"

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
11-19-2008, 03:27 PM
Christianity is divided into the Catholics and the Orthodox. Then you also have some deluded heretics calling themselves "Protestsant Christians" that we have not jet gotten around to burning at the stake.

The Catholics reject the Word of God in the bible as secondary in importance to the religious rituals that have been created by the authority of the Pope and the Vatican; while, the Protestants reject the rituals of the Pope and the Vatican if they violate the self-evident truths that are unalienably expressed in the Holy Bible (Sound familiar?).

The why this is so, is important. The Christians were not allowed by the Pope and the Vatican to read the Bible unless it had been written in Latin. To do so could get one burned at the stake -- as you suggest. In turn, the Latin interpretation was quite poor when compared to the original Greek interpretation.

The business of tyranny in the United States has been written in a legaleeze which can only be interpreted by legal attorneys; while, the Civil-Purpose in the formal documents of The Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution were written for all human-beings to understand as self-evident and unalienable.

Martin Luther was important because he could both read Latin while the Holy Spirit revealed in him that the Latin version of Christ's Word was poorly interpreted.

Therefore, atheists are naive when they fail to differentiate between the kinds of Christians.

Truth Warrior
11-20-2008, 06:39 AM
And Christians are merely naive when they fail to remember and realize that the human institution of "Christianity" ( so called ) was merely a creation and tool of "power and control" for the Roman Empire. ;) Perpetuated largely through it's UNHOLY history by the "Holy" Roman Empire. :rolleyes: THE bool was cooked, recooked and rerecooked.


"By their fruits, ye shall know them."