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berrybunches
11-17-2008, 11:19 PM
We can not and will not win until we learn to play politics which means appealing to peoples emotions instead of their intellect. Saying "change" over and over again wins elections, ranting about banking cartels and philosophy certainly does not.

Let me quote my favorite comedian:
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are stupider than that." -George Carlin

This is why I hate politics and why I imagine most of us here were never involved in politics before Ron Paul. We are mostly a principled, honest and intellectual group and that believes in debate to educate, not to manipulate. We do not know how to relate to stupid people. We are thinkers and we are different from other people. We have always cared about the world. Most people are not like us, can not be appealed to like we can and certainly do not think as much as we do. Ron Paul is one of us and that's why he gave us hope. We do not see one of us in politics very often.

I guess this is all painfully obvious but I have been thinking a lot about what we can do to change our personal strategy to change minds and educate without compromising our integrity. I have a hard time with this. What are some positive tactics everyone here uses to campaign/debate on large and small scales that they see results with?

LibertyEagle
11-17-2008, 11:50 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. Playing to emotions is what wins the race.

Paulitical Correctness
11-18-2008, 12:02 AM
Let's utilize fear. Fear is the strongest emotion. Relate something to them on a personal level. For example, bitching about "the federal reserve" this and "the constitution" that isn't very helpful. Instead, find out about the individual and try to inform them by using particulars affecting their lives.

On second thought though, inducing fear is the government's forte...we'd be up against a foe with more experience and resources. How could we possibly compete with the big bad teerists?

Shit.

Sheepdog11
11-18-2008, 12:28 AM
I've thought about this more than anything as well. I think this paradox is the reason we never see people like us in politics.

I feel fortunate to be going to one of the best art schools in the country... here I learn advertising and how to win appeal of common people. Definitely useful skills for anyone in this movement to have. (I may not have as good of a job guarantee as most people, but on the other hand the video game industry (my major) does seem to be running pretty strong despite the recession. And if you remember, people during the depression turned to movies to escape their normal lives, however in modern days the video game industry behemoths the movie industry.)

Anyway, I digress, lol. We definitely have to understand and utilize the tactics of the people who gain this ridiculous support --- Obama, Hitler, Castro, anyone who has basically turned themselves into a religious icon of infinite support wherein they can do anything they wish.

That's because the common person is clueless about the real "issues"... and furthermore, they don't care! They judge on personality first, and assume that the person they dub "most confident" or "tells me what I want to hear" will fulfill their best interests in the white house.

People don't want to be told to "think for themselves". They want to be shown a person who they trust will do their thinking for them... otherwise they'd be the ones running for president in the first place!

So it's not about information AT ALL. It's about selling the people the idea that who they're voting for will do the work for their own benefit.

And THAT's a common trend in these people that gain support... Obama, Hitler, and the others ALL sold the idea that if people vote for them, they'll do the work, they'll figure out the issues, and they have the best interests of the voters in mind.

Besides the media blackout, this is why Ron Paul failed. He presented his desire to help the American people THROUGH the information when people didn't listen to the information in the first place.

IPSecure
11-18-2008, 12:38 AM
Between Winning and Losing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DN-fhY96p0&fmt=18)

Nate K
11-18-2008, 12:44 AM
I have an idea - let's stick to our principles. Let's not be the "Fool's Party", let's stick to the "Thinking Man's" party.

You lose the smart people when you try to round up the idiots. Forget the idiots, we need to be that haven for the people who think things over. That's how I joined the campaign - it wasn't through fear tactics.

Paulitical Correctness
11-18-2008, 12:49 AM
we need to be that haven for the people who think things over.

You reckon we have the numbers for that? I mean, I love your sentiment but it seems like we're gonna have to start playing the game. There aren't enough people out there who like thinking, so clearly the only alternative is forcing them to think using whatever tactic necessary.

Sheepdog11
11-18-2008, 12:54 AM
I have an idea - let's stick to our principles. Let's not be the "Fool's Party", let's stick to the "Thinking Man's" party.

You lose the smart people when you try to round up the idiots. Forget the idiots, we need to be that haven for the people who think things over. That's how I joined the campaign - it wasn't through fear tactics.

Read my post 2 up. The vast majority does NOT really care about facts. Proving that so and so will do this which is good for this and so on does NOT work for the majority.

Look at the amazingly eloquent people who have gained crazy support, like Obama and Hitler. They didn't do it through "facts", they did it through winning HEARTS, not MINDS.

We don't have to devalue our principles just to win people's HEARTS. Why not just do both?

Nate K
11-18-2008, 12:54 AM
You reckon we have the numbers for that? I mean, I love your sentiment but it seems like we're gonna have to start playing the game. There aren't enough people out there who like thinking, so clearly the only alternative is forcing them to think using whatever tactic necessary.

It's not easy changing a nation's philosophy the whole way around. never happens overnight, even though we need it too. Anything less than a philosophical change is just a fad, temporary and fades into memories.

What we ought to do is utilize our thinkers, we need to have some organization and think tanks. New Hampshire is a good start.

LibertyEagle
11-18-2008, 01:00 AM
I have an idea - let's stick to our principles. Let's not be the "Fool's Party", let's stick to the "Thinking Man's" party.

You lose the smart people when you try to round up the idiots. Forget the idiots, we need to be that haven for the people who think things over. That's how I joined the campaign - it wasn't through fear tactics.

No one's saying that we should give up our principles. It's the selling of them that we are talking about. I don't see a reason why we can't market our ideas, using emotion. Think about the YouTubes during the campaign and think about the ones that had the most impact on the people you showed them to. For me, hands down, it was the ones that pulled on people's emotions.

Nate K
11-18-2008, 01:01 AM
Look at all the hearts we won over during Paul's campaign, this forum was monstrous - had hundreds and hundreds of members on here at any given time. Nowadays it's about a fourth of that. They all thought this was some fad, few stuck around for the actual movement. If anything we need more people concerned about the movement than the fad.

To just vote someone in doesn't solve the problem, what we need is a shift in thinking - that can't be brought about unless we have not only educated ourselves thoroughly but then pass it on to others.

LibertyEagle
11-18-2008, 01:06 AM
You first have to draw them in, Nate.

Nate K
11-18-2008, 01:06 AM
No one's saying that we should give up our principles. It's the selling of them that we are talking about. I don't see a reason why we can't market our ideas, using emotion. Think about the YouTubes during the campaign and think about the ones that had the most impact on the people you showed them to. For me, hands down, it was the ones that pulled on people's emotions.

As long as the "emotion" was tied into the actual "facts". If we can produce more things like the Rising Tide - well i'm all for it. But emotion alone is weak.

Sheepdog11
11-18-2008, 01:06 AM
Look at all the hearts we won over during Paul's campaign, this forum was monstrous - had hundreds and hundreds of members on here at any given time. Nowadays it's about a fourth of that. They all thought this was some fad, few stuck around for the actual movement. If anything we need more people concerned about the movement than the fad.

To just vote someone in doesn't solve the problem, what we need is a shift in thinking - that can't be brought about unless we have not only educated ourselves thoroughly but then pass it on to others.

Exactly... and we can't pass it on to others by barraging them with facts. We have to warm them up through EMOTION, win their hearts first... and then make sure their minds follow.

Nate K
11-18-2008, 01:09 AM
Exactly... and we can't pass it on to others by barraging them with facts. We have to warm them up through EMOTION, win their hearts first... and then make sure their minds follow.

I can see your point but like I say it recruits the dumbest of them. It was that quiet voice that lured me into Paul. Saw evidence of enthusiasm in the area, saw a debate, witnessed his brilliance and I was in.

Go for it I surely won't stop you.

Sheepdog11
11-18-2008, 01:14 AM
I can see your point but like I say it recruits the dumbest of them. It was that quiet voice that lured me into Paul. Saw evidence of enthusiasm in the area, saw a debate, witnessed his brilliance and I was in.

Go for it I surely won't stop you.

Yeah, the people like us got lured in because it appealed to our sense of reason... but you must realize that we are anomalies.

"The dumbest of them" is like, 70% of them (being generous). And it's not that they're dumb... just duped. We have to win them over with what they know; emotion. THEN we can communicate with the facts, teach them to think for themselves... and when that happens, they aren't "dumb" at all, they're just like any of us.

yongrel
11-18-2008, 01:15 AM
Sooner or later, political naivete and inexperience will be replaced with savvy and expertise. Or we go quietly into that dark night.

tropicangela
11-18-2008, 01:30 AM
Sunshine didn't work for McCain, but sunshine, rainbows, lollipops, change, and Bob the Builder "Yes we can" worked for Obama. Maybe if we all just watch a bunch of kid shows and cartoons we'll be able to tap into something. Gotta keep it on their level ya know?

LibertyEagle
11-18-2008, 01:58 AM
As long as the "emotion" was tied into the actual "facts". If we can produce more things like the Rising Tide - well i'm all for it. But emotion alone is weak.

Of course.

berrybunches
11-18-2008, 02:02 AM
hmmm...I think Sheepdog understood what I was trying to say best.
My point was considering we are all honest and have a real desire to educate how do we do this where we can use the emotional pull while not going against our values?
emotion + facts + honesty This is why BJ Lawson was so amazing, he really had this down. He was passionate, emotional, factual, charismatic and positive - I think that was his draw for us. He took Ron Paul's message and was able to actually sell it. There is nothing dishonest about this.

I would rather stick to my principles than use manipulative techniques like the rest of you would and it is possible. Most of us here are not really wired for this though, but it must be done, we must learn it. Not just for presidential races but for issues and local candidates as well. How do we sell the "end the fed" to the masses? Things like that.

We need hard hitting honest factual 1 or 2 line summaries that we can repeat over and over again to draw on peoples emotions. Propaganda techniques are not in and of themselves evil so long as they are based in fact.

evilfunnystuff
11-18-2008, 02:17 AM
there is no simple easy 1 size fits all way to cause the paradigm shift we need

many routes can be viable to many different INDIVIDUALS

decentralization and diverse tactics are needed and should be pursued by the people who believe in those said tactics

some will be drawn in with emotion some with intellect and some maybey just for fellowship or the fad

one thing to keep in mind if you draw someone in with anything other than intellect or principal it is your duty to try your damndest to plant in them the seed of individualism and liberty and attempt to make it grow

they may not sit and listen to a long speech or lecture but if you slip it in on em bit by bit it can get frustrating and feel pointless sometimes but you will be suprised at the intelectual heights you may get them to rise to i can attest to that as there are a couple people im shocked that are finaly getting some of the core principals of liberty

that being said it is also not good to waste time on that if you feel you can do better by movin on to a more thoughtful person witch i tend to do but i change things up from time to time as i hate "routine"

heres a vid witch i feel has some good tips for first time interactions in order to bring people to the table

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_shEnY_lcQI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFGjeXQuE8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEqVHxZmkNc

evilfunnystuff
11-18-2008, 02:22 AM
"end the fed" to the masses? Things like that.

We need hard hitting honest factual 1 or 2 line summaries that we can repeat over and over again to draw on peoples emotions. Propaganda techniques are not in and of themselves evil so long as they are based in fact.

the best way ive found to get resistant people on these more complicated issues like the fed is to get them on easier thing first that they already close on with then move onto issues they are a little less willing to budge on once you have convinced them of a couple things it just makes them more ripe for the bigger ideas

incrementalism has been a good tool for the global collectivists and it can be for us as well

patience is key the didnt get us this far into the nwo overnight

Kludge
11-18-2008, 02:31 AM
There are no emotions involved in politics except for fear.

Fear of losing Change, fear of losing change, fear of a DEMOCRAT!!! or REPUBLICAN!!! in the executive branch, fear of a terrorist attack, fear of starvation, fear of children not being GIVEN opportunities, etc.

Everything else comes from the football mentality -- people talking about shit they don't know because they know nothing but seek to impress people they likely dislike and won't use. Ralph repeats the announcer's highlights of the game, and Ralph repeats the pundits' talking points. Ralph would look stupid if his team lost, and that's where the attachment of the ego comes into play. And, of course, if Ralph's team loses, it's either the referees' or some liberal/conservative trickery and deceit which was the fault.

Grimnir Wotansvolk
11-18-2008, 03:45 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. Playing to emotions is what wins the race.I still cringe when I think about Ron's weak responses to accusations of "isolationism". He blew a few great opportunities for some raw emotional appeals.

"Being so gung-ho with human lives is nothing short of demented. Our job as public servants should be to provide for the common defense, not throw our people into harms way in the name of a strategic experiment."

"If you want to talk about things like healthcare, the environment, education, and poverty, first take a look at the men and women we're sending to die over there. Every young american that returns home draped in a flag is one less person that's getting educated and working towards a better tomorrow. This war isn't only robbing us of our earnings, it's robbing us of our best and brightest."

"For every moment the men on this stage spend snickering at the notion of diplomacy and de-escalation, yet another American or Iraqi loses a loved one. As president, I won't lounge in the oval office while more of our children die, I will work tirelessly to bring them home and away from this mess our leadership has created."

"Didn't we lose enough on 9/11? Iraq has doubled the losses this country has suffered, and that's not even taking into account the untold number of innocent Iraqis who have been shrugged off as collateral damage."

"In regards to our national security, the amount of hatred that has been stirred up by our invasion puts all of America at greater risk than ever before. If there is any justice left in our government, the politicians who engage in this sort of reckless endangerment would be recognized for the criminals they are."

etc.

In our efforts, we'll really need to step up the anti-war rhetoric, as there is a lot of untapped emotion to go around.


To whom does the war bring prosperity? Not to the soldier who for the munificent compensation of $16 per month shoulders his musket and goes into the trench. there to shed his blood and to die if necessary; not to the broken-hearted widow who waits for the return of the mangled body of her husband; not to the mother who weeps at the death of her brave boy; not to the little children who shiver with cold; not to the babe who suffers from hunger; nor to the millions of mothers and daughters who carry broken hearts to their graves. War brings no prosperity to the great mass of common and patriotic citizens. It increases the cost of living of those who toil and those who already must strain every effort to keep soul and body together.

MILKMNSTR
11-18-2008, 04:02 AM
Political victory, is not something that will last.

It can; and will; change to defeat in the blink of a voter's eye.

If you win based on deception.

Resentment sets in and defeat is assured.

It took many years to for our country to get like this.

It will take many years to fix it, one heart and mind at a time.

Slow down; share your love of liberty and country, and the victory you seek will find you, sooner than you think.

MILKMNSTR
11-18-2008, 04:09 AM
Political victory, is not something that will last.

It can; and will; change to defeat in the blink of a voter's eye.

If you win based on deception.

Resentment sets in and defeat is assured.

It took many years to for our country to get like this.

It will take many years to fix it, one heart and mind at a time.

Slow down; share your love of liberty and country, and the victory you seek will find you, sooner than you think.

HOLLYWOOD
11-18-2008, 04:17 AM
There are no emotions involved in politics except for fear.

Fear of losing Change, fear of losing change, fear of a DEMOCRAT!!! or REPUBLICAN!!! in the executive branch, fear of a terrorist attack, fear of starvation, fear of children not being GIVEN opportunities, etc.

Everything else comes from the football mentality -- people talking about shit they don't know because they know nothing but seek to impress people they likely dislike and won't use. Ralph repeats the announcer's highlights of the game, and Ralph repeats the pundits' talking points. Ralph would look stupid if his team lost, and that's where the attachment of the ego comes into play. And, of course, if Ralph's team loses, it's either the referees' or some liberal/conservative trickery and deceit which was the fault.

Hate/Angry is another... seems both parties play the hate/anger card on the people.

It all comes down to SALES & MARKETING... remember that 100% of all statistics can be made to say anything, 50-100% of the time.

The toughest obstacle to overcome is Money and Media... control both, you win. Just look at all the money that went into selling the Bailout bill or Barack's campaign.

Anti Federalist
11-18-2008, 04:31 AM
hmmm...I think Sheepdog understood what I was trying to say best.
My point was considering we are all honest and have a real desire to educate how do we do this where we can use the emotional pull while not going against our values?
emotion + facts + honesty This is why BJ Lawson was so amazing, he really had this down. He was passionate, emotional, factual, charismatic and positive - I think that was his draw for us. He took Ron Paul's message and was able to actually sell it. There is nothing dishonest about this.

I would rather stick to my principles than use manipulative techniques like the rest of you would and it is possible. Most of us here are not really wired for this though, but it must be done, we must learn it. Not just for presidential races but for issues and local candidates as well. How do we sell the "end the fed" to the masses? Things like that.

We need hard hitting honest factual 1 or 2 line summaries that we can repeat over and over again to draw on peoples emotions. Propaganda techniques are not in and of themselves evil so long as they are based in fact.

And BJ Lawson lost, badly.

Playing to emotions is incompatible with the "freedom" message, since understanding and responding to that message requires thought, principles and dedication. This is a direct dichotomy of emotional reaction, which requires none of those, just simply a response, whether it be fear, "hope" or what have you.

Living life as an adult and making critical life choices on emotional whims alone is childish. And that is the mind of most of our fellow citizens, they are as children, closing a blind eye to dangers as if closing their eyes to it will make it go away.

Separation is the only answer.

Truth Warrior
11-18-2008, 06:49 AM
Politics Is a Sociopathic Cult (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer96.html)

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html (http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html)



"We shall get nowhere until we start by recognizing that political behavior is largely non-rational, that the world is suffering from some kind of mental disease which must be diagnosed before it can be cured. " -- George Orwell

tropicangela
11-18-2008, 08:22 AM
People are too scared to wake up. They feel ignorance is bliss and they would rather go along not really knowing the truth. The facts scare them. For them to accept facts, they have to accept that it wasn't all the Bush Administration's fault like they believe.

Fear didn't work for McCain or Rudy. People don't want to be scared. They want someone to make them feel warm and fuzzy inside. For people like us, that warm and fuzzy feeling came from Paul because I think we are more intelligent and braver than them LOL. We're like night & day. When I go out in public, I feel so isolated and alone because they are so clueless and just want change. The conversations that I have with people are like talking to walls. When we talk about the bailout, etc, they ask, "Well what should we do? Nothing?" all angry-like. And they feel that doing nothing is wrong and the life support is right.

During the primaries, my dearest loved ones who like what Paul was saying said, "He won't win because he is too real." And I now believe they are closet kool aid drinkers of change.

berrybunches
11-18-2008, 08:53 AM
I will reply to more posts when I have time later but political messages/campaigns can have emotional pulls that have nothing to do with anger or fear, this is why I brought up BJ Lawson, also Ron Paul got me emotionally charged. BJ got a lot of support for having a possitive message, he lost but that was for many reasons. Maybe he will always lose but he still managed to spread the message better than any one of us here has individually. Its not about winning races, I meant winning people to our side in general.

raystone
11-18-2008, 09:00 AM
Let's utilize fear. Fear is the strongest emotion. Relate something to them on a personal level. For example, bitching about "the federal reserve" this and "the constitution" that isn't very helpful. Instead, find out about the individual and try to inform them by using particulars affecting their lives.




Creating fear is the answer..

I've started writing and drawing a fear campaign. Here's a very crude idea of one of the cartoons....



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3281/3040459599_bd7b6c0f22_o.jpg

constituent
11-18-2008, 09:26 AM
Or we go quietly into that dark night.

...real gone

raystone
11-18-2008, 09:33 AM
One more, this isn't exactly accurate, but it gets the point across...


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3243/3041374026_a85f3d3115_o.jpg

JohnJay
11-18-2008, 09:58 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. Playing to emotions is what wins the race.


We can play the emotions game too -
and the faux politicians like Muck Hickabee playing to the Faux News Network sometimes stirs up all of our emotions right back at them.

http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/panamajohn/original.jpg