If Ron Paul loses, I'm leaving the country.

[Korey Kaczynski]

...because I feel like a foreigner in the country I was born in.

Any ideas what's a tolerable place to live in? I would like something with decent gun laws (sort of a litmus test), and fairly lax regulations regarding my own life. Unfortunately, I don't think anywhere in the world is like that. It seems the entire world was listening when Marx uttered his bullshit :(.

Any ideas?

[JoshLowry]

You could move to a state with like minded people and get the state to secede from the United States. :p

[Korey Kaczynski]

You could move to a state with like minded people and get the state to secede from the United States. :p

Hah, that sounds nice too. Maybe I'd have to wait for the foretold economic collapse when things are ripe for reform.

[axiomata]

You could move to a state with like minded people and get the state to secede from the United States. :p
I know this isn't really on topic, but this is the only issue that I can think of that many libertarians deem lawful/right that I strongly disagree with. I have not seen a good argument as to why a state should be able to annul their membership in the union for any non-excruciating reason. People of course are free to leave the country or move to a state hoping to become a majority there but the concept of succession just seems to go against everything a federated republic is.

http://www.usa-patriotism.com/speeches/dwebster1.htm

[Captain Shays]

I have two choices if Ron Paul doesn't get elected.

1) Leave the country

2) build a bunker and hunker down with my stockpile of food and ammo with as many like minded patriots that I can find.

It will come down to an armed revolution if we can't do this in the ballot box. Mark my words

This is it. Its may very well be our last chance to preserve liberty and sovereignty as a nation.

[Korey Kaczynski]

I know this isn't really on topic, but this is the only issue that I can think of that many libertarians deem lawful/right that I strongly disagree with. I have not seen a good argument as to why a state should be able to annul their membership in the union for any non-excruciating reason. People of course are free to leave the country or move to a state hoping to become a majority there but the concept of succession just seems to go against everything a federated republic is.

http://www.usa-patriotism.com/speeches/dwebster1.htm

Hmm, have you seen the state of our country? I think that's an excruciating reason.

[austinphish]

I know this isn't really on topic, but this is the only issue that I can think of that many libertarians deem lawful/right that I strongly disagree with. I have not seen a good argument as to why a state should be able to annul their membership in the union for any non-excruciating reason. People of course are free to leave the country or move to a state hoping to become a majority there but the concept of succession just seems to go against everything a federated republic is.

http://www.usa-patriotism.com/speeches/dwebster1.htm

It is a State's Constitutional right to secede. Just because the all powerful Union came crashing down, doesn't mean that it was unconstitutional.

If you read Ron Paul, you will know that he thinks the American Civil War should never have been fought.

[tsoldrin]

I have seen no place which is perfect for escape. If you had enough people gathered, you might start a flotilla city-state on the high seas. If it were profitable enough you could eventually manufacture artificial islands like they're doing in dubai. Personally, I'm planning the hunker down approach. Though, I think folks that take that route will end up being an anomally under the new structure which will certainly have only two classes... the elite and the serfs.

[Kregener]

Don't run...you will just die tired.

If you let them run you out of the country of your birth against your will, you have ceded your natural rights, and totally missed the intent of the 2nd Amendment.

[austinphish]

http://www.stateofworldliberty.org/report/results.html

[aravoth]

I won't leave. I will take it back, by any means available. When asked by my child, "what were you doing when facism came to this country". I refuse to honestly say that I sat back, and let it happen, that I participated in it.

One person can't do everything, but no-one when speaking of me will ever be able to say that I didn't do all that I could.

[mdh]

You could move to a state with like minded people and get the state to secede from the United States. :p

I seem to remember the last secession attempt not going so well. Something about Charleston SC and Atlanta GA burning... >.>

[X_805]

I haven't fully formed my opinion on secession, but I do know that the original British colonies in the Americas did essentially secede from Britain. So are we suggesting that we had no right to break away from Britain when we revolted?

I still have some research to do on that.

[beermotor]

...because I feel like a foreigner in the country I was born in.

Any ideas what's a tolerable place to live in? I would like something with decent gun laws (sort of a litmus test), and fairly lax regulations regarding my own life. Unfortunately, I don't think anywhere in the world is like that. It seems the entire world was listening when Marx uttered his bullshit :(.

Any ideas?


Most countries are very hard to get into. I personally love Iceland (not sure how they are on gun laws, then again, you don't need 'em). You could probably do fairly well in Northern Canada, though. Honestly, Alaska probably ain't a bad choice either, if you just want to be left alone.

[dude58677]

Mauritius

[Korey Kaczynski]

Most countries are very hard to get into. I personally love Iceland (not sure how they are on gun laws, then again, you don't need 'em). You could probably do fairly well in Northern Canada, though. Honestly, Alaska probably ain't a bad choice either, if you just want to be left alone.

A deserted tropical island sounds good :)

[beermotor]

I love the Internet too much. :) Iceland it is!

[Bojangleman]

One word: Montana!

http://www.freestateproject.org/archives/state_reports/montana3

[Korey Kaczynski]

One word: Montana!

http://www.freestateproject.org/archives/state_reports/montana3

I'll have to follow my namesake. :D

[winston84]

Living in southern California; immigration is a hot topic for me. If Ron Paul does not win, thus allowing for the so-called "Immigration Reform" to pass, I will eventually be moving to Oregon.

Ironically enough, Oregon's immigration laws are even more lax than the ones here in California, but it would take several decades for any part of Oregon to look like So Cali.

[aravoth]

I live in oregon. Trust me, it's bad here. Very bad. It's only a matter of years before it gets shitty.

[giskard]

Ireland seems a nice place, except for the lack of sun......

[axiomata]

Hmm, have you seen the state of our country? I think that's an excruciating reason.

I actually misspoke (mistyped) earlier. I actually feel that secession as a means is always wrong. You either work within the system or you revolutionize the system. Webster's speech I linked to accurately makes this distinction.


It is a State's Constitutional right to secede. Just because the all powerful Union came crashing down, doesn't mean that it was unconstitutional.

If you read Ron Paul, you will know that he thinks the American Civil War should never have been fought.

Please show me where in the constitution where it says states have the right to secede. I'm aware of Paul's position, and I agree that more should have been done to avoid the Civil War, but secession is unconstitutional. States rights are all well and good, but the states aren't sovereign, it's still the people. People have the inalienable right to start a revolution, states don't have the constitutional right to secede.


I haven't fully formed my opinion on secession, but I do know that the original British colonies in the Americas did essentially secede from Britain. So are we suggesting that we had no right to break away from Britain when we revolted?

I still have some research to do on that.

They didn't secede, it is called the American Revolution for a reason. It's a nitpicking difference, but an essential one to recognize.

If anyone has not read the Webster speech I linked to, please do.

[lucky]

I say we just all move to Texas. I live there now and could up a couple of people. Then we can all just vote and run it as we see fit.

Besides all these other places are mentioning are too friggin cold. Plas we got all this cheap labor running around and we can get a few of them to make signs cheaply while we drink beer. Maybe give the cheap labor a few beers to go and put them up for us too.

[X_805]

I actually misspoke (mistyped) earlier. I actually feel that secession as a means is always wrong. You either work within the system or you revolutionize the system. Webster's speech I linked to accurately makes this distinction.

Please show me where in the constitution where it says states have the right to secede. I'm aware of Paul's position, and I agree that more should have been done to avoid the Civil War, but secession is unconstitutional. States rights are all well and good, but the states aren't sovereign, it's still the people. People have the inalienable right to start a revolution, states don't have the constitutional right to secede.

They didn't secede, it is called the American Revolution for a reason. It's a nitpicking difference, but an essential one to recognize.

If anyone has not read the Webster speech I linked to, please do.

People govern the states. People have a right to revolt. I consider secession just a fancy word for peaceful revolution, a justifiable "middle course" as Webster likes to phrase it. Unfortunately that doesn't usually happen. This right to revolution is evidenced by the first American revolution. The second one simply failed. Neither "revolution" was "legal" (quotes here are for effect, no direct quotation :p ), but we all have our own opinions over which revolts were just. (I'm still studying up on revolutions so I haven't quite formed an opinion on that just yet.) It is semantics. Please excuse my digression. We should probably be more focused on how we ourselves are going to change the government for the better if this candidate loses.

[aravoth]

The way I see it, the only states with the balls to resist whatever is coming our way, are Texas, Montana, Alaska, Idaho, and New Hampshire.

[X_805]

The way I see it, the only states with the balls to resist whatever is coming our way, are Texas, Montana, Alaska, Idaho, and New Hampshire.

Hmm... I do not know if the government of Oklahoma would, but I'm sure plenty of the people would. Sometimes I think we're more proud of our state than our country. Sometimes I think we're right. Hopefully someone is elected that can make the people proud of our national government.

[Kregener]

It is not states, but people who will resist.

[axiomata]

People govern the states. People have a right to revolt. I consider secession just a fancy word for peaceful revolution, a justifiable "middle course" as Webster likes to phrase it. Unfortunately that doesn't usually happen. This right to revolution is evidenced by the first American revolution. The second one simply failed. Neither "revolution" was "legal" (quotes here are for effect, no direct quotation :p ), but we all have our own opinions over which revolts were just. (I'm still studying up on revolutions so I haven't quite formed an opinion on that just yet.) It is semantics. Please excuse my digression. We should probably be more focused on how we ourselves are going to change the government for the better if this candidate loses.
Fair enough, my hangup was with austinphish who mentioned that secession was a constitutional right.

[SeekLiberty]

I haven't fully formed my opinion on secession, but I do know that the original British colonies in the Americas did essentially secede from Britain. So are we suggesting that we had no right to break away from Britain when we revolted?

I still have some research to do on that.

Research no further than our founding document ... The Declaration of Independence. http://constitution.org/us_doi.htm

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Shouldn't that answer anbody's question about secession?

[Shmuel Spade]

I honestly don't think we want to start an argument about secession and the Civil War. That's an incredibly contentious issue with libertarians and average Americans, with arguments on both sides. I've been doing it for years, and in every forum that this begins it simply tears people apart and starts the mudslinging and the accusations of "unAmerican!"

Let's let it die for now.

[X_805]

Let's let it die for now.

I agree. Let's get back to more pressing matters.

[Kandilynn]

Whatever happened to that Lazarus guy that was going to build a nation in the ocean?

[Kandilynn]

Whatever happened to that Lazarus guy that was going to build a nation in the ocean?

newutopia.org

[SeekLiberty]

I agree. Let's get back to more pressing matters.

What I see as pressing matters now are how we're going to help Ron Paul save and restore our American Republic.

"The American Republic is in remnant status." - Ron Paul, May 22, 2007

Def: REMNANT - a small part or portion that remains after the main part no longer exists [syn: leftover]

Every American needs to know that our "representative" Congress and Executive branch have, either irresponsibly or intentionally, destroyed our Republic to a point where it's barely recognizable.

The last remnants are the still armed Americans, the freedom of speech on the Internet, and Ron Paul telling the people the truth. These are our only hope for taking our American Republic back and restoring liberty.

It's time for every American to put their goofing around aside, and dig in to save our country right now before it's too late. We're in the final chapter to turning into a military dicatorship.

"Our government was originally designed to protect our liberties, but it has now, instead, become the usurper of those liberties." - Ron Paul

"Some of the least-noticed and least-discussed changes in the law were the changes made to the Insurrection Act of 1807 and to posse comitatus by the Defense Authorization Act of 2007. These changes pose a threat to the survival of our Republic by giving the President the power to declare martial law for as little reason as to restore public order. The 1807 act severely restricted the President in his use of the military within the United States borders, and the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 strengthened these restrictions with strict oversight by Congress. The new law allows the President to circumvent the restrictions of both laws. The Insurrection Act has now become the "Enforcement of the Laws to Restore Public Order Act.'' This is hardly a title that suggests that the authors cared about or understood the nature of a constitutional Republic.

Now, martial law can be declared not just for insurrection, but also for natural disasters, public health reasons, terrorist attacks or incidents, or for the vague reason called "other conditions.'' The President can call up the National Guard without congressional approval or the Governors' approval, and even send these State Guard troops into other States.

The American Republic is in remnant status. The stage is set for our country eventually devolving into a military dictatorship, and few seem to care. These precedent-setting changes in the law are extremely dangerous and will change American jurisprudence forever if not revised. The beneficial results of our revolt against the King's abuses are about to be eliminated, and few Members of Congress and few Americans are aware of the seriousness of the situation. Complacency and fear drive our legislation without any serious objection by our elected leaders. Sadly, though, those few who do object to this self-evident trend away from personal liberty and empire-building overseas are portrayed as unpatriotic and uncaring." - Ron Paul, May 22, 2007 Speech to Congress

[Gimme Some Truth]

...because I feel like a foreigner in the country I was born in.

Any ideas what's a tolerable place to live in? I would like something with decent gun laws (sort of a litmus test), and fairly lax regulations regarding my own life. Unfortunately, I don't think anywhere in the world is like that. It seems the entire world was listening when Marx uttered his bullshit :(.

Any ideas?

Funny you should say that. If Ron Paul wins , Im movin to the USA :)

I live in Manchester , England. Hate this damned country. People here are dead, Poltically. No guns, no voice ...no revolution here :mad: . People can say what they like about Americans (fat , dumb , arrogant etc) but theres a large portion who would ,and will, take up arms to fight for the country.

To say im pissed off at our 'leaders' is an understatement. I have alot of freinds who live in the US and if/when the real patriots are forced to fight for the Republic Im gettin myself over there and helping out! I hope it won't come to that. I hope and pray to God that Ron Paul gets in the White House. Im not even religious lol .. I guess im makin an exception for this ;) .

You may ask "why is a "limey" ( :P ) so obsessed with US politics?"

The answer would be simple. Im sick and tired of BS wars. I firmly believe that if you get a great man like Ron Paul in power , my country will be forced to make similar changes. In fact, getting Ron Paul in the white House will be like the western world giving the London power base(whom I believe is just as powerful in the US ,as in the UK ) the middle finger.
Other than that I find it really upsetting to see what has happened ,and what will happen, to the country the Founding Fathers set in place.


Its just a pity I cant make any donations to Ron Paul's warchest. Im doin what I can on forums etc tho. Other than that , since im a songwriter, Im currently writing some material and am planning on using Ron Paul speeches as the verses. I'll stick em on the net so more people will get to listen to his Congressional speeches.

Anyway, Im rambling (again :D ).

Hi btw :)

[Shmuel Spade]

Funny you should say that. If Ron Paul wins , Im movin to the USA :)

Glad to have you, friend :-)


I live in Manchester , England. Hate this damned country. People here are dead, Poltically. No guns, no voice ...no revolution here :mad:

Don't worry too much, if it ever comes down to it, the black market will give you the guns you need. Anonymous folks will simply start shooting the surveillance cameras, and leaving would-be muggers bound and gagged at police station doorsteps.


People can say what they like about Americans (fat , dumb , arrogant etc) but theres a large portion who would ,and will, take up arms to fight for the country.

It's the same here. In fact that's what happened in both world wars. Americans suited up to fight for their brothers in the UK even before their government declared war.


Hi btw :)

How do you do ;-)

This is starting to remind of V for Vendetta :D

[Bossobass]

The answer would be simple. Im sick and tired of BS wars. I firmly believe that if you get a great man like Ron Paul in power , my country will be forced to make similar changes. In fact, getting Ron Paul in the white House will be like the western world giving the London power base(whom I believe is just as powerful in the US ,as in the UK ) the middle finger.
Other than that I find it really upsetting to see what has happened ,and what will happen, to the country the Founding Fathers set in place.


GST,

This is inspiring to me. Thanks for the post.:cool:

And, remember...the easiest and most economically sound method to immigrate into the US is to sneak across the Mexican border, at least while it's still there.;)

Bosso

[Gimme Some Truth]

BossoBass ,

Thanks for the border tip :D


Shmuel Spade ,

Id agree with you about the black market thing. Im actually in the process of buying my 1st house and, lets just say... I have been thinkin of gettin hold of said items to put under my bed in case some hoody tried stealin my computer (no-one touches my BABY! :D ). Of course tho that is as far as im ever gonna take the matter....id never break the law ;)

Its probably no suprise for me to say that V for Vendetta is my favourite film for quite a while ... :)

[Mattsa]

...because I feel like a foreigner in the country I was born in.

Any ideas what's a tolerable place to live in? I would like something with decent gun laws (sort of a litmus test), and fairly lax regulations regarding my own life. Unfortunately, I don't think anywhere in the world is like that. It seems the entire world was listening when Marx uttered his bullshit :(.

Any ideas?

This is what I say to myself every day living in the UK

And, believe me....things are MUCH MUCH worse in the UK than they are in America!

The problem is.....there's nowhere to run. These bastards are taking over the world. There just isn't ANYWHERE in the world to run to anymore. The Americans have a better chance than any other country of putting a stop to this creeping fascism, so my advice is stay right there and fight them from America. America is our only hope. In the UK, the cause is already lost. Most people here have accepted the nanny state controlling every aspect of our lives as a necessary evil.

I got news for ya! It isn't necessary and it isn't too late to do something about it.

The liberal elite depend upon the acquiesence and cooperation of the sheeple. If people don't cooperate, refuse to pay their taxes and fines, the system will collapse. You don't need to be violent, you don't need an armed revolution, you just need to quietly refuse to cooperate.

Living in the UK, I do not support gun laws. There would be anarchy here if everyone had firearms. But I can see how an armed nation might be your redemption. You might have to fight for your freedom if all else fails!

[FSP-Rebel]

You don't need to leave the country, just join people like me who are moving to NH via the Free State Project. NH could always secede or become a US territory instead of a state. This is only needed if DC is trying to shove their BS down our throat. See ya there.

[RPR-omaha]

I don't like sucession. It is selfish to give up on your brothers in other states. If a new revolution is forced all of America must be saved.

[noztnac]

...because I feel like a foreigner in the country I was born in.

Any ideas what's a tolerable place to live in? I would like something with decent gun laws (sort of a litmus test), and fairly lax regulations regarding my own life. Unfortunately, I don't think anywhere in the world is like that. It seems the entire world was listening when Marx uttered his bullshit :(.

Any ideas?

I'm teaching in South Korea. If you have a college degree you can make good money here. You can't have a gun but neither can the police. This is not where you want to end up but it is a good fun stop along the way. PM me if you are interested.

[Rangeley]

If Ron Paul loses... what would Ron Paul do?

[FreeTraveler]

The way I see it, the only states with the balls to resist whatever is coming our way, are Texas, Montana, Alaska, Idaho, and New Hampshire.

+1, and I'll go for Texas. The rest are just too cold! :D