Sweden, Denmark and netherlands etc... socialism?

[Lord Xar]

I have a buddy saying.. "these" countries are socialistic with great healthcare and socialism works and is a good thing. He always goes to these countries as "proof".. what am I missing here.

he says the healthcare is better, people are happier etc..

[Pennsylvania]

time

[AutoDas]

Ask him for the proof instead of him declaring it is.

[Lord Xar]

Ask him for the proof instead of him declaring it is.

he brings up healthcare and literacy rates and such. I've never been to those countries so my argument is against the "parenting and nanny" state. He says "he wants the govt to look out for him etc.."

[ArrestPoliticians]

this is a tough question, good post OP. I don't have a specific answer, I think response #1 is probably needed.

[constitutional]

I have a buddy saying.. "these" countries are socialistic with great healthcare and socialism works and is a good thing. He always goes to these countries as "proof".. what am I missing here.

he says the healthcare is better, people are happier etc..

They are all small countries. Getting socialism to work in a country like U.S., HA! Just look at how our government is doing right now. Socialism is a nightmare in U.K. from what I've heard. Read this thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=13690 (Which you created).

Tell him to move there if he finds it so great. The people living in Sweden, Denmark are one of the happiest people on earth. They have no ambitions in life since no one can get ahead of another in society. How do they make progress in society, I have no flipping clue.

Taking out like 50% of my pay check and telling me what to do isn't my style.

[m72mc]

I have a buddy saying.. "these" countries are socialistic with great healthcare and socialism works and is a good thing. He always goes to these countries as "proof".. what am I missing here.

he says the healthcare is better, people are happier etc..

ya but we pay 70 % tax and we don´t spend hardly anything on wars or military.

so if u wanna pay same tax + very small military and no wars... you can have the same..

[hazek]

All European countries are socialist. I'm from Slovenia and it's a socialist country as well.

It's almost like a tradition so you can't really argue with people about it. They just don't understand the principles of liberty and free market capitalism and what it provides.

Show them this movie is my best advice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTQQJOEn9yI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW6AKVyi6As
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23JIFy8Vm6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I16M-qH3SbU

If they still won't understand it, just give it up.

[vodalian]

These countries you mention have small governments, very low military spending, they don't have hundreds upon hundreds of bases world wide and they aren't starting wars around the world. Obama plans on INCREASING military spending, he plans on keeping our bases open and he plans on continuing to wage war in the middle east, while at the same time, bringing socialism to this country. If he lives up to these ridiculous promises, we're in for scary times.

[MusoSpuso]

As someone mentioned above, the first thing to do is challenge their assumptions. Where is the concrete "proof"?

You can also begin by giving him these links or printing them:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/08/AffordableHealthCare.htm
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/08/Wackonomics.htm

These were posted on CFL a while back I think but the affordable health care article in particular is good for this case.

Also, this is an excellent video from a Swedish person (libertarian) from reason.tv:

http://www.reason.tv/video/show/508.html

Start with that and get back to us :D

[Danke]

I think it is great that foreigners visit RPFs and post this stuff to remind us what we have (and need to protect).

[Minuteman2008]

It's not just population size, though obviously that is a factor. The countries you mentioned also aren't deliberately importing poor people by the millions, who are huge tax burdens and will likely remain so for several generations. The more we mimic European style socialism, the more disastrous the results will be.

[andy mcdee]

As for Swedish healthcare, yes we have very skilled doctors and very advanced technology, but When it come to servicing patients we are pretty bad. My buddy sprained his ankle and had to wait for 11 hours in the emergency room (others got prioritized), with nothing to eat, just to get a 30 minute x-ray. If that was a private clinic they would probably have treated him like a customer and sent him to the x-ray straight away since it was vacant.

Please mention that healthcare in Sweden is financed on a district level (100k-1000k citizens). Sure, the federal government can make laws regarding maximum waiting time and such, but it is run locally. State Rights anyone?

[fatjohn]

They are all small countries. Getting socialism to work in a country like U.S., HA! Just look at how our government is doing right now. Socialism is a nightmare in U.K. from what I've heard. Read this thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=13690 (Which you created).

Tell him to move there if he finds it so great. The people living in Sweden, Denmark are one of the happiest people on earth. They have no ambitions in life since no one can get ahead of another in society. How do they make progress in society, I have no flipping clue.

Taking out like 50% of my pay check and telling me what to do isn't my style.

Okay don't take this personally, but you don't know shit. :D anyway now seriously. I live in Belgium, study in the Netherlands. And yes it has it socialistic flavours but it isn't hard core socialism. We have stupid projects like letting elderly ride busses for free in certain cities or having the state paying for 7 euro's an hour for a maid (rest is to be paid by those who want their house to be cleaned)Or our healthcare program that works better then your semi-socialistic health care program. But there is almost as much diversity in workers pay as there is in the US (i guess). So we do have ambition and don't think ah well instead of becoming a brain surgeon i'll cut some peoples hair because it pays the same(no offence for people who cut others peoples hair, unless if you cut it without being asked then i want you to be offended)
But as for why scandinavian people are more happier. I guess less crime, no polluted environment, weighing less and i'm no expert but if it is like in belgium i would say more freedoms then in the US, like freedom to die, to have a baby (that's no freedom to live but i'm not asking for an argument), gay marriage, in netherlands usage of drugs, usage of alcohol since our sweet sixteens, more open minded view about religion (most people i know are atheists), legal prostitution the two main reasons why europeans tilt their head when looking at America is because 1) US is gun(nuts) (i understand that better now, since following ron paul then before but i must say i still don't want to trade on that issue although i start flip flopping from time to time) and 2) the born again christian groups which i believ e don't think evolution is real.
Oh and belgium is less socialistic then the netherlands. In belgium we get less money from the government to study at a university. In the Netherlands that's about EURO 250 a month for studying.

[liberteebell]

One of my friends from the Netherlands says that sure, they have socialized medicine and such but they pay big money in a Value Added Tax, which she does not like.

[Danke]

As for Swedish healthcare, yes we have very skilled doctors and very advanced technology, but When it come to servicing patients we are pretty bad. My buddy sprained his ankle and had to wait for 11 hours in the emergency room (others got prioritized), with nothing to eat, just to get a 30 minute x-ray. If that was a private clinic they would probably have treated him like a customer and sent him to the x-ray straight away since it was vacant.

Please mention that healthcare in Sweden is financed on a district level (100k-1000k citizens). Sure, the federal government can make laws regarding maximum waiting time and such, but it is run locally. State Rights anyone?

We can go back and forth about which current system is better. I had a Canadian gf that had to have private insurance as her back injury treatments were not covered in their national heath care system.

But the fact remains. I am for freedom from government intrusion into the individuals' lives no matter what the perceived benefit is to submit. Period. Leave me alone.

I think Hiki has a handle on the omnificence of the State.

[fletcher]

I have a buddy saying.. "these" countries are socialistic with great healthcare and socialism works and is a good thing. He always goes to these countries as "proof".. what am I missing here.

he says the healthcare is better, people are happier etc..

Proof of what? That he is opposed to freedom, liberty, and choice? That he doesn't care that collectivism always leads to tyranny. In some countries socialized healthcare is fine, but it can never offer what free-market healthcare does (which we don't have) because there is no competition and no price incentive. But those countries have to deal with the consequences, like loss of economic liberties, which leads to the loss of all liberties.

[azminuteman]

he brings up healthcare and literacy rates and such. I've never been to those countries so my argument is against the "parenting and nanny" state. He says "he wants the govt to look out for him etc.."

Literacy rates in the states are low because of the inner city (black) kids and segregation. Lowering the standard so that inner city kids can pass is what happens when you want to statistically show a group of children have the same reading level and not give 'special ed' classes to those that need it.


Before you think I'm talking out my ass, I was in school during the space program and I have family that were teachers during segregation and family that recently taught in a 'special' (not special needs, just dregs of society) school for the past 18 years.

And before you jump on my case because you think I'm saying segregation is bad, read my response again.


Mixing children that have a 7th grade reading level with children that have a 2nd grade reading level in the same class because of age is what you get.
Today, we have 14 year-olds that have the cognitive reasoning of a 12 year old and that is due to lowered standards and technology complacency.


When I was in the 3rd grade, we were taught pretty low level concepts of what computers were and even acted out instructions with a cardboard 'robot' prop.
Today, you're considered to be 'excellent in computers' if you can understand whatever proprietary interface is thrown in front of you but the concept of 'garbage in - garbage out' is lost.

[powerofreason]

Natural gas wealth.

[AutoDas]

Does your friend not realize America has socialized health care and education?

[constitutional]

Okay don't take this personally, but you don't know shit. :D anyway now seriously. I live in Belgium, study in the Netherlands. And yes it has it socialistic flavours but it isn't hard core socialism. We have stupid projects like letting elderly ride busses for free in certain cities or having the state paying for 7 euro's an hour for a maid (rest is to be paid by those who want their house to be cleaned)Or our healthcare program that works better then your semi-socialistic health care program. But there is almost as much diversity in workers pay as there is in the US (i guess). So we do have ambition and don't think ah well instead of becoming a brain surgeon i'll cut some peoples hair because it pays the same(no offence for people who cut others peoples hair, unless if you cut it without being asked then i want you to be offended)
But as for why scandinavian people are more happier. I guess less crime, no polluted environment, weighing less and i'm no expert but if it is like in belgium i would say more freedoms then in the US, like freedom to die, to have a baby (that's no freedom to live but i'm not asking for an argument), gay marriage, in netherlands usage of drugs, usage of alcohol since our sweet sixteens, more open minded view about religion (most people i know are atheists), legal prostitution the two main reasons why europeans tilt their head when looking at America is because 1) US is gun(nuts) (i understand that better now, since following ron paul then before but i must say i still don't want to trade on that issue although i start flip flopping from time to time) and 2) the born again christian groups which i believ e don't think evolution is real.
Oh and belgium is less socialistic then the netherlands. In belgium we get less money from the government to study at a university. In the Netherlands that's about EURO 250 a month for studying.

So why does socialism work in countries like Denmark and Sweden? You get paid to go to University, doesn't that speak of half people having no aspiration to reach higher?

[Moxxar]

I´m from the Netherlands, what do you want to know? That we pay 70% of our income in taxes? That for that we have a extremely managed healthcare system which is ok, I wouldn't say bad but I wouldn't say good either. It could be much more efficient if it was profit based private healthcare, but It isn't.

Some facts about my country:
Highest income tax bracket here is about 50%, middle is 43%, lowest (so the poorest people) pay 35%. Take in account that you get a lot of money from the government if you don't have a job, so there is little incentive to get a low paying job. (in some sectors it pays better not to have a job at all...) It's so screwed up.
In addition to income tax we pay Value added tax (we call it BTW) of about 19% on most items. It's less for food, either 6 or 12 percent, but still 19% for most items. Add to this tax on gasoline of 67% in total (tax + value added tax). Add to that tax on savings of 1,2% of total savings. Add to that local taxes like property tax and sewage tax of several thousands of euro's each year. Add to that the 35% extra tax on buying a car. Add to that inflation. Add to that the extra cost which things have because there are government regulations (like monopolies in the public transport sector and price controls on a cab ride to 'help cabdrivers', etc. etc.) Add to that the death tax of 58%. Add to that a tax of 35% on profits which companies make.

Well, you get the picture... I've probably forgotten a few as well. But for all these taxes we get several shoddy or OK public services. If you give back all the money to the people, they'll be able to buy a lot more services like education and healthcare, for a much better price, get much better quality, and keep much more money to actually enjoy life with.

Maybe this will persuade your friend. :)

[Flirple]

This is a tired myth that people always revert to when in a debate/conversation about free markets vs. socialism.

First it is crucial to emphasize that the last thing America has is free market medicine. Medical care sucks here because it is closer to socialism than it is to free markets.

Second is that yes the Scandinavian countries have many socialist domestic services health care, education, etc. but at the same time they are, in many ways, much more libertarian than America is because they have excellent non-protectionist free trade policies compared to us and most importantly they have non-interventionist foreign policies and don't squander their citizens' wealth on wars and large military budgets (by far the most destructive of all government wealth redistribution programs).

Yes their socialized programs are horrendous and don't work well. BUT, overall a country can get away with a lot of domestic socialism if they are smart enough to not destroy all their wealth on international socialism. Unfortunately, we are embracing central economic planning both domestically AND abroad.

I hate linking to the CATO Institute but here is a podcast dealing with exactly this issue that you should listen to to learn about the Scandinavian myth:
http://cato.everyzing.com/externalLink.jsp?action=epdl&playerid=20095294&s=4099&link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cato.org%2Fdailypodcast%2Fit unes%2Fjohnnymunkhammar_shouldscandinaviabeourmode l_20070417.mp3