Ron Paul's potential problem with the General "Betray-us" Report

[max]

With regards to the much anticipated General Betray-Us report, RP may have set himself up for an embarasing moment.

In the first or second debate RP said...

"If they (Petraues and company) report in September that there's been no progress, then we should leave." (paraphrase)

Well we all KNOW that General Betray-Us is a Bush stooge, and that the much ballyhooed Betray-Us report is gonna be a fraud - claiming that the "surge" is working. .

So, what happens if MSM pundits start playing the clip of RP and put him on the spot? The Betray-us report is due out next week.

RP should never have said that. In doing so, he gave General Betray-Us credibility and put himself in a spot.

If theres someone close to campaign....they should remind RP of what he said so he can manuever around this if the MSM replays the clip. It could be used against him.

[Kuldebar]

With regards to the much anticipated General Betray-Us report, RP may have set himself up for an embarasing moment.

In the first or second debate RP said...

"If they (Petraues and company) report in September that there's been no progress, then we should leave." (paraphrase)

Well we all KNOW that General Betray-Us is a Bush stooge, and that the much ballyhooed Betray-Us report is gonna be a fraud - claiming that the "surge" is working. .

So, what happens if MSM pundits start playing the clip of RP and put him on the spot? The Betray-us report is due out next week.

RP should never have said that. In doing so, he gave General Betray-Us credibility and put himself in a spot.

If theres someone close to campaign....they should remind RP of what he said so he can manuever around this if the MSM replays the clip. It could be used against him.

If that was Paul's only argument against the continuation of the Iraqi illegal war, I'd agree that it would be an issue. He made that statement as a segue into the larger issues that he has with our current foreign policy.

He at no time made the September report out to be the deciding issue. There wouldn't be any legs to this as an issue because there's nothing but that single sentence that would have to be taken out of context completely.

[Sean]

I think it won't matter. Americans will continue to be killed policing Iraq's streets. The so called surge is just a temporary band aid that doesn't do much. There is really no need for us to be there. The Iraqi's have to decide to take their country in their own hands and won't do that while we are there. This is the same reason why welfare doesn't work. Its much easier to sit at home and let other people do the work.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

So he's going to report objectively on the surge that he planned out and is responsible for...

Nope, no conflict of interests there.

[Kuldebar]

I think it won't matter. Americans will continue to be killed policing Iraq's streets. The so called surge is just a temporary band aid that doesn't do much. There is really no need for us to be there. The Iraqi's have to decide to take their country in their own hands and won't do that while we are there. This is the same reason why welfare doesn't work. Its much easier to sit at home and let other people do the work.


The surge is just a means to keep the troops there, a stalling tactic that will most likely work. The report will say it's working but not completely and that we need to spend more time on the ground or the world will blow up...something to that effect.

After all, got to have a convenient base of operations in order to invade Iran. Wouldn't want any Muslims getting pissed off at us if we used Saudi territory to launch an attack from... :rolleyes:

Once the flowers, chocolates and parades have been disposed of, it's Iran all the way baby!

[The Only Woj]

I think the fact that Osama made a video about why they're fighting us, and brought up Scheuer ... who is the source Ron Paul uses to justify his position ... that helps Paul.

They always say to "take them for their word" when it comes to the Iranian President. Why can't they do the same for Osama?

[max]

If that was Paul's only argument against the continuation of the Iraqi illegal war, I'd agree that it would be an issue. He made that statement as a segue into the larger issues that he has with our current foreign policy.

He at no time made the September report out to be the deciding issue. There wouldn't be any legs to this as an issue because there's nothing but that single sentence that would have to be taken out of context completely.

I understand that...but the MSM deals in 15 second soundbytes. With these bastards, one simple mistep can be hyped to destroy you...remember the "Dean Scream"....it really wasnt a big deal....but the MSM wrecked him with it

[max]

I think the fact that Osama made a video about why they're fighting us, and brought up Scheuer ... who is the source Ron Paul uses to justify his position ... that helps Paul.

They always say to "take them for their word" when it comes to the Iranian President. Why can't they do the same for Osama?

That Osama video is phonier than a $3 bill....Devout Muslims running around in caves do bot use Grecian Formula on their beards

[yaz]

Why would any general tell the truth about or situation in Iraq? We should go by the official government report that shows how bad our efforts are failing. It would take another decade to accomplish what we're trying to do and we don't' have the money to. Plus if we leave then the problem is then the surrounding countries. The people in Iraq hate Al Qaeda anyway because they are foreigners in their country.

[ctb619]

There is other information out there about the level of progress besides the Petraeus report - namely, the GAO report. It's pretty obvious that the Petraeus report is going to be full of mixed messages (i.e. it's working, but not as fast as we would have liked).

[Kuldebar]

I understand that...but the MSM deals in 15 second soundbytes. With these bastards, one simple mistep can be hyped to destroy you...remember the "Dean Scream"....it really wasnt a big deal....but the MSM wrecked him with it

Except Ron Paul's already had his position made very clear thanks to that publicity we got from Ghouliani's ass in that one debate. :)

It would take something physical like Dean Scream to damage Paul, because anything can be argued or debated is sure to fall flat. Dean couldn't really fight the Dean Scream silliness.

[aknappjr]

We don't need this propaganda calling a U.S. General "Betray-us" Regardless of your personal beliefs, it doesn't play well in politics. It hurts Ron Paul and the freedom movement.

[richard1984]

In the first or second debate RP said...

"If they (Petraues and company) report in September that there's been no progress, then we should leave." (paraphrase)

I think that the context of this comment is important to note. I'm sure that Dr. Paul was trying to say that the Bush administration should decide (or Congress should make him decide) to leave Iraq if the report in September says there has been no progress. Of course, if Ron Paul were president, he would have started pulling the troops out before the report.

The report is irrelevant as to whether or not we should stay--we most certainly should leave right now!!
But a report of no progress should be enough to move the president (or at least the congress) enough to bring the troops home.

[Nefertiti]

I think that the context of this comment is important to note. I'm sure that Dr. Paul was trying to say that the Bush administration should decide (or Congress should make him decide) to leave Iraq if the report in September says there has been no progress. Of course, if Ron Paul were president, he would have started pulling the troops out before the report.

The report is irrelevant as to whether or not we should stay--we most certainly should leave right now!!
But a report of no progress should be enough to move the president (or at least the congress) enough to bring the troops home.

Ditto-thanks for echoing my thoughts exactly and saving me the trouble of typing them up.

[foofighter20x]

With regards to the much anticipated General Betray-Us report, RP may have set himself up for an embarasing moment.

In the first or second debate RP said...

"If they (Petraues and company) report in September that there's been no progress, then we should leave." (paraphrase)

Well we all KNOW that General Betray-Us is a Bush stooge, and that the much ballyhooed Betray-Us report is gonna be a fraud - claiming that the "surge" is working. .

So, what happens if MSM pundits start playing the clip of RP and put him on the spot? The Betray-us report is due out next week.

RP should never have said that. In doing so, he gave General Betray-Us credibility and put himself in a spot.

If theres someone close to campaign....they should remind RP of what he said so he can manuever around this if the MSM replays the clip. It could be used against him.

I don't think this is a problem at all for the following reasons:

1) Petraeus will not be giving a written report.
2) Any report he gives to Congress has already been shown by the media to be tightly controlled by the White House.
3) The GAO leak effectively showed that only 3 of the 18 benchmarks were met.

If Petraeus' testimony before Congress matches #3, then no prob. That'll maybe give the Dem Congress the backbone they need to end the war.

If it doesn't match #3, then Petraeus' honesty can be written off.

[Kuldebar]

That Osama video is phonier than a $3 bill....Devout Muslims running around in caves do bot use Grecian Formula on their beards

I never bought the line he was hiding in a cave, some people (and American propagandists) want to think OBL is living in a "spider hole" like Saddam was doing. I think that OBL has had plenty of time to find various comfortable abodes to flit back and forth between as needed.

Concerning his appearance, OBL is a politician and he's understands that appearance matters in the world of perceptions. Looking gaunt and gray does not project strength, so, wash that gray right outta his hair!

[jb4ronpaul]

It cannot be a debate about the specific policy of the war, because they will always lie and make it look like things will work if we just spend more lives, time and money. He has to make it a debate about the immorality and failure of the overall foreign policy, which Paul can do better than anyone.

[njandrewg]

September 15th was the deadline to achieve all of the objectives...they only achieved 3 I believe. Thats hardly progress. And the majority of the objectives that weren't meant were political...meaning that if this guys can't meet them with complete peace...why the hell should our men die while they are on vacation?

[axiomata]

We don't need this propaganda calling a U.S. General "Betray-us" Regardless of your personal beliefs, it doesn't play well in politics. It hurts Ron Paul and the freedom movement.

I agree. Quite ignorant really.

[Kuldebar]

We don't need this propaganda calling a U.S. General "Betray-us" Regardless of your personal beliefs, it doesn't play well in politics. It hurts Ron Paul and the freedom movement.

Is Ghouliani still ok to use?

Betray-us is much easier to spell than Pet...err...well you get the idea.

And Stuff-a-phallus is far more satisfying on so many levels than spelling out Stephanopoulos.

[max]

We don't need this propaganda calling a U.S. General "Betray-us" Regardless of your personal beliefs, it doesn't play well in politics. It hurts Ron Paul and the freedom movement.

If you dont call a spade a spade these thugs will steam roll you. General Betray-us is a fraud and the moniker fits.

Just remember this, it was our reverence of the "great" Colin Powell that permitted him to stage that dog and pony show at the UN...that mendacious spectale that got us into this war.

Had people had the balls to have called Powell a media hyped phony when he first came on the scene, his endorsement of the war would not have carried the weight which it did. But of course, calling Powell for what he was would not have "played well".

The same for General Betray-Us. He is being portrayed as the 2nd coming of General Macarthur. You want to show him respect out of fear of "hurting Ron Paul"?...well, when he unveils his fraud next week, and when we find ourselves still at war 5...10...15 years from now,...then come lecture me about "my personal beliefs not playing well."

[Cowlesy]

Ugh, no no no. Colin Powell admitted on national television that he totally fucked up. If he was a shill he'd still be Secretary of State. The guy fucked up. Everyone is so quick to judge General Petraeus---frankly I hope he succeeds! I also expect that he will be independent and report what should be reported.


Look I know everyone wants to think the entire world is against us, but let's all have some professional skepticism--whether you're a gov't-is-against-us-all, floating-in-them-middle or a big-brother-is-our-best-friend citizen.

[Prez4TheNet]

Ugh, no no no. Colin Powell admitted on national television that he totally fucked up. If he was a shill he'd still be Secretary of State. The guy fucked up. Everyone is so quick to judge General Petraeus---frankly I hope he succeeds! I also expect that he will be independent and report what should be reported.


Look I know everyone wants to think the entire world is against us, but let's all have some professional skepticism--whether you're a gov't-is-against-us-all, floating-in-them-middle or a big-brother-is-our-best-friend citizen.

I agree, lets not disparage men in uniform who are just doing their duty. Thats just wrong.

[max]

Ugh, no no no. Colin Powell admitted on national television that he totally fucked up. If he was a shill he'd still be Secretary of State. The guy fucked up. Everyone is so quick to judge General Petraeus---frankly I hope he succeeds! I also expect that he will be independent and report what should be reported.


Look I know everyone wants to think the entire world is against us, but let's all have some professional skepticism--whether you're a gov't-is-against-us-all, floating-in-them-middle or a big-brother-is-our-best-friend citizen.

How could Powell have been that stupid? There was a TON of evidence that saddam had no WMD's..

Remember Scott Ritter? Remember Hans Blix? Remember Saddams open invitation to have US Conngresman come in and visit anywhjere they like without announcing beforehand?

I have ZERO respect for Powell's character....but I have great respect for his intelligence...I just dont buy that he was duped by that "Yellowcake" nonsense

[Kuldebar]

Political Generals (are there any other type anymore?) are a change of clothes away from being politicians.

Remember this, it will serve you well.

[max]

I agree, lets not disparage men in uniform who are just doing their duty. Thats just wrong.

"men in uniform"...the generals that is....are political appointees...

What makes you think that a military man is incapable of having the same careerist ambitions as a politician?...

A liar is a liar...whether he wears an Armani suit...or a General's uniform

[Cowlesy]

I'll vote for Ron Paul no matter what and I do believe there is a Globalist group-think that is apologized for by the pursuit of profit that they think benefits us all...but I refuse to say every single one of these people who were in a place of power were part of some massive conspiracy.

I listened to Powell say he should have listened to his people better the day before he went to the U.N. and gave that speech. I think it's all hung around his neck and he will and is being judged for it accordingly.

[ape]

The " surge " is working you say, Bill O'tool? Iraq has almost 70% unemployment ( may be better now, those are july figures ) and the government can't even function. Enough said, our soliders aren't police officers. If this comes up on O'reilly RP should easily be able to gut that clown. Facts are facts.

[max]

The " surge " is working you say, Bill O'tool? Iraq has almost 70% unemployment ( may be better now, those are july figures ) and the government can't even function. Enough said, our soliders aren't police officers. If this comes up on O'reilly, RP should easily be able to tool that clown. Facts are facts.

LOL...the unemployment surge!

[ape]

LOL...the unemployment surge!

I know I would be blowing shit up if an occupying force was dictating to our countrys government and our country had 70% unemployment.. How many private contractors are in Iraq again? The Iraqis must love the view of that embassy and all the foreigners constructing it while they sit around unemployed.

[synthetic]

If theres someone close to campaign....they should remind RP of what he said so he can manuever around this if the MSM replays the clip. It could be used against him.

Paul doesn't have to agree with a White House filtered report. Iraqi civilian casualties in August were at least 1,807. The surge is being bypassed while the civil war continues. Bush has been playing the same wack-a-mole game for years.

[Shellshock1918]

General Betray-Us credibility .
Excuse me, but do not insult the soldiers like that ever again. That was totally immature and uncalled for. Petraeus is a patriot who is dedicated to his job. That was completely disrespectful and you should be ashamed of yourself.

[max]

\
Excuse me, but do not insult the soldiers like that ever again. That was totally immature and uncalled for. Petraeus is a patriot who is dedicated to his job.

Betray-Us is a Bush stooge...hired to portray a rosy picture of a senseless bloodbath that is bleeding bankrupting our nation.

Uniforms do not command respect in my book...it's whats behind the uniform.

[Bean]

There is other information out there about the level of progress besides the Petraeus report - namely, the GAO report. It's pretty obvious that the Petraeus report is going to be full of mixed messages (i.e. it's working, but not as fast as we would have liked).

I think the Patraeus report won't be mixed messages so much as concluding that the surge is working and we should continue down that path. As someone said earlier, there is NO WAY he is going to be objective about reporting on the results of a policy and plan that was his baby; the whole troop surge was his idea.

[ronpaulitician]

In the first or second debate RP said...

"If they (Petraues and company) report in September that there's been no progress, then we should leave." (paraphrase)
He didn't add, "On the other hand, if there has been progress, we should stay!" did he?

[max]

He didn't add, "On the other hand, if there has been progress, we should stay!" did he?

no...but thats the inference that the media may spin out of it...

regardless, we need to stop placing polticaly appointed military leaders on such pedastals...reeks of facsism...

[Brandybuck]

I said it before that it doesn't matter if we make progress or not, or even if we win or not. This isn't about winning, it's about morality. The huge mistake the left has made is in betting their farm that the war cannot be won. We must not make that same mistake. This war is immoral regardless of our progress. It is not in our national interest, regardless of our progress.

[scipio337]

Betray-Us is a Bush stooge...hired to portray a rosy picture of a senseless bloodbath that is bleeding bankrupting our nation.

Uniforms do not command respect in my book...it's whats behind the uniform.He has the respect of the men serving under him. You know, the ones sacrificing in the "senseless bloodbath", and that's enough for me. Ad hominem adds nothing to your argument.

There won't be a rosy report, every commission under the sun has stated there isn't a military solution to the situation. The GOA and the report today showing Iraqis couldn't handle their own security until at least a year from now will overshadow the temporary gains of the "Surge".

[apropos]

Realistically, there will be achievements and failures when Petraus comes to report. While the advantages will be pumped up by Bush and Co. - tamer regions, lower attacks over the course of the surge - anti-war foes will give the failures air time. This includes rife corruption in the police force, to the point that one report asked that the force be dissolved and rebuilt. Iraq has also missed 11 of the 18 of the political benchmarks set up to be accomplished. Paul will have plenty of ammunition to use after the report, but he have a continued hard time with those who don't want convincing.

[Chernitsky]

There won't be a report.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/07/no-petraeus-report/

[Shellshock1918]

Betray-Us is a Bush stooge...hired to portray a rosy picture of a senseless bloodbath that is bleeding bankrupting our nation.

Uniforms do not command respect in my book...it's whats behind the uniform.
And obviously you have no idea what is behind the uniform.

You really need to keep your disrespect to yourself, its not very becoming of you to be insulting Generals. In fact, it really just shows your ignorance. You really should shut up now.

[constituent]

bump.

[axiomata]

General "Betray-us"

Almost as creative as MoveOn are we?

http://pol.moveon.org/images/PetraeusNYTad.jpg (http://pol.moveon.org/content/pac/pdfs/PetraeusNYTad.pdf)

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, I don't so much like us calling a general a name like this, much less one that was coined by a group like "moveon.org". I personally find it disgusting.

[American]

The playing field isnt fare, our political system isnt fare, the media isnt fare. Do whatever you can to level the playing field.

betray-us name will work wonders with the Democrats..

[ThePieSwindler]

Like Ron said on the sept 5th debate, all this troop movement is irrelevant; it is the overarching foreign policy that is the issue. The surge may be "working" in that it is accomplishing the objective of killing some iraqi insurgents, but these objectives are all menial and pointless in the grand scheme of the entire war. Petraeus is just following orders fromt he CiC, Bush. No need to resort to bashing him, or then they can use the "hate the troops liberals" arguement against us, and paint the debate as being black and white even though its not. We must not resort to the behaviors of certain liberal groups, even if our aims are the same (well not really... our aim as true conservatves and ron paulites is to end interventionism and end the war for real, moveon.org etc's aim is to give bush as much blame as possible and take down the republican party even though the democratic party is failing just as miserably).

[Kuldebar]

Irreverence for authority is a very traditional American value. A less than worshipful stance against public figures is part and parcel to remaining vigilant against those who hold power.

As I said before, Generals are one change of clothes away from being politicians.

The Troops Also Need to Support the American People (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/01/the_troops_also_need_to_suppor.html)

[American]

This should be a good time to start working on the Democrats......:)

Biden: Petraeus ‘dead flat wrong’ on Iraq
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20676775/

[Kuldebar]

Even if the Surge was working/is working; we should not be there or stay there.

I can break into your house and make a mean omelet in your kitchen, doesn't make what I am doing a good thing.

[LibertyEagle]

I wouldn't post this, but since this thread is already at the top...

PLEASE let this be the last post in this thread. With the O'Reilly appearance coming up tonight, the last thing we need an O'Reilly viewer to see is a Ron Paul supporter calling one of our generals the same name that moveon.org does. I find it disgusting and I am quite sure they will too.

PLEASE LET THIS THREAD DIE.

[Thunderbolt]

...

[Kuldebar]

Troop blogs show increasing criticism of war (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/09/ap_soldierblogs_070909/)


The Army has said winning the information war is necessary to win the ground war. Insurgents agree. Tributes to Saddam Hussein are uploaded to YouTube, along with alleged film showing attacks on convoys. Some caught in the middle post their travails. The Army also uploads videos. In many cases it is impossible to verify or even identify who the source is, and it must be taken with a grain of digital salt.

In April, the Army announced new rules on blogging that required soldiers to clear them with a superior. Access to MySpace and some other popular Web sites was blocked. The Army said it was not trying to stop soldiers from speaking their mind, however. And so far, some of them have been.

[LibertyEagle]

Guys, can we just let this thread die down until tomorrow? You know, AFTER we get smacked with a bunch of O'Reilly visitors? Is this the thread that we want them to see first, when they're trying to find out more about Ron Paul?

Please think about it and let this thread die down.

[Original_Intent]

Whether Petraeus is a patriot or not, we should do better than make a play on words of his name. Doing stuff like that of political opponents like GHOULiani and FLIP Romney is one thing - but if we cannot bring up better arguments than to mangle his name into a joke it is time for us to give it up.

Now personally, I think that he is going to say whatever Bush tells him to say, and i also think that General's are not necessarily the experts on measuring political progress. So have him report on military progress, but I think whatever he has to say about Iraq's political progress is, well, irrelevant. And no, that is not an original idea on my part, I have seen plenty of posts/blogs that make the same point.

[LibertyEagle]

Oh great... JUST GREAT... They're talking about the moveon.org "betray us" ad on TV right now. What the hell are we doing? Following the .. how to run off any and all potential Republican voters? Just dandy!!!

Will someone please change the name of this thread?

[Kuldebar]

Guys, can we just let this thread die down until tomorrow? You know, AFTER we get smacked with a bunch of O'Reilly visitors? Is this the thread that we want them to see first, when they're trying to find out more about Ron Paul?

Please think about it and let this thread die down.

You really think persuading people to support Ron Paul can be achieved by hiding things like free and open discussion?

You feel you have to manage and manipulate the voices of others in order to entice people to think as you would like them to do?

Is honesty of expression a poor policy to follow in intellectual discourse?


I reject methods of human interaction that rely on subterfuge, dissembling or facades. When I was in the military stationed over seas, the base commander had the walls of base housing that faced the main road from the air terminal freshly painted so that a visiting General would be able to see a nice looking housing area. Additionally, the tennis court was resurfaced, the General was an avid tennis player, after all.

Yet, the Bachelor Quarters were out of toilet paper.

I want grown-up thinking individuals to wake up to the idea that ideas are free to express. Hiding things is not a way to understanding, it's an obstacle.

[LibertyEagle]

1. This thread is NOT about Ron Paul. So, it doesn't even belong in Ron Paul News.
2. I could care less what you discuss or believe, but if you do so in RON PAUL NEWS, you are associating Ron Paul with it.

Now, if you cannot understand this and further do not understand that Republicans coming here after Ron's appearance on O'Reilly tonight, will run off screaming when they see the very same insult about Petraeus, as was put out in an ad, by none other than moveon.org, well then, I can't help you.

Ron Paul's campaign does not deserve having this BS paraded out in front of the world and introduced as RON PAUL NEWS. I guess this is just a switch off from Max posting 911 conspiracy theory BS in Ron Paul News.

[Kuldebar]

Like it, or not, despite the source, the ad has substance:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/Kuldebar/advert.jpg

[Bossobass]

There may not be a written report, but he's sure as hell reading from a written statement to Congress.

Anyone who believes that they're gonna get the whole truth and nothing but the truth from this guy needs to contact me about some swampland I have for sale in New Jersey.

I especially like the 'progress' report regarding going after Al Qaeda during 'the last 6 months'. :rolleyes:

What have they been doing the previous 4 years?

"...innumerable obstacles remain..." "...will allow draw down of surge troops in the months ahead..." "...on a less encouraging note...the extent of Iran's involvement...something that Iraqi officials and we share concern about..."

Change a few proper nouns and this is Westmoreland talking about VietNam.

I got news...if Ron Paul isn't elected, we will NEVER leave Iraq.

General Windowdressing (since he's gambling with my life savings, future earnings and retirement funds I'll call him whatever pleases me, thank you) is offering a best-case scenario of drawing down on the surge troops in a number of months. Anyone guess what that means in English?

Bosso

[American]

1. This thread is NOT about Ron Paul. So, it doesn't even belong in Ron Paul News.
2. I could care less what you discuss or believe, but if you do so in RON PAUL NEWS, you are associating Ron Paul with it.

Now, if you cannot understand this and further do not understand that Republicans coming here after Ron's appearance on O'Reilly tonight, will run off screaming when they see the very same insult about Petraeus, as was put out in an ad, by none other than moveon.org, well then, I can't help you.

Ron Paul's campaign does not deserve having this BS paraded out in front of the world and introduced as RON PAUL NEWS. I guess this is just a switch off from Max posting 911 conspiracy theory BS in Ron Paul News.

You want some tissue or something, a cookie, what?

Are you a moderator on this board, I think you made your point now STFU, kthxbye

[RP4ME]

Well intentioned people believe in this war along with not so well intentioned souls - Patreus may be one of the well intentioned ones... Thats said no one can say or should say he is unpatriotic unless they have the facts to back it up. Do I think he is? I dont know. I dont care.

There are far to many FACTS about how we went to war and the results of thsi speak for themselves. Did we really need this report to support either side?. No.

I agree it is not a good idea that moveone.org called him that ....b/c it does the same thing Fox news debates do for our man and hopefully what Oreilly will do for us tonite! I detest when fox says peopel who dont agree with teh war are unamerican communists....its all a farce and is purposely trying to get bothe sides worked up to then wekaen them both.... The issue IS the Constitution lets focus on that....

[fletcher]

Using the 'name' Betray-Us makes you look like a fucking moron. I expect that from the Democrats, not Ron Paul supporters. max should be embarrassed of himself and this thread should be moved or deleted.

[happyphilter]

Whats wrong with trusting general petraeus, hes a very good man and a patriot, he shouldent be dissed or looked down upon, so please dont call him "betray-us" just because you cant spell petraeus(I'm not even sure I have it right)

Fact of the matter is, it cannot hurt ron paul for saying that he holds general petraeus's opinion in high regards. Hes been in Iraq, he knows better then any of us could about whats going on.

[johnrocks]

Well intentioned people believe in this war along with not so well intentioned souls - Patreus may be one of the well intentioned ones... Thats said no one can say or should say he is unpatriotic unless they have the facts to back it up. Do I think he is? I dont know. I dont care.

There are far to many FACTS about how we went to war and the results of thsi speak for themselves. Did we really need this report to support either side?. No.

I agree it is not a good idea that moveone.org called him that ....b/c it does the same thing Fox news debates do for our man and hopefully what Oreilly will do for us tonite! I detest when fox says peopel who dont agree with teh war are unamerican communists....its all a farce and is purposely trying to get bothe sides worked up to then wekaen them both.... The issue IS the Constitution lets focus on that....

Well said!! I detest anyone that belittles our men and women in uniform, they are following orders. The good general was put in a no win situation, if he came back and said we need to pull out yesterday, moveon would have portrayed him as the best military genius since Sun Tzu!

[American]

The freaks have really come out on this one.....lol

[LibertyEagle]

You want some tissue or something, a cookie, what?

Are you a moderator on this board, I think you made your point now STFU, kthxbye

FO! :mad:

[American]

FO! :mad:


Dont bring the ball, if you cant bring the game......Bring it sunshine, .....:cool:


Kinda like the columnist who write Rue Paul and not Ron Paul, huh?

[Kuldebar]

Well said!! I detest anyone that belittles our men and women in uniform, they are following orders.


The people who wear the uniforms are much like any other people, let's not lose sight of that. Also, just following orders only goes so far...

I many ways, being on the ground in the middle of a war zone makes one less of a reasoned expert on the situation. Talk about vested interests! If your best buddy just got his face blown off, you are going to have some difficulty with accepting that the fight you are in is illegitimate.

As for Generals, my last job was working for a man who is currently the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, he's a good man. But, not every General is a "good man" some are not very principled and are wholly political animals.

[axiomata]

Present evidence against Petraeus' character or drop it.

[johnrocks]

The people who wear the uniforms are much like any other people, let's not lose sight of that.

I many ways, being on the ground in the middle of a war zone makes one less of a reasoned expert on the situation. Talk about vested interests! If your best buddy just got his face blown off, you are going to have some difficulty with accepting that the fight you are in is illegitimate.

As for Generals, my last job was working for a man who is currently the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, he's a good man. But, not every General is a "good man" some are not very principled and are wholly political animals.

I agree but where were they three months ago when the Democrats agreed to wait on his report? Why didn't they say THEN that it would be merely a report that would be to Bush's liking? I have always been against this war and remain so, I think we do need to change our foreign policy but I will NEVER call a soldier a pawn or a traitor just because their opinion is different than mine. Call me old fashioned but I hold the military in high esteem, it's our policies I have a problem with.

[Kuldebar]

Present evidence against Petraeus' character or drop it.


Nice try but no cigar.

The general's report is supporting the will of the President in regards to the Iraqi situation. That alone is reason enough to doubt the veracity of the general's report.

Dozens if not 100's of people, contractors and uniformed personnel, sit down in meetings and massage the data. It isn't lying, it's simply electing not to expose facts that derail your agenda.

The goal is to support a certain outcome as expressed by the leadership, the role of the staff is to produce a briefing that does just that.

[axiomata]

Dozens if not 100's of people, contractors and uniformed personnel, sit down in meetings and massage the data. It isn't lying, it's simply electing not to expose facts that derail your agenda.

Since you were at said meeting I guess I'll drop it.

[Kuldebar]

I agree but where were they three months ago when the Democrats agreed to wait on his report? Why didn't they say THEN that it would be merely a report that would be to Bush's liking? I have always been against this war and remain so, I think we do need to change our foreign policy but I will NEVER call a soldier a pawn or a traitor just because their opinion is different than mine. Call me old fashioned but I hold the military in high esteem, it's our policies I have a problem with.

I don't think I am in disagreement with you on this.

I simply point out that military leaders are fair game but as in anything we shouldn't paint wildly with a too broad of a brush.

The principled leaders are dissatisfied, but the can not speak too loudly about their views. Whatever good they can do will be to support their soldiers is by staying where they are at, getting relieved of command simply removes them from the picture.

General Shinseki acted honorably by testifying honestly about his opinions on how many troops would be necessary on the ground after the fall of the regime.

His reward from his superiors was to be asked to step down from the CSA one year early.

[LibertyEagle]

Dont bring the ball, if you cant bring the game......Bring it sunshine, .....:cool:


Kinda like the columnist who write Rue Paul and not Ron Paul, huh?

I can play any game you want. However, I was under the assumption what MOST of us on this board were trying to do was to get Dr. Paul the Republican nomination. So sorry to distract you from your fun and games with reality.

[Kuldebar]

Since you were at said meeting I guess I'll drop it.

I wasn't at that particular meeting, but I have been to 100's of similar meetings when I worked as a defense contractor. The standard way military briefings come together is part and parcel to the entire DoD's methodology. A leader announces a goal or desire to reach a goal and asks for a briefing, depending on the politics involved this will impact how the briefing or report is put together by the various staff organizations. The natural tendency supports positive information and downplays negative information.

[Shellshock1918]

With regards to the much anticipated General Betray-Us report, RP may have set himself up for an embarasing moment.

In the first or second debate RP said...

"If they (Petraues and company) report in September that there's been no progress, then we should leave." (paraphrase)

Well we all KNOW that General Betray-Us is a Bush stooge, and that the much ballyhooed Betray-Us report is gonna be a fraud - claiming that the "surge" is working. .

So, what happens if MSM pundits start playing the clip of RP and put him on the spot? The Betray-us report is due out next week.

RP should never have said that. In doing so, he gave General Betray-Us credibility and put himself in a spot.

If theres someone close to campaign....they should remind RP of what he said so he can manuever around this if the MSM replays the clip. It could be used against him.

Excuse me, I as well as others have asked you to not refer to Petraeus as "Betray us".
I asked you nicely to refrain from that.
Now you've done it again, despite concern from others.

You've deserved this:

Go to hell.

[American]

I can play any game you want. However, I was under the assumption what MOST of us on this board were trying to do was to get Dr. Paul the Republican nomination. So sorry to distract you from your fun and games with reality.

Agreed, I actually want Ron Paul in the White House. The Republican nod is important but not the end all be all of this race.

The democrats need to know about Ron Paul now so when and if the Republican nomination doesn't happen, we have another plan. This would work just fine in Democratic circles.

I've been on almost every forum I can find in relation to getting Ron Paul the GOP nod, and I am less then encouraged. They feed into the media bullshit like its there life's blood. The ones who want to vote for Ron Paul will vote for Ron Paul, Its time to work on the Democrats now, IMHO

This isnt about parties right? This is a revolution for the American people....

[aravoth]

This thread is bullshit. You wanna blame someone for the the way the war is going? Fine, blame the Secretary of Defense, blame the Joint Cheifs, blame the President, Blame the fucking Congress that I bet half of you voted for.

Patreaus is a soldier. Not some dipshit playing Army in an office building. He was given an objective, and he's trying to complete that objective. Congress, The President, those are the bad guys. They are ones that started this shit, and they are the ones who will not end it. They tear the constitution to ribbons, they misapropriate our money, they send our troops into a secratarian shithole, and they strip you of your cival liberties. And you want to get all hot and bothered by a decorated four Star General's assesment of how well a bad thing is going? Give me a fucking break.

I realize that in this movement there are a ton of people I don't agree with. We're all from different political persausions. It's a miricale we get along at all. Some of you have no fucking tact, no respect, and push your own bullshit at the expense of others.

Patreaus and the soldiers under him have risked more, and done more for thier nation than most of you could ever hope to do holding up a cardboard sign.

[Shellshock1918]

This thread is bullshit. You wanna blame someone for the the way the war is going? Fine, blame the Secretary of Defense, blame the Joint Cheifs, blame the President, Blame the fucking Congress that I bet half of you voted for.

Patreaus is a soldier. Not some dipshit playing Army in an office building. He was given an objective, and he's trying to complete that objective. Congress, The President, those are the bad guys. They are ones that started this shit, and they are the ones who will not end it. They tear the constitution to ribbons, they misapropriate our money, they send our troops into a secratarian shithole, and they strip you of your cival liberties. And you want to get all hot and bothered by a decorated four Star General's assesment of how well a bad thing is going? Give me a fucking break.

I realize that in this movement there are a ton of people I don't agree with. We're all from different political persausions. It's a miricale we get along at all. Some of you have no fucking tact, no respect, and push your own bullshit at the expense of others.

Patreaus and the soldiers under him have risked more, and done more for thier nation than most of you could ever hope to do holding up a cardboard sign.
Well said.

Don't smear his name in with the politicians who started the war. Its fucking disrespectful and childish and those who continue to do so are only ruining their own reputation.

[sbradbury]

This thread is bullshit indeed. Unless someone has specific evidence that General Patreaus is a dishonest person I would be exceedingly hesitant to call a 4 star General anything disrespectful.

4 stars is no small accomplishment.

[LibertyEagle]

This thread is bullshit. You wanna blame someone for the the way the war is going? Fine, blame the Secretary of Defense, blame the Joint Cheifs, blame the President, Blame the fucking Congress that I bet half of you voted for.

Patreaus is a soldier. Not some dipshit playing Army in an office building. He was given an objective, and he's trying to complete that objective. Congress, The President, those are the bad guys. They are ones that started this shit, and they are the ones who will not end it. They tear the constitution to ribbons, they misapropriate our money, they send our troops into a secratarian shithole, and they strip you of your cival liberties. And you want to get all hot and bothered by a decorated four Star General's assesment of how well a bad thing is going? Give me a fucking break.

I realize that in this movement there are a ton of people I don't agree with. We're all from different political persausions. It's a miricale we get along at all. Some of you have no fucking tact, no respect, and push your own bullshit at the expense of others.

Patreaus and the soldiers under him have risked more, and done more for thier nation than most of you could ever hope to do holding up a cardboard sign.

I agree.

[Bossobass]

This thread is bullshit. You wanna blame someone for the the way the war is going? Fine, blame the Secretary of Defense, blame the Joint Cheifs, blame the President, Blame the fucking Congress that I bet half of you voted for.

Patreaus is a soldier. Not some dipshit playing Army in an office building. He was given an objective, and he's trying to complete that objective. Congress, The President, those are the bad guys. They are ones that started this shit, and they are the ones who will not end it. They tear the constitution to ribbons, they misapropriate our money, they send our troops into a secratarian shithole, and they strip you of your cival liberties. And you want to get all hot and bothered by a decorated four Star General's assesment of how well a bad thing is going? Give me a fucking break.

I realize that in this movement there are a ton of people I don't agree with. We're all from different political persausions. It's a miricale we get along at all. Some of you have no fucking tact, no respect, and push your own bullshit at the expense of others.

Patreaus and the soldiers under him have risked more, and done more for thier nation than most of you could ever hope to do holding up a cardboard sign.

Sounds like this post is calling Ron Paul a 'disrespectful dipshit' for saying, "We just marched in, we should just march out."

Ron is absolutely correct. If a general returns from a 'fact-finding mission' and doesn't have the stones to state the facts regarding this fiasco, it'll take more than your rhetoric to stifle opinions.

Sad fact is that most everyone who posted in this thread didn't spend a minute watching the general's report, which spanned hours, beginning with his reading a statement followed by question/answers.

I spent most of my day watching and reviewing these 'facts'. I cry BS! If stars can negate BS, then I stand corrected.

BTW, it's Petraeus.

Bosso

[im_a_pepper]

I watched the entire thing as well. Petraeus made it very clear that he could not comment on aspects outside of Iraq, and was hired to oversee the Iraq Operation and his views on if,how, and why were inconsequential. Even the cost of soldiers was not the issue. He got the point across the Bush Administration wanted to hear "It's possible. Not easy but possible."
The charts he showed, the numbers he spewed...every single one of them contradicted the polls the views and reports that have come from unpartisaned organizations and even the views of the Iraqis themselves. It was BS. But the General was doing his job. His job for which he was appointed was to oversee Operation Iraqi Freedom, not to counter it, and not even to comment or see if it was necessary. The whole surge itself is meaningless.
So we drop troops back to the level of before the surge in one year...so what? That sounds like no traction to me.

[Proemio]

... (context at post)...

Patreaus and the soldiers under him have risked more, and done more for thier nation than most of you could ever hope to do holding up a cardboard sign.

Recognizing that this is a highly sensitive, and emotional issue, that conclusion could hardly be more wrong, in my view.

Objectively, what have he - and to a lesser extent - they done, except burn treasure at an incredible rate, for an illegal adventure promoted through deception and lies by a bunch of criminals, both foreign and domestic - not to mention the comprehensive destruction of another people? What have they objectively "done for the nation" except create more blowback?

It's the few who follow their conscience and/or their oat to the constitution, and refuse to follow the illegal orders, who "risked more, and done more for this nation" than perhaps the brave soul who picks up that cardboard sign and heads for the unknown - often alone.

It's not terribly hard to go along with the hive dynamics of a military organization - that's how they are designed and that is why they work so well, for a while. It's equally not hard for a general (four star) to carry water for the criminals, when the odds are great that he will be protected from consequences and will only reap personal benefit.

Also, Petraeus isn't a normal Joe in a tough spot, he is up for the Nuremberg treatment. By following orders in an aggression of fancy, outside a constitutional framework, he clearly does "betray-us" (and himself). By promoting the continuation of the farce - and as you know, President Paul would call him to barracks, or worse - he deserves the criticism and scorn, something you appear to grant as being fair game for the Joint Chiefs - Petraeus is a mere step or two away.

And last; how can you reconcile your conclusion with the principled messages in your powerful videos? Puzzling...

[aravoth]

Sounds like this post is calling Ron Paul a 'disrespectful dipshit' for saying, "We just marched in, we should just march out."

Ron is absolutely correct. If a general returns from a 'fact-finding mission' and doesn't have the stones to state the facts regarding this fiasco, it'll take more than your rhetoric to stifle opinions.

Sad fact is that most everyone who posted in this thread didn't spend a minute watching the general's report, which spanned hours, beginning with his reading a statement followed by question/answers.

I spent most of my day watching and reviewing these 'facts'. I cry BS! If stars can negate BS, then I stand corrected.

BTW, it's Petraeus.

Bosso

:rolleyes: give me a break.

And Proemio, the military is not a hive mind. And trust me, a person getting shot at risks a lot more than a "demonstrating without a permit" fine.

[aravoth]

Sounds like this post is calling Ron Paul a 'disrespectful dipshit' for saying, "We just marched in, we should just march out."


Ya know, I was just gonna leave it with what I said, but seriously, there is no way, no possible way you are this stupid.

[Kuldebar]

To the best of my knowledge none of us here on these forums knows anything about the kind of man Petraeus happens to be.

Acting overly worshipful or overly vindictive to anyone that wears the uniform does no service to the truth. General officers are political creatures, losing sight of that will bring disappointment. They are political because they have to be. You don't become a general in today's military without being political. To what degree this impacts your actions depends on your character.

Does this mean general officers are liars? No.

Some of them are true believers, some are just following orders, some are doing what they do for career related ambitions, some disagree but stick around so they can make some positive differences and others quietly retire early and fade away.