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Warrior_of_Freedom
11-02-2008, 09:36 PM
If you're voting for McCain (Or Osamabama)just to try and not have Obama. Fuck you. I been part of the Ron Paul thing > Campaign for Liberty for a long time, and to see you all lose your base principles disgusts me. I'm going to vote for Chuck Baldwin constitution party, Bob Barr is a fucking jerkoff so he went down the toilet.

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 09:45 PM
If you're voting for McCain (Or Osamabama)just to try and not have Obama. Fuck you. I been part of the Ron Paul thing > Campaign for Liberty for a long time, and to see you all lose your base principles disgusts me. I'm going to vote for Chuck Baldwin constitution party, Bob Barr is a fucking jerkoff so he went down the toilet.

No.... have not lost our base principles.... we need to deal with the problem at hand ... so we can then continue with our real goals...

Kludge
11-02-2008, 09:49 PM
The McBama support on this forum is insignificant.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=163643

puppetmaster
11-02-2008, 09:49 PM
if anyone here is voting mccain i would be surprised... if there are some, it would be less than .004%

HenryKnoxFineBooks
11-02-2008, 09:51 PM
The McBama support on this forum is insignificant.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=163643



Nice! Just a smidge over 10% voting for one of the two major parties.

Warrior_of_Freedom
11-02-2008, 09:51 PM
if anyone here is voting mccain i would be surprised... if there are some, it would be less than .004%

Wrong, we have lots of defectors

JK/SEA
11-02-2008, 09:53 PM
No.... have not lost our base principles.... we need to deal with the problem at hand ... so we can then continue with our real goals...


Yes, which is to destroy the CURRENT repub. party that RON PAUL REPUDIATED and replace the leadership from the groundup. Grassroots on the march. A vote for McCain is not the way to destroy the party. Republicans across the board must be given notice. A McCain win will set this REVOLUTION back big time.

In 2 years the mid terms. We must be ready. Pray McCain loses.

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 10:00 PM
Yes, which is to destroy the CURRENT repub. party that RON PAUL REPUDIATED and replace the leadership from the groundup. Grassroots on the march. A vote for McCain is not the way to destroy the party. Republicans across the board must be given notice. A McCain win will set this REVOLUTION back big time.

In 2 years the mid terms. We must be ready. Pray McCain loses.

My goals are not to destroy the GOP.. My goal are to educate people to liberty issues and build the movement to be a large enough group to make a difference ... period.

ClockwiseSpark
11-02-2008, 10:00 PM
Nice! Just a smidge over 10% voting for one of the two major parties.

I think those who do vote for McBama will cancel each other out for the most part, with a slight advantage to Obama. That is just based on the responses I get from the people in my meetup. One person out of 150 has defected to the McCain camp and they now take their marching orders from the GOP while about 5 people are saying they will vote Obama in the hopes of damaging the GOP further.

All in all, the Obama people still work with us and while I disagree with the motivation I understand the feeling behind it. The McCain supporter on the other hand is now actively working against us with the GOP officers locally (She's an officer herself now, the perks of betrayal I guess).

Anti Federalist
11-02-2008, 10:02 PM
The McBama support on this forum is insignificant.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=163643

The fuckers are goddamn loud though.:mad:

Kludge
11-02-2008, 10:04 PM
The fuckers are goddamn loud though.:mad:

They believe they are enlightened and have a new perspective to share, as opposed to RP/Barr/Chuck supporters who would be preaching to the choir.

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 10:07 PM
They believe they are enlightened and have a new perspective to share, as opposed to RP/Barr/Chuck supporters who would be preaching to the choir.

Incorrect... at least as far as I am concerned...

Theocrat
11-02-2008, 10:08 PM
If you're voting for McCain (Or Osamabama)just to try and not have Obama. Fuck you. I been part of the Ron Paul thing > Campaign for Liberty for a long time, and to see you all lose your base principles disgusts me. I'm going to vote for Chuck Baldwin constitution party, Bob Barr is a fucking jerkoff so he went down the toilet.

I would say most members here who are voting for McCain are doing so only because they are sorely afraid of Obama. They've become victims of the "Boogyman tactic" of voting for the lesser of two evils.

Kludge
11-02-2008, 10:11 PM
Incorrect... at least as far as I am concerned...

McBama supporters do not believe themselves enlightened even though they go against the crowd?

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 10:12 PM
I would say most members here who are voting for McCain are doing so only because they are sorely afraid of Obama. They've become victims of the "Boogyman tactic" of voting for the lesser of two evils.

How many time do I have to say.... There ARE different levels of evil and mccains "evil" is less than obamas "evil"

you can make these accusations all you want but catagorizing people and pigeon holing people into "YOUR" pigeon holes is pretty shallow and short sighted..

Theocrat
11-02-2008, 10:31 PM
How many time do I have to say.... There ARE different levels of evil and mccains "evil" is less than obamas "evil"

you can make these accusations all you want but catagorizing people and pigeon holing people into "YOUR" pigeon holes is pretty shallow and short sighted..

Evil is evil, no matter how you try to justify it qualitatively. Also, you might be interested to know that in my post I was very careful to state that most members here vote for McCain out of fear. I never said all members do.

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 10:37 PM
McBama supporters do not believe themselves enlightened even though they go against the crowd?

No... I simply believe we have a difference of opinion on what needs to be done for THIS ELECTION..

simple.... nothing to do with being more enlightened or inttelligent...

Cleaner44
11-02-2008, 10:38 PM
How many time do I have to say.... There ARE different levels of evil and mccains "evil" is less than obamas "evil"

you can make these accusations all you want but catagorizing people and pigeon holing people into "YOUR" pigeon holes is pretty shallow and short sighted..

You are pathetic for giving into the "lesser of two evils" method of voting. Has some balls and stop living in fear. My God man, grow a set!

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 10:41 PM
Evil is evil, no matter how you try to justify it qualitatively. Also, you might be interested to know that in my post I was very careful to state that most members here vote for McCain out of fear. I never said all members do.

Ok tell me something...

How bout this...

There is hate speach... a kkk member talk shit about blacks... runs his mouth and flies his flag...

Now another takes a black guy, ties him to a truck and drags him to his death...

Now is there a lesser of two evils?

yes or no?

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 10:46 PM
Well.... I'm waiting.....

do i hear crickets?

Kludge
11-02-2008, 10:47 PM
You are pathetic for giving into the "lesser of two evils" method of voting. Has some balls and stop living in fear. My God man, grow a set!

Why do you believe voting for the lesser of an evil to be "pathetic"? (No articles, please)

Andrew-Austin
11-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Ok tell me something...

How bout this...

There is hate speach... a kkk member talk shit about blacks... runs his mouth and flies his flag...

Now another takes a black guy, ties him to a truck and drags him to his death...

Now is there a lesser of two evils?

yes or no?

Yes, but the the difference between McCain and Obama is negligible compared to the case you just described.

One is mad man who tortures with electric tools, the other is an indiscriminate killer.

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 10:54 PM
Yes, but the the difference between McCain and Obama is negligible compared to the case you just described.

One is mad man who tortures with electric tools, the other is an indiscriminate killer.

Well we disagree on the difference.. I respect your opinion... but i disagree.

And my point was to show thet there is a lesser of evils.... people here dont seem to understand that.

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 11:11 PM
Theocrat... I'm still waiting on your response to the lesser of two evils argument... ?????

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 11:14 PM
Yea.... that is kinda what I thought...

Theocrat
11-02-2008, 11:18 PM
Ok tell me something...

How bout this...

There is hate speach... a kkk member talk shit about blacks... runs his mouth and flies his flag...

Now another takes a black guy, ties him to a truck and drags him to his death...

Now is there a lesser of two evils?

yes or no?

Yes, there is a lesser of two evils, but both of those acts are still inherently evil. Also, you're missing a very important point. The KKK member has the choice to step down from his organization and reconcile with those of Black descent, and that would be the right and proper thing to do. He should even be told that is what he must do, lest he bring about further mischief and suffering to those of other ethnicities.

Anti Federalist
11-02-2008, 11:19 PM
Theocrat... I'm still waiting on your response to the lesser of two evils argument... ?????

I already answered that last night.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=165762&page=3

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 11:22 PM
Yes, there is a lesser of two evils, but both of those acts are still inherently evil. Also, you're missing a very important point. The KKK member has the choice to step down from his organization and reconcile with those of Black descent, and that would be the right and proper thing to do. He should even be told that is what he must do, lest he bring about further mischief and suffering to those of other ethnicities.

mmm a lot of side stepping there...

The point (and only point) is that THERE IS a lesser of two evils.

Now, with that established, one has to determine what is evil or not.

each person has their own opinion...

now please people dont tell me how "stupid" i am for "falling" for this fallacy...


In my opinion in this election mccain is better for the liberty movement than obama...

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 11:24 PM
I already answered that last night.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=165762&page=3

with a non answer... you answered with a diversion... not addressing weather there is a lesser of two evils...

Anti Federalist
11-02-2008, 11:29 PM
with a non answer... you answered with a diversion... not addressing weather there is a lesser of two evils...

*sigh*

Of course there is a "lesser of two evils". The concept is reflected in law. Jaywalking is not equal to murder.

But we are speaking of candidates for president.

Both candidates will continue and expand war, based on unconstitutional and therefore illegal grounds.

Thus, in this case, there is no "lesser of two evils" just on this issue alone.

Anti Federalist
11-02-2008, 11:30 PM
Obama/McCain, It's All the Same...

Foreign Policy
- Both support an aggressive, interventionist foreign policy
- Both support the "Bush Doctrine" of preemptive war on sovereign nations
- Neither support scaling down the enormous expenditure of policing and occupying the world by closing any one of the 700 bases we have in over 140 countries worldwide
- Both will expand the war in Iraq into Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria
- Both will expand U.N.

operations worldwide
- Both pay lip service to our continued support of Israel, while not mentioning the fact that we give 3 times as much monetary aid to its enemies
- Neither has mentioned the idea of not sending any monetary aid to other countries while the People of America suffer the consequences of a $1 trillion deficit and a $10 trillion + debt
- Both took an offensive stance against Russia, while supporting Georgia, the true aggressors in the Russian/Georgian conflict.. and of course neither has talked about just staying out of the situation all together
- Neither has taken anything, including a preemptive nuclear strike, off the table when dealing with Iran
- Neither support the humble, non-interventionist foreign policy that our Founding Fathers prescribed

Domestic Policy
- Both support the Patriot Act
- Both support the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act
- Both will increase Federal spending
- Both support the expansion of our borders 100 miles inland effectively creating a "Constitution Free Zone" that encompasses 2/3 of all Americans
- Neither plan to abolish any one of the unconstitutional or redundant departments of the Federal government
- Both support the militarization of our police
- Both support the construction of hundreds of FEMA controlled detention camps across the US
- Neither plan on reinstating the Constitutional principle of property rights as a way of combating pollution
- Both support amnesty for illegal immigrants
- Both support the North American Union
- Both support NAFTA, CAFTA and the WTO as opposed to truly free trade
- Neither support the 10th Amendment of our Bill of Rights by continuing the many unconstitutional programs and laws that do not fall under the authority of the Federal government
- Neither support a healthcare or education system controlled by the People as opposed to government bureaucracies and corporations
- Neither support states' rights in regard to drugs, education, abortion or marriage
- Neither support an un-infringed 2nd amendment

Economy
- Both support the unconstitutional Federal Reserve System
- Both support the redistribution of wealth via inflation
- Neither support free market solutions to our current economic situation
- Neither support Article 1 Sections 8 and 9 of the Constitution by continuing the confiscation of the People's money, gold and silver, in place of a FIAT currency system
- Both support an increased influence of such global government entities as the IMF and world bank
- Both supported the $850 billion+ Wall Street bailout bill
- Both support expanding government intervention in our market
- Both support the income tax and 16th amendment
- Neither have alternative plans for the future of welfare programs such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicade but will both continue or even expand these programs that are bankrupting our nation

Miscellaneous
- Both have accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars from banks, major corporations and lobbyists
- Both are supporters of the globalist Council on Foreign Relations
- Neither support continued investigations of the events of 9/11/01
- Neither believe in strict adherence to the Constitution
- Neither support holding charges against or the impeachment of President George W.

Bush for his blatant disregard of our Constitution and his breaking of so many laws thereof and international treaties
- Neither will grant full pardons to Ignacio Ramos or Jose Compean
- Both of their vice-presidential candidates plan to use more power than is vested in them by the Constitution
- Both believe the United States to be a Democracy as opposed to the Constitutional Republic that the Constitution and our Founding Fathers intended

Theocrat
11-02-2008, 11:33 PM
mmm a lot of side stepping there...

The point (and only point) is that THERE IS a lesser of two evils.

Now, with that established, one has to determine what is evil or not.

each person has their own opinion...

now please people dont tell me how "stupid" i am for "falling" for this fallacy...


In my opinion in this election mccain is better for the liberty movement than obama...

I guess you didn't get the main idea of my post, which was you don't ever have to vote for the lesser of two evils because there's always a better choice.

By the way, I don't think I've ever called you "stupid" for voting the lesser of two evils. I simply called it an evil act on your part as well as whoever else does it.

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 11:33 PM
*sigh*

Of course there is a "lesser of two evils". The concept is reflected in law. Jaywalking is not equal to murder.

But we are speaking of candidates for president.

Both candidates will continue and expand war, based on unconstitutional and therefore illegal grounds.

Thus, in this case, there is no "lesser of two evils" just on this issue alone.

But people here so casually throw out this no lesser of two evils as though it is a given that everyone has to get in line with and that if you have a different opinion.. you are an idiot...

Kludge
11-02-2008, 11:35 PM
Why do you believe voting for the lesser of an evil to be "pathetic"? (No articles, please)

Bump?

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 11:37 PM
I guess you didn't get the main idea of my post, which was you don't ever have to vote for the lesser of two evils because there's always a better choice.

By the way, I don't think I've ever called you "stupid" for voting the lesser of two evils. I simply called it an evil act on your part as well as whoever else does it.

Well the better choice leads (with most people here) to the "false choice fallacy" which I think is the "false reality fallacy"

one of these two (mccain or obama) WILL BE the next pres. there is no other "real" choice... this is the reality...


you did not call me names and forgive me if i am putting on you the actions of others... I have been lam basted here.. curse.. ridiculed... and so on..

Anti Federalist
11-02-2008, 11:42 PM
But people here so casually throw out this no lesser of two evils as though it is a given that everyone has to get in line with and that if you have a different opinion.. you are an idiot...

Well, I can't speak for other mother's children.

But in my case, and I believe in the case of others that think the same way, the general point we are making is that, regardless if there is a concept of "lesser of two evils" in a philosophical sense, it makes no difference.

One: evil is still evil, and...

Two: in this case, Obama or McCain, on some very critical, life and death issues, exhibit no difference.

Obama = McCain

Theocrat
11-02-2008, 11:43 PM
Well the better choice leads (with most people here) to the "false choice fallacy" which I think is the "false reality fallacy"

one of these two (mccain or obama) WILL BE the next pres. there is no other "real" choice... this is the reality...


you did not call me names and forgive me if i am putting on you the actions of others... I have been lam basted here.. curse.. ridiculed... and so on..

I think Anti Federalist (via ItsTime) has done a good job of showing that McCain and Obama are pretty much the same choice, either way you vote. It's not a false reality, but we wish to remain consistent in our convictions/principles and base our votes on true morality by choosing the best candidate for the office, period. After all, a wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf.

Anti Federalist
11-02-2008, 11:44 PM
Lifted from LewRockwellBlog.

Laurence, you wouldn't believe the absolute pro-McCain dogmatism among some Catholics, and especially among those who call themselves "traditional." (Indeed, polling shows that those who identify themselves as "traditional" are lobsidedly Republican and support the GOP and its policies.) The last time I checked, killing babies outside the womb was also an evil, but the fact that McCain plans to continue with zest a war that regularly results in toddlers and infants having their flesh burned off by American bombs seems to bother none of them. Apparently, if one is a "conservative" or "traditional" Catholic, Catholic Just War theory is a big waste of time.

When confronted with a serious moral problem, Christians are bound to choose "none of the above" when confronted with two evils, even when one is a greater evil than the other. Consider a thought experiment:

You have been captured by a band of criminals. In a room stands you, two criminals, and 11 children. Criminal A hands you a gun and tells you to shoot one of the children in the head or the other 10 will be murdered by criminal B who has a machine gun. What do you do?

UPDATED

Saint Augustine established about 1600 years ago that the proper response in this case is to say "I chose neither. I will not cooperate in committing evil."

This is the proper response for several reasons:

1. 10 children are not worth more than 1 child. Each human person is infinitely valuable, and for you to cooperate in the murder of one of them, no matter what your motivation, is to be a murderer, and no less a murderer than the one who murders 10. Humans cannot be reduced to math equations in Christian morality.

2. If criminal B proceeds to murder 10 children, you are not morally culpable. The murderers are the criminals, not you. You have a responsibility to not damn yourself and to not cooperate in evil.

3. You cannot predict the future. You don't know that if you shoot the one child that the criminals will keep their words and spare the children. It could be that you will all be murdered no matter what, and all that you have accomplished is to become a murderer yourself. You also don't know that if you spare the one, that the criminals won't spare all of you for some other reason.

There is no ethically relevant different between this case and the case of choosing between a rabid pro-abortion candidate, and a rabid pro-war candidate. McCain, in my judgement is a godless man who thinks that Catholic Just War theory is utterly meaningless, and who thinks it's hilarious to sing songs about bombing women and children in Iran.

Besides, there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that a McCain presidency will result in the overturning of Roe v. Wade, or that abortion will be seriously rolled back at all. God knows 8 years of recent Republican rule (6 of them with virtually total GOP control)produced nothing in this regard.

Many Christians are choosing to shoot the one child in the vain hope of saving the lives of the other 10. For this, they wil be called to account.

Another timeless truth - "It is better to endure an evil than to commit one."

Orgoonian
11-02-2008, 11:45 PM
Well the better choice leads (with most people here) to the "false choice fallacy" which I think is the "false reality fallacy"

one of these two (mccain or obama) WILL BE the next pres. there is no other "real" choice... this is the reality...


you did not call me names and forgive me if i am putting on you the actions of others... I have been lam basted here.. curse.. ridiculed... and so on..


Hows the new site going?
I'm suprised to see you still shilling here.:confused:

Seriously,are you so obtuse as to not see why your opinion is laughed at here?
This is a forum for liberty,not the status quo.
You complaining about your treatment here,is like a person going to a disco,and complaining there is no rock,and roll.

Anti Federalist
11-02-2008, 11:46 PM
I think Anti Federalist (via ItsTime) .

Erf, you're right, I forgot to give credit.

JK/SEA
11-02-2008, 11:46 PM
Well, this is easy. Do i concur with EndtheFeds strategy, or do i follow Ron Pauls lead on his strategy on what to do with the CURRENT leadership of the Republican party?... Seems to me if you keep voting for these ....ahem...little darlins'...they will not go away, and we will never reform this party. It will be same ol' cowboys forever .

Geez, McCains operatives are working overtime in here. Do you get time and a half with bennies?

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 11:47 PM
Well, I can't speak for other mother's children.

But in my case, and I believe in the case of others that think the same way, the general point we are making is that, regardless if there is a concept of "lesser of two evils" in a philosophical sense, it makes no difference.

One: evil is still evil, and...

Two: in this case, Obama or McCain, on some very critical, life and death issues, exhibit no difference.

Obama = McCain

As I have said many times... I think there are BIG differences in things like the supreme court... I also think obama could do harm to the liberty movement that could be very hard to undo....

ClockwiseSpark
11-02-2008, 11:48 PM
I also think obama could do harm to the liberty movement that could be very hard to undo....

Elaborate.

EndTheFed
11-02-2008, 11:49 PM
Well, this is easy. Do i concur with EndtheFeds strategy, or do i follow Ron Pauls lead on his strategy on what to do with the CURRENT leadership of the Republican party?... Seems to me if you keep voting for these ....ahem...little darlins'...they will not go away, and we will never reform this party. It will be same ol' cowboys forever .

Geez, McCains operatives are working overtime in here. Do you get time and a half with bennies?


I am not a RP ophile.... I appreciate and respect the man and his bringing important issues to the forefront but he IS NOT perfect... I think he has made some serious mistakes...

raiha
11-02-2008, 11:52 PM
Obama/McCain, It's All the Same...

Foreign Policy
- Both support an aggressive, interventionist foreign policy
- Both support the "Bush Doctrine" of preemptive war on sovereign nations
- Neither support scaling down the enormous expenditure of policing and occupying the world by closing any one of the 700 bases we have in over 140 countries worldwide
- Both will expand the war in Iraq into Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria
- Both will expand U.N.

operations worldwide
- Both pay lip service to our continued support of Israel, while not mentioning the fact that we give 3 times as much monetary aid to its enemies
- Neither has mentioned the idea of not sending any monetary aid to other countries while the People of America suffer the consequences of a $1 trillion deficit and a $10 trillion + debt
- Both took an offensive stance against Russia, while supporting Georgia, the true aggressors in the Russian/Georgian conflict.. and of course neither has talked about just staying out of the situation all together
- Neither has taken anything, including a preemptive nuclear strike, off the table when dealing with Iran
- Neither support the humble, non-interventionist foreign policy that our Founding Fathers prescribed

Domestic Policy
- Both support the Patriot Act
- Both support the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act
- Both will increase Federal spending
- Both support the expansion of our borders 100 miles inland effectively creating a "Constitution Free Zone" that encompasses 2/3 of all Americans
- Neither plan to abolish any one of the unconstitutional or redundant departments of the Federal government
- Both support the militarization of our police
- Both support the construction of hundreds of FEMA controlled detention camps across the US
- Neither plan on reinstating the Constitutional principle of property rights as a way of combating pollution
- Both support amnesty for illegal immigrants
- Both support the North American Union
- Both support NAFTA, CAFTA and the WTO as opposed to truly free trade
- Neither support the 10th Amendment of our Bill of Rights by continuing the many unconstitutional programs and laws that do not fall under the authority of the Federal government
- Neither support a healthcare or education system controlled by the People as opposed to government bureaucracies and corporations
- Neither support states' rights in regard to drugs, education, abortion or marriage
- Neither support an un-infringed 2nd amendment

Economy
- Both support the unconstitutional Federal Reserve System
- Both support the redistribution of wealth via inflation
- Neither support free market solutions to our current economic situation
- Neither support Article 1 Sections 8 and 9 of the Constitution by continuing the confiscation of the People's money, gold and silver, in place of a FIAT currency system
- Both support an increased influence of such global government entities as the IMF and world bank
- Both supported the $850 billion+ Wall Street bailout bill
- Both support expanding government intervention in our market
- Both support the income tax and 16th amendment
- Neither have alternative plans for the future of welfare programs such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicade but will both continue or even expand these programs that are bankrupting our nation

Miscellaneous
- Both have accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars from banks, major corporations and lobbyists
- Both are supporters of the globalist Council on Foreign Relations
- Neither support continued investigations of the events of 9/11/01
- Neither believe in strict adherence to the Constitution
- Neither support holding charges against or the impeachment of President George W.

Bush for his blatant disregard of our Constitution and his breaking of so many laws thereof and international treaties
- Neither will grant full pardons to Ignacio Ramos or Jose Compean
- Both of their vice-presidential candidates plan to use more power than is vested in them by the Constitution
- Both believe the United States to be a Democracy as opposed to the Constitutional Republic that the Constitution and our Founding Fathers intended


Woah fascinating..thanks for putting that together.

Kludge
11-02-2008, 11:55 PM
Woah fascinating..thanks for putting that together.

+1. Wish I had read it sooner.

JK/SEA
11-02-2008, 11:56 PM
I am not a RP ophile.... I appreciate and respect the man and his bringing important issues to the forefront but he IS NOT perfect... I think he has made some serious mistakes...


And there it is!...

got some news for you..this is the RON PAUL FORUMS. That means this site is dedicated to the principles and wisdom of RON PAUL. NOT John McCain.

You want to continue with your circular argument in here about how we should vote, then may i suggest another tactic, because this is getting rather amusing, and is actually kind of funny now.

carry on.

Anti Federalist
11-02-2008, 11:59 PM
Woah fascinating..thanks for putting that together.

Wish I could take credit but RPF member It's Time deserves the props for that list. ;)

Join The Paul Side
11-03-2008, 12:00 AM
If you're voting for McCain (Or Osamabama)just to try and not have Obama. Fuck you. I been part of the Ron Paul thing > Campaign for Liberty for a long time, and to see you all lose your base principles disgusts me. I'm going to vote for Chuck Baldwin constitution party, Bob Barr is a fucking jerkoff so he went down the toilet.


I can understand not liking Obama. But to resort to calling him Osamabama or any other derogatory name leads me to believe that you and other posters that do it are closet racists neocon facists and I believe you all belong in the same camp as those other McCain/Palin nutcase freaks.

Why don't you just carve a backwards 'B' on your face and scream the black man did it?

Theocrat
11-03-2008, 12:01 AM
I can understand not liking Obama. But to resort to calling him Osamabama or any other derogatory name leads me to believe that you and other posters that do it are closet racists neocon facists and I believe you all belong in the same camp as those other McCain/Palin nutcase freaks.

Why don't you just carve a backwards 'B' on your face and scream the black man did it?

Are they allowed to use Barack Obama's middle name when posting about him?

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:03 AM
And there it is!...

got some news for you..this is the RON PAUL FORUMS. That means this site is dedicated to the principles and wisdom of RON PAUL. NOT John McCain.

You want to continue with your circular argument in here about how we should vote, then may i suggest another tactic, because this is getting rather amusing, and is actually kind of funny now.

carry on.

Are you dense? believing in principles and understanding someones wisdom does NOT mean you have to be in "LOCK STEP" with them. That is a VERY dangerous way to live... so are you suggesting that anyone who disagrees with anything RP says should leave? really?

Anti Federalist
11-03-2008, 12:05 AM
As I have said many times... I think there are BIG differences in things like the supreme court... I also think obama could do harm to the liberty movement that could be very hard to undo....

The SCOTUS?

Hummph...got one name for you, Harriet Myers.

And yes, Obama could very well prove to be disastrous to the liberty movement.

So what? Keep your powder dry and bring it on. There are four lines in the sand government isn't going to cross with me without a fight. So fine, let's do it, and stop pussy footing around.

Furthermore, I don't think we'll have any chance of restoring liberty until the wars end. Not only is there the question of "retribution" for continuing a policy that has left hundreds of thousands dead, there is also the fact that nothing, but nothing, grows the power and control of the state faster than war.

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:07 AM
The SCOTUS?

Hummph...got one name for you, Harriet Myers.

And yes, Obama could very well prove to be disastrous to the liberty movement.

So what? Keep your powder dry and bring it on. There are four lines in the sand government isn't going to cross with me without a fight. So fine, let's do it, and stop pussy footing around.

Furthermore, I don't think we'll have any chance of restoring liberty until the wars end. Not only is there the question of "retribution" for continuing a policy that has left hundreds of thousands dead, there is also the fact that nothing, but nothing, grows the power and control of the state faster than war.

Well I aint quite there yet... YET!!!

JK/SEA
11-03-2008, 12:09 AM
Are you dense? believing in principles and understanding someones wisdom does NOT mean you have to be in "LOCK STEP" with them. That is a VERY dangerous way to live... so are you suggesting that anyone who disagrees with anything RP says should leave? really?

Its a STRATEGY. Yours will not work.

And Ron Paul is a brilliant man. Couldn't think of anyone else who is more fit to lead a revolution. Can you? John Adams is dead, so i'm stuck with Ron.

Yes, you should leave. You are counter productive, and you don't seem to grasp the long range goal, of which i am working on with thousands of others.

Anything else?

Theocrat
11-03-2008, 12:12 AM
Its a STRATEGY. Yours will not work.

And Ron Paul is a brilliant man. Couldn't think of anyone else who is more fit to lead a revolution. Can you? John Adams is dead, so i'm stuck with Ron.

Yes, you should leave. You are counter productive, and you don't seem to grasp the long range goal, of which i am working on with thoudsands of others.

Anything else?

It's okay. He's free to speak his mind on here, and I welcome his input. After all, if you all can tolerate me (being a theocrat and in the minority here as such), then surely you can suffer someone with EndTheFed's convictions on these forums, even if he supports McCainiac.

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:13 AM
Its a STRATEGY. Yours will not work.

And Ron Paul is a brilliant man. Couldn't think of anyone else who is more fit to lead a revolution. Can you? John Adams is dead, so i'm stuck with Ron.

Yes, you should leave. You are counter productive, and you don't seem to grasp the long range goal, of which i am working on with thousands of others.

Anything else?

Yes....

Ron pauls leadership is part of where I have a problem with... he was not leading. So are you in "LOCK STEP" with him?

The questions I asked which you did not address was should anyone who disagrees with anything RP says should leave?

JK/SEA
11-03-2008, 12:14 AM
It's okay. He's free to speak his mind on here, and I welcome his input. After all, if you all can tolerate me (being a theocrat and in the minority here as such), then surely you can suffer someone with EndTheFed's convictions on these forums, even if he supports McCainiac.


Ordinarily i would agree with you. BUT..circular arguments bore me.

He is an operative.

Join The Paul Side
11-03-2008, 12:15 AM
Are they allowed to use Barack Obama's middle name when posting about him?

It's a free country.....for now. They can say just whatever they want. I respect their First Amendment rights.

AS far as using his middle name, fine by me. But depending on how they use it will further lead me to believe that they are closet racists neocon facists that belong in the McCain/Palin nutcase freak camp carving backwards 'B's in their face. ;)

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:16 AM
Ordinarily i would agree with you. BUT..circular arguments bore me.

He is an operative.

OK you have made an accusation... where is the circular reasoning?

JK/SEA
11-03-2008, 12:23 AM
Yes....

Ron pauls leadership is part of where I have a problem with... he was not leading. So are you in "LOCK STEP" with him?

The questions I asked which you did not address was should anyone who disagrees with anything RP says should leave?


Your call if you want to leave. I can't reach into my monitor and toss you out, but know this. ...i know who you work for, and you've made that clear. What do you expect?

And as to being in LOCKSTEP'. Thats a baited question, but i'll answer it this way. I think Ron Paul is the greatest Statesmen in my lifetime. How could you argue with anyone about his consistant stand on the Constitution? and the economy? and his consistant voting record? we should all follow his example, but i am just a humble man who sees greatness in this man and will follow his lead until further notice...ok? thankyou.

Go ahead and vote for whoever you want, but your strategy is false, and is a tactic to be used on sheeple. May find a few in here, but not many. You amuse, so like i said...carry on.

JK/SEA
11-03-2008, 12:26 AM
OK you have made an accusation... where is the circular reasoning?


Your 'strategy'..you are like a Minah bird about it.

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:27 AM
Your call if you want to leave. I can't reach into my monitor and toss you out, but know this. ...i know who you work for, and you've made that clear. What do you expect?

And as to being in LOCKSTEP'. Thats a baited question, but i'll answer it this way. I think Ron Paul is the greatest Statesmen in my lifetime. How could you argue with anyone about his consistant stand on the Constitution? and the economy? and his consistant voting record? we should all follow his example, but i am just a humble man who sees greatness in this man and will follow his lead until further notice...ok? thankyou.

Go ahead and vote for whoever you want, but your strategy is false, and is a tactic to be used on sheeple. May find a few in here, but not many. You amuse, so like i said...carry on.

Thank you for your permission... I work for a wireless company in north alabama..

and I do contract work on the side for the army... that is all

Do you believe RP practices the lesser of two evils...?

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:28 AM
Your 'strategy'..you are like a Minah bird about it.

What is my "strategy"?

nbhadja
11-03-2008, 12:31 AM
Well we disagree on the difference.. I respect your opinion... but i disagree.

And my point was to show thet there is a lesser of evils.... people here dont seem to understand that.

It is not an opinion, it is a fact! Obama and McCain are the same.

Stop trolling around for you big government pro war pro inflation pro debt liberal McCain.

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:33 AM
It is not an opinion, it is a fact! Obama and McCain are the same.

Stop trolling around for you big government pro war pro inflation pro debt liberal McCain.

What a rediculouis statement... come in in the middle of a conversation and make some stupid ass statement...

:p

nbhadja
11-03-2008, 12:33 AM
Obama/McCain, It's All the Same...

Foreign Policy
- Both support an aggressive, interventionist foreign policy
- Both support the "Bush Doctrine" of preemptive war on sovereign nations
- Neither support scaling down the enormous expenditure of policing and occupying the world by closing any one of the 700 bases we have in over 140 countries worldwide
- Both will expand the war in Iraq into Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria
- Both will expand U.N.

operations worldwide
- Both pay lip service to our continued support of Israel, while not mentioning the fact that we give 3 times as much monetary aid to its enemies
- Neither has mentioned the idea of not sending any monetary aid to other countries while the People of America suffer the consequences of a $1 trillion deficit and a $10 trillion + debt
- Both took an offensive stance against Russia, while supporting Georgia, the true aggressors in the Russian/Georgian conflict.. and of course neither has talked about just staying out of the situation all together
- Neither has taken anything, including a preemptive nuclear strike, off the table when dealing with Iran
- Neither support the humble, non-interventionist foreign policy that our Founding Fathers prescribed

Domestic Policy
- Both support the Patriot Act
- Both support the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act
- Both will increase Federal spending
- Both support the expansion of our borders 100 miles inland effectively creating a "Constitution Free Zone" that encompasses 2/3 of all Americans
- Neither plan to abolish any one of the unconstitutional or redundant departments of the Federal government
- Both support the militarization of our police
- Both support the construction of hundreds of FEMA controlled detention camps across the US
- Neither plan on reinstating the Constitutional principle of property rights as a way of combating pollution
- Both support amnesty for illegal immigrants
- Both support the North American Union
- Both support NAFTA, CAFTA and the WTO as opposed to truly free trade
- Neither support the 10th Amendment of our Bill of Rights by continuing the many unconstitutional programs and laws that do not fall under the authority of the Federal government
- Neither support a healthcare or education system controlled by the People as opposed to government bureaucracies and corporations
- Neither support states' rights in regard to drugs, education, abortion or marriage
- Neither support an un-infringed 2nd amendment

Economy
- Both support the unconstitutional Federal Reserve System
- Both support the redistribution of wealth via inflation
- Neither support free market solutions to our current economic situation
- Neither support Article 1 Sections 8 and 9 of the Constitution by continuing the confiscation of the People's money, gold and silver, in place of a FIAT currency system
- Both support an increased influence of such global government entities as the IMF and world bank
- Both supported the $850 billion+ Wall Street bailout bill
- Both support expanding government intervention in our market
- Both support the income tax and 16th amendment
- Neither have alternative plans for the future of welfare programs such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicade but will both continue or even expand these programs that are bankrupting our nation

Miscellaneous
- Both have accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars from banks, major corporations and lobbyists
- Both are supporters of the globalist Council on Foreign Relations
- Neither support continued investigations of the events of 9/11/01
- Neither believe in strict adherence to the Constitution
- Neither support holding charges against or the impeachment of President George W.

Bush for his blatant disregard of our Constitution and his breaking of so many laws thereof and international treaties
- Neither will grant full pardons to Ignacio Ramos or Jose Compean
- Both of their vice-presidential candidates plan to use more power than is vested in them by the Constitution
- Both believe the United States to be a Democracy as opposed to the Constitutional Republic that the Constitution and our Founding Fathers intended

Excellent post. I noticed that liberal Endthefed completely ignored this.

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:35 AM
Excellent post.

Does not address the supreme court or the effects obama will have on the liberty movement...

nbhadja
11-03-2008, 12:35 AM
What a rediculouis statement... come in in the middle of a conversation and make some stupid ass statement...

:p

Obama/McCain, It's All the Same...

Foreign Policy
- Both support an aggressive, interventionist foreign policy
- Both support the "Bush Doctrine" of preemptive war on sovereign nations
- Neither support scaling down the enormous expenditure of policing and occupying the world by closing any one of the 700 bases we have in over 140 countries worldwide
- Both will expand the war in Iraq into Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria
- Both will expand U.N.

operations worldwide
- Both pay lip service to our continued support of Israel, while not mentioning the fact that we give 3 times as much monetary aid to its enemies
- Neither has mentioned the idea of not sending any monetary aid to other countries while the People of America suffer the consequences of a $1 trillion deficit and a $10 trillion + debt
- Both took an offensive stance against Russia, while supporting Georgia, the true aggressors in the Russian/Georgian conflict.. and of course neither has talked about just staying out of the situation all together
- Neither has taken anything, including a preemptive nuclear strike, off the table when dealing with Iran
- Neither support the humble, non-interventionist foreign policy that our Founding Fathers prescribed

Domestic Policy
- Both support the Patriot Act
- Both support the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act
- Both will increase Federal spending
- Both support the expansion of our borders 100 miles inland effectively creating a "Constitution Free Zone" that encompasses 2/3 of all Americans
- Neither plan to abolish any one of the unconstitutional or redundant departments of the Federal government
- Both support the militarization of our police
- Both support the construction of hundreds of FEMA controlled detention camps across the US
- Neither plan on reinstating the Constitutional principle of property rights as a way of combating pollution
- Both support amnesty for illegal immigrants
- Both support the North American Union
- Both support NAFTA, CAFTA and the WTO as opposed to truly free trade
- Neither support the 10th Amendment of our Bill of Rights by continuing the many unconstitutional programs and laws that do not fall under the authority of the Federal government
- Neither support a healthcare or education system controlled by the People as opposed to government bureaucracies and corporations
- Neither support states' rights in regard to drugs, education, abortion or marriage
- Neither support an un-infringed 2nd amendment

Economy
- Both support the unconstitutional Federal Reserve System
- Both support the redistribution of wealth via inflation
- Neither support free market solutions to our current economic situation
- Neither support Article 1 Sections 8 and 9 of the Constitution by continuing the confiscation of the People's money, gold and silver, in place of a FIAT currency system
- Both support an increased influence of such global government entities as the IMF and world bank
- Both supported the $850 billion+ Wall Street bailout bill
- Both support expanding government intervention in our market
- Both support the income tax and 16th amendment
- Neither have alternative plans for the future of welfare programs such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicade but will both continue or even expand these programs that are bankrupting our nation

Miscellaneous
- Both have accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars from banks, major corporations and lobbyists
- Both are supporters of the globalist Council on Foreign Relations
- Neither support continued investigations of the events of 9/11/01
- Neither believe in strict adherence to the Constitution
- Neither support holding charges against or the impeachment of President George W.

Bush for his blatant disregard of our Constitution and his breaking of so many laws thereof and international treaties
- Neither will grant full pardons to Ignacio Ramos or Jose Compean
- Both of their vice-presidential candidates plan to use more power than is vested in them by the Constitution
- Both believe the United States to be a Democracy as opposed to the Constitutional Republic that the Constitution and our Founding Fathers intended

Kludge
11-03-2008, 12:35 AM
rediculouis statement... stupid ass statement...

Misspelled and redundant!


I'm going to bed now, enjoy. :)

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:36 AM
As I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbhadja
Excellent post.

Does not address the supreme court or the effects obama will have on the liberty movement...

nbhadja
11-03-2008, 12:36 AM
Does not address the supreme court or the effects obama will have on the liberty movement...

Wth are you talking about?
It shows how Obama and McCain are identical in every category.

Now I know you are a McCain troll. You are oblivious to reality.

Anti Federalist
11-03-2008, 12:38 AM
Misspelled and redundant!


I'm going to bed now, enjoy. :)

http://www.theinterpretersfriend.com/misc/humr/laugh.gif

EndTheFed
11-03-2008, 12:41 AM
Wth are you talking about?
It shows how Obama and McCain are identical in every category.

Now I know you are a McCain troll. You are oblivious to reality.

WHere in this list does it address obama/mccain effects on the supreme court appointees... it doesnt...

Where does it address the effects of obama on the liberty movement.. it doesnt...

All it does is list similarities... it doesnt address the diferences wich is important when making a decision about voting...

Lovecraftian4Paul
11-03-2008, 06:34 AM
WHere in this list does it address obama/mccain effects on the supreme court appointees... it doesnt...

Where does it address the effects of obama on the liberty movement.. it doesnt...

All it does is list similarities... it doesnt address the diferences wich is important when making a decision about voting...

That's the point. There is no difference between Obama and McCain, only in the trash promises they make to left or right to keep the illusion of choice going.

.Tom
11-03-2008, 06:52 AM
I'm actually going to write in Dr. Paul. Bob Barr was too neo-conish before he became Mr. Libertarian and Chuck Baldwin is IMO too much of a religious nut. But Ron Paul just seems to make sense on everything and therefore he's getting my vote. :)

angelatc
11-03-2008, 06:53 AM
The fuckers are goddamn loud though.:mad:

No kidding! :)

Lunatics and zealots usually are. Our detractors used to call us loud, remember?

angelatc
11-03-2008, 06:57 AM
WHere in this list does it address obama/mccain effects on the supreme court appointees... .

Bush I was the last RINO who got to appoint a SCOTUS judge, and he brought us Souter. McCain already said that Scalia is too conservative. What world do you live in?

Seems like you're voting on Hope and Change too. You hope McCain will change into a conservative. Good luck with that.

Cleaner44
11-04-2008, 01:43 PM
Why do you believe voting for the lesser of an evil to be "pathetic"? (No articles, please)

Because it condones and endorses the current system of voting that we have.
Because the lesser of two evils is still evil.
Because there are other choice that a voter can be proud of.
Because votong the lesser of two evils is a vote based on fear instead of priciples!

Kludge
11-04-2008, 01:52 PM
Because it condones and endorses the current system of voting that we have.
Because the lesser of two evils is still evil.
Because there are other choice that a voter can be proud of.
Because votong the lesser of two evils is a vote based on fear instead of priciples!

The underlying principles are irrelevant if the end result is a better place to live, no?

libertarian4321
11-06-2008, 06:05 AM
Does not address the supreme court or the effects obama will have on the liberty movement...

How did that McCain vote work out for you?

You SOLD OUT and still LOST.

So what does that make you, a double loser? lol

Nice work, genius.