Voting = Democracy = Bad

[Crash Martinez]

The vote is the individual's primary means of participation in the democratic system. Isn't that a pretty good reason NOT to vote?

How can I express my opposition to democracy - a.k.a. the imposition of the majority's will on the minority - by casting a vote?

I have certainly not always felt this way. It's so tempting to take advantage of any opportunity, or perceived opportunity, to make a difference. But that's just the problem, right? By what authority do I presume to "make a difference" in the lives of others, especially by means of the force of the State? ("force of the State" : but I repeat myself!)

Why, half a year ago I was a "Ron Paul Republican" candidate for State Assembly. My views have changed since then, because I've decided a person is either part of the solution or part of the government.

Discussion?

Who's voting? Why?

[Andrew-Austin]

How can I express my opposition to democracy - a.k.a. the imposition of the majority's will on the minority - by casting a vote?

By voting for someone who does not want to run anyones life, who just wants to limit government.

[Truth Warrior]

"Democracy is the road to socialism." -- Karl Marx

"Socialism in America will come through the ballot box."
by: Gus Hall
[Arvo Gustav Halberg ] (1910-2000) leader of the Communist Party USA and its four-time U.S. presidential candidate
Source: in an interview with the Cleveland Plain-Dealer (1996)

"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting." -- Charles Bukowski

[Crash Martinez]

"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting." -- Charles Bukowski
that's a good one!

[Truth Warrior]

that's a good one! ;)

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

[FrankRep]

;)

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

awesome quote.

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

So then who picks out leaders?

[Truth Warrior]

awesome quote.
;)
"The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid." -- Art Spander

[Crash Martinez]

So then who picks out leaders?

Followers.

[heavenlyboy34]

So then who picks out leaders?

The NWO class. :eek::( (IMHO)

[Dr.3D]

So then who picks out leaders?

Ah ha... someone has come up with the real question of what alternative is there?

Exactly how does a constitutional republic pick who is going to be doing jobs in the government if there is no democracy allowed at all?

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

I personally do not think that democracy in of itself is bad. It just has to be limited by a strong constitution.

I strongly support refferendums and recall elections as long as they are limited by a strong constitution as well.

[Truth Warrior]

So then who picks out leaders? Only children, sheeple and slaves need leaders.<IMHO> ;) :rolleyes:

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

Oh there will be leaders. Make no mistake about that. Removing the system to choose them will just get us some great leaders. Like Adolf Hitler.

[Truth Warrior]

Oh there will be leaders. Make no mistake about that. Removing the system to choose them will just get us some great leaders. Like Adolf Hitler. Hitler was democratically elected. ;) :D

[LibertyEagle]

Only children, sheeple and slaves need leaders.<IMHO> ;) :rolleyes:

And some others choose to sit on the couch and "submit" to those leaders, rather than fight to overturn this unconstitutional government we now have. ;) :rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

And some others choose to sit on the couch and "submit" to those leaders, rather than fight to overturn this unconstitutional government we now have. ;) :rolleyes: YOUR governments, YOUR problems. < YAWN! > :p

[Crash Martinez]

So then who picks out leaders?


Followers.


I can't find it, however hard I google, but I once read a brilliant article about the whole concept of "leaders" and "leadership."

Isn't the election of leaders something of a contradiction in terms? I am not wholly unsympathetic to the idea of public servants being elected, but when they start to be viewed as leaders, I have to agree that it's just dictatorship with a superfluous extra step.

No one has the right to use force or coercion... theft... violence... murder... If an individual "elects" himself to steal from you at gunpoint, he is a criminal. If others elect him to do the same, he is a "leader."

Thanks, but I'm not following.

[LibertyEagle]

YOUR governments, YOUR problems. < YAWN! > :p

:D

Apparently YOURS too, since you have chosen to "submit" to them. ;)

Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition
Main Entry: submit
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: comply, endure
Synonyms: abide, accede, acknowledge, acquiesce, agree, appease, bend, be submissive, bow, buckle, capitulate, cave, cede, concede, defer, eat crow*, fold, give away, give ground, give in, give way, go with the flow, grin and bear it, humor, indulge, knuckle, knuckle under*, kowtow*, lay down arms, obey, put up with, quit, relent, relinquish, resign oneself, say uncle, stoop, succumb, surrender, throw in the towel, toe the line*, tolerate, truckle, withstand, yield
Antonyms: disobey, fight, resist
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/submit&

[Truth Warrior]

I can't find it, however hard I google, but I once read a brilliant article about the whole concept of "leaders" and "leadership."

Isn't the election of leaders something of a contradiction in terms? I am not wholly unsympathetic to the idea of public servants being elected, but when they start to be viewed as leaders, I have to agree that it's just dictatorship with a superfluous extra step.

No one has the right to use force or coercion... theft... violence... murder... If an individual "elects" himself to steal from you at gunpoint, he is a criminal. If others elect him to do the same, he is a "leader."

Thanks, but I'm not following. You just may enjoy this one. ;)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040603041641/http://www.nogov4me.net/whyvoting.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040603041641/http://www.nogov4me.net/whyvoting.htm)

[Truth Warrior]

:D

Apparently YOURS too, since you have chosen to "submit" to them. ;)

Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition
Main Entry: submit
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: comply, endure
Synonyms: abide, accede, acknowledge, acquiesce, agree, appease, bend, be submissive, bow, buckle, capitulate, cave, cede, concede, defer, eat crow*, fold, give away, give ground, give in, give way, go with the flow, grin and bear it, humor, indulge, knuckle, knuckle under*, kowtow*, lay down arms, obey, put up with, quit, relent, relinquish, resign oneself, say uncle, stoop, succumb, surrender, throw in the towel, toe the line*, tolerate, truckle, withstand, yield
Antonyms: disobey, fight, resist
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/submit& Lame! :p :rolleyes:

It's easier to turn an activist into a libertarian than it is to turn libertarian into an activist. ;)

Here's that one you previously chose to IGNORE .................. again. :rolleyes:

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html (http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html)

[LibertyEagle]

Lame! :p :rolleyes:
No, it's called the truth.


It's easier to turn an activist into a libertarian than it is to turn libertarian into an activist. ;)
Which might explain why the Libertarian party never gets anywhere.


Here's that one you previously chose to IGNORE .................. again. :rolleyes:

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html (http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html)

Give me the Cliff's Notes version please, in your own words. C'mon, you can do it. :)

[Truth Warrior]

No, it's called the truth.



Give me the Cliff's Notes version please, in your own words. C'mon, you can do it. :) Nah, because then you'd just rag on my own words. I'm onto your lame-o "gotcha" obsession tactics. ;) They're just BORING.<IMHO> :p

[LibertyEagle]

[B]Nah, because then you'd just rag on my own words.

You have your own words? :p Because the vast majority of what I've seen you post has been links and quotes by other people. ;)

[Crash Martinez]

All right you guys... Settle down or I'll vote you right out of here! hahaha!!

[Truth Warrior]

No, it's called the truth.

A whole bunch of BS is "called" Truth, that why the voters never get anywhere.


Which might explain why the Libertarian party never gets anywhere.

Nah, they're just ineffective statists like you. I've seen the anywhere that you ALWAYS get. MORE government! :p PASS! :rolleyes:

Give me the Cliff's Notes version please, in your own words. C'mon, you can do it. :)

< previously addressed >

:rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

You have your own words? :p Because the vast majority of what I've seen you post has been links and quotes by other people. ;) Sometimes I'm just the messenger. ;)

[Truth Warrior]

All right you guys... Settle down or I'll vote you right out of here! hahaha!! Gee, you're potential mod material. :D I have a replacement suggestion. ;)

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

Hitler was democratically elected. ;) :D

I suggest you study that very closely. There is a lot more to it then that.

[Truth Warrior]

I suggest you study that very closely. There is a lot more to it then that. I have, I know, Hindenburg, chancellor, etc. :rolleyes:

[Crash Martinez]

Still... What about Ron Paul? He exemplifies the best counter-argument my brothers and father have been making when I discuss possibly not voting.

Does voting still legitimate government authority if you only ever vote for candidates whose driving purpose is to reduce the government's power?

[jonhowe]

truth warrior, you crack me up.

I can't tell if you're crazy, or just very very jaded.

You talk about how not voting and no government is the only way to go... and yet you're using the internet? Which is run through all sorts of government filters? Do you generate your own electricity? If not, do you pay taxes on that? What about your home? Surely you must in some way work within modern realities, right?

So if you're going to work within the confines of modern reality, why not do one of the few things you CAN do to change those modern realities: Vote, and furthermore, work to get out the vote for the people you think would be best?

I just don't get it :( If voters are stupid and uninformed, does that making voting bad? Voting doesn't make stupid people, stupid people make stupid votes! So go inform people! Don't give up man, we can do it :)


I hope.

[Truth Warrior]

truth warrior, you crack me up.

I often crack me up too.

I can't tell if you're crazy, or just very very jaded.

Perhaps just realistic.

You talk about how not voting and no government is the only way to go... and yet you're using the internet? Which is run through all sorts of government filters? Do you generate your own electricity? If not, do you pay taxes on that? What about your home? Surely you must in some way work within modern realities, right?

I always pay my extortion. What do you when faced with superior armed firepower?

So if you're going to work within the confines of modern reality, why not do one of the few things you CAN do to change those modern realities: Vote, and furthermore, work to get out the vote for the people you think would be best?

"If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." -- Emma Goldman

I just don't get it :( If voters are stupid and uninformed, does that making voting bad? Voting doesn't make stupid people, stupid people make stupid votes! So go inform people! Don't give up man, we can do it :)

Your question contains your answer.<IMHO> Optimists account for the vast and overwhelming proportion and majority of human caused tragedies and problems in this world.

Don't just do something, stand there.

I hope.

As do I.

:)

Reality rules!

[jonhowe]

Oooooh, so Emma Goldman made fun of voting, so it must be bad? Now I get it :)

I think she also said a great "yo momma so fat" joke once, is your mother obese?*

Hitler made some gut busters about the Jews once, they must suck pretty bad, right?

Did you hear the joke Bush made about WMDs? Haha, that one justified the whole last 8 years :rolleyes:




(No offense intended to any mothers, just trying to make a point)*


Also: Im glad we both get cracked up over you.
That sounds like a song lyric ^

[Truth Warrior]

Oooooh, so Emma Goldman made fun of voting, so it must be bad? Now I get it :)

Emma wasn't making fun, she was DEAD serious, as am I. BTW, that's just a start of voting insanity critiques.

I think she also said a great "yo momma so fat" joke once, is your mother obese?*

No, is your's?

Hitler made some gut busters about the Jews once, they must suck pretty bad, right?

Pretty much!

Did you hear the joke Bush made about WMDs? Haha, that one justified the whole last 8 years :rolleyes:

I didn't vote for him. Did you?

(No offense intended to any mothers, just trying to make a point)*

Try harder.

Also: Im glad we both get cracked up over you.
That sounds like a song lyric ^

I'm glad too. My muse thanks you also.

:rolleyes:

"Voting your way to freedom is like drinking your way to sober." -- TW

[Crash Martinez]

Jews thing: not funny.

[jonhowe]

Yea, I hope it was supposed to be, otherwise it said enough about Truth Warrior to make me stop caring about his opinions anyways... :eek:



Also: Truth Warrior, you didn't get to my point at all. Why should I take Emma Goldman's word? I explained (breifly) why I think how I do. You did not. You merely quoted someone else.

I think YOU need to try harder, if you do indeed want to make a point (and Im not even sure if you do...).

[Truth Warrior]

Yea, I hope it was supposed to be, otherwise it said enough about Truth Warrior to make me stop caring about his opinions anyways... :eek:



Also: Truth Warrior, you didn't get to my point at all. Why should I take Emma Goldman's word? I explained (breifly) why I think how I do. You did not. You merely quoted someone else.

Why reinvent the wheel? :rolleyes: And you're an optimist, and hence a part of the problem, aren't you? Hitler, Stalin and Mao, etc. were optimists too, BTW.

I think YOU need to try harder, if you do indeed want to make a point (and Im not even sure if you do...).

"Don't try. Either do or don't do. There is no try." -- Yoda

"Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false." -- Bertrand Russell

[Crash Martinez]

no response on the jews thing? yeah, that's a problem.

[mport1]

The vote is the individual's primary means of participation in the democratic system. Isn't that a pretty good reason NOT to vote?

How can I express my opposition to democracy - a.k.a. the imposition of the majority's will on the minority - by casting a vote?

I have certainly not always felt this way. It's so tempting to take advantage of any opportunity, or perceived opportunity, to make a difference. But that's just the problem, right? By what authority do I presume to "make a difference" in the lives of others, especially by means of the force of the State? ("force of the State" : but I repeat myself!)

Why, half a year ago I was a "Ron Paul Republican" candidate for State Assembly. My views have changed since then, because I've decided a person is either part of the solution or part of the government.

Discussion?

Who's voting? Why?

A great two part series on voting that you would likely enjoy from Freedomain Radio: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igbBItLemsM) and Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oGMEEE11Lc)

I've got mixed feelings on voting. I went ahead and voted and wrote in "1st choice: abolish the government, 2nd choice: Ron Paul." I think there are good arguments on both sides however I personally feel that voting as a defensive measure is fine and is not necessarily supporting a system. If you were a slave and given the option to choose between a terrible master and one that is much nicer, I don't think it is wrong to vote for the nicer slave master.

[Conza88]

Democracy is bad. ~ Socrates

;)

Bonus points if you know why.... double extra bonus points if you know why he may personally also think that. :p

[The_Orlonater]

;)

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

I may always argue with you, but you do give out some damn fine quotes.

[The_Orlonater]

YOUR governments, YOUR problems. < YAWN! > :p

The government will always be in on you, might as well fight to death!

Wuss! :p

[mediahasyou]

So then who picks out leaders?

Grant no man the authority to make you his slave:
http://www.voluntaryist.com/articles/126a.php

[jonhowe]

"Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false." -- Bertrand Russell


Your pessimism is your own problem. I like to think I have a realistically optimistic view of the world.

You, however, seem to have no hope. Why wake up in the morning?

[Truth Warrior]

Your pessimism is your own problem. I like to think I have a realistically optimistic view of the world.

You, however, seem to have no hope. Why wake up in the morning?

Optimists usually spew that kind of bogus crap about realists. Take off your goofy looking rose colored glasses and get a frickin' clue. :p :rolleyes:

[jonhowe]

Optimists usually spew that kind of bogus crap about realists. Take off your goofy looking rose colored glasses and get a frickin' clue. :p :rolleyes:



Your idea of realism is ignoring your current reality, living within it's confines, mocking the idea of working to make it better, and being hostile to those who do.

I feel as if I have the clue you're missing.

[Mini-Me]

Voting = Democracy = Bad = Evil = Hitler = German = Sauerkraut = Food
Therefore, Food = Evil.

Holy cow, I never had any idea food was so evil, nor did I know that voting was edible!

[jonhowe]

Voting = Democracy = Bad = Evil = Hitler = German = Sauerkraut = Food
Therefore, Food = Evil.

Holy cow, I never had any idea food was so evil, nor did I know that voting was edible!

GENIUS! When are YOU running for President, sir??

[Mini-Me]

GENIUS! When are YOU running for President, sir??

After I figure out how to solve the following contradiction:
Voting = Democracy = Bad = Evil = Hitler = German = Sauerkraut = Food = Survival = Good
Good = Bad.
:confused:

[Truth Warrior]

Your idea of realism is ignoring your current reality, living within it's confines, mocking the idea of working to make it better, and being hostile to those who do.

I feel as if I have the clue you're missing. Only in your BS illusional and delusional OPTIMISTIC dreams, Goober. :p

WAKE UP! GROW UP! GET REAL!

[Mini-Me]

Only in your BS illusional and delusional OPTIMISTIC dreams, Goober. :p

WAKE UP! GROW UP! GET REAL!

Please elaborate on your extensive plan to liberate people from the oppressive government...you know, a plan that doesn't include "hiding from the government and keeping a low profile so they don't notice you're not paying taxes or feeding the system," because being forced to live in the shadows is not real liberty. Until you can come up with something better, voting third party and for pro-liberty candidates to dilute the power of pro-establishment votes is all we have for the time being.

[jonhowe]

Only in your BS illusional and delusional OPTIMISTIC dreams, Goober. :p

WAKE UP! GROW UP! GET REAL!


So you don't live in reality?

Or, do you work to change your situation? Thats all I was saying. How is that only in my gooberish dreams? Do you deny it?

[Truth Warrior]

So you don't live in reality?

Or, do you work to change your situation? Thats all I was saying. How is that only in my gooberish dreams? Do you deny it? Make up and "spin" whatever BS you want to. You're just a waste of time and energy. :p

[jonhowe]

Make up and "spin" whatever BS you want to. You're just a waste of time and energy. :p

Truth Warrior, you're obviously a bright guy. I mean, you can hit cut & paste with unrivaled speed and accuracy, so there must be SOMETHING going on up there...
But you haven't explained to me what the hell you're talking about!

So let me ask you straight out...

WHAT THE F--- ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?



And also, why won't you answer my question? It's not hard. You know why I think you didn't, so now spin it YOUR way. Come on, lets hear it.

[heavenlyboy34]

Voting = Democracy = Bad = Evil = Hitler = German = Sauerkraut = Food
Therefore, Food = Evil.

Holy cow, I never had any idea food was so evil, nor did I know that voting was edible!

Are you on Bush's logic committee? ;):p

[Mini-Me]

Are you on Bush's logic committee? ;):p

I applied, but they rejected me, saying my rigorous logical proofs took too long, and they'd rather skip directly to equating "Torture" with "Good idea" without any intermediate steps. ;)

[heavenlyboy34]

i applied, but they rejected me, saying my rigorous logical proofs took too long, and they'd rather skip directly to equating "torture" with "good idea" without any intermediate steps. ;)

lmfao!! :d

[polomertz]

Ron's straight talk on Democracy from 2000.

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2000/tst121200.htm


A Republic, Not a Democracy

Throughout the presidential election controversy, we have been bombarded with references to our sacred "democracy." Television and radio shows have been inundated with politicians worried about the "will of the people" being thwarted by the courts. Solemn warnings have been issued concerning the legitimacy of the presidency and the effects on our "democratic system" if the eventual winner did not receive the most popular votes. "I'm really in love with our democracy," one presidential candidate gushed to a reporter. Apparently, the United States at some point become a stealth democracy at the behest of news directors and politicians.

The problem, of course, is that our country is not a democracy. Our nation was founded as a constitutionally limited republic, as any grammar school child knew just a few decades ago (remember the Pledge of Allegiance: "and to the Republic for which it stands"...?). The Founding Fathers were concerned with liberty, not democracy. In fact, the word democracy does not appear in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. On the contrary, Article IV, section 4 of the Constitution is quite clear: "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a Republican Form of Government (emphasis added). The emphasis on democracy in our modern political discourse has no historical or constitutional basis.

In fact, the Constitution is replete with undemocratic mechanisms. The electoral college is an obvious example. Small states are represented in national elections with greater electoral power than their populations would warrant in a purely democratic system. Similarly, sparsely populated Wyoming has the same number of senators as heavily populated New York. The result is not democratic, but the Founders knew that smaller states had to be protected against overreaching federal power. The Bill of Rights provides individuals with similar protections against the majority. The First Amendment, for example, is utterly undemocratic. It was designed to protect unpopular speech against democratic fervor. Would the same politicians so enamored with democracy be willing to give up freedom of speech if the majority chose to do so?

Our Founders instituted a republican system to protect individual rights and property rights from tyranny, regardless of whether the tyrant was a king, a monarchy, a congress, or an unelected mob. They believed that a representative government, restrained by the Bill of Rights and divided into three power sharing branches, would balance the competing interests of the population. They also knew that unbridled democracy would lead to the same kind of tyranny suffered by the colonies under King George. In other words, the Founders had no illusions about democracy. Democracy represented unlimited rule by an omnipotent majority, while a constitutionally limited republic was seen as the best system to preserve liberty. Inalienable individual liberties enshrined in the Bill of Rights would be threatened by the "excesses of democracy."

Last week I introduced a resolution in Congress which reaffirms our nation's republican form of government. H.Con Res 443 serves as a response to recent calls for the abolition of the electoral college. The collectivist liberals want popular national elections (rather than the electoral college system) because they know their constituencies are concentrated in certain heavily populated states. They want to nullify the voting power of the smaller, pro-liberty states. Supporters of my resolution in Congress can send a strong message that every state still matters, and that liberty is more important than shifting majority sentiment.

[mport1]

A must watch video on voting if you haven't seen it yet - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igbBItLemsM

[heavenlyboy34]

A must watch video on voting if you haven't seen it yet - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igbBItLemsM

luv it! A very passionate and articulate guy. :)