Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Spider-Man]

I got the idea for this poll from the LP.org website, which is running a basically identical poll on their front page today.

The basic question is, would you describe yourself as pro-life or pro-choice? Feel free to add any thoughts on the subject.

[nodope0695]

Pro Constitution and state's rights.

[Spider-Man]

Pro Constitution and state's rights.

Okay, but, at the state level, would you describe yourself as pro-life or pro-choice?

Or do you only concern yourself with national politics?

[Truth Warrior]

PREVENT unwanted pregnancies!

[nodope0695]

Okay, but, at the state level, would you describe yourself as pro-life or pro-choice?

Or do you only concern yourself with national politics?

We always have a choice, whether something is legal or not....

But, I would consider myself prolife. However, I think we ought to focus on the real issue, which is unwanted pregnancy, sex education (in school and by parents), birthcontrol (which I support), and effective parenting.

[DamianTV]

I am absolutely Pro Choice.

Im sure we can all get into some extreme circumstances about why an abortion might be needed, but we shouldnt need to go to extremes. I believe that in the Spirit of the Constitution we are supposed to respect each others choice. And this is no different. I should not be able to tell anyone they cant do something with their body as long as they are not trying to tell me what I can and cant do with mine.

To me, the Spirit of the Constitution is more important than this single highly contraversial issue.

Now, there is something that Obama said that I absolutely agree with. In essence about preventing the unwanted pregnancy to begin with instead of dealing with the aftermath and politics of abortion. Its just easier to think that rubbers should be given out at schools over kids dropping out cuz their pregnant.

Ounce of prevention is equal to a pound of cure. I'll take the ounce of prevention. Wear a Jimmy Hat!

Oh, and it should be at the STATE level, not Federal.

[Kludge]

On-the-fence pro-choice, abstained.

[Conza88]

There is a third choice. The best of both choices. Walter Block's got audio on it.
But I'd tend to go with Rothbards.... if you subscribe full property rights to the baby.. if you say it if life and has full human rights... how can it possibly have a right to someone elses property? :confused:

;)

[FindLiberty]

PREVENT unwanted pregnancies!

YES! I'm pro-choice but I'M NOT PRO-DEATH.

Must keep the state out of our bodies, our children's minds, our homes and businesses, and our wallets.

[DamianTV]

Slightly off topic, hypothetical situation. I, knowing what I know now, was going to be born with some form of severely dipilitating disease, like both blind and deaf, and add a high probability of mental retardation, I personally would ask to be aborted than to have to live like that. Thats just me. Or, if my birth would kill my mother, abort me. I could come up with a LOT of reasons why I would rather be aborted than have been born.

(Not trying to get into a paradox, or any of that, Im just trying to look at it from the 'about to be aborted / killed' unborn babies point of view)

I'll go back to my earlier statement, I think the spirit is about everyone having a choice and a right to their bodies and I cant tell you so you dont tell me what we can and cant do by ourselves.

Another point is just because it is made illegal will NOT stop abortions. They will just go back to being life threatening wire clothes hanger procedures IF abortion is made illegal.

So, whats best for everyone from the point of view of the law? Make abortion illegal and put the mothers of the unwanted pregnancies in serious life threatening risk of self abortion where illegally abort their pregnancies in a back alley, or keep them legal even if you dont agree with them on a moral perspective to allow those mothers access to the much safer doctor performed abortions?

[yongrel]

http://theworstpageintheuniverse.com/images/regressive_bs.jpg

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

I don't normally quote bumper stickers, but this was a good one,

"If it's not a baby, then you're not pregnant."

[TurtleBurger]

I'm pro-choice before you spread your legs, pro-life after.

[ShowMeLiberty]

Personally pro-life, politically pro-choice.

[cheapseats]

Personally pro-life, politically pro-choice.

Politically speaking...setting aside the beliefs and convictions and "certitudes" and opinions of individuals, accommodation of all of which is impossible on its face...a true Libertarian could only hold that this is not a matter in which the government should be meddling at all, state or federal.

Society may wish to provide ready options for the person for whom parenthood is not an option and abortion is a conflict, but prescribe her fate?

Hell, manufacture and sell the little tykes...we'll be needing more canon fodder. But otherwise, to get government and public opinion up inside a person's body? Outrageous. Literally, Government knows no boundaries. But observe the Libertarian-which-is-to-say-human tendency to cherry pick on the regulation thing.

[Spider-Man]

I am absolutely Pro Choice.

Im sure we can all get into some extreme circumstances about why an abortion might be needed, but we shouldnt need to go to extremes. I believe that in the Spirit of the Constitution we are supposed to respect each others choice. And this is no different. I should not be able to tell anyone they cant do something with their body as long as they are not trying to tell me what I can and cant do with mine.

The problem is, with abortion you are dealing with two bodies and directly taking an action that is intended to terminate the life of another human being. To me, that's murder any way you look at it.

[Spider-Man]

Politically speaking...setting aside the beliefs and convictions and "certitudes" and opinions of individuals, accommodation of all of which is impossible on its face...a true Libertarian could only hold that this is not a matter in which the government should be meddling at all, state or federal.

Society may wish to provide ready options for the person for whom parenthood is not an option and abortion is a conflict, but prescribe her fate?

Hell, manufacture and sell the little tykes...we'll be needing more canon fodder. But otherwise, to get government and public opinion up inside a person's body? Outrageous. Literally, Government knows no boundaries. But observe the Libertarian-which-is-to-say-human tendency to cherry pick on the regulation thing.

In that case, consider me not a "true libertarian." I believe it is the government's rightful purpose to protect against invasions of life, and that includes abortion.

[Spider-Man]

Slightly off topic, hypothetical situation. I, knowing what I know now, was going to be born with some form of severely dipilitating disease, like both blind and deaf, and add a high probability of mental retardation, I personally would ask to be aborted than to have to live like that. Thats just me. Or, if my birth would kill my mother, abort me. I could come up with a LOT of reasons why I would rather be aborted than have been born.

(Not trying to get into a paradox, or any of that, Im just trying to look at it from the 'about to be aborted / killed' unborn babies point of view)

I'll go back to my earlier statement, I think the spirit is about everyone having a choice and a right to their bodies and I cant tell you so you dont tell me what we can and cant do by ourselves.

Another point is just because it is made illegal will NOT stop abortions. They will just go back to being life threatening wire clothes hanger procedures IF abortion is made illegal.

So, whats best for everyone from the point of view of the law? Make abortion illegal and put the mothers of the unwanted pregnancies in serious life threatening risk of self abortion where illegally abort their pregnancies in a back alley, or keep them legal even if you dont agree with them on a moral perspective to allow those mothers access to the much safer doctor performed abortions?

If anything is illegal, it won't stop. The fact that murdering someone is illegal doesn't mean that we stop murders from happening. So that proves nothing, unless you are one of those crazy anarchos.

[dannno]

I am against making medical abortions illegal, I am for making them obsolete.

They are expensive and unnecessary.

There are plenty of natural alternative abortive remedies that can be used in the early stages, very cheap. A lot of women wait to get their abortions because they are in denial, often due to financial circumstances. They can't afford an abortion. Imagine if abortions only cost $5, but there was no knife necessary? Then abortions would only need to be performed in those emergency situations where the woman's life is in danger or whatever..

[Truth Warrior]

The Non-Aggression Principle

To paraphrase, the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP) is usually stated as "do not initiate force or fraud", or "if it harms none, do what you will", or "treat others as you'd like to be treated", or "live and let live". In more detail, “Do not initiate force or fraud against anyone else’s person or property. In other words, except for self-defense, don’t harm others, don’t harm or steal their property, don’t break your word, don’t try to coerce anyone by threatening to do any of these things, and don’t delegate or encourage anyone to do any of these things.”

Liberty is the state of freedom achieved when everyone abides by NAP. It's a fundamental right of all individual persons, not something granted by a government or constitution. Liberty is inherently ours by birthright, regardless of whether one believes it comes from God, Nature, the Universe, or the simple fact that we're sentient beings with free will. Logic and necessity demand that we respect each other's rights, or else we revert to the law of the jungle. That is why NAP is the civilized version of:


Natural Law



http://common-law.net/nap.html

[Nirvikalpa]

I'm pro-choice before you spread your legs, pro-life after.

ding ding ding ding ding!

[nate4ron]

Personally, I am pro-life because of philosophical reasons; however, based on our Constitution, it is up for each sovereign state to decide on the issue.

I don't think making aborting illegal is going to solve the problem. I think the best way to tackle abortion is through education, and for family and friends to discuss the consequences of it.

No government can legislate good morals or compassion.

[ItsTime]

Being an upstanding agnostic of my community I am pro-life. I use to pro-choice then I smartened up. I still think its a states right. If you dont like the way that state decides then move.

[Fox McCloud]

how can we protect liberty if we don't protect life?

pro-life on all levels of government, though I'd definitely leave it up to the States.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Allan Keyes, with all his warts, provided this argument that the unborn already should enjoy all the rights, privileges, and immunities protected by the Constitution. Very compelling.

[Kade]

If your "pro-life" (which ironically I doubt) than don't choose to have an abortion.

Just because you philosophically believe blastocysts deserve to own property on another person, doesn't mean you ought to be forcing that shit on other people, especially when you are in the minority.

Cheers.

[cheapseats]

In that case, consider me not a "true libertarian." I believe it is the government's rightful purpose to protect against invasions of life, and that includes abortion.

No, you're not...not that that's a crime. But inasmuch as you are NOT a purist, perhaps you can re-visit some of the other positions that are stridently held. They may not all have been examined through to their logical conclusions.

In the case of abortion, you would COMPLETELY infringe upon the liberty of an autonomous human being in favor of protecting a "life" that cannot sustain itself.

It follows that some combination of family members are obliged to curtail their aspirations and activities in order to stay home with their senile, demented, Alzheimer relatives...I mean, those who can't afford private facilities. No government intervention, yes?

What do we care if it derails the quality and security of the lives of the living, so long as the Disadvantaged and Helpless are afforded maximum protection?

Rugged Individualist Libertarians are all about Survival Of The Fittest, no? I urge a Society to recognize that that which is afforded heroic protection is liable to survive over heartier, healthier specimens.

[cheapseats]

The problem is, with abortion you are dealing with two bodies and directly taking an action that is intended to terminate the life of another human being. To me, that's murder any way you look at it.

And yet, you are not up in arms over the countless innocents who have been killed in Iraq alone.

Why do not "Pro-Life" people enlist...the Armed Services are issuing ALL KINDS of waivers, like the Romans...and act as human shields for pregnant women in Iraq and Afghanistan? It couldn't NOT have a mitigating affect on bloodshed.

Or are we also cherry picking about which Life is sacrosanct?

Pro Life, Pro Liberty...is that not the party line? Where is the outrage over the MILLIONS of lives that languish behind bars for the grand crime of smoking pot?

[Kade]

And yet, you are not up in arms over the countless innocents who have been killed in Iraq alone.

Why do not "Pro-Life" people enlist...the Armed Services are issuing ALL KINDS of waivers, like the Romans...and act as human shields for pregnant women in Iraq and Afghanistan? It couldn't NOT have a mitigating affect on bloodshed.

Or are we also cherry picking about which Life is sacrosanct?

Keep going. I love this line of reasoning.. there are really so many good ones.

I love it. Epic --post more request.

[cheapseats]

If your "pro-life" (which ironically I doubt) than don't choose to have an abortion.

Just because you philosophically believe blastocysts deserve to own property on another person, doesn't mean you ought to be forcing that shit on other people, especially when you are in the minority.

Cheers.

This is what is so remarkable.

People COMPLETELY unrelated to the particulars of particular lives get themselves all hot and bothered about "late term" abortions. How many people line up for THOSE? We are forever trying to legislate to the exceptions and the extremes.

Do people imagine that people have abortions for fun? If abortion becomes a matter between you and your doctor and/or you and your mate and/or you and your God/conscience, do people imagine that everyone of childbearing age is going to run out and start having abortions willy nilly? Yay! At last! Abortions all around!

What do Pro Life Fanatics do when it's not an election year...cry themselves to sleep over "all those" non-babies? Or do they go on about their business, the same way they do as the Iraq and Afghanistan body counts climb?

How many died in Iraq during the campaign, does anyone even keep track? Did any U.S. servicemen or innocent non-combatants die while John McCain and Barack Obama dressed in white tie, to yuk it up about bailouts and voter fraud?

Abortion is a CONTRIVED issue that unfailingly serves its purpose.

I can never decide whether the most powerful people on earth are more brilliant or more basic. Divide and conquer is pretty basic.

[Kade]

This is what is so remarkable.

People COMPLETELY unrelated to the particulars of particular lives get themselves all hot and bothered about "late term" abortions. How many people line up for THOSE? We are forever trying to legislate to the exceptions and the extremes.

Do people imagine that people have abortions for fun? If abortion becomes a matter between you and your doctor and/or you and your mate and/or you and your God/conscience, do people imagine that everyone of childbearing age is going to run out and start having abortions willy nilly? Yay! At last! Abortions all around!

What do Pro Life Fanatics do when it's not an election year...cry themselves to sleep over "all those" non-babies? Or do they go on about their business, the same way they do as the Iraq and Afghanistan body counts climb?

How many died in Iraq during the campaign, does anyone even keep track? Did any U.S. servicemen or innocent non-combatants die while John McCain and Barack Obama dressed in white tie, to yuk it up about bailouts and voter fraud?

Abortion is a CONTRIVED issue that unfailingly serves its purpose.

I can never decide whether the most powerful people on earth are more brilliant or more basic. Divide and conquer is pretty basic.

Exactly. I didn't think it were possible on these forums, but you have out-Kaded me. I couldn't have said these thoughts better than you have...

Where is the mourning for the billions of "naturally" aborted fetuses.... the miscarriages... which total 67% of all conceptions...?

The mounting and near endless insanity involved in a fanatical pro-lifers mind is staggering... I see it firsthand, even the brightest among them fall apart intellectually at these crossroads.

[Truth Warrior]

The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
48,589,993
Total Abortions since 1973

[cheapseats]

The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
48,589,993
Total Abortions since 1973

Body count from all wars + all preventable accidents + all preventable disease + all heartless disregard of starving regions + trumped up War On Drugs activity + wives killed by husbands + children killed by parents + suicides?

[Kade]

The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
48,589,993
Total Abortions since 1973



The Consequences of GOD (or nature)

106,456,367,669*

Total Deaths since 50,000 B.C.



*Number not exact, based on populations through dawn of Modern ****-Sapien (****-Sapiens Sapiens)


67% of all pregnancies End in a miscarriage.

Do the math chief.

[Truth Warrior]

Body count from all wars + all preventable accidents + all preventable disease + all heartless disregard of starving regions + trumped up War On Drugs activity + wives killed by husbands + children killed by parents + suicides? ???

[cheapseats]

[QUOTE]Exactly. I didn't think it were possible on these forums, but you have out-Kaded me. I couldn't have said these thoughts better than you have...


I take it that is high praise? I thank you.



Where is the mourning for the billions of "naturally" aborted fetuses.... the miscarriages... which total 67% of all conceptions...?

The mounting and near endless insanity involved in a fanatical pro-lifers mind is staggering... I see it firsthand, even the brightest among them fall apart intellectually at these crossroads.

I can respect their conviction, even when they're backed into a corner. But these two things I will NOT concede:

1.) They've no right to enjoin their Beliefs upon others.
2.) Their squeaky-wheel intensity on abortion is not matched by wholesale concern for humanity.
3.) Their bravado against individual pregnant women is not matched by proactive obstruction of government policies that are unmistakably resulting in death to Innocents.

There seems not to be the slightest awareness of how close the anti-abortion argument is to an anti-gun argument...anticipatory protection.

[dannno]

The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
48,589,993
Total Abortions since 1973

Kade made and interesting point about miscarriages.. I'm curious how many miscarriages there have been compared to the amount of abortions during that time.

[Truth Warrior]

Kade made and interesting point about miscarriages.. I'm curious how many miscarriages there have been compared to the amount of abortions during that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage)

[RockEnds]

My opinion is limited to pregnancies involving my own DNA.

[cheapseats]

???

There are deaths galore of living, breathing people. Death is Market Sector with us. Many many many many deaths are routinely the result of aggression, crime, malfeasance, cost cutting, recklessness, neglect, endangerment...ILL INTENT, not predicament.

Anti-Abortion Enthusiasts offer to carry the bench, when a piano wants moving.

[Truth Warrior]

There are deaths galore of living, breathing people. Death is Market Sector with us. Many many many many deaths are routinely the result of aggression, crime, malfeasance, cost cutting, recklessness, neglect, endangerment...ILL INTENT, not predicament.

Anti-Abortion Enthusiasts offer to carry the bench, when a piano wants moving.


PREVENT unwanted pregnancies!

[Gaius1981]

I am pro-not-forcing-women-to-carry-out-unwanted-pregnancies.

Honestly, the thought of forcing someone to grow a creature inside themselves is beyond immoral to me, and it also has negative secondary consequences, such as in the cases where the mother simply cannot afford raising, or feeding, a baby.

If you ban a woman's liberty over her own body, you'll also contribute to seeing infants being abandoned in the woods, and women killing themselves through internal bleeding caused when they try to abort the embryo themselves.

[cheapseats]

PREVENT unwanted pregnancies!

As much as possible, absolutely.

Better education and BETTER ROLE MODELS, for starters.

PREVENT CAR CRASHES!

PREVENT FOREST FIRES!

PREVENT SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASES!

PREVENT ENVIRONMENTALLY INDUCED CANCERS!

I observe that none of these noble goals has a zero-tolerance rate. People dying here, there and everywhere...how do embryos that are not independently viable rank above The Living for consideration?

[Highland]

did you guys see the ad to "Help Save the Unborn" at the bottom of this post? Wild......I think it is definitely a message.

[Truth Warrior]

As much as possible, absolutely.

Better education and BETTER ROLE MODELS, for starters.

PREVENT CAR CRASHES!

PREVENT FOREST FIRES!

PREVENT SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASES!

PREVENT ENVIRONMENTALLY INDUCED CANCERS!

I observe that none of these noble goals has a zero-tolerance rate. People dying here, there and everywhere...how do embryos that are not independently viable rank above The Living for consideration? Who said that they do? I just don't think that they rank below either.

[cheapseats]

did you guys see the ad to "Help Save the Unborn" at the bottom of this post? Wild......I think it is definitely a message.

Straight from Madison Avenue. Those ads are content driven placements.

[Nirvikalpa]

About miscarriages...

There are around 4.4 million pregnancies in the US, around 1 - 1.3 million of those end up miscarried.

That's because miscarriage is nature's way (when karyotypes are performed on miscarriages fetus', over half have had chromosomal abnormalties). Most miscarriages result from OY zygotes, which are not viable to live at all. These are 'boys' concieved without the X chromosome, which contains 10% of the necessary genes for survival (while the Y only contains 4%). There are other sex-chromosomal disorders that also can influence miscarriages, such as conceiving a Turners syndrome girl (OX - 10% of miscarriages) or a Klinefelter's syndrome boy (XXY).

I mean, I don't know how you can really relate the two.

[cheapseats]

Who said that they do? I just don't think that they rank below either.

Resources are scarce...this is bedrock.

If Society does not rank that which is viable over that which is not viable, that which is real over that which is potential...I draw attention back to the OTHER bedrock of Survival Of The Fittest...that Society is not apt to be among the Survivors.

[Truth Warrior]

Resources are scarce...this is bedrock.

If Society does not rank that which is viable over that which is not viable, that which is real over that which is potential...I draw attention back to the OTHER bedrock of Survival Of The Fittest...that Society is not apt to be among the Survivors. "Society", being a mere abstraction, ranks NOTHING.<IMHO>

[cheapseats]

I am pro-not-forcing-women-to-carry-out-unwanted-pregnancies.

Honestly, the thought of forcing someone to grow a creature inside themselves is beyond immoral to me, and it also has negative secondary consequences, such as in the cases where the mother simply cannot afford raising, or feeding, a baby.


It is an engraved invitation to abuse.

[Spider-Man]

And yet, you are not up in arms over the countless innocents who have been killed in Iraq alone.

Why do not "Pro-Life" people enlist...the Armed Services are issuing ALL KINDS of waivers, like the Romans...and act as human shields for pregnant women in Iraq and Afghanistan? It couldn't NOT have a mitigating affect on bloodshed.

Or are we also cherry picking about which Life is sacrosanct?

Pro Life, Pro Liberty...is that not the party line? Where is the outrage over the MILLIONS of lives that languish behind bars for the grand crime of smoking pot?

I'm not sure I understand your argument. I am pro-life (against abortion), anti-war, and for the legalization of drugs. So, I'm not sure how that's an inconsistent view.

[cheapseats]

"Society", being a mere abstraction, ranks NOTHING.<IMHO>

The People who constitute the Society, by their choices as to how they direct their resources or allow them to be directed, most certainly DO rank people, places and things.

We rank professional athletes above professors, for example. We rank Disneyland above Independence Hall.

[heavenlyboy34]

Can we do retroactive abortions on absurd people? I could think of a few people I'd like to abort... lol ;) ~giggle~

[Spider-Man]

Where is the mourning for the billions of "naturally" aborted fetuses.... the miscarriages... which total 67% of all conceptions...?.

The difference is that miscarriages are natural deaths which occur by no intentional act or omission of the mother. An act or omission that is intended to terminate the life of another human is murder, plain and simple. An unintentional miscarriage is not.

[Truth Warrior]

The People who constitute the Society, by their choices as to how they direct their resources or allow them to be directed, most certainly DO rank people, places and things.

We rank professional athletes above professors, for example. We rank Disneyland above Independence Hall. What we are you talking about? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? :)

[cheapseats]

I'm not sure I understand your argument. I am pro-life (against abortion), anti-war, and for the legalization of drugs. So, I'm not sure how that's an inconsistent view.

Do you agitate on the other fronts? Do you march on Washington to end the war, perhaps incurring the wrath of Washington DC's Finest? Do you block the entrances of prisons, perhaps incurring the wrath of Guards?

Or do you only agitate against the tiny target of individual, unarmed women within the confines of THEIR, not your, bodies?

[cheapseats]

What we are you talking about? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? :)

Disingenuous. You just finished claiming that Society is an abstraction that ranks nothing.

[Paulfan05]

Im pro choice but I hate late term abortions

[Truth Warrior]

Disingenuous. You just finished claiming that Society is an abstraction that ranks nothing. And I STILL do. NOTHING has changed.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstraction (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstraction)

Reading for comprehension, often works wonders.<IMHO>

[cheapseats]

NOTHING has changed.


That's right.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

No one changes their mind on this one.

That's why the Powers That Be-Some-Of-Whom-Belong-In-Jail always trot it out in election years to whip the electorate into hopeless and acrimonious division.

[Truth Warrior]

That's right.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

No one changes their mind on this one.

That's why the Powers That Be-Some-Of-Whom-Belong-In-Jail always trot it out in election years to whip the electorate into hopeless and acrimonious division.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context)

[cheapseats]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context

The practice of "quoting out of context", sometimes referred to as "contextomy," is a logical fallacy and type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning. Quoting out of context is often a means to set up "straw man" arguments. Straw man arguments are arguments against a position which is not held by an opponent, but which may bear superficial similarity to the views of the opponent.

Nice try.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" is not reliant upon a particular context for meaning. It is a Truism.

[Truth Warrior]

Nice try.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" is not indigenous to a particular context. It is a Truism. Have you been convinced against your will?

This really isn't much of a conversation if you continue to refuse to answer the questions.

[Spider-Man]

Do you agitate on the other fronts? Do you march on Washington to end the war, perhaps incurring the wrath of Washington DC's Finest? Do you block the entrances of prisons, perhaps incurring the wrath of Guards?

Or do you only agitate against the tiny target of individual, unarmed women within the confines of THEIR, not your, bodies?

I don't do any of those things you described to advance my pro-life position either, so this doesn't seem to apply to me.

[cheapseats]

This really isn't much of a conversation if you continue to refuse to answer the questions.

Have questions been put to me? Your eloquent ??? met with reply. If there are others, you indicate plural, perhaps you will be good enough to restate them as a group. I know, I know...you don't do Groups. ;)

[Truth Warrior]

Have questions been put to me? Your eloquent ??? met with reply. If there are others, you indicate plural, perhaps you will be good enough to restate them as a group. I know, I know...you don't do Groups. ;) Nope, you can review the thread posts without my retyping them.

The "?" at the end is a clue.

[cheapseats]

I don't do any of those things you described to advance my pro-life position either, so this doesn't seem to apply to me.

Thinking outside yourself, though, do you not find that a great many who are passionately, proactively Anti-Abortion don't exactly bring the same Sanctity of Life sensibilities to the broad spectrum of living, breathing Humanity?

[Kade]

The difference is that miscarriages are natural deaths which occur by no intentional act or omission of the mother. An act or omission that is intended to terminate the life of another human is murder, plain and simple. An unintentional miscarriage is not.

That wasn't the point.

I was asking about where the "mourning" for them was... they are the same, does it matter how they died?

Right...

[Spider-Man]

Thinking outside yourself, though, do you not find that a great many who are passionately, proactively Anti-Abortion don't exactly bring the same Sanctity of Life sensibilities to the broad spectrum of living, breathing Humanity?

I'm not concerning myself with the broad spectrum of pro-lifers, only with whether or not the pro-life position is correct or not.

[tmosley]

Man, I hope they make abortion illegal. Once they do, I'm going to become a friggin' rape machine, so I can fulfill my genetic duty and propagate to the greatest degree possible. "Go forth and multiply" and all that. Even better, those women who are so desperate to avoid my curse as to attempt to abort via coat hanger can be put in JAIL and forced to bear the child to term! Even if it kills her, she'll have to have the baby! Ho-ho, now we're talkin'.

I must thank all of you here who are anti abortion, for making my dream of forcible impregnation of women a reality. Really, from the bottom of my black heart, I thank you.

/sarcasm, for those of you who couldn't tell.

[Spider-Man]

That wasn't the point.

I was asking about where the "mourning" for them was... they are the same, does it matter how they died?

Right...

Two points come to mind:

1. Women often suffer depression after having a miscarriage, so that invalidates your implied assertion that no one mourns for miscarried children.

2. The rate people mourn for a miscarried fetus is probably roughly equivalent to the rate people mourn for the 100-year-old grandmother in the nursing home when she finally dies. It doesn't mean that she's any less human because no one or few people are particularly affected by her death.

[Kludge]

Are there any pro-life agnostic atheists in existence?

[cheapseats]

Nope, you can review the thread posts without my retyping them.

The "?" at the end is a clue.

This response is so predictable as to call into question your rugged individuality.

As well, having reviewed the thread per your petty instruction, I cannot say I spy an attempt at the conversation that apparently I will be denied with you. Our mutual loss, I expect. Such is life.


???

Answered.



What we are you talking about? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? :)

I see, now. You were not questioning WHAT I was talking about, rather that I included Others beyond me. If memory serves, we-you-and-I were discussing societal expenditures. 'We' is not so wrong an adjective in that context, but fine. We-not-including-rugged-individualists-such-as-yourself DO confer standing upon people, places and things as evidenced by aggregate expenditure thereon.




Have you been convinced against your will?

I have already declared it to be a Truism that a man convinced against his ill is of the same opinion still.





This really isn't much of a conversation if you continue to refuse to answer the questions.

Links and cryptic one-liners also do not much facilitate conversation.

[Spider-Man]

Man, I hope they make abortion illegal. Once they do, I'm going to become a friggin' rape machine, so I can fulfill my genetic duty and propagate to the greatest degree possible. "Go forth and multiply" and all that. Even better, those women who are so desperate to avoid my curse as to attempt to abort via coat hanger can be put in JAIL and forced to bear the child to term! Even if it kills her, she'll have to have the baby! Ho-ho, now we're talkin'.

I must thank all of you here who are anti abortion, for making my dream of forcible impregnation of women a reality. Really, from the bottom of my black heart, I thank you.

/sarcasm, for those of you who couldn't tell.

The fallacious assumption behind your sarcastic rant is that rapists rape in order to reproduce with the victim, but this is rarely the case.

Furthermore, carrying your logic through to its ultimate end, we should allow the killing of any human who is found to have been brought into being under unjust circumstances, however young or old. That is a conclusion I am not prepared to accept.

[Spider-Man]

Are there any pro-life agnostic atheists in existence?

I am a pro-life deist, if that counts for anything.

[cheapseats]

Are there any pro-life agnostic atheists in existence?

An agnostic atheist would be an Agnostic.

And if your Grandmother had balls...is, I believe, the quote out of context...she'd be your Grandfather.

[cheapseats]

I am a pro-life deist, if that counts for anything.

Every single person who gets up in the morning and does it again, day after week after month after year, is Pro-Life. Obviously, or they wouldn't still be here.

There's no trick to being Pro-Life. It is intuitive. It is wholesome.

The question...PARTICULARLY framed against worldwide carnage AND national disgraces...is how much and which Intervention is a society prepared to engage in, and at what cost, in order to "insure" against Loss, Harm, Tragedy and Death?

How much is a society prepared to infringe upon individual female liberties, whilst turning a blind eye to far greater injury perpetrated by Scary Guys?

[cheapseats]

I'm not concerning myself with the broad spectrum of pro-lifers, only with whether or not the pro-life position is correct or not.

It is correct for whomever it is correct. Matters of core philosophy are individual, yes? HOWEVER, if a "pro-life" position is not brought in like measure to the broadest possible spectrum of Life...well, it is something other than Pro-Life.

I will argue that Anti-Abortion flies directly in the face of Free Will.

You will say, "so does murder" and we will be back at Square One, only now arguing whether women who go ahead and get the abortions that they WILL get, quite irrespective of costly legislative meddling, should be prosecuted for murder.

No good can come of inserting the public arena into the womb.

[Spider-Man]

It is correct for whomever it is correct. Matters of core philosophy are individual, yes? HOWEVER, if a "pro-life" position is not brought in like measure to the broadest possible spectrum of Life...well, it is something other than Pro-Life.

I will argue that Anti-Abortion flies directly in the face of Free Will.

You will say, "so does murder" and we will be back at Square One, only now arguing whether women who go ahead and get the abortions that they WILL get, quite irrespective of costly legislative meddling, should be prosecuted for murder.

No good can come of inserting the public arena into the womb.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[cheapseats]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Totally do-able. NOTHING approaching consensus on Abortion will EVER be reached. As well, there are a great many Hot Topics on which the American Public is in substantial disagreement.

The question is whether we can agree to take Abortion off the table so we can focus on re-claiming our country from the clutches of unmitigated Bad Guys...who purposefully button-press with Hot Topics like Abortion in order to whip the electorate into frenzies that obscure the dealings of Bad Guys who, as we see, think NOTHING of ruining a nation so long as their own coffers are "robust."

[Fox McCloud]

Are there any pro-life agnostic atheists in existence?

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

[The_Orlonater]

Strogly pro-choice.
I don't believe in any god damn totalitarian state should tell a women what to do with her fertility.

[Conza88]

Strongly don't give a ---- aye...

lol. Divisive issue, an is constantly promoted to cause division.

[youngbuck]

Pro-LIFE

[kojirodensetsu]

I agree with spiderman. I feel that the right to life is stronger than the right to one's body. One pro-choice argument is that a woman shouldn't have to be forced to have a baby inside her. However nobody is forced to have sex (unless it's rape, which then I could understand someone getting an abortion). If you don't want a baby use a condom.

Though people will never really change their mind about being pro-choice or pro-life because this is philosophical difference not based on facts. So it should be decided by the states.

[Truth Warrior]

Whose DNA does the zygote/embryo/fetus/baby have?

[leipo]

Pro-Abortion.

[Truth Warrior]

How come only and ALL of the Pro Abortion folks weren't aborted?

[leipo]

How come only and ALL of the Pro Abortion folks weren't aborted?

Because you can't create yourself.

[Kade]

How come only and ALL of the Pro Abortion folks weren't aborted?

What a stupid question. Seriously you old fart, your inanity is getting tiring.

[Truth Warrior]

For those so concerned about women's rights, aren't about half of those aborted female?

[Cinderella]

pro birth control

[Truth Warrior]

Pro individual personal responsibility AND accountability for sexual behavior.

[cheapseats]

Pro individual personal responsibility AND accountability for sexual behavior.

It would follow, then, that your support can be relied upon for a drive to criminalize infidelity?

Infidelity causes pregnancies that are unwanted on at least some points of the triangle. Plus, infidelity is highly destabilizing to existing families wherein existing children want protection from emotional/psychological harm as well as from physical abuse.

What would be appropriate punishment, do you think? It will have to be more than fines...respect for Life has no price.

[Truth Warrior]

It would follow, then, that your support can be relied upon for a drive to criminalize infidelity?

Infidelity causes pregnancies that are unwanted on at least some points of the triangle. Plus, infidelity is highly destabilizing to existing families wherein existing children want protection from emotional/psychological harm as well as from physical abuse.

What would be appropriate punishment, do you think? It will have to be more than fines...respect for Life has no price. That does not follow AT ALL from what I ACTUALLY wrote. :p

[cheapseats]

That does not follow AT ALL from what I ACTUALLY wrote. :p

It absolutely does.

[cheapseats]

The notion that every life is a sacred gift from God is part of a larger construct wherein all manner of life…the beginning, the middle and the end thereof…is according to the will of God. Focus, for a moment, on the end. Pro-life reasoning renders ungodly those medical practices which extend a life span contrary to the natural course of conditions God has clearly elected to visit upon the human form. Chemotherapy, appendectomy, bypass surgery, pacemakers, to name but a few. The notion that a fetus, pre-early-life as it were, is equally a child of God implies that preventative interference to guard against such future complications and terminations of life as God may have planned for the human are also ungodly. Polio, chicken pox, rubella, measles, whooping cough and Hepatitis vaccines, for instance.

To suggest that insanity and/or selfishness are the only reasons one might not want a child is both accusatory and judgmental. To stand as accuser and judge is, of course, the casting of stones that the Bible has expressly forbidden.

Just one example of not wanting an accidental pregnancy to go forward? A couple…properly married in the eyes of God, church and Gladys Kravitz AND practicing not-fool-proof contraception…might wish to have no more than two children out of a conviction that, beyond two children, being themselves outnumbered, each child would not…indeed cannot, if people will be honest…receive all the attention and care to which every child of God is entitled. This couple might further believe that God's instruction, "Be fertile, then, and multiply; abound on earth and subdue it," issued to Noah after a flood that had wiped out the entire population, has already been executed and that to continue to literalize the instruction is either irresponsible with regard to the earth, which God also commanded into man's care, or is transparent justification for wanton fornication.

Speaking of wanton fornication, if Full Rights of Citizenry confer upon a being at conception…a conviction rooted in God specifically or highest morality generally…that makes sex a heady proposition, indeed. I will argue, then, that to sustain the capability for creation when God/Universe/Nature/Life has decreed there shall be none is ALSO subject to regulation. I will argue, then, that Viagra and the whole Erection Past Your Prime industry should be outlawed. Getting those fuckin’ ads off TV will have a deflationary impact on the cost of Legal Drugs, it will decrease the probability that Infidelity-Run-Riot…particularly among the Executive Class…will result in fewer unwanted pregnancies, and it will provide a more wholesome television environment for the children we are so keen on protecting.

I will argue that this is the stuff of Religious and Moral Conviction and, as such, does not appropriately feature in U.S. politics. This Board, of anyone, will recall that our founding fathers…God-fearing men, all, who cite Him deferentially in our framing documents…nevertheless saw it fit and wise to declare a separation of church and state.

BESIDES WHICH, the abortion debate flies in the face of Free Will. God wouldn’t have given it to us if He didn’t intend that we would use it. I’m pretty that these two things feature in determination of the A-List at the Pearly Gates: how we use Free Will…read that, what choices do we make…and how do we handle the shit that goes wrong.

Come Unto Me...that’s how God rolls…not Haul Them In Here, Whether They Like It Or Not.

[Truth Warrior]

It absolutely does. :p :rolleyes: Get a clue! Take YOUR lame and bogus ASSUMPTIONS elsewhere.

[cheapseats]

:p :rolleyes: Get a clue! Take YOUR lame and bogus ASSUMPTIONS elsewhere.

In the lame and bogus Libertarian fashion of brooking no thoughts or beliefs that aren't in lockstep with your own?

[Truth Warrior]

In the lame and bogus Libertarian fashion of brooking no thoughts or beliefs that aren't in lockstep with their own?

That's NOT the issue AT ALL. Nor am I a "Libertarian".

Hint: Reponse to the literal words and meanings IS the issue.

Bogus "spin" does NOT qualify. :p :rolleyes: It's just BS!

[M House]

Alright 1st post here. Though definitely been following here and reading about Ron Paul for months, never felt too motivated to voice anything.
A couple people wanted some atheists' opinions so I'll share

This is one of the stupidest things to argue over and never will be resolved. Women need to get real and comprehend that they have basically determined the direction of the human race from conception. Everything involved with getting pregnant is pro choice. Even after conception their bodies decide what's carried to term. Our species doesn't reproduce by rape and if people had a decent grasp of biology they'd realize that raping a woman is more like to damage her reproductive gear than to facilitate it. There's benefits to having it legal and illegal and the only loser to the equation really is the parent.

Pro-Life
-Needlessly stopping life is bad, how complicated do you really need to get
-Supporting our species from the beginning sets a consistent tone that's tough to argue
-Late Term when it's got the ability to breath is a bit disturbing

Pro-Choice
-Do you really want a woman who feels the need to kill her unborn child to reproduce?
-How many billion breathing people exist on this planet does one more unwanted make it better?
-Obviously forcing a woman to carry a child that's damaging her health and can kill her won't have pretty results either way
-Incest since I already covered rape yeah nasty but we are all very related especially if you believe some of those silly religious books
-Preventing some genetic disorders lame but knowing your child has a genetically debilitating issue that can kill them sucks not to mention if it could be then passed on from them. Counter is we probably need to preserve as much genetic variation as possible and if the medical field was a bit more competent we'd have better ideas of dealing with it than killing it.

So government out states decision sounds great to me, people can form a cult for either that way. This women deserve sovereignty over their bodies as a right needs to stop cuz to have this issue to begin with it has already been plenty violated.

[cheapseats]

This women deserve sovereignty over their bodies as a right needs to stop cuz to have this issue to begin with it has already been plenty violated.

Women HAVE sovereignty over their bodies as a Natural Right and, yes, Truth, "to have this issue to begin with it has already been plenty violated."

Amen.

[Truth Warrior]

PREVENT unwanted pregnancies! bump

[cheapseats]

PREVENT unwanted pregnancies!

As much as possible.

Accidents happen. We cannot legislate against accidents.

We hand over the car keys, or we don't.

[Truth Warrior]

As much as possible.

Accidents happen. We cannot legislate against accidents.

We hand over the car keys, or we don't.

How many of the 48+ MILLIONS are just irresponsible AFTER the fact birth control for "accidents" (so called )? :rolleyes:

[cheapseats]

How many of the 48+ MILLIONS are just irresponsible AFTER the fact birth control for "accidents" (so called )? :rolleyes:

We are come full circle again...to Square One, to mix metaphors...supporting the argument that people of different beliefs are unlikely ever to reach consensus on Abortion.

How many of those 48+ million non-events, and the carelessness that may have precipitated them, are your affair?

If you declare that even one of them is, you take upon yourself an obligation to afford the same concern and effort to the millions of children worldwide who suffer in squalor and literally starve to death.

What are your thoughts on Anti-Abortion Enthusiasts acting as human shields for pregnant women in Iraq and Afghanistan? I could actually imagine that ENDING the war...peace is as music to God's ears, yes?

[JenH88]

Pro-life.. I do not have an older sister because of this and it has torn my mother apart to this day..

Yes, women have the right to freedom of choice- that freedom in my eyes however was BEFORE they got pregnant. With abortion, I see it as an infringement of the child's right at that point. Someone can goto jail for murder if they kill a child in the womb- a doctor can be sued if they cause any problems to a child in the womb- but for some reason it's ok for the mother to do it? Makes no sense to me personally. The idea of abortion itself just seems to degrade the worth of human life.

Education and prevention needs to be pushed.. and yes, there are accidents- everyone knows that and takes that risk by having sex period. I got pregnant when I was 17 and manned up to it, even though I was that .03% that get pregnant on birth control pills. I've seen way too many girls use abortion as a birth control method after the fact- how are we ever going to encourage people to be responsible when they can always just 'get rid of the problem'..?

I know this is a very touchy and controversial subject- I am not here to argue, just wanted to state my views..

[Truth Warrior]

We are come full circle again...to Square One, to mix metaphors...supporting the argument that people of different beliefs are unlikely ever to reach consensus on Abortion.

How many of those 48+ million non-events, and the carelessness that may have precipitated them, are your affair?

If you declare that even one of them is, you take upon yourself an obligation to afford the same concern and effort to the millions of children worldwide who suffer in squalor and literally starve to death.

What are your thoughts on Anti-Abortion Enthusiasts acting as human shields for pregnant women in Iraq and Afghanistan? I could actually imagine that ENDING the war...peace is as music to God's ears, yes? Off on a bogus set of irrelevant tangents yet once again. :(

Being opposed the murdering the unborn in the USA, is NOT signing on to solving the world's tragedies.

The same as the rest of the politics CRAP.

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html (http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html)

[Truth Warrior]

Pro-life.. I do not have an older sister because of this and it has torn my mother apart to this day..

Yes, women have the right to freedom of choice- that freedom in my eyes however was BEFORE they got pregnant. With abortion, I see it as an infringement of the child's right at that point. Someone can goto jail for murder if they kill a child in the womb- a doctor can be sued if they cause any problems to a child in the womb- but for some reason it's ok for the mother to do it? Makes no sense to me personally. The idea of abortion itself just seems to degrade the worth of human life.

Education and prevention needs to be pushed.. and yes, there are accidents- everyone knows that and takes that risk by having sex period. I got pregnant when I was 17 and manned up to it, even though I was that .03% that get pregnant on birth control pills. I've seen way too many girls use abortion as a birth control method after the fact- how are we ever going to encourage people to be responsible when they can always just 'get rid of the problem'..?

I know this is a very touchy and controversial subject- I am not here to argue, just wanted to state my views..

Thank you for your intelligent and enlightened views. :)

[cheapseats]

[QUOTE]Pro-life.. I do not have an older sister because of this and it has torn my mother apart to this day..


NOT to minimize your mother's grief or your loss, but pretty much every family and every individual has sorrow and woe in the life story.

Amber Alert seems like a worthy bit of intervention, but shall we have one for everything? Maybe a PB&J warning...not peanut butter and jelly but pit bull and jugular...to advise families if someone with a pit bull or other Menacing Animal moves into the neighborhood? Which Dangers are special enough to warrant Control By Others?



Yes, women have the right to freedom of choice- that freedom in my eyes however was BEFORE they got pregnant. With abortion, I see it as an infringement of the child's right at that point. Someone can goto jail for murder if they kill a child in the womb- a doctor can be sued if they cause any problems to a child in the womb- but for some reason it's ok for the mother to do it? Makes no sense to me personally. The idea of abortion itself just seems to degrade the worth of human life.

Anyone worth their salt will respect your opinions, and any country worth its salt will let you express them.

But out of that, we get the state's right to govern and control a woman's reproductivity? It is as something out of the Dark Ages.

Forcing someone to have a child is a hop, skip and a jump from forcing someone NOT to have a child. Some countries do that. It IS a policy. Seventy-plus percent of the people say we're on the wrong track, and I agree. But what track to we mean to be on?



Education and prevention needs to be pushed..


No question. Yet the ranks of Anti-Choice include a considerable number who are opposed to government expense on world-class education, a point on which I am in complete disagreement. We daily SEE and LIVE the consequences of Ignorant Masses.



and yes, there are accidents- everyone knows that and takes that risk by having sex period. I got pregnant when I was 17 and manned up to it, even though I was that .03% that get pregnant on birth control pills.

Good on you, sincerely. But you cannot mean that whatever decision you made, and the life you lead as a result, should be legislatively and punitively enjoined upon people who do not feel as you did and who are not in the circumstantial shoes that you wore.




I've seen way too many girls use abortion as a birth control method after the fact- how are we ever going to encourage people to be responsible when they can always just 'get rid of the problem'..?

Begging your pardon, but we just witnessed the Brightest and the Richest unload a trillion dollars of accidents.

I am sick and fucking tired...apologies for the language, you've no idea how hard I am trying to quit smoking and swearing...of looking at people's unergarments. Guys with their pants practically around their knees, color-coordinated bra straps. Really, I don't think it's right that I should have to look at that shit. I also think that spitting on the streets and sidewalks is vile, insulting and unsanitary. What all shall we control via punishment?

You/Universal Pro-Life will say that my examples don't equate with HUMAN LIFE, for God's sake. But then I will re-direct to the unmistakable cherry picking as to sanctity of life...which renders the ENTIRE sanctity of life argument false. In a true/false paragdigm...which is what Anti-Abortionists try to squeeze this inordinately personal issue into...if something is only inconsistently true, it is false.




I know this is a very touchy and controversial subject- I am not here to argue, just wanted to state my views..

Ditto, though I acknowledge that I would endeavor to persuade some Pro-Life people not to be Pro-Choice but to become Pro-this-isn't-even-in-the-top-ten-issues-plaguing-America-and-maybe-doesn't-belong-in-politics-at-all-though-I-myself-feel-strongly-against-abortion.

Peace.

[Truth Warrior]

The Consequences of Roe v. Wade

48,589,993

Total Abortions since 1973
bump

[dr. hfn]

the Liberty of the child must be protected.

no civilized society would kill its unborn children. it's a simple as that.

[Truth Warrior]

the Liberty of the child must be protected.

no civilized society would kill its unborn children. it's a simple as that.

+ a bazillion

QFT!

[cheapseats]

Off on a bogus set of irrelevant tangents yet once again. :(


If anything approximating even half of Board Members and Guests generally concur with Truth Warrior's assessment of my work, this would be an excellent time to let me know.

The truth hurts, but it hurts less than wasting time.

Someone still thinking he should be president when half the people expressly disagree is too bizarre even for words. Same anywhere. Who would WANT to hang where they are not wanted or appreciated? Including babies, it bears mention.

But Libertarians and Ron Paul devotees are a minority. You will expand your ranks or you will not gain power.

You know who compromises on nothing? Fanatics, Fundamentalists and the Fringe. Read that, Extremists.

[Truth Warrior]

If anything approximating even half of Board Members and Guests generally concur with Truth Warrior's assessment of my work, this would be an excellent time to let me know.

Someone still thinking he should be president when half the people expressly disagree is too bizarre even for words.

The truth hurts, but it hurts less than wasting time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context)

[cheapseats]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context)

Whatsa matter, your arsenal wearing thin? You have already lobbed this volley.

You are less a Warrior of Truth than a Warrior of the Last Word.

I leave you to it.

[Truth Warrior]

Whatsa matter, your arsenal wearing thin? You have already lobbed this volley.

Well you are obviously a very SLOW learner. :(

You are less a Warrior of Truth than a Warrior of the Last Word.

Like I really give a SHIT about what you think about anything. :p

I leave you to it.

GOOD!


:rolleyes:

[JenH88]

What I don't understand is why after I explicitly stated I was not here to argue points, that I just wanted state my personal views, why were my views ripped apart? (and, yes, I literally mean ripped, as nearly every point was responded to separately) I did not attack or argue anyone else's arguments here, asked for the same respect, and didn't get it.. sad if you ask me.

I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on anyone, and I don't appreciate anyone else doing it in return.

I am personally against abortion, but I do believe it is a states rights issue- and believe we need to worry about proper education over punishment (personally I am a strong advocate of this coming from the PARENTS, it is not the school's responsibility)

[M House]

Yeah definitely a government decision just pick one throw it in the constitution and move on. Right now the arguments gonna be filled with tools and users. How many people really like being one of those.

[krazy kaju]

Pro-life, except in special cases when the woman's life is in danger.

[Truth Warrior]

Pro-life, except in special cases when the woman's life is in danger. That's Pro-life about 98+%. ;)

[v00513]

I am VERY STRONGLY pro-choice, but that's not how I want to word it. More like "pro-dowhateverthefuckyoulikeidontgiveashit." Maybe my outlook, however, would be different if I were a medical doctor, not a dentist. Just a thought.

[Truth Warrior]

I am VERY STRONGLY pro-choice, but that's not how I want to word it. More like "pro-dowhateverthefuckyoulikeidontgiveashit." Maybe my outlook, however, would be different if I were a medical doctor, not a dentist. Just a thought. Are you Pro-choice on taxes? :)

[v00513]

Are you Pro-choice on taxes? :)

Yep.

[Truth Warrior]

Yep. :cool: Me too! :D

[v00513]

:cool: Me too! :D

I am not pro-"choice" on *****s getting married, though. If they want to do that, they can move to the Islamic Republic of France where they can openly frolic around with their own kind, because not I, nor my [future] children want to see, or for that matter, put up with that. There is enough of that shit on (M)TV as it is. There is just no avoiding it. Minorities my ass -- if only the majority were represented that much. Racism! Agism! Sexism! Bigotry! Intolerance!

[Truth Warrior]

I am not pro-"choice" on *****s getting married, though. If they want to do that, they can move to the Islamic Republic of France where they can openly frolic around with their own kind, because not I, nor my [future] children want to see, or for that matter, put up with that. There is enough of that shit on (M)TV as it is. There is just no avoiding it. Minorities my ass -- if only the majority were represented that much. Racism! Agism! Sexism! Bigotry! Intolerance! Hey, what happened to "pro-dowhateverthefuckyoulikeidontgiveashit"? :D

[v00513]

Hey, what happened to "pro-dowhateverthefuckyoulikeidontgiveashit"? :D

Guess I'm a hypocrite. Now where can I sign up for office? Maryland needs a new senator. :)

[Truth Warrior]

Guess I'm a hypocrite. Now where can I sign up for office? Maryland needs a new senator. :) I'm REALLY the wrong person to ask. :D

[v00513]

I'm REALLY the wrong person to ask. :D

I'll best leave that to those that don't hold a US citisenship, speak english or are able to read. Then again, that entire white building is full of those degenerates. Time to smoke them out like the Viet Cong did women and children in 'Nam.

[ClockwiseSpark]

We always have a choice, whether something is legal or not....

But, I would consider myself prolife. However, I think we ought to focus on the real issue, which is unwanted pregnancy, sex education (in school and by parents), birthcontrol (which I support), and effective parenting.

I agree. I am personally pro life but I oppose prohibition of abortion. That will only create an underground abortion industry. Back alleys and coat hangers are not a pretty picture.

[Andrew-Austin]

Its kind of a myth that most Americans have an absolute position on the issue on way or the other, most are uncertain.

To be brief, I'd describe my position as:

On-the-fence pro-choice, refused to answer in the poll.




I agree. I am personally pro life but I oppose prohibition of abortion. That will only create an underground abortion industry. Back alleys and coat hangers are not a pretty picture.

Good point.

[BenIsForRon]

Pro-choice, just because I can't see a rational alternative.

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

I think abortion is a terrible, terrible thing. The gung-ho attitude of, "it's my choice, it's not a big deal" that so many women have sickens me to the core.

But you know what's perhaps even worse? Overpopulation. That, and the kind of horrendous familial situations a lot of aborted children would have had to deal with.

I just don't know what to think.

[escapinggreatly]

Pro-choice, but I wrestle with the fact that I also view Roe v. Wade as the wrongful taking of states' rights. I really have no idea how I would change things if I was spontaneously given the power.
__________________

http://www.meltingpotproject.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/22/libertariansig.jpg
The Melting Pot Project: Proportional Representation. New Parties. Intern Jokes. (http://www.meltingpotproject.com/)

[AggieforPaul]

Pro life, and I only support liberty candidates who are also pro life.

[AggieforPaul]

I also support leaving it up to the states, but only as a matter of pragmatism, not as a matter of principle.

I'd prefer a national ban, but such a ban would have to be upheld by the supreme court. And given the supreme court's awful job in handling Roe v Wade, I dont wish for them to have any more authority on this issue.

[Spider-Man]

I also support leaving it up to the states, but only as a matter of pragmatism, not as a matter of principle.

I'd prefer a national ban, but such a ban would have to be upheld by the supreme court. And given the supreme court's awful job in handling Roe v Wade, I dont wish for them to have any more authority on this issue.

I take it you support Barr, then?

What about his VP, Root, who is pro-choice?

[Truth Warrior]

PREVENT unwanted pregnancies! Gee, I guess that must really some kind of rocket science for folks. :rolleyes:

No pregnancy, no abortion, no problem, no issue.


The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
48,589,993
Total Abortions since 1973

BARBARISM PREVAILS! :( Most of the people get the governments that they deserve.

[cheapseats]

Pro-life.. I do not have an older sister because of this and it has torn my mother apart to this day..

Yes, women have the right to freedom of choice- that freedom in my eyes however was BEFORE they got pregnant. With abortion, I see it as an infringement of the child's right at that point. Someone can goto jail for murder if they kill a child in the womb- a doctor can be sued if they cause any problems to a child in the womb- but for some reason it's ok for the mother to do it? Makes no sense to me personally. The idea of abortion itself just seems to degrade the worth of human life.

Education and prevention needs to be pushed.. and yes, there are accidents- everyone knows that and takes that risk by having sex period. I got pregnant when I was 17 and manned up to it, even though I was that .03% that get pregnant on birth control pills. I've seen way too many girls use abortion as a birth control method after the fact- how are we ever going to encourage people to be responsible when they can always just 'get rid of the problem'..?

I know this is a very touchy and controversial subject- I am not here to argue, just wanted to state my views..


*



[QUOTE]Pro-life.. I do not have an older sister because of this and it has torn my mother apart to this day..


NOT to minimize your mother's grief or your loss, but pretty much every family and every individual has sorrow and woe in the life story.

Amber Alert seems like a worthy bit of intervention, but shall we have one for everything? Maybe a PB&J warning...not peanut butter and jelly but pit bull and jugular...to advise families if someone with a pit bull or other Menacing Animal moves into the neighborhood? Which Dangers are special enough to warrant Control By Others?



Yes, women have the right to freedom of choice- that freedom in my eyes however was BEFORE they got pregnant. With abortion, I see it as an infringement of the child's right at that point. Someone can goto jail for murder if they kill a child in the womb- a doctor can be sued if they cause any problems to a child in the womb- but for some reason it's ok for the mother to do it? Makes no sense to me personally. The idea of abortion itself just seems to degrade the worth of human life.

Anyone worth their salt will respect your opinions, and any country worth its salt will let you express them.

But out of that, we get the state's right to govern and control a woman's reproductivity? It is as something out of the Dark Ages.

Forcing someone to have a child is a hop, skip and a jump from forcing someone NOT to have a child. Some countries do that. It IS a policy. Seventy-plus percent of the people say we're on the wrong track, and I agree. But what track to we mean to be on?



Education and prevention needs to be pushed..


No question. Yet the ranks of Anti-Choice include a considerable number who are opposed to government expense on world-class education, a point on which I am in complete disagreement. We daily SEE and LIVE the consequences of Ignorant Masses.



and yes, there are accidents- everyone knows that and takes that risk by having sex period. I got pregnant when I was 17 and manned up to it, even though I was that .03% that get pregnant on birth control pills.

Good on you, sincerely. But you cannot mean that whatever decision you made, and the life you lead as a result, should be legislatively and punitively enjoined upon people who do not feel as you did and who are not in the circumstantial shoes that you wore.




I've seen way too many girls use abortion as a birth control method after the fact- how are we ever going to encourage people to be responsible when they can always just 'get rid of the problem'..?

Begging your pardon, but we just witnessed the Brightest and the Richest unload a trillion dollars of accidents.

I am sick and fucking tired...apologies for the language, you've no idea how hard I am trying to quit smoking and swearing...of looking at people's unergarments. Guys with their pants practically around their knees, color-coordinated bra straps. Really, I don't think it's right that I should have to look at that shit. I also think that spitting on the streets and sidewalks is vile, insulting and unsanitary. What all shall we control via punishment?

You/Universal Pro-Life will say that my examples don't equate with HUMAN LIFE, for God's sake. But then I will re-direct to the unmistakable cherry picking as to sanctity of life...which renders the ENTIRE sanctity of life argument false. In a true/false paragdigm...which is what Anti-Abortionists try to squeeze this inordinately personal issue into...if something is only inconsistently true, it is false.




I know this is a very touchy and controversial subject- I am not here to argue, just wanted to state my views..

Ditto, though I acknowledge that I would endeavor to persuade some Pro-Life people not to be Pro-Choice but to become Pro-this-isn't-even-in-the-top-ten-issues-plaguing-America-and-maybe-doesn't-belong-in-politics-at-all-though-I-myself-feel-strongly-against-abortion.

Peace.


*


What I don't understand is why after I explicitly stated I was not here to argue points, that I just wanted state my personal views, why were my views ripped apart? (and, yes, I literally mean ripped, as nearly every point was responded to separately) I did not attack or argue anyone else's arguments here, asked for the same respect, and didn't get it.. sad if you ask me.


Board etiquette differs from place to place. If this is a more touchy feely board where announcement of a preference that one's views stand uncontested is generally respected...like a fair-catch signal in football...I apologize. I'm still getting my bearings here and some of the Libertarian inconsistencies are difficult to puzzle out. As well, Madam, my response was carefully crafted to be respectful. You decry as unprovoked criticism that which does not dovetail with your own view. That you infer even GREATER insult from my having broken up the response logically is the thinking of an hysteric.




I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on anyone,

OF COURSE you do. You would force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.



and I don't appreciate anyone else doing it in return.

That is why people should think twice about foisting their quite strident beliefs upon the general population.




I am personally against abortion, but I do believe it is a states rights issue-


As opposed to a Woman's Right. If you went from answerable to your parent(s) to answerable to your child(ren), and if your child(ren) are still in your care, you have NEVER been free. You cannot fathom what you propose by dictating an end-of-freedom sentence to an unwilling party.




and believe we need to worry about proper education over punishment (personally I am a strong advocate of this coming from the PARENTS, it is not the school's responsibility)

Bear in mind that education without good public schools means that OTHER young 'uns besides your own are having their heads filled in consider-the-source ways. Some will learn from parents who are themselves uneducated and on welfare...see also Welfare Cycle. Some will learn from parents who are Islamic Fundamentalists as surely as some will learn from parents who are Christian Evangelicals.

Yeah, yeah, I know...you didn't ask for my opinion and you don't appreciate me spouting off when you've already got your notions fixed. I'll steer clear henceforth, how's that? But your patronizing AND ironic "sad if you ask me," right on the heels of objecting to people opining without being called upon, warranted remark.

[cheapseats]

Gee, I guess that must really some kind of rocket science for folks. :rolleyes:

No pregnancy, no abortion, no problem, no issue.


The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
48,589,993
Total Abortions since 1973

BARBARISM PREVAILS! :( Most of the people get the governments that they deserve.


You left out No Sex.

[cheapseats]

The gung-ho attitude of, "it's my choice, it's not a big deal" that so many women have sickens me to the core.


You no more know the mindset of "so many women" than so many women know the "real" you.

[cheapseats]

That will only create an underground abortion industry. Back alleys and coat hangers are not a pretty picture.

It's not as though societies haven't been through this before.

Re-Invented Wheels R Us.

Prohibition of alcohol, anyone?

[cheapseats]

BARBARISM PREVAILS! :( Most of the people get the governments that they deserve.

You are implying that most governments are inferior, yes?

What say you, then, about most governments being comprised mostly of men?

[Truth Warrior]

You are implying that most governments are inferior, yes?

What say you, then, about most governments being comprised mostly of men?

Our species is "stuck" in barbarism due in large part to the perpetuation of some of our barbaric human institutions.

[Expatriate]

lol. Divisive issue, an is constantly promoted to cause division.

Can't agree with you more. Good ol' divide and conquer.

On a side note, I notice that, contrary to the results of the poll, most of the people posting seem to be pro-abortion. What's up with that? Are pro-abortion people just bigger loudmouths or something?

[AutoDas]

Call me an ol' fashioned liberal but I'm pro-choice.

[Feenix566]

Everyone should read Freakonomics, and then decide if they're pro-choice or pro-life.

[Ozwest]

Pro - Boring shit.

Move on children.

[Ozwest]

Instead of righteous pricks...

Let's hear from a pregnant woman.

Otherwise...
Shut your fucking mouth.

[Ozwest]

And...

That pregnant woman doesn't have to listen to use-less pricks.

[Ozwest]

Sorry...

Didn't mean to offend.

[sailor]

I am anti-hypocrisy.

Either life begins at coneption. Or it begins at birth. There is no middle ground.

Any other definition, like 2 months after coneption, or 4 months after coneption, or 6 months after conception is completley arbitrary and thus bogus

There are only two consistent, coherent views. You are either for aborting right until the birth. Or you are against aborting at any time.

Which in my mind really reveals the cowardice and the hypocrisy of the "pro-choice" stance. Every one of them has some sort of arbitrary line implemented. For example they will approve of aborting 11 week old fetuses, but not of 12 week old fetuses. Well what is the catch? What is so special about your particular line? What is so special about it that it even trumps the lines called conception and birth?




But you know what's perhaps even worse? Overpopulation.
Mate, you are falling for a racist myth.

http://infowars.net/articles/october2008/211008Environmentalism.htm


That, and the kind of horrendous familial situations a lot of aborted children would have had to deal with.

Why don`t we let the baby decide what he prefers? He can stil kill himself later if that is his preference to living in a dysfunctional family or an orphanage. :eek:

[LibertyEagle]

Why don`t we let the baby decide what he prefers? He can stil kill himself later if that is his preference to living in a dysfunctional family or an orphanage. :eek:

+1

Geez people, if you think it's alright for someone to judge that it's ok to kill a fetus because they might have a less than perfect life when they are born, then what are you going to say when the government starts deciding which Americans are worthy of health care by reviewing whether they are living a life that the government deems is desirable? :eek:

[inibo]

I am anti-hypocrisy.

Either life begins at coneption. Or it begins at birth. There is no middle ground.



This article pushed out of the grudgingly pro-choice zone:
When Do Human Beings Begin? "Scientific" Myths and Scientific Facts (http://www.l4l.org/library/mythfact.html)

[AutoDas]

Get it through your self-righteous minds. If you outlaw abortions they aren't going to stop. Stop hiding you heads in the sand and think banning abortion will save those unborn babies.

[sailor]

Get it through your self-righteous minds. If you outlaw abortions they aren't going to stop. Stop hiding you heads in the sand and think banning abortion will save those unborn babies.

Get it through your self-righteous minds. If you outlaw rapes they aren't going to stop. Stop hiding you heads in the sand and think banning rape will save those raped women.

:eek: :eek:

[AutoDas]

Get it through your self-righteous minds. If you outlaw rapes they aren't going to stop. Stop hiding you heads in the sand and think banning rape will save those raped women.

:eek: :eek:

uh did you actually compare abortion with rape? A more applicable comparison would be murder, you know the taking away with "life" but whatev

I respect the right of these women to do what they please with their own bodies.

[sailor]

uh did you actually compare abortion with rape? A more applicable comparison would be murder, you know the taking away with "life" but whatev

Yea, and why don`t I compare Mark Twain with Samuel Clemens while I`m at it?

Maybe because they`re the same dude.



But nice to know you want to legalise all murder. At least you are consistent. A little bit radical for me. But consistent. :eek:

[AutoDas]

Yea, and why don`t I compare Mark Twain with Samuel Clemens while I`m at it?

Maybe because they`re the same dude.



But nice to know you want to legalise all murder. At least you are consistent. A little bit radical for me. But consistent. :eek:

:eek::eek:
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Rape and murder are not the same as abortion because rape and murder are not consensual. If a woman wants to flush out a fetus then let her do what she wants with her own body. If you stick a penis up a woman's vagina then she should have the right to take it out you chauvinist.

[Truth Warrior]

Then there was the hooker that didn't realize that she'd been raped until the check bounced. :p

[cheapseats]

Then there was the hooker that didn't realize that she'd been raped until the check bounced. :p

When she sought redress and it was revealed that the john had written a check against insufficient funds, the hooker was sent to jail for trying to exact payment for sex and the john was thanked for flushing vice into the open...whereupon he went home to his wife.

[nobody's_hero]

I don't know if this has been posted before in this thread; I don't really feel like reading through seventeen pages:

Libertarians for Life (http://l4l.org/)

I found it to be quite interesting, but that's just my opinion.

[Charles Wilson]

How about pro States rights and let the citizens of the individual States decide? I am pro life but I would not try and dictate to someone of another State how they should live their life. We all reap what we sow. I follow my conscience when deciding moral issues. I do not need someone else dictating their values to me. We answer to God for our moral choices, not man.

[v00513]

How about pro States rights and let the citizens of the individual States decide? I am pro life but I would not try and dictate to someone of another State how they should live their life. We all reap what we sow. I follow my conscience when deciding moral issues. I do not need someone else dictating their values to me. We answer to God for our moral choices, not man.

Yeah, let the individuals that have listened to decades of propaganda on top of propaganda and who haven't even the slightest clue what's best for them or for those around them, decide what's right. I think I'd almost rather let Lenin decide -- either way, outcome would probably be the same.

[cheapseats]

How about pro States rights and let the citizens of the individual States decide? I am pro life but I would not try and dictate to someone of another State how they should live their life.

You would not try to dictate to people of another state how they should lives, but you would try to dictate to people in your OWN state how they should live their lives? How about pro Women's rights and let the citizens of the individual states mind their individual affairs?



We all reap what we sow. I follow my conscience when deciding moral issues. I do not need someone else dictating their values to me. We answer to God for our moral choices, not man.

Exactly so.

[literatim]

:eek::eek:
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Rape and murder are not the same as abortion because rape and murder are not consensual. If a woman wants to flush out a fetus then let her do what she wants with her own body. If you stick a penis up a woman's vagina then she should have the right to take it out you chauvinist.

The fetus never consented to be flushed out.

[cheapseats]

The fetus never consented to be flushed out.


What about these kids? Did someone collect permission slips for the field trip of a lifetime?


A suspected US missile strike has killed at least eight students at a religious school in north-western Pakistan, witnesses say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7685593.stm

[cheapseats]

The fetus never consented to be flushed out.


Consent? Is that what the brouhaha over Abortion boils down to, that smears of smidgeons of potential people didn't agree to be obliterated?



How Many Children Dead from Starvation and Disease in Iraq?

One can't know the exact numbers. 500,000 was the widely reported figure even 2 years ago. Dennis Halliday, the just resigned United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator said "we are losing 6,000 to 7,000 children a month, dying every month, as a consequence of the sanctions (New York Times 1/3/99). The Washington Post according to a recent Pat Buchanan column reports a minimum of 250,000. John McLaughlin on NBC news reported up to 700,000, based on the earlier number + current monthly totals. And that was before the last American bombing which included the refinery in the South with provided gasoline and lubricants for local industry which means fewer jobs. One shouldn't forget in this context Washington's bombing of the main antibiotics factory in the famine raged Sudan. We have no numbers on the new numbers of children dying there.

UPDATE --Professor Thomas Nagy of the George Washington University recently published a study of documents released from the Defense Intelligence Agency, describing the intentional destruction of Iraq's water, sanitation, and irrigation with the full knowledge that it would cause catastrophic death and disease among civilians. Only columnist Charley Reese reported on it after it was first published in England's SUNDAY HERALD. In fairness to the American public, the matter has never received attention of the mass media (although Leslie Stahl on 60 MINUTES did ask former Secretary of State Albright if the deaths were worth while to which the Secretary replied, "Yes." In American neo-conservative publications the news was almost totally suppressed. Also it was not the stated American intention originally to then blockade Iraq for 10 years to prevent the import of reconstruction supplies. That policy just evolved over the period.

http://www.againstbombing.org/childunicef.htm

A question, not to you personally but to the COLLECTIVE that is so strangely determined to make the personal affairs of the Few central to every election, even as they decry the government's assault on the privacy of the Many. With all the carnage worldwide, and particularly with how often the Disunited States of America features in worldwide carnage, PLUS abortion, how on God's green earth do you grant yourselves permission to enjoy even one minute of even one day? Plagued by insomnia, presumably, the lot of you...probably haven't had a decent night's sleep this millennium.

[Conza88]

Abortion by Walter Block
(http://mises.org/Controls/Media/MediaPlayer.aspx?Id=2565)

[sailor]

You would not try to dictate to people of another state how they should lives, but you would try to dictate to people in your OWN state how they should live their lives? How about pro Women's rights and let the citizens of the individual states mind their individual affairs?

Haha. Well why do you want to dicate to people in your own state how they should live *their* lives? What if they want to rape someone? Why should we mind their induvidual affairs? It is for the God to judge not us. We shouldn`t enforce our anti-rape morals on them. What about Womens rights to rape and sodomise children with a strap-on?? Lets have it.



What about these kids? Did someone collect permission slips for the field trip of a lifetime?

You are such a muppet. So because human beings are getting murdered in Pakistan it makes it alright to murder humen beings in America?

[AutoDas]

The fetus never consented to be flushed out.

uhhhhhh let me say this slowly
T h e
f e t u s
i s
i n s i d e
t h e
w o m a n ' s
b o d y .

I suppose a midget can crawl up a woman's vagina and decide to stay there because he hasn't consented for the woman to take the person out.

[nobody's_hero]

I suppose a midget can crawl up a woman's vagina and decide to stay there because he hasn't consented for the woman to take the person out.

:confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmJnFZy-PtU

[AutoDas]

:confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmJnFZy-PtU

???

[sailor]

uhhhhhh let me say this slowly
T h e
f e t u s
i s
i n s i d e
t h e
w o m a n ' s
b o d y .

I suppose a midget can crawl up a woman's vagina and decide to stay there because he hasn't consented for the woman to take the person out.

Aha, so that is how babies come to be! "The fetuses" sneak into the womb at night! That is truly nefarious!!


If you don`t want a baby don`t concieve it.

[Truth Warrior]

PREVENT unwanted pregnancies! DUH! bump

[nobody's_hero]

???

(Bizarre hypothetical scenarios)