The Constitutional Convention of 1787 [Archive] - Ron Paul Forums / Liberty Forest

Uriel999

10-22-2008, 07:30 PM

your in luck I just did a lot on this. You want the Virginia Plan, New Jersey Plan, and Hamilton's Plan for starters. I can get you a chapter I used from Republican Revision and Anglo-American Ideology. The chapter is called "The Great National Discussion": The discourse of politics in 1787. I have the pdf for you but don't know how to get it to you. Below is the answer to a test question I just turned in tonight on this. It takes from the article and some notes from class.

CHOOSE ALL:

Using lecture notes, the readings, and the documents define, compare, and contrast the Virginia Plan, the New Jersey Plan, and the Great Compromise. What other compromises occurred at the Philadelphia Convention?

The Philadelphia Convention (1787) was a federal convention called for after the authorization of seven states. It’s purpose was “for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation and not to create a new government.” Many delegates had been instructed to leave the convention immediately if discussion of forming a new federal government was discussed,. This prompted several men including Patrick Henry to leave. The delegates had been appointed by state legislatures and of the seventy-three chosen, fifty-five attended. Only thirty-nine signed the document. Most of those who refused to sign had left the convention and those who remained refused to sign it.
Proposed by Edmund Randolph was the Virginia Plan that simply sets aside the Articles and created a highly nationalistic government giving much power to the federal government and taking power from the states. It had a two house legislature, the lower house chosen by popular vote (no congressional districts) and the upper house elected by the lower house from nominations given by state legislatures. They debated over representation and powers of Congress for the vast majority of their time. They asked:
What is representation
What is its nature
What are its powers
Where the states didn’t have power to legislate Congress could. There would be an executive branch and a president chosen by Congress. The president could not be re-elected. The Executive and Judicial branches formed a Council of Revision with a veto over Congress. The most glaring component gave Congress the power to veto state laws. Parliament had declared they had the ability to do that. This was the ideas of the Declaratory Act resurfacing. Another glaring issue was that this document gave Congress a broad grant of power to define its own power and the powers of the states. That was very Hamiltonian and was counter revolutionary. There was no check on Congressional powers. This left people questioning how you could allow a power to define its own powers. The Virginia Plan debunked the small republic theory. This frustrated many moderate state rightists.
Statements from the Virginia Plan such as section six:
…the National Legislature out to be empowered to enjoy the Legislative Rights vested in Congress…to legislate in all cases to which the separate states are incompetent, or in which the harmony of the United Sates may be interrupted by the exercise of individual Legislation; to negative all laws passed by the several states contravening in the opinion of the National Legislature…to call forth the force of the Union against any member of the Union failing in its duty under the articles thereof.
That statement if made into law would give unprecedented powers to the fledging national government. This would give power for Congress to override state laws it did not approve of and even possibly use force if so decided. It was considered fact to many in this time (as they remembered the Revolutionary War) that standing armies were tools of tyranny and could be used against citizens. This led to an alternate idea known as the New Jersey Plan to be proposed.
Also known as the Patterson Plan the main idea from this was to go back to the initial idea of the convention of just altering the Articles of Confederation. It would give the Articles the powers people thought it lacked and needed. For example, it made a strong judiciary and executive branch. This would have been a relatively power federal government. It gave congress power over interstate commerce and the power to tax. All national laws and treaties would be supreme. The president could call out the militia to enforce the laws of Congress. This plan also called for other fairly understandable federal laws such as section nine in which if a person commit’s a crime in another state but found in another they would still be deemed guilty for their crime. It would also give the federal government a provision to admit new states into the union as section 8 points states. The plan was immediately rejected, however. The vast majority of the people there wanted a very power central government and to take states powers away.
The Great Compromise or Connecticut Plan was suggested by Elsworth and Sherman. It was not a combination of the Virginia and New Jersey Plans. Debate over representation bogged down so badly, many delegates threatened to go home and the convention would fail. Both factions at the convention wanted to overcome this main issue of large states vs. small states. There was the problem of power, population, and wealth of states to overcome. States with a large population really like the Virginia Plan wanted states based on popular votes, however, small states held back because they didn’t have the power of population and they wanted state equality.
The Articles of Confederation provided that with one state one vote. “Why give this up” some asked. Sherman proposed a new plan that combined federal and national governments. It combined the Virginia plan with the Articles of Confederation. The House of Representatives would be based on population. The States rightists did water it down to keep congressional districts within the boundaries of the state. The states determined the shape of the districts. As the Senate it represented states and at one time it was one state one vote, every state would get two delegates. The lower body represented the states with large populations while the lower gave lower populations more power. This was a balancing act.
There was an argument over delegated vs. reserved powers. The constitution delegates certain powers to congress. What is not in the Constitution is reserved for the states and people. Congress could not determine its own powers. Popular sovereignty resided with the states. The Supremacy Clause meant supremacy lies in the Constitution. Madison and Wilson opposed the idea of the senate based on states feeling too undemocratic. Once they added the senate the small states wanted to add powers for Congress while the large states wanted to restrict power. They flip flopped positions. The Virginia Plan called for the national government to have all power and supremacy over the people. The states would still exist but Congress could veto over them. In the Federal style (Articles) the central government represented not people but other governments. All power and supremacy resided in the states. They combined the federal and national ideas with supremacy residing in the Constitution with power being distributed. Some powers would be delegated to the national government and some to the states. Sovereignty resided with the people.
More compromises include the August Compromises which were the three-fifths clause and the Electoral College. The three-fifths clause was a compromise was made because the south was counting slaves as people and the north was counting women and children who couldn’t vote as people. They decided all slaves would count as three-fifths of a person. The Electoral College was a combination of national and federal compromise. Some states did it by congressional districts. Up to this point it wasn’t even based on that. Everybody voted for president but not a representative in another congressional district. They worked on Separation of Powers or Checks and Balances. Elections would be staggered so that no one faction gained power and held it. The president could veto the legislative branch, but in turn could be overridden. Judges would enjoy lifetime appointments unless they committed a crime.
Problems did remain with the Constitution as there was no Bill of Rights which was promised would be added if ratified. The commerce powers such as “the necessary and proper clause” and “general welfare clause” of Section Eight gave all the powers of congress, they could collect taxes for general welfare and this caused a lot of problems. “To make all laws necessarily and proper to carry and execute the forgoing powers” meant Congress could pass anything to carry out their powers. There was no power for Congress to make a national bank but via the necessary power was how it was pushed through, for example.

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this is the raw notes from my Constitutional Legal History to 1877:

Philadelphia Convention (1787):

Authorization?

The federal convention called itself once 7 states authorized it. The only thing that made it legit was the 7 states had authorized it. Its

Purpose?

“For the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation and not create a new government.” Many of these delegates were instructed that if they said to make a new government to leave immediately. Patrick Henry left because of this.

Appointment of Delegates?

State legislatures, 73 chosen, only 55 attend. People realized they were going to change the government to a stronger central government. 39 Eventually signed the document. Most non-signers left the convention and those who remained refused to sign it. This was not nearly unanimous. One state never showed up or ratified the constitution. Va and Pa important at convention. NY delegates left cause they pissed.

System of Voting

One state, one vote.

Proceedings to be kept secret

They did a good job doing it. They kept the windows and doors shut and it was hot in Philly at the time. They couldn’t debate openly.

Who was not there?

Jefferson (in France), John Adams (in England), Sam Adams, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, John Jay, Richard Henry Lee,

Who was there?

The greatest bodies of minds were there, Jefferson declared the convention populated by demigods. This was a Federalist composition. They were not representative of the American people. There was a moderate group of federalists that advocated states rights. The average age of these men were 42. They were well versed in Enlightenment ideology. Most highly experienced and skilled in practical politics. They were not just ideologues were experienced in politics. Most important person there was George Washington. He never spoke a word really, but he lent prestige and credibility to this body. He was unanimously elected president of the convention. They probably would have actually made the constitution more strict but everybody knew Washington would be president. They felt he would not abuse his powers because he had put down his sword and taken up his plow. Madison was probably second most important and was 36 at the time. He was the most prepared and learned guys there. He read hundreds of books on republics. William Paterson the head of the states rights faction. Roger Sherman one of the most recognized skilled statesmen of the day. Oliver Elsworth came up with the great compromise. Gouverner actually wrote the constitution. He was the chair of the committee of style. George Mason was the author of the Va Bill of Rights. He objected to the constitution and refused to sign it because there was no bill of rights. Ben Franklin and John Dickenson was there. They were two old to really contribute. He believed a representative should not be paid. He also felt the clergy should not have political rights. Alexander Hamilton was there but silenced because the rest of New York delegates left. James Wilson was there.

Virginia Plan:

Proposed by Edmund Randolph, this simply sets aside the Artlices and created a highly nationalistic government giving much power to the federal government and taking power from the states. It had a 2 house legislature, the lower house chosen by popular vote (no congressional districts), the upper house elected by the lower house from nominations given by state legislatures. Debate over representation and the powers of congress was argued for ¾ of the time. It composed the vast majority of their time “what is representation,” “what is its nature,” “its powers.” Where the states didn’t have power to legislate Congress could. There would be an executive branch and a president chosen by Congress, but the president could not be re elected. The Exec and Judicial= Council of Revision with a veto over Congress. The most glaring component gave Congress the power to veto state laws. Parliament had declared they had the ability to do that. This was the Declaratory Act more or less. Another glaring thing to this was it gave Congress a broad grant of powers to define its own power and the powers of the states. That was very Hamiltonian. This was counter revolutionary. There was no check on Congressional powers. How could you let a power define its own powers. The VA debunks the small republic theory. The Va Plan off the bat frustrated many moderate states righters. Thus the New Jersey Plan…

New Jersey Plan:

Or the Patterson Plan. This sent things back to square one to just alter the Articles of Confederation. It would give it the powers people thought it lacked and needed. For example, it made a strong judiciary and executive. This would have been a relatively power federal government. It gave congress power over interstate commerce and the power to tax. All national laws and treaties would be supreme. The president could call out the militia to enforce the laws of Congress. The plan was immediately rejected. The vast majority of the people there wanted a very power central government and to take states powers away.

Great Compromise:

Also known as the Connecticut Plan, Elsworth and Sherman both were on this. This was not a combination of the VA and JA plan. Debate over representation bogged down so badly, many delegates threatened to go home and the convention would fail. To overcome this main issue of large states vs. small states over power, population and wealth. States with a large population really like the Va Plan. They wanted states based on popular votes. The small states held back because they didn’t have the power of population so they wanted state equality. The Articles of Confederation provided that with 1 state one vote. Why give this up? Sherman proposed a new plan that combined federal and national governments. It combined the Va plan with the Articles of Confederation. The House of Reps would be based on population. The States rightists did water it down to keep congressional districts within the boundaries of the state. The states determined the shape of the districts. As the Senate it represented states and at one time it was 1 state 1 vote, every state would get two delegates. The lower body represented the states with large populations while the lower gave lower populations more power. This was a balancing act.

Delegated vs. reserved powers. The constitution delegates certain powers to congress. What is not in the Constitution is reserved for the states and people. Congress could not determine its own powers.

Popular sovereignty? Were does sovereignty reside in this time? In the states.

Supremacy Clause: This meant supremacy lies in the Constitution. Madison and Wilson opposed the idea of the senates based on states feeling too undemocratic. Once they added the senate the small states wanted to add powers for Congress while the large states wanted to restrict power. They flip flopped positions.

Va Plan: National Government. The central government would have all power and supremacy over the people. The states still existed but Congress could veto.

The Federal style (Articles) the central government represented not people but other governments. All power and supremacy resided in the states.

They combined the federal and national: supremacy resided the Constitution. Power would be distributed. Some would be delegated to the national government, and some would be reserved for the states. Sovereignty resided with the people.

Those were not the only compromises.

August Compromises: 3/5 Clause and Electoral College

3/5 clause: This compromise was come to because the south was counting slaves as people, and the north was counting women and children who couldn’t vote as people. They made all slaves count as 3/5 of a person.

Electoral College: combination of national and federal compromise. Some states did it by congressional districts. Up to this point it wasn’t even based on that. Everybody voted for president but not a representative in another congressional district.

Separation of Powers/Checks and Balances: Staggered elections, what they wanted was for no one faction to gain power and hold it. The president could veto the legislative branch, but in turn could be overridden. Life time appointment for judges unless they had misbehaved.

Problems with the Constitution: NO BILL OF RIGHTS, commerce powers “the necessary and proper clause” and “general welfare clause” Section 8 gives all the powers of congress, they could collect taxes for general welfare. This caused a lot of problems. “To make all laws necessarily and proper to carry and execute the forgoing powers.” Meaning Congress could pass anything to carry out their powers. There was no power for congress to make a national bank but via the necessary power was how they got it through.

Ratification:

There was a very strong democratic notion, the nation was expanding and would always give representation. They used 1 rep for every 30k people, now they have it capped. The other thing was the amendment process. It took 75% of people to pass an amendment. How many states had to ratify? 9 The anti-federalists also hit upon the unwritten constitution.

State Conventions, and not State Legislatures: Brilliant movement by federalists because those who controlled the state legislatures were anti-federalists (though not officially existing). This idea was already American. Conventions in their counties got together to elect officials for the state. Had nothing to do with the state legislatures.
Ratification favors Federalists: they were younger, more energetic, less attached to local interests, and unified. They all wanted that constitution ratified. The anti-federalists were not unified. They had a number of arguments against it and many were conflicting. Many federalists corresponded regularly to get their arguments together. They had propaganda on their side. They could play anti-federalists against each other because they had conflicting arguments.
Antifederalist Objections: what are they objecting to? They had ideological assumptions. Government should be virtuous or homogeneous. Power corrupts, they believed in small republics…
Ratification
RI didn’t even go, NC had convention and voted it down. Both joined the Union in 1790.
Quick ratification: DE, NJ, GA, CT, PA votes narrow in some places but passed quickly. GA was a huge states rights place, they had Indian warfare problems so they needed the US army to save their asses. They needed federal troops and other state militias. It never came though…
1788 ratification (by June almost a year later): MA, MD, SC, NH. MA was one of the more powerful/large states. They were majority Antifederalist. The Federalists realized they needed to compromise. One of the biggest mantras of MA Antifederalist were voting this down, they were arguing No Bill of Rights. They started hammering it. The Federalists said if they ratified it they would in the first congress add a bill of rights. Some Antifederalists switch sides and it ratifies Mass. Because the 9th state.

VA and NY had held out and had not joined yet, and they were the most powerful states in the union. These states overwhelmingly elected Antifederalists. Mass. Was prepared to go back on its bargain if those two states stayed out of it. NY voted against ratification two to one. Suddenly things went to VA (if Mass. Dropped only 8 states and constitution wouldn’t get ratified). Mass. Said get the convention together they would deratify because VA refused. Until enough compromises were given for the bill of rights, by 10 votes (well over 100 men) VA ratified the constitution. NY saw the writing on the wall and they joined the union and ratified. Both joined as soon as the Bill of Rights was passed.

Federalism: Idea of term changed by Madison
Republic: Idea of definition changed as well. Republics were supposed to be small but Madison changed that Republics were extended and large.
Sovereignty: Sovereignty in colonial assemblies and kin but not parliament. Sovereignty in articles was with states. They changed it to sovereignty for the people with the constitution.
Constitution: The idea of what a constitution was changed to. Broad Construction and Strict Construction. Former read it like Parliament did, latter literally. What does the constitution mean?

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thats a start for some ideas to work with. But how do I get you that pdf?