An Obama Presidency May Not Be Effective For Future Liberty Movements

[Theocrat]

There have been a lot of sentiments from members here that an Obama Presidency will actually work to our advantage in the future because it will help return our country towards more liberty-oriented principles, particularly in the Republican Party. I want to suggest this may not be the case for three reasons.

There is a possibility that our country will become even more accustomed and adapted to the socialist policies and agenda experienced under an Obama administration. Thus, for pragmatic reasons, our electorate could become even more hostile about the principles of liberty which aim at less government regulation, less taxes, more individual responsibility, more economic/civil freedoms, etc. because they've been used to Obama's policies which "have worked for so long." Of course, the media will do their best to assure the masses of this, and currently, our educational system increasingly espouses socialist/communist propaganda to the upcoming generation, seemingly in preparation of this.

The state of our nation may become so unbearable and intrusive under an Obama administration that people will be desperate for change by anyone who will drive us away from the status quo, which will give the Republicans an upper hand to nominate a candidate who is "just a little bit better than Obama," a moderate Republican, if you will. Thus, there is a possibility that we could still be stuck with another Republican after Obama's Presidency who is not principled in the foundations of liberty and Constitutional government that we all know is right and proper for our republic.

It seems to me that most people do not learn from history, and therefore, even if our nation's well-being becomes significantly worse under an Obama administration, it will most likely go unnoticed by the larger population (some of whom will be steadily enamored with the fact that we just have a Black President in the White House for the first time in our country's history). Undoubtedly, there will be individuals and organizations who will try to justify how Obama's socialist policies/agenda can be finely tuned and tweaked to work in "American democracy," since socialism only failed in other countries because they didn't have the right "political capital" we've enjoyed here in America for centuries. The principles of liberty in civics/economics may then be viewed as archaic and naive principles which failed our nation, due to all of the corporatism and political control of special-interests in Washington, D.C., among other things.

I just want to make it clear that I am not suggesting we should all vote for McCain to thwart Obama's chances of winning (I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils.). I just want to caution those who suggest an Obama Presidency will help us in the long run that it may bring about some unintended consequences, and we need to consider those now in the present, if our grassroots efforts to campaign for liberty are to continue into the future.

[durden0]

I always like to point out that FDR was loved by the people and he instituted more socialism that kept us in a depression than anyone in history.

[torchbearer]

Neither candidate is good for liberty.
Vote for someone who cares about the constitution. It is the only moral decision.
Otherwise you are aiding and abetting criminals.

[gjvrieze]

..............

[JenH88]

Honestly an Obama presidency scares the sh*t out of me...at least with McCain people would be on there toes watching him for "more Bush policies".. I won't be voting for either of the two evils out of principle.. but with Obama we have a bigger chance to make major steps toward losing our guns, losing our rights to make decisions regarding our children, and marching full fledge into socialism with the people cheering the whole way... I fear for the future..

[Brassmouth]

honestly an obama presidency scares the sh*t out of me...at least with mccain people would be on there toes watching him for "more bush policies".. I won't be voting for either of the two evils out of principle.. But with obama we have a bigger chance to make major steps toward losing our guns, losing our rights to make decisions regarding our children, and marching full fledge into socialism with the people cheering the whole way... I fear for the future..

qft.

[Ben2008]

Exactly.

Dr. Paul said today in an interview on CNN today (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yjImzwuIU) that it would be best for McCain to win, if for nothing else that it will bring some gridlock. That's a sentiment I expressed yesterday in my thread "I hope McCain wins."

If Obama wins, we're going socialist and there's no turning back for many many years.

[dannno]

The idea is that people believe so much in government that we are going to let them see that it doesn't work, even when their savior tries to implement it.

If you don't let them fail, they won't see the folly of their ideas, and they will continue to fight for government to save them rather than fighting for government to restrain itself.

If you try to convince them that we are already socialist, they won't care because the system was setup by an evil republican. They want it setup by a democrat because democrats aren't evil.

[torchbearer]

If Obama wins, we're going socialist and there's no turning back for many many years.

This will hasten the inevitable.
Do you want a quick painful death, or a slow drawn out painful death?

[mediahasyou]

Obama is a bigger threat to this nation than Osama.

[Kotin]

If obamas president we will all be forced by law to listen to at least an hour a day of his radio show.


God Help Us All.

[dannno]

Obama is a bigger threat to this nation than Osama.

McCain is a bigger threat to the world than yo mama.

[Ben2008]

This will hasten the inevitable.
Do you want a quick painful death, or a slow drawn out painful death?

I don't want a death at all. I am for doing what Dr. Paul wants to do, which is to help turn us around before that happens. It can be done.

You're assuming that if the U.S. completely collapses that it's going to be replaced with a free society. I wouldn't bet on that. I don't see any reason to think that it's not as likely or more likely that it would be replaced by a dictatorship.

[torchbearer]

I don't want a death at all. I am for doing what Dr. Paul wants to do, which is to help turn us around before that happens. It can be done.

You're assuming that if the U.S. completely collapses that it's going to be replaced with a free society. I wouldn't bet on that. I don't see any reason to think that it's not as likely or more likely that it would be replaced by a dictatorship.

Dr. paul didn't say vote for McCain.
That is what you wanted to do, and you heard him answer a lesser than two evil argument.
Dr. paul is not voting for McCain, and he has stated such.

[JenH88]

I understand the "quick fall at the hand of the savior" reasoning to try and turn things around.. but that is assuming that people will recognize the problems with socialism and be against it- I honestly don't see that happening, esp. with Obama at the reigns- with his charisma he could probably get the public fully behind putting people in gas chambers and detention camps with the people endorsing it 'for our safety'.. if McCain were to do something like that, a lot of people would already be weary and on watch....

Any fall or negative things that happen in the next 8 years will be blamed on Bush regardless of who's in control.. Obama will probably just use the excuse they're using for the bailout "it's going to take time"..

Marching fully into socialism and communism to try and get more liberty is insane.. would you let a tumor get as bad as it possibly can to try prove the tumor exists?

I have a daughter, and am expecting my second- I refuse to lay this mess at my children's feet... Obama will not help us..

[freelance]

Honestly an Obama presidency scares the sh*t out of me...at least with McCain people would be on there toes watching him for "more Bush policies".. I won't be voting for either of the two evils out of principle.. but with Obama we have a bigger chance to make major steps toward losing our guns, losing our rights to make decisions regarding our children, and marching full fledge into socialism with the people cheering the whole way... I fear for the future..

Very well said!

[Ben2008]

Honestly an Obama presidency scares the sh*t out of me...at least with McCain people would be on there toes watching him for "more Bush policies".. I won't be voting for either of the two evils out of principle.. but with Obama we have a bigger chance to make major steps toward losing our guns, losing our rights to make decisions regarding our children, and marching full fledge into socialism with the people cheering the whole way... I fear for the future..

What better "principle" to vote on than to prevent as much evil as possible? If you have the opportunity to help prevent a greater evil, then why not take it? I question the "principles" of people who take your stance. I think your "principle" may be irrational.

[JenH88]

What better "principle" to vote on than to prevent as much evil as possible? If you have the opportunity to help prevent a greater evil, then why not take it? I question the "principles" of people who take your stance. I think your "principle" may be irrational.

Huh? Did you not read what I wrote correctly? I will not vote for either of the two evils out of principle..

How is refusing to vote for any evil because I have morals a bad thing? lol..:rolleyes:

[Chieftain1776]

I made a post (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=162401)justifying my Obama vote earlier. Please read this great post at National Review addressing the "New New deal scenario. (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZjY5YWM4MjQxYTM5ZDJmYWFiODgyZDM0OTY2MDk3ZmQ=) To your points.

1) "There is a possibility that our country will become even more accustomed and adapted to the socialist policies and agenda experienced under an Obama administration. Thus, for pragmatic reasons, our electorate could become even more hostile about the principles of liberty which aim at less government regulation, less taxes, more individual responsibility,...the media will do their best to assure the masses of this"

Agree that there is that possibility...however the ONE good thing Bush and his brand of Republicans did was cut taxes. Like Dems can buy off constituences and have them agitate when they're being threatened Republicans have cut taxes and Obama will have to raise them to fund not only his socialist proposals but to dig out of the spending Bush has left him.And I don't think he can raise that type of revenue just by "taxing the rich". He may ante up and raise them but that puts his party in congress in prime position for a backlash in the midterms. Just like what happened to Clinton and the Dem's in '94. As for the media and propaganda...conservatives/libertarians had NO help from them and our rhetoric was successful enough for 8 years of bush and 12 years of a Republican majority in Congress (well in the house). Now we have the internet, Fox News (against a liberal president see my Hannity post and be shocked (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=163392)at how much he sounds like Ron Paul, and a radical (to them) like Ron Paul on TV almost every week.

2)"give the Republicans an upper hand to nominate a candidate who is "just a little bit better than Obama," a moderate Republican"

I think thats why nominating McCain this cycle was a great thing...he will lose and the concept of a "Me Too" Republican will be discredited. I'm more concerned with the midterm election but our prospects for 2012 are better imo than '08 or even 2000 b/c we've got someone like Mark Sanford (google him and pigs) and a possible Gary Johnson run with Mitt Romney I think being the worst possible. Gone are even more atrocious RINO's like McCain and Juiliani.

3)"It seems to me that most people do not learn from history, and therefore, even if our nation's well-being becomes significantly worse under an Obama administration"

Again a possibility but we don't have a choice either way. In the case of McCain at least a Republican can't be blamed 4 years later. The Dems will have a full shot at it and the Repubs hands will be clean. If McCain was elected they would still blame free markets even though McCain is a still a hack.

With Obama I think there's a better chance at least of dialing down foreign policy.

[Ben2008]

Huh? Did you not read what I wrote correctly? I will not vote for either of the two evils out of principle..

How is refusing to vote for any evil because I have morals a bad thing? lol..:rolleyes:

I'm not saying having morals is a bad thing. I'm saying your morals themselves are perverse. Your principle is irrational. Your principle is evil.

If you're able to step in to help prevent a great evil from happening, at the cost of a smaller evil happening, and you don't do it, what good are you? In order to make yourself feel morally pure, you'll let an attrocity happen when you could have prevented it. I don't see anything respectable about that.

Note also that no candidate is absolutely angelic, so you're always going to be voting for some degree of evil.

[torchbearer]

I'm not saying having morals is a bad thing. I'm saying your morals themselves are perverse. Your principle is irrational. Your principle is evil.

If you're able to step in to help prevent a great evil from happening, at the cost of a smaller evil happening, and you don't do it, what good are you? In order to make yourself feel morally pure, you'll let an attrocity happen when you could have prevented it. I don't see anything respectable about that.

Go away. McCain is evil. And you are advocating Evil.
GO play in traffic. Its safer than your dribble.

[CountryMe]

Exactly.

Dr. Paul said today in an interview on CNN today (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yjImzwuIU) that it would be best for McCain to win, if for nothing else that it will bring some gridlock. That's a sentiment I expressed yesterday in my thread "I hope McCain wins."

If Obama wins, we're going socialist and there's no turning back for many many years.


Just in all fairness Ron Paul also said that Obama would be better trying to bring
our troops home while McCain's health plan is better so he was also pointing out
what would be good about either of them. And I sure disagree that Obama would
bring more socialism than McCain is and that is obvious when you hear what McCain's plans are and that he voted for the Bailout!

[Ben2008]

Go away. McCain is evil. And you are advocating Evil.
GO play in traffic. Its safer than your dribble.

If Hitler and Clinton were running against each other, you wouldn't vote for Clinton because he's a lesser evil. This is the problem with you people who refuse to vote for a lesser evil. Due to your fear of getting your hands dirty, you allow greater evil to happen when it could have been prevented. It's despicable.

[JenH88]

I'm not saying having morals is a bad thing. I'm saying your morals themselves are perverse. Your principle is irrational. Your principle is evil.

If you're able to step in to help prevent a great evil from happening, at the cost of a smaller evil happening, and you don't do it, what good are you? In order to make yourself feel morally pure, you'll let an attrocity happen when you could have prevented it. I don't see anything respectable about that.

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." ~John Quincy Adams.

Irrationality is voting for evil, and justifying that as 'helpful'...

[EndTheFed]

Neither candidate is good for liberty.
Vote for someone who cares about the constitution. It is the only moral decision.
Otherwise you are aiding and abetting criminals.

Ron Paul says McCain would be better for the countryyhan obama which would be a disaster...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yjImzwuIU

[Ben2008]

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." ~John Quincy Adams.

Irrationality is voting for evil, and justifying that as 'helpful'...

"Vote for principle" means nothing unless you define what that principle is. What is your principle?

Voting for evil is not irrational if doing so prevents a greater evil from happening. What's rational about allowing an attrocity to happen if you could have helped prevent it. Again, I think your principle is perverse. Voting for a lesser evil is not BEING evil. It's voting to minimize evil, which is not evil.

I never thought Dr. Paul was absolutely pure or his policies perfect, but I voted for him in the Primary, because I vote for the lesser evil. Under your principle, I shouldn't have voted at all.

[ItsTime]

Obama will suck. That is why I am voting for Barr

[EndTheFed]

Obama will suck. That is why I am voting for Barr

If you are in a swing state your barr vot is useless and translates int a vote for Obama

[JenH88]

Playing into the false illusion of the two party system is irrational if your goal is real liberty and freedom.

We will have to agree to disagree as this conversation is going no where, you are simply repeating the same thing over and over.

I would imagine you would have a better chance of rallying McCain votes elsewhere as many of the people here take the liberty of voting very seriously, and do not degrade it into some kind of sick sport or horse race- my ancestors did not die so that I could throw my vote away like some kind of chess pawn, they died so I could voice my opinion- my REAL opinion.

[ClockwiseSpark]

playing into the false illusion of the two party system is irrational if your goal is real liberty and freedom.

We will have to agree to disagree as this conversation is going no where, you are simply repeating the same thing over and over.

I would imagine you would have a better chance of rallying mccain votes elsewhere as many of the people here take the liberty of voting very seriously, and do not degrade it into some kind of sick sport or horse race- my ancestors did not die so that i could throw my vote away like some kind of chess pawn, they died so i could voice my opinion- my real opinion.

+1776

[Crowish]

Playing into the false illusion of the two party system is irrational if your goal is real liberty and freedom.



I agree 100%.

[EndTheFed]

Playing into the false illusion of the two party system is irrational if your goal is real liberty and freedom.

We will have to agree to disagree as this conversation is going no where, you are simply repeating the same thing over and over.

I would imagine you would have a better chance of rallying McCain votes elsewhere as many of the people here take the liberty of voting very seriously, and do not degrade it into some kind of sick sport or horse race- my ancestors did not die so that I could throw my vote away like some kind of chess pawn, they died so I could voice my opinion- my REAL opinion.


As I have said before... im not falling for the "false choice illusion", you are a victim of false reality. Either McCain or Obama is GOING to win not a false choice.. this is a fact...

tell it to Ron Paul who says McCain will be better for the country than obama which would be a disaster..

Hmmm interesting.. RP says there is a lesser of two evils... how ironic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yjImzwuIU

[torchbearer]

What up with the McCain trolls today?
He must be getting desperate.

[JenH88]

How can something be a fact before it has even occurred? Is it safe to assume that one of the two will win- yes. But let's ask ourselves, why is that a safe assumption in the first place. Of course the logical reason is because our country has fed into the false two party illusion- the facade that you HAVE to choose between these two people. The same illusion some of you are trying to force others to buy into.

There's two types of voters on this board, those that hold the illusionary line that "voting third party" means you wasted your vote, and those who believe you should vote for who you want regardless of what anyone else says or tries to pressure you into.

[Chieftain1776]

As I have said before... im not falling for the "false choice illusion", you are a victim of false reality. Either McCain or Obama is GOING to win not a false choice.. this is a fact...

tell it to Ron Paul who says McCain will be better for the country than obama which would be a disaster..

Hmmm interesting.. RP says there is a lesser of two evils... how ironic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yjImzwuIU

Posting it twice doesn't make it true. I ignored it the first time but yet again you posted it. I can certainly understand the arguments for McCain but Ron Paul supporting him isn't one of them. Everyone knows he's supporting Chuck Baldwin. In video the reporter simply asks what aspects of economic plans would be better, Paul cited small portions of their plans and said McCain would be better for healthcare and Obama for foreign policy and concludes "but quite frankly how can we trust anybody". The disaster comment was in response to the "divided government" approach. Paul did say it would be better off if they were fighting each other and concluded that is still a poor argument to vote for McCain.

In sum Ron Paul was just entertaining the reporters argument and commenting on it....not withdrawing his support of Chuck Baldwin for John McCain.

[Mini-Me]

I wish I could air an ad all over America that's similar to McCain and Obama's joint "get out and vote" ad...except one where at the end, someone yells, "If all of you non-voters came out and voted third party, both of these assholes would probably lose!" ;)

[tonesforjonesbones]

Damn torch...you just said in another thread you were getting ready to go to work for the Obama campaign...so you're an obama troll? Thank GOD there are SOME voices of reason on here. There are probably people here who will vote for McCain but are afraid to say they will on this forum because they'll get blasted. As for Tones, I'm not here for a popularity contest...i'm here to continue with LIBERTY...I would also be VERY afraid of an Obama win...8 years of this communist will absolutely kill any chance we will have for spreading Liberty and getting our momentum back. tones

[torchbearer]

Damn torch...you just said in another thread you were getting ready to go to work for the Obama campaign...so you're an obama troll? Thank GOD there are SOME voices of reason on here. There are probably people here who will vote for McCain but are afraid to say they will on this forum because they'll get blasted. As for Tones, I'm not here for a popularity contest...i'm here to continue with LIBERTY...I would also be VERY afraid of an Obama win...8 years of this communist will absolutely kill any chance we will have for spreading Liberty and getting our momentum back. tones

Ok, maybe you are a troll. I thought you were just a misguided member.
I was talking to endthefed, and was being sarcastic.
My opinion of you just went to total shit.
Ignore list.

[tonesforjonesbones]

well torch you can ignore if you want to...but I am a Liberty Lover supporting McCain. tones

[ClockwiseSpark]

well torch you can ignore if you want to...but I am a Liberty Lover supporting McCain. tones

No such thing.

[BagOfEyebrows]

There have been a lot of sentiments from members here that an Obama Presidency will actually work to our advantage in the future because it will help return our country towards more liberty-oriented principles, particularly in the Republican Party. I want to suggest this may not be the case for three reasons.

There is a possibility that our country will become even more accustomed and adapted to the socialist policies and agenda experienced under an Obama administration. Thus, for pragmatic reasons, our electorate could become even more hostile about the principles of liberty which aim at less government regulation, less taxes, more individual responsibility, more economic/civil freedoms, etc. because they've been used to Obama's policies which "have worked for so long." Of course, the media will do their best to assure the masses of this, and currently, our educational system increasingly espouses socialist/communist propaganda to the upcoming generation, seemingly in preparation of this.

The state of our nation may become so unbearable and intrusive under an Obama administration that people will be desperate for change by anyone who will drive us away from the status quo, which will give the Republicans an upper hand to nominate a candidate who is "just a little bit better than Obama," a moderate Republican, if you will. Thus, there is a possibility that we could still be stuck with another Republican after Obama's Presidency who is not principled in the foundations of liberty and Constitutional government that we all know is right and proper for our republic.

It seems to me that most people do not learn from history, and therefore, even if our nation's well-being becomes significantly worse under an Obama administration, it will most likely go unnoticed by the larger population (some of whom will be steadily enamored with the fact that we just have a Black President in the White House for the first time in our country's history). Undoubtedly, there will be individuals and organizations who will try to justify how Obama's socialist policies/agenda can be finely tuned and tweaked to work in "American democracy," since socialism only failed in other countries because they didn't have the right "political capital" we've enjoyed here in America for centuries. The principles of liberty in civics/economics may then be viewed as archaic and naive principles which failed our nation, due to all of the corporatism and political control of special-interests in Washington, D.C., among other things.

I just want to make it clear that I am not suggesting we should all vote for McCain to thwart Obama's chances of winning (I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils.). I just want to caution those who suggest an Obama Presidency will help us in the long run that it may bring about some unintended consequences, and we need to consider those now in the present, if our grassroots efforts to campaign for liberty are to continue into the future.

Excellent post -

[Theocrat]

What better "principle" to vote on than to prevent as much evil as possible? If you have the opportunity to help prevent a greater evil, then why not take it? I question the "principles" of people who take your stance. I think your "principle" may be irrational.

With all due respect, the tactic of voting for the lesser of two evils is an evil principle itself. It has plagued our nation for many years already, and have things been any better as a result of it? Absolutely not. Every election cycle the Republicans and Democrats become more and more identical to each other, to the point where currently we have two candidates who are 95% alike in their stances on the issues. It's sickening.

The only way we'll prevent evil from entering our civil government is by electing the principally sound and morally good representatives and executives into office. A vote for evil never works, except for the benefit of the evil and to the detriment of the good.

[Zera]

Like it's been said before, it'll end up being the same shit, different asshole situation because I guarantee Obama will end up not doing anything he's planned and if he does, the disaster it will cause will cause people to be more angry than anything. If McCain wins, the GOP is just going to be the way it is now and will just get stronger. All I'm saying is that with an Obama presidency, the neocons will get weaker... And they're all that's holding us back.

inb4 mccain supporter says I'm an Obamadrone.

[Andrew-Austin]

but I am a Liberty Lover supporting McCain.

McCain hates liberty.

This is what he would do to it if he were a Predator alien thing:

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53/Diebold89/predator.gif

The two fellows in the .gif are me and you being drafted to fight the terrorists in Iran.