PDA

View Full Version : A Look Inside Sarah Palin's Church




Grimnir Wotansvolk
10-14-2008, 09:33 PM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-09/new-footage-from-inside-palins-church/#gallery=12;page=1

and to elaborate on that insane preacher:
The upsetting part is what the preacher, Thomas Muthee, has done in his home country of Kenya. After returning from graduate school in Scotland, he came to believe that an old woman named Jane W. Njenga was a real-life witch. He was convinced that her evil supernatural powers were causing death and corruption in their small city.

He decided to take action, and demanded publicly the the woman either convert to Christianity or leave town. She refused, and Muthee gathered supporters into an angry mob outside her house. He was on a loudspeaker telling people to pray for her to die. Some were even on the verge of breaking in and stoning her to death. The police arrived and she finally left town.

To this day, Muthee describes this event as a successful witch hunt and believes he did a great thing for the people who live in the area.

Reverend Wright is a gentleman compared to this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Muthee
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/3773/context/archive

libertarian4321
10-15-2008, 03:24 AM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-09/new-footage-from-inside-palins-church/#gallery=12;page=1

and to elaborate on that insane preacher:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Muthee
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/3773/context/archive

Palin is freakin' scary- the last thing we need is a complete nutjob in the white house.

LibertyEagle
10-15-2008, 03:26 AM
:rolleyes:

TurtleBurger
10-15-2008, 07:02 AM
I have met people who exaggerate the differences, because they have not
distinguished between differences of morality and differences of belief
about facts. For example, one man said to me, "Three hundred years ago
people in England were putting witches to death. Was that what you call the
Rule of Human Nature or Right Conduct?" But surely the reason we do not
execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we
did-if we really thought that there were people going about who had sold
themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him in return
and were using these powers to kill their neighbours or drive them mad or
bring bad weather, surely we would all agree that if anyone deserved the
death penalty, then these filthy quislings did. There is no difference of
moral principle here: the difference is simply about matter of fact. It may
be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral
advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You
would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so
because he believed there were no mice in the house.

-C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

winston_blade
10-15-2008, 07:34 AM
Most Christians would probably agree with nearly everything said in that video.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 08:12 AM
A persons religion should NOT be a part of the discussion AS LONG AS it does not interfear with their job and they do NOT try to impose their beliefs on other people and they will not try to take anothers liberty away.

There is nothing I have see from her that indicates that she would do this. infact there is evidence to the contrary that she would not.

Ozwest
10-15-2008, 08:16 AM
England, Australia, and Europe elect candidates with the understanding of the separation of Church and state.

What's wrong with you fucks?

Deborah K
10-15-2008, 08:19 AM
Seems to me there are a lot of YOU people on a witch hunt.....:rolleyes:

Ozwest
10-15-2008, 08:20 AM
George Bush and Dickless Cheney for eight years.

Nice job pricks.

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:21 AM
A persons religion should NOT be a part of the discussion AS LONG AS it does not interfear with their job and they do NOT try to impose their beliefs on other people and they will not try to take anothers liberty away.

There is nothing I have see from her that indicates that she would do this. infact there is evidence to the contrary that she would not.

Yet Obama is a Muslim right? And His Christian Pastor is crazy? You people are so fucking hypocritical it makes me want to vomit.

I'll take a Reverend Wright over this fruitbat any day.

Ozwest
10-15-2008, 08:23 AM
No need to tell you that...

You are a government institution.

Ozwest
10-15-2008, 08:25 AM
I will repeat.

Your masters are using the Mussolini play book.

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:29 AM
I will repeat.

Your masters are using the Mussolini play book.

I read the Mussolini "playbook", (La Dottrina Del Fascismo) ---(In Italian)...

This is something entirely more sophisticated, yet simple. One has to only look at the backwards ass people, their fainting in the crowds, shouts of Arab, and terrorism... we are in some dark times.

heavenlyboy34
10-15-2008, 08:33 AM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-09/new-footage-from-inside-palins-church/#gallery=12;page=1

and to elaborate on that insane preacher:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Muthee
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/3773/context/archive

Good info. Post again if this shows up on a more "credible" site like msnbc or something. People wouldn't believe me if I got it from these sites. :eek:

D.H.
10-15-2008, 08:34 AM
A persons religion should NOT be a part of the discussion AS LONG AS it does not interfear with their job and they do NOT try to impose their beliefs on other people and they will not try to take anothers liberty away.

There is nothing I have see from her that indicates that she would do this. infact there is evidence to the contrary that she would not.

I wish this were true but her own church supporters in Wasilla say otherwise.

http://images.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/03/debate_wasilla/index.html

CBS News is reporting that she blurs the lines between church and state as governor.

(excerpt)
An Associated Press review of the Republican vice presidential candidate's record as Wasilla mayor and Alaska governor reveals her use of elected office to promote religious causes, sometimes at taxpayer expense and in ways that blur the line between church and state. The U.S. Constitution provides for the separation of church and state.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/11/politics/main4515419.shtml

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 08:36 AM
I will repeat.

Your masters are using the Mussolini play book.

The MSM screams at us over and over that there is so much difference between Obama and McCain yet we know it isn't true. What we don't seem to realize is the enemy--the motivation that underlies the 'lesser of evils voting'--the thing that is keeping the general public from seeing that liberty omnia vincent is the false dichotomies, the paper tiger points of dissention.

The only thing voting solely on the abortion issue has gotten anyone in this country is the great honor of being part of the reason we're all getting raped, pillaged and burned right now.

The issue of whether Obama's church is scarier than Palin's is just divisive--and divisive along the same lines that they already divide us. Playing the card is just helping TPTB keep us divided against ourselves. We need to talk about important stuff.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 08:41 AM
Yet Obama is a Muslim right? And His Christian Pastor is crazy? You people are so fucking hypocritical it makes me want to vomit.

I'll take a Reverend Wright over this fruitbat any day.

There you go mis-quoting me again...

I did not say he was muslim so stop putting words in my mouth.

Have you ever looked into Black Liberation Theology (Trinity Church)

One of the tnts of their beliefs is that the white race is cursed and God desn't mid what you do to white people because of this.

My statements are COMPLETELY consistant and NOT hypocritical.

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:41 AM
The MSM screams at us over and over that there is so much difference between Obama and McCain yet we know it isn't true. What we don't seem to realize is the enemy--the motivation that underlies the 'lesser of evils voting'--the thing that is keeping the general public from seeing that liberty omnia vincent is the false dichotomies, the paper tiger points of dissention.

The only thing voting solely on the abortion issue has gotten anyone in this country is the great honor of being part of the reason we're all getting raped, pillaged and burned right now.

The issue of whether Obama's church is scarier than Palin's is just divisive--and divisive along the same lines that they already divide us. Playing the card is just helping TPTB keep us divided against ourselves. We need to talk about important stuff.


Isn't that what the GOP is doing by putting the future of their campaign entirely against Obama's past and character, suggesting his foreign birth, his religion, his patriotism?

Nothing has convinced me more about how wrong you are, than watching this campaign.

If TPTB are really that powerful, they would have orchestrated a landslide election, without such animosity and insanity. They would not allow "their choice" to be stomped on to such a degree as to think about the disastrous assignations of the 60s. Dividing the country does not help the imaginary PTB. Unification does, and that just isn't a reality. The American people are volatile and angry... anyone can see that now... we are just tired and mistrusting at this point, and maybe that is where we need to be...

I seriously doubt Obama is anything but a newbie charismatic senator who means well; a good politician, and something that the general population has heavily vetted at this point. We get what we see, an organized, cheerful, honest working man, who, regardless of what you say and even his campaign might say in the push to get votes, is a rational and reasonable person. All this talk about secret powers controlling things is getting tiring. It is irrational, and you folks need to grow up.

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:44 AM
There you go mis-quoting me again...

I did not say he was muslim so stop putting words in my mouth.

Have you ever looked into Black Liberation Theology (Trinity Church)

One of the tnts of their beliefs is that the white race is cursed and God desn't mid what you do to white people because of this.

My statements are COMPLETELY consistant and NOT hypocritical.

You missed my point Trashthought, the point was that you guys "aka GOP" have been using religion and character to try to win this election, and only after it backfires do you say it is off limits...

Hypocritical at the extreme.

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 08:48 AM
Nothing has convinced me more about how wrong you are, than watching this campaign.

What in the hell are you talking about, Kade? Damn, I thought you were the one liberal on earth too smart to try to put words in my mouth. Please read it again, sir.

So long as we keep listening to these mud-slinging, sound-biting misdirectors talk about anything except substance, the robber barons will continue to get their way. Have you seen anything debated this year except catch-phrases and personalities?

We have to get people's minds off of the issues they like to debate, like whose religion is best, and onto things people need to debate, like is our safety worth sacrificing liberty for and who's really threatening our safety anyway.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 08:50 AM
I wish this were true but her own church supporters in Wasilla say otherwise.

http://images.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/03/debate_wasilla/index.html

CBS News is reporting that she blurs the lines between church and state as governor.

(excerpt)
An Associated Press review of the Republican vice presidential candidate's record as Wasilla mayor and Alaska governor reveals her use of elected office to promote religious causes, sometimes at taxpayer expense and in ways that blur the line between church and state. The U.S. Constitution provides for the separation of church and state.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/11/politics/main4515419.shtml


I only skimmed these articles but I saw nothing that indicatedthat mystatements were violated... I saw that she had people pray for her debate performance and wanted "Gods" help in it... There is no problem there..

Then the CBS article... Yea.. the organization that used falsified documents in the 2004 election to smear republicans..

It talked about how church appearance was at "tax payers expense"... She travels all over the state for meetings with various groups. She reduced the expenses of the previous gov by 50 percent on travel and per diem.

Don't see any problem there.. She was imposin her beliefs on NOONE unless I missed something..

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:51 AM
What in the hell are you talking about, Kade? Damn, I thought you were the one liberal on earth too smart to try to put words in my mouth. Please read it again, sir.

So long as we keep listening to these mud-slinging, sound-biting misdirectors talk about anything except substance, the robber barons will continue to get their way. Have you seen anything debated this year except catch-phrases and personalities?

We have to get people's minds off of the issues they like to debate, like whose religion is best, and onto things people need to debate, like is our safety worth sacrificing liberty for and who's really threatening our safety anyway.

I'm just not convinced that Obama was chosen to be President. It doesn't make sense, not with the degree and flavor that these attacks have taken...

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 08:52 AM
Isn't that what the GOP is doing by putting the future of their campaign entirely against Obama's past and character, suggesting his foreign birth, his religion, his patriotism?

Nothing has convinced me more about how wrong you are, than watching this campaign.

If TPTB are really that powerful, they would have orchestrated a landslide election, without such animosity and insanity. They would not allow "their choice" to be stomped on to such a degree as to think about the disastrous assignations of the 60s. Dividing the country does not help the imaginary PTB. Unification does, and that just isn't a reality. The American people are volatile and angry... anyone can see that now... we are just tired and mistrusting at this point, and maybe that is where we need to be...

I seriously doubt Obama is anything but a newbie charismatic senator who means well; a good politician, and something that the general population has heavily vetted at this point. We get what we see, an organized, cheerful, honest working man, who, regardless of what you say and even his campaign might say in the push to get votes, is a rational and reasonable person. All this talk about secret powers controlling things is getting tiring. It is irrational, and you folks need to grow up.

Again.. Look into Black Liberation Theology...

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 08:53 AM
I'm just not convinced that Obama was chosen to be President. It doesn't make sense, not with the degree and flavor that these attacks have taken...

I don't think either of them were chosen to be president. I just think they both received the stamp of approval.

The stamp of approval, to my mind, reads, "Will play ball." I think they both have it and the truly powerful don't care one bit which figurehead we prefer.

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:55 AM
Again.. Look into Black Liberation Theology...

I took an entire course in it, and studied Hopkins and Cone.

Like all religions, it is batshit. However, the rednecks with rifles outnumber any number of potential militant Christian blacks 10 to 1... so I'm not as frightened.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 08:55 AM
You missed my point Trashthought, the point was that you guys "aka GOP" have been using religion and character to try to win this election, and only after it backfires do you say it is off limits...

Hypocritical at the extreme.

You are full of shit... First of all I am not the GOP...

obama's church or former church (yea right) subscribes to Black Liberation Theology which doesnt mind taking away others liberties.. as long as you are white.

there is nothing hypocritical about this...

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:55 AM
I don't think either of them were chosen to be president. I just think they both received the stamp of approval.

The stamp of approval, to my mind, reads, "Will play ball." I think they both have it and the truly powerful don't care one bit which figurehead we prefer.

If Ron Paul received favorable news coverage, fair reporting, and ended up winning the election, what would you say in response to someone who said "He received the stamp of approval"?

D.H.
10-15-2008, 08:57 AM
The only thing voting solely on the abortion issue has gotten anyone in this country is the great honor of being part of the reason we're all getting raped, pillaged and burned right now.

The issue of whether Obama's church is scarier than Palin's is just divisive--and divisive along the same lines that they already divide us. Playing the card is just helping TPTB keep us divided against ourselves. We need to talk about important stuff.

These last two statements contradict themselves. There were plenty of Dem's I knew who would have voted for Paul and not cared about Obama's church. They were not emotionally attached to his religious beliefs.

Enter Palin. When the abortion card is played they WILL abandon Paul or any third party for her message. Your first statement is more accurate.

I have talked to people who in so many words have told me they would vote for SATAN if he would outlaw abortion.

They have told me, F the economy, F the war, F the constitution. Palin would save babies.

I don't know why people are like this and yes, I understand not all are. But they are a big enough voting block that it warrants discussion of WHY they are this divisive. My point is they won't listen to the IMPORTANT stuff because as soon as the abortion/religion card is played they shut down, close ranks and tune out.

That's the problem.

It underlines why our founding fathers wanted a separation of church and state. It also underlines the importance of our 2nd amendment rights. Because I know that as long as there are nut jobs out there like this I need my gun rights to be protected ;)

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:57 AM
You are full of shit... First of all I am not the GOP...

obama's church or former church (yea right) subscribes to Black Liberation Theology which desnt mindtaking away others liberties.. as long as you are white.

there is nothing hypocritical about this...

You are a GOP unpaid wannabe plant, we have already established this as fact.

Second, I am no fan of BLT, and neither is Obama. Frankly, the man is probably an atheist, and only uses religion to get votes.

Palin, with her little Israeli flag, is definately not faking it. She is a bonified batshittian.

Kade
10-15-2008, 08:58 AM
These last two statements contradict themselves. There were plenty of Dem's I knew who would have voted for Paul and not cared about Obama's church. They were not emotionally attached to his religious beliefs.

Enter Palin. When the abortion card is played they WILL abandon Paul or any third party for her message. Your first statement is more accurate.

I have talked to people who in so many words have told me they would vote for SATAN if he would outlaw abortion.

They have told me, F the economy, F the war, F the constitution. Palin would save babies.

I don't know why people are like this and yes, I understand not all are. But they are a big enough voting block that it warrants discussion of WHY they are this divisive. My point is they won't listen to the IMPORTANT stuff because as soon as the abortion/religion card is played they shut down, close ranks and tune out.

That's the problem.

It underlines why our founding fathers wanted a separation of church and state. It also underlines the importance of our 2nd amendment rights. Because I know that as long as there are nut jobs out there like this I need my gun rights to be protected ;)

Where did you come from?

Post more please.

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 08:59 AM
If Ron Paul received favorable news coverage, fair reporting, and ended up winning the election, what would you say in response to someone who said "He received the stamp of approval"?

If angels danced on pinheads, how many could do it? If that had happened, it would be a different world and I'd probably just say, hey, he got my stamp of approval so I'm happy he won. Beyond that, I don't know...

But I do know Kucinich didn't get it either, so obviously whoever bestows the approval doesn't give a $#!+ about the general perceptions of "left" and "right".

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 09:01 AM
I took an entire course in it, and studied Hopkins and Cone.

Like all religions, it is batshit. However, the rednecks with rifles outnumber any number of potential militant Christian blacks 10 to 1... so I'm not as frightened.

The rednecks with rifles I know and pal around with do not want to take anyones liberty until they come on their property anf try t take teirs or harm their family... If this is not ok with you ... to damn bad.

Don't come on my property to do harm and you will have no problem.

If you have studied as you say you have "ALL religions" so well then you should understand the difference in palin's religion and obama's.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 09:06 AM
These last two statements contradict themselves. There were plenty of Dem's I knew who would have voted for Paul and not cared about Obama's church. They were not emotionally attached to his religious beliefs.

Enter Palin. When the abortion card is played they WILL abandon Paul or any third party for her message. Your first statement is more accurate.

I have talked to people who in so many words have told me they would vote for SATAN if he would outlaw abortion.

They have told me, F the economy, F the war, F the constitution. Palin would save babies.

I don't know why people are like this and yes, I understand not all are. But they are a big enough voting block that it warrants discussion of WHY they are this divisive. My point is they won't listen to the IMPORTANT stuff because as soon as the abortion/religion card is played they shut down, close ranks and tune out.

That's the problem.

It underlines why our founding fathers wanted a separation of church and state. It also underlines the importance of our 2nd amendment rights. Because I know that as long as there are nut jobs out there like this I need my gun rights to be protected ;)

I'm sure people here know and understand that seperation of church and state is NOWHERE in the constitution. There IS freedom of religion (Not freedom from religion). The thing that is restricted is imposing a state religion. IT DOES NOT say officials cant havea religion and it does not restrict them from the free excercise there of as long as that does not impose religion on another.

D.H.
10-15-2008, 09:07 AM
End the Fed; She used her religious beliefs as mayor to charge rape victims for their own rape kits. Alaskans were outraged at the practice (the former sheriff DIDN'T charge - it only happened when she got in) and even after much negative press coverage she REFUSED to stop.

They had to change state law because of her to forbid it. Changing state law for ONE TOWN - think about this. (She didn't like the fact that part of the "kit" is a morning after pill for rape victims)


http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/10/08/fact-check-palin-rape-kit-story-true/

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 09:09 AM
The rednecks with rifles I know and pal around with do not want to take anyones liberty until they come on their property anf try t take teirs or harm their family... If this is not ok with you ... to damn bad.

Don't come on my property to do harm and you will have no problem.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many of the people in my neck of the woods are so completely libertarian yet refuse to vote libertarian. I've been seeing it for decades and still can't figure it out. It reminds me of the liquor laws around here. Will Rogers described the phenomenon best: "Every four years Oklahomans sober themselves up, march to the polls, and vote themselves dry again." It's as if the bootlegger tradition feels more free to them than doing the same thing and not being an outlaw for it. I guess most of the guys around here have just seen too many cowboy movies.

If they try to socialize this whole nation, though, they will rip it in half approximately down the Mississippi. This isn't me making threats or promises. This is the opinion of someone who knows Westerners much better than those idiots in D.C. do.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 09:10 AM
You are a GOP unpaid wannabe plant, we have already established this as fact.


Bullshit.



Second, I am no fan of BLT, and neither is Obama. Frankly, the man is probably an atheist, and only uses religion to get votes.


Yea... He jusrt stayed there for 20 years.



Palin, with her little Israeli flag, is definately not faking it. She is a bonified batshittian.

You just can't stand people who believe in God because you are to fucking stupid to understand you have a relogion ... Atheism... Which is the stupidest position I have ever heard of.

Kade
10-15-2008, 09:12 AM
I'm sure people here know and understand that seperation of church and state is NOWHERE in the constitution. There IS freedom of religion (Not freedom from religion). The thing that is restricted is imposing a state religion. IT DOES NOT say officials cant havea religion and it does not restrict them from the free excercise there of as long as that does not impose religion on another.

Freedom from Religion is a right. Regardless of what you and others claim. Not all rights are written in stone. The Constitution is a limitation of government, and the first amendment, the VERY first words in the bill of rights, are meant to neuter the government in the realm of religion. They are to respect NO ESTABLISHMENT of religion. Favor none, allow all.

That is the essence of the wall of separation, which comes from Jefferson's own writings.

This myth about "Christian nation" and so forth is a dishonest attempt to sneak theocracy through the back door.

Secular is not a bad word. Secular is neutrality, and we are all better off because of it.

Ozwest
10-15-2008, 09:13 AM
It never ceases to amaze me that so many of the people in my neck of the woods are so completely libertarian yet refuse to vote libertarian. I've been seeing it for decades and still can't figure it out. It reminds me of the liquor laws around here. Will Rogers described the phenomenon best: "Every four years Oklahomans sober themselves up, march to the polls, and vote themselves dry again." It's as if the bootlegger tradition feels more free to them than doing the same thing and not being an outlaw for it. I guess most of the guys around here have just seen too many cowboy movies.

If they try to socialize this whole nation, though, they will rip it in half approximately down the Mississippi. This isn't me making threats or promises. This is the opinion of someone who knows Westerners much better than those idiots in D.C. do.

I realized that in the New Hampshire Primaries, when I reckoned Dr. Paul had half a shot.

Then...

I realized you guys are hopeless.

Kade
10-15-2008, 09:14 AM
Bullshit.



Yea... He jusrt stayed there for 20 years.



You just can't stand people who believe in God because you are to fucking stupid to understand you have a relogion ... Atheism... Which is the stupidest position I have ever heard of.

I'm too fucking stupid to understand that I have a "relogion"?

You are seriously grasping at straws. You don't appear to understand the Atheist's position on anything... because you don't realize that you are an atheist as well...

Don't believe me?

What's your thoughts on Minerva?

Thor?


How about Ra?


Didn't think so, my brother Atheist. I just take it one extra god.

Ozwest
10-15-2008, 09:16 AM
You are controlled by the media, and lazy in your politics.

There-fore you get screwed everytime.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 09:27 AM
End the Fed; She used her religious beliefs as mayor to charge rape victims for their own rape kits. Alaskans were outraged at the practice (the former sheriff DIDN'T charge - it only happened when she got in) and even after much negative press coverage she REFUSED to stop.

They had to change state law because of her to forbid it. Changing state law for ONE TOWN - think about this. (She didn't like the fact that part of the "kit" is a morning after pill for rape victims)


http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/10/08/fact-check-palin-rape-kit-story-true/

I'm not completely sure about this.. I had heard itwas debunked.. but is this a religious decision or a financial decision (not is this right or wrong that is another discussion).

I don't thinkt this falls into her pushing her religion on anyone.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 09:30 AM
It never ceases to amaze me that so many of the people in my neck of the woods are so completely libertarian yet refuse to vote libertarian. I've been seeing it for decades and still can't figure it out. It reminds me of the liquor laws around here. Will Rogers described the phenomenon best: "Every four years Oklahomans sober themselves up, march to the polls, and vote themselves dry again." It's as if the bootlegger tradition feels more free to them than doing the same thing and not being an outlaw for it. I guess most of the guys around here have just seen too many cowboy movies.

If they try to socialize this whole nation, though, they will rip it in half approximately down the Mississippi. This isn't me making threats or promises. This is the opinion of someone who knows Westerners much better than those idiots in D.C. do.

No.. this discussion with Kade goes way back... I have MANY MANY times explained my mccain vote... several threads document this... but here is how I describe myself... I am a Ron Paul supporter and a mccain voter... for THIS ELECTION

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 09:33 AM
Freedom from Religion is a right. Regardless of what you and others claim. Not all rights are written in stone. The Constitution is a limitation of government, and the first amendment, the VERY first words in the bill of rights, are meant to neuter the government in the realm of religion. They are to respect NO ESTABLISHMENT of religion. Favor none, allow all.

That is the essence of the wall of separation, which comes from Jefferson's own writings.

This myth about "Christian nation" and so forth is a dishonest attempt to sneak theocracy through the back door.

Secular is not a bad word. Secular is neutrality, and we are all better off because of it.

Your "Freedom from religion" only extends as far as the end of your nose. It should not effect my religion or the exercise there of including me bringing MY 10 commndments into MY courtroom if i wish. It does not impose ANYTHING on you.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 09:39 AM
I'm too fucking stupid to understand that I have a "relogion"?

You are seriously grasping at straws. You don't appear to understand the Atheist's position on anything... because you don't realize that you are an atheist as well...

Don't believe me?

What's your thoughts on Minerva?

Thor?


How about Ra?


Didn't think so, my brother Atheist. I just take it one extra god.

As I said.. stupidest position I have ever heard of. If you take the question "Ok where did you comefrom?" back to it's fullest extent you come to the point that you say well everything came from nothing which denies everything "natural science" says or you reach a point that you just have to "exercise you faith" and say you can't ewxplain it (if you are honest) or you go on with your delusion.

I am not your brother athiest...

Kade
10-15-2008, 09:43 AM
As I said.. stupidest position I have ever heard of. If you take the question "Ok where did you comefrom?" back to it's fullest extent you come to the point that you say well everything came from nothing which denies everything "natural science" says or you reach a point that you just have to "exercise you faith" and say you can't ewxplain it (if you are honest) or you go on with your delusion.

I am not your brother athiest...

Nobody but the stupid pretend to know where we came from... we have ideas only, and we test them.

You spelled atheist wrong, again.

Kade
10-15-2008, 09:43 AM
Your "Freedom from religion" only extends as far as the end of your nose. It should not effect my religion or the exercise there of including me bringing MY 10 commndments into MY courtroom if i wish. It does not impose ANYTHING on you.

Your COURTROOM?

I'm sorry, but if you are a JUDGE, you are a servant of the people. There is no, MY COURTROOM.

That's tyrant speak. You are nothing but a pathetic spewer of pundit talking points without spell check. You know how tired these arguments you make are? At this point in the culture war, the flag runners could dispel this nonsense.

D.H.
10-15-2008, 09:49 AM
I'm not completely sure about this.. I had heard itwas debunked.. but is this a religious decision or a financial decision (not is this right or wrong that is another discussion).

I don't thinkt this falls into her pushing her religion on anyone.


People who care about freedom and and unwarranted gov't intervention need to worry about this bias. She is very much against abortion even in the case of incest. That belief should not be pushed on citizens.

It can't be financial. I totally disagree - it's a crime like any other....If your house was robbed should you be expected to pay the police for their gas to come out and investigate and take fingerprints and get a separate bill for this? That's what we pay taxes for! Why was this issue singled out in her town?

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 09:54 AM
Nobody but the stupid pretend to know where we came from... we have ideas only, and we test them.


I don't pretend... I have faith... and so do you. You have faith that there is no God.



You spelled atheist wrong, again.

Sorry... I don't have a use for this word that often... :D

D.H.
10-15-2008, 10:24 AM
Freedom from Religion is a right. Regardless of what you and others claim. Not all rights are written in stone. The Constitution is a limitation of government, and the first amendment, the VERY first words in the bill of rights, are meant to neuter the government in the realm of religion. They are to respect NO ESTABLISHMENT of religion. Favor none, allow all.

That is the essence of the wall of separation, which comes from Jefferson's own writings.

This myth about "Christian nation" and so forth is a dishonest attempt to sneak theocracy through the back door.

Secular is not a bad word. Secular is neutrality, and we are all better off because of it.

I couldn't have said it better. That's because this line of thinking -neutrality being behind what the forefather's intentions were - takes the EMOTION out of government and forces us to get down to the boring, yet necessary function of actually RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT.

This is what we are lacking. Everyone can and should agree. Left, right, center.

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 10:31 AM
This is what we are lacking. Everyone can and should agree. Left, right, center.

This left/right crap is starting to go by the wayside, though not quickly enough. We're being robbed and those of us on this forum are largely ahead of the curve. Today you're a robber baron or a victim. Which side are you on, boys?

Does anyone here really, really think anyone--anyone--in the Insider Power Structure really cares how many of us abort our bastard children? Really?

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 10:33 AM
I couldn't have said it better. That's because this line of thinking -neutrality being behind what the forefather's intentions were - takes the EMOTION out of government and forces us to get down to the boring, yet necessary function of actually RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT.

This is what we are lacking. Everyone can and should agree. Left, right, center.

I agree but this but this line of thinking, many times, is used t mask another line of thinking: You are welcome to your religion but don't even think a religious thought while walking down the public street or else your violating my "right to freedom from religion".

Tolerance is a two way street.

Kade
10-15-2008, 11:02 AM
I agree but this but this line of thinking, many times, is used t mask another line of thinking: You are welcome to your religion but don't even think a religious thought while walking down the public street or else your violating my "right to freedom from religion".

Tolerance is a two way street.

This is a caricature you have created out of thin air. Nobody is stopping anyone from practicing their religion or faith. We only ask that it be removed from the annals of our government power, where you would be equally perturbed by a Muslim Prayer meeting, or reverence to any faith other than your own. That you would suggest that people are trying to stop you from worshiping, or even hint that people are against you "thinking" about your faith is blatantly and utterly false. This is the persecution complex showing it's ugly head. You folks are a majority in this country, act with some respect and dignity, and leave the government and the rest of us out of it.

D.H.
10-15-2008, 11:04 AM
I agree but this but this line of thinking, many times, is used t mask another line of thinking: You are welcome to your religion but don't even think a religious thought while walking down the public street or else your violating my "right to freedom from religion".

Tolerance is a two way street.


Honestly, I am not like that. I truly have respect for other people's beliefs I just want to keep it out of government for the reasons stated.

It's not a lot to ask, and yes I think we can agree. Take the average worplace in America.....People can't get away with bringing their religion to the workplace the way our politicians do. Prayer breakfasts? I'd like to see them try that in most workplaces. (I am off work today LOL) but like most jobs, if I went into work and started talking with coworkers about abortion or religion, my boss would be all over that telling us to "shut up, get to work and take it up AFTER work".

Common sense. Yet our politicians as part of their PLATFORM talk about these issues on work time and on our dime. We can't get away with that ourselves! Is it too much to ask that they put this stuff away and concentrate on running the country?

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 11:08 AM
Is it too much to ask that they put this stuff away and concentrate on running the country?

If only the majority of us could understand this and adopt this attitude! Instead, they use it as a wedge, and to distract us from just exactly what happens when they do "concentrate on running the country".

And to stay comfortable, we do indeed need a lot of distraction from what the bastards are doing.

Time for Change
10-15-2008, 11:13 AM
I see the disinformation machine is still in full swing for every potential candidate out there.

This forum is amazingly tolerant of this goofy bullshit.

It is not isolated to any particular candidate either...
this one did that, that one belives this, he's elitist, she's racist, he doesn't fall in line with the MSM's agenda, he's bad, she's bad, they're bad, jonny fucked a goat...blah blah blah
It never ends.

Do people get paid to spread all sorts of shit all over the internet?

People, these are all politicians we are discussing.
if the media mentions their name they ARE fucking liars, cheats, scum and unfit to lead.
The whole lot of them.
That's politics...get used ot it.

All the effort to sway people one way or the other is a waste because the presidential race is predetermined LONG before any voting takes place.

It is a means to distract us while alternate agenda are played out...and it is working quite nicely for them.
We are being sold out and people are busy spreading bullshit on the internet instead of working to FIRE CONGRESS, expose corruption, etc.

Focus.

Deborah K
10-15-2008, 11:19 AM
I read the Mussolini "playbook", (La Dottrina Del Fascismo) ---(In Italian)...

This is something entirely more sophisticated, yet simple. One has to only look at the backwards ass people, their fainting in the crowds, shouts of Arab, and terrorism... we are in some dark times.

Take a breath Kade, your man's gonna win.

tonesforjonesbones
10-15-2008, 11:24 AM
It is folly to believe that religion will EVER be separated from government. If morals and values are embedded in you, by your religious upbringing there will ALWAYS be religion in government. If one person of faith votes...religion will be involved. THAT is what the Founders banked on...the PEOPLE will vote their RELIGIOUS morals and values...so there didn't NEED to be an establishment of a state religion. Alas, the communists have worked well to rid our society of good morals and values...so we now have a fairly immoral country and a hugely immoral government. tones

Deborah K
10-15-2008, 11:27 AM
Tones, I agree with you, but it is futile to debate the issue with someone like Kade. He has chosen to re-write history with regard to the relevance of Christianity and its principles on the founding fathers and on the founding of our country. Been there, done that.

D.H.
10-15-2008, 11:31 AM
People, these are all politicians we are discussing.
if the media mentions their name they ARE fucking liars, cheats, scum and unfit to lead.
The whole lot of them.
That's politics...get used ot it.

In the effort to sway people one way or the other is a waste because the presidential race is predetermined LONG before any voting takes place.

It is a means to distract us while alternate agenda are played out...and it is working quite nicely for them.
We are being sold out and people are busy spreading bullshit on the internet instead of working to FIRE CONGRESS, expose corruption, etc.

Focus.
What about Ron Paul, he has been in the media a lot, especially recently.

If races are predetermined then why bother? This is a defeatist arguement.

Focus. Ok, but don't worry I can multi task

tonesforjonesbones
10-15-2008, 11:58 AM
I know Deborah...i know. It's easier to be an atheist because you don't have to feel guilty about anything or be responsible for your actions. There is TONS of revisionist history. The communists knew they had to destroy Christianity in the USA in order to overtake it..and they have done a damn fine job. I'm clinging to my guns and religion...that's that! tones

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 12:05 PM
I know Deborah...i know. It's easier to be an atheist because you don't have to feel guilty about anything or be responsible for your actions. There is TONS of revisionist history. The communists knew they had to destroy Christianity in the USA in order to overtake it..and they have done a damn fine job. I'm clinging to my guns and religion...that's that! tones

Hey tones...


Me too!

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 12:08 PM
I am now speaking to half of you:

Dammit, you don't need God to be moral!

I am now speaking to the other half of you:

May be, but in many, many cases it sure helps!

I am now speaking to everyone:

We let them split us the way they split the masses by feeding and using our own intolerance and they will keep winning!!

tonesforjonesbones
10-15-2008, 12:09 PM
GOD is not DEAD! TONES

acptulsa
10-15-2008, 12:17 PM
GOD is not DEAD! TONES

Obviously not. And to all of you atheists, I ask, if so, why all the churches? Obviously not.

But, tones, if He doesn't shove Himself down people's throats, why would we?

Time for Change
10-15-2008, 12:35 PM
What about Ron Paul, he has been in the media a lot, especially recently.

If races are predetermined then why bother? This is a defeatist arguement.

Focus. Ok, but don't worry I can multi task

Sure he has, now that he has withdrawn his presidential bid.
The MSM couldn't lend credibility to his campaign because MANY MANY people would have voted for him and that is in direct contrast to their predetermined leader.
They would have a lot of explaining to do when their candidate was declared the winner in the face of an overwhelming vote count FOR RP.

As far as predetermined officials, I think that applies to the office of the master puppet (I mean president) only.
Look at how McCain got the party nod.
Seriously McCain?

He had to be promised something last time around and the party is making good on it by selecting him as the candidate.

How else can it be explained that this guy with the personality of a doorknob, lack of speaking skills and lack of popularity ended up getting where he is.
(This is all stated with the generous assumption that the party did not select him as a sacrificial candidate, deliberately handing the race to the dems...which I still partially suspect)

Explain how somebody like Obama can get the nod, given his lack of leadership or executive experience, against some of the formidable democrats that ran.

Something is fishy in DC.

Both candidates are no good for the country; yet here we are, faced with choosing between two big yahoos so far out of touch with a "Middle Class" it is staggering.
One thinks he's Robin Hood, the other one thinks he is in the movie Top Gun.
Both are sickeningly inept.

Sure we can select an alternate party that has no traction because the media does not acknowledge their existence.
Most people will hear of the other candidates, for the first time, the day they look at the ballot.

The media will report a meager 1 to 5% for them and they will gain no more than that predetermined percentage when the votes are counted, I assure you.

You see my thinking now?
Both "Popular" Candidates are controlled by somefuckingbody, so it does not matter which one is chosen, as long as it is one of the two predetermined people.
Same agenda
Same handlers
Same Old Shit

D.H.
10-15-2008, 12:37 PM
Tones and End The Fed;

I don't think taking gov't out of religion is trying to stamp it out. In fact it is the opposite. The more we separate it from the business of gov't the more it fosters an environment of religious freedom and diversity. It has the opposite effect than what you are saying because people are free to practice what they believe and not have it used as a political tool against them.

tonesforjonesbones
10-15-2008, 12:39 PM
If Ron Paul had wanted to be president he would have run Independent..and he could have won. Everyone wanted him to, he did not want to for whatever reason. Ron Paul killed his own chances...I figured this out a long time ago and accepted that he didn't want to be president. Maybe he thought he was too old..i dunno. It is the MESSAGE that is important! We keep on truckin! tones

RockEnds
10-15-2008, 12:42 PM
Adding to my list of crazy notions I've learned from this forum:

Because I'm not a Christian, I am a commie.

micahnelson
10-15-2008, 12:42 PM
Adding to my list of crazy notions I've learned from this forum:

Because I'm not a Christian, I am a commie.

Not true, you could be a terrorist.

EndTheFed
10-15-2008, 12:45 PM
Adding to my list of crazy notions I've learned from this forum:

Because I'm not a Christian, I am a commie.

Now how did you come to this conclusion?

RockEnds
10-15-2008, 12:45 PM
Not true, you could be a terrorist.

I've intentionally omitted any mention of that word from my analysis as to avoid the possibility of self-incrimination through the use of sarcasm.

micahnelson
10-15-2008, 12:46 PM
I've intentionally omitted any mention of that word from my analysis as to avoid the possibility of self-incrimination through the use of sarcasm.

Use of sarcasm makes you a liberal.

RockEnds
10-15-2008, 12:47 PM
Use of sarcasm makes you a liberal.

The list just keeps gettin' longer. :cool:

D.H.
10-15-2008, 12:54 PM
Time,

I am inclined to agree with you about the predetermined part sometimes. I said defeatist because I am not sure what else we have and I want to do something.

I do see the problems with all the candidiates and I comment on them even here not to be on one side or another (even though I get accused of it) but because I am a news junkie and it's a national race.

Even alternative news I like. I found RP in 2002 when I started listening to Alex Jones show. So, if I wasn't a news junkie I wouldn't have given RP a chance. But that makes me a person watching a lot of MSM and this is the topic now.

I DO get what you are saying it is not lost on me. I would write more but I have to leave.

Peace

(disclaimer - that does not make me a communist for anyone reading) ;)

Deborah K
10-15-2008, 12:59 PM
Adding to my list of crazy notions I've learned from this forum:

Because I'm not a Christian, I am a commie.

Every spectrum, whether it be a politcal or religious one, has its fanatics. They are the fringe, not the norm. When coming to conclusions about a group like this one, in the RPFs, it's better for you, if you give the least amount of credence to the fringe.

RockEnds
10-15-2008, 01:04 PM
Every spectrum, whether it be a politcal or religious one, has its fanatics. They are the fringe, not the norm. When coming to conclusions about a group like this one, in the RPFs, it's better for you, if you give the least amount of credence to the fringe.

Oh, the fringe is what makes this place fun. I wasn't complaining nearly as much as I was simply making an observation.

Edit: Maybe I should point out what that observation was. :confused: Religious convictions are a product of conscience. People can differ on religious opinions and even interpret the founding fathers differently without a communist plot in play.

Having said that, I actually believe that there is/was a communist plot to take over America, so don't count me out of the fringe. I just don't think that being a lock-step dogmatic Christian is an indicator of who is on what side.

Deborah K
10-15-2008, 02:44 PM
Oh, the fringe is what makes this place fun. I wasn't complaining nearly as much as I was simply making an observation.

Edit: Maybe I should point out what that observation was. :confused: Religious convictions are a product of conscience. People can differ on religious opinions and even interpret the founding fathers differently without a communist plot in play.

Having said that, I actually believe that there is/was a communist plot to take over America, so don't count me out of the fringe. I just don't think that being a lock-step dogmatic Christian is an indicator of who is on what side.


I believe there is a plot as well. A plot to merge us with mexico and canada, and turn us into a version of the two socialist countries that they plan to merge us with. It has started with this economic crisis, and then the bail-out where they completely ignored the people. They don't give a f'k what we think anymore, and it happened almost overnight. I'm serious when I write this, if we don't come up with a short term (as well as a long term) plan to stop them, we will not be Americans for very much longer. :(

tonesforjonesbones
10-15-2008, 05:10 PM
Please google Hegelian Dialectic, Controlled Opposition, False Opposition, Delphi Technique..all communist psy ops . tones