Awesome invention for off-the-grid heat and energy!

[Ninja Homer]

http://www.blfdesigns.com/frictionheater/index.shtml

Wood is used to create heat using friction (not burned), which boils water to create steam. The steam can be used for heat, to run a generator, etc. It easily generates enough power to run the electric motor that creates the friction. This is not an "over unity" or "free energy" device... the wood is consumed, just very very efficiently.

The inventor has said that a cord of oak is enough to run the device non-stop for 5 years, putting out a constant temperature of over 500 degrees. The one in the video is a simple prototype. He's working on a better, more efficient design.

More info here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2835-friction-steam-boiler.html

[Conza88]

That's awesome :D

[Mini-Me]

Whoa, nice find!

[FindLiberty]

Doubtful...

[Johnnybags]

of course the original steam burst will be large but then the water quickly cools the plate and thus the steam is reduced. Better to have El SOL focused on a water tank to make steam.

[klamath]

Free energy device. There is not that much energy in a cord of wood. BEWARE.

[Cowlesy]

It's an interesting concept, and according to the second link a lot of people are interesting in talking to this guy including our buddy T. Boone Pickens.

Might be a cool alternative energy supply, but certainly would require a lot of testing/perfecting to go primary with it I'd think.

[klamath]

This is kind of like printing money and handing it out to everyone. We will all be rich!

[Cowlesy]

This is kind of like printing money and handing it out to everyone. We will all be rich!

Klamath, I doubt anyone on this board knows more about off-the-grid living than you, but you have to concede that they are not saying or marketing this as "free energy", but as an interesting alternative.

If this guy takes two pieces of 4x4 and generates efficient sustainable power, how can you equate it to printing money and handing it out?

[torchbearer]

I thought this thread was going to highlight a wood stove.
:)
http://www.closertonature.com/emergency/images/WoodStoveF.jpg

Hook a steam engine to it, and you'd have heat, energy, and a stove all in one. completely off the grid.

[klamath]

Klamath, I doubt anyone on this board knows more about off-the-grid living than you, but you have to concede that they are not saying or marketing this as "free energy", but as an interesting alternative.

If this guy takes two pieces of 4x4 and generates efficient sustainable power, how can you equate it to printing money and handing it out?

Where is the energy coming from? Wood has energy because photo synthsis over a hundred years created carbon hydrogen bonds that release the stored energy when the bonds are broken through oxydation. There is only so much energy in a piece of wood. This is propetual motion hiding behind the statement that it uses the water and wood up. NOT! When this guy starts selling his device please don't waste your FRNs on it.

[Ninja Homer]

Where is the energy coming from? Wood has energy because photo synthsis over a hundred years created carbon hydrogen bonds that release the stored energy when the bonds are broken through oxydation. There is only so much energy in a piece of wood. This is propetual motion hiding behind the statement that it uses the water and wood up. NOT! When this guy starts selling his device please don't waste your FRNs on it.

Good question... how much potential energy does wood actually contain? Using a wood burning stove, most of the energy is lost through the chimney.

This device has no chimney, so no energy loss. Also, it's done within an airtight box, so is it really using oxidation to break the chemical bonds, or is something else going on?

Another thing to note is that the inventor is using green wood, not aged dry wood. When wood is left out to dry, is it just losing water, or is it releasing other gases as well?

I really see no reason to not trust the inventor. He has been very open about how it works, and has been speaking with at least one person at http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2835-friction-steam-boiler.html

I'm sure at least a couple people at Energetic Forum are already working on replicating the design. It's pretty simple and straightforward, so we should have confirmation from replicators pretty quick. These people strongly believe in open source design, and are very good at documenting everything. It's amazing how fast they work. Once the first couple replications are verified, you'll see lots of other people around the world jumping in and making their own versions, each with their own innovative solutions. This is how the world's energy problems will be solved... a bunch of average people tinkering in their garage, not afraid to experiment with new things, who openly share their discoveries in a forum for the rest of the world to see and try.

[tmosley]

Seems like a fairly efficient way to make sawdust, but not much more than that. If the device is airtight, then there is no oxygen to oxidize the wood, meaning it doesn't burn. By turning it into micro or nanoparticles, it does become quite EXPLOSIVE, however.

Perhaps if he had an air intake it might work, but if it is airtight, then it's total BS.

That said, you would be surprised by how much energy there is in a block of wood.

[Ninja Homer]

Seems like a fairly efficient way to make sawdust, but not much more than that. If the device is airtight, then there is no oxygen to oxidize the wood, meaning it doesn't burn. By turning it into micro or nanoparticles, it does become quite EXPLOSIVE, however.

Perhaps if he had an air intake it might work, but if it is airtight, then it's total BS.

That said, you would be surprised by how much energy there is in a block of wood.

I don't know, in the video he said it was airtight, but it may not be. It looks like the steamer box he puts on it just sits on top and seals it by its weight. It could probably suck in some oxygen if it needed it. He did say that when it's done, all that's left is a little ash.

[TastyWheat]

This one is more believable for achieving over-unity, but it doesn't last forever. Even permanent magnets wear themselves out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efCelx7qe_M

[Dieseler]

You all need to read throughout the second link from the OP.
This will work and is extremely efficient. Potentially this is a huge game changer for people who burn oil and gas for heat. Its a game changer for everyone regardless and the only problem is getting it put together right so people don't get hurt.
Five years operation for $100 Dollars worth of wood? C'mon, this is frikking huge!
Thanks Ninja!

[steve005]

it uses HEAT FROM FRICTION! what don't some of you get about that? the energy is coming from the motor turning the wood and making it hot, the heat boils the water, which is in a air tight section

[torchbearer]

it uses HEAT FROM FRICTION! what don't some of you get about that? the energy is coming from the motor turning the wood and making it hot, the heat boils the water, which is in a air tight section

what powers the motor?
Does the amount of energy required to move the motor exceed the amount of energy from the wood boiling water?

[Dr.3D]

I seriously doubt there would be enough steam to run an engine to take the place of the electric motor. Once the head of steam is used up, it would take a lot more heat and time to build up enough pressure and volume of steam to run a steam engine large enough to turn the drum in the chamber.

[Bruno]

It's an interesting concept, and according to the second link a lot of people are interesting in talking to this guy including our buddy T. Boone Pickens.

.


T. Boone Pickens would buy the invention, burn the blueprints, then continue to sell us his tax-subsidized wind power.

[Bruno]

what powers the motor?
Does the amount of energy required to move the motor exceed the amount of energy from the wood boiling water?

Its an electric motor. From the FAQs

Where does the initial energy source come from?

The electric motor gets the electricity to turn the friction wheel from the energy cell it is plugged into. The energy cell gets recharged by the steam generator. The steam generator gets the steam from the boiler. The friction boiler will make more steam than you ever need.

How long will the wood last?

This depends on the size of the heater.
Using the heater shown in the video, the wood will last about 3 days.

[Ninja Homer]

what powers the motor?
Does the amount of energy required to move the motor exceed the amount of energy from the wood boiling water?

In the video, he's using a 1 HP electric motor to spin the hub at 1700 RPM. A 10 pound weight is hanging from a cable that pushes both logs into the hub, so that isn't much pressure and there isn't much drag. It will run at 565 degrees.

So the question is, how much constant steam can be created with a constant 565 degrees, and is it enough to spin the hub at 1700 RPM?

It's also pretty safe to assume that it isn't at maximum efficiency yet, since this was his first test of it.

1 HP = 2545 BTU

I think an electric stove top gets to about 500 degrees, and I think they're about 14000 BTU. So I'd say it's very probable that this will be able to power itself (except for providing the wood of course). Especially when it gets tweaked to be more efficient. There are 1/2 HP or smaller motors that I'm sure could spin that at 1700 RPM, and then it's only taking 1/2 the power to run it.

I'd actually like to see this fitted with a stirling engine rather than steam. I'd think a stirling engine could get at least a couple horse power off it, and then it could spin the hub as well as a generator. I don't like steam, because it tends to make really big messes when things go wrong with it.

[ronpaulhawaii]

Stirling Engines are GREAT

http://www.sunpower.com/

about this machine (from my inbox):


Heat generated by friction can be used to boil water; there are even formulas to caclulate how much heat will be generated using different substances being rubbed together:

Force = “k” times “x” (x=distance) [for Static Friction (Force needed to start something moving from a dead stop)] (“k” is the coefficient of friction, each substance has a different “k” value)

Force = k times dx divided by dt Kinetic friction (Force to continue something moving.... Note the term dx/dt, it refers to change in distance per change in time; which is velocity. The relative speed at which the rubbing ocurrs.

Work is Force over distance

Energy equals Force times distance divided by time

Power is Energy per time

All this culmulates in the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which is the conservation of energy; that is, the heat generated by friction cannot give more power than it takes to get the heat from the friction generating process.

It the exact calculations get complicated (for example):
Heat removed by convection at the interface of two objects rubbed together:
PH = k times A times (TB-TA), where the tem “A” refers to the Force/Work/Energy eguation. (Heat and Power have the same units (Btu’s per hour, or Kilojoules per second [metric])

Trust me, it won’t work; it is a perpetual motion machine.

(Tony) Maresco, CPESC

[Ninja Homer]

You all need to read throughout the second link from the OP.
This will work and is extremely efficient. Potentially this is a huge game changer for people who burn oil and gas for heat. Its a game changer for everyone regardless and the only problem is getting it put together right so people don't get hurt.
Five years operation for $100 Dollars worth of wood? C'mon, this is frikking huge!
Thanks Ninja!

No problem. Hopefully this really does work. People are right to be skeptical. The truth is, there have been a lot of scams where people claim to have free energy devices, then make a lot of money on investors and production goes nowhere. What's different about this one is that it actually does consume a fuel source, the inventor has been very open about how it works and has given all the sketches and ideas he's had on it, the inventor isn't asking for investors, and the concept is so damn simple that almost anybody with just a little skill could go to Home Depot, spend maybe a few hundred dollars on supplies, and build it in a day (minus the steam boiler part).

I might build a little smaller scale one myself just to experiment with. I probably already have most of the materials to make a little one. It's going to have to wait a couple weekends though.

[Dieseler]

I showed the video to my Son yesterday and he got pretty fired up over it. I drew him up a set of plans with all the materials we need to build it and he is on a scavenger hunt as I type this. We are going to use a brake drum off an old International truck for the friction and take the axle and all from the junk yard. I used to work on friction loaders (Pulp wood truck loaders) all the time. I feel like I can put this together pretty quickly and then we will see. The most expensive part I see so far is the bearings. Those will be pretty large. I can get them though.
I'm not sure about the steam tank yet and how I want to implement it over the top of the friction drum so I am planning on just trying to boil a big pot of water first. If that works, well its on with phase two.

Oh one more thing. Think about this if you have doubt of the heat this thing can generate. Ride around the block with your foot slightly on the brake pedal. Then pull the wheel off and try to touch the brake drum. Don't do it.
I will boil water with this. I assure you of that.

[Acala]

Interesting. Maybe it is a very efficient means of burning wood. But I can't think of why it would be more efficient than burning with a low flame in a sealed, insulated fire box with burn rate controlled by air intake rate. And I can think of one big reason why it would be LESS efficient - the pully system and electric motor all waste energy that would not be wasted by just burning the wood slowly in a controlled environment.

[Dieseler]

I guess the twice the wood you burn in 2 hours would last 3 days with the friction wheel as far as fuel goes. I still can't answer confidently enough to say whether or not the machine can create enough steam to run itself with a steam engine. If it can, its still not breaking any rules because it will consume wood so I really don't see what the big deal in trying it is.
Even if it is used with a 1 Hp motor to heat a boiler it will still be far more efficient than slowing down electrons to make heat and using a blower in an electric furnace and even more with a gas furnace to heat
a home.
If it works, its a Hotdog.
If it don't, its a Igloo.
No big loss.

[heavenlyboy34]

http://www.blfdesigns.com/frictionheater/index.shtml

Wood is used to create heat using friction (not burned), which boils water to create steam. The steam can be used for heat, to run a generator, etc. It easily generates enough power to run the electric motor that creates the friction. This is not an "over unity" or "free energy" device... the wood is consumed, just very very efficiently.

The inventor has said that a cord of oak is enough to run the device non-stop for 5 years, putting out a constant temperature of over 500 degrees. The one in the video is a simple prototype. He's working on a better, more efficient design.

More info here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2835-friction-steam-boiler.html

YAY! Cool!

Brought to you courtesy of capitalism and the magic profit motive created by Intellectual Property rights! (Right, evilfunnystuff? ;) )

[Ninja Homer]

This one is more believable for achieving over-unity, but it doesn't last forever. Even permanent magnets wear themselves out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efCelx7qe_M

If it works, great, but that's one of the devices that I just don't trust. It was invented years ago. The inventors sold the rights to a corporation in Hong Kong, and it doesn't look like there has been any further developed on it except they are still offering "investment opportunities." http://www.lutec.com.au

I do believe some invention will come along that completely changes the landscape of energy. That's just how the market works. When one energy supply gets depleted and cost goes up, people start putting work into coming up with something new.

I think this one has some huge potential: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html
To give a short summary of it, they've discovered a phenomena where they hook a regular spark plug up to a certain circuit, they get a much bigger spark for the same amount of energy put into it. If they spray a little water on the spark plug, they get a giant spark that actually seems to be plasma. These plasma sparks are powerful enough to turn an engine, so their hope is that they'll be able to run an engine on water.
Video of the circuit and spark plug in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw
Installed in an old VW Bug (still running gasoline at this point): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWXuFCHwp7Q

[klamath]

Stirling Engines are GREAT

http://www.sunpower.com/

about this machine (from my inbox):

Thank you!

[Ninja Homer]

Stirling Engines are GREAT

http://www.sunpower.com/

about this machine (from my inbox):

Yeah, Stirling engines are pretty awesome. Here's some plans for making a simple little one out of cans: http://www.physics.sfasu.edu/astro/courses/egr112/StirlingEngine/stirling.html

Was that writeup from your inbox specifically about the Friction Steam Boiler? If so, he's missing something really huge. The 2nd law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. Because you have to add wood to it, it is an open system. Calling this a perpetual motion machine is the equivalent of calling a car a perpetual motion machine while ignoring the gas it consumes.

[Dustancostine]

From Wikipedia:

Friction is the force resisting the relative motion of two surfaces in contact or a surface in contact with a fluid (e.g. air on an aircraft or water in a pipe). It is not a fundamental force, as it is derived from electromagnetic forces between atoms and electrons, and so cannot be calculated from first principles, but instead must be found empirically. When contacting surfaces move relative to each other, the friction between the two objects converts kinetic energy into thermal energy, or heat. Friction between solid objects is often referred to as dry friction or sliding friction and between a solid and a gas or liquid as fluid friction. Both of these types of friction are called kinetic friction. Contrary to many popular explanations, sliding friction is caused not by surface roughness but by chemical bonding between the surfaces.[1] Surface roughness and contact area, however, do affect sliding friction for micro- and nano-scale objects where surface area forces dominate inertial forces.[2] Internal friction is the motion-resisting force between the surfaces of the particles making up the substance. Friction should not be confused with traction. Surface area does not affect friction significantly because as contact area increases, force per unit area decreases. However, in traction surface area is essential.

[Ninja Homer]

I showed the video to my Son yesterday and he got pretty fired up over it. I drew him up a set of plans with all the materials we need to build it and he is on a scavenger hunt as I type this. We are going to use a brake drum off an old International truck for the friction and take the axle and all from the junk yard. I used to work on friction loaders (Pulp wood truck loaders) all the time. I feel like I can put this together pretty quickly and then we will see. The most expensive part I see so far is the bearings. Those will be pretty large. I can get them though.
I'm not sure about the steam tank yet and how I want to implement it over the top of the friction drum so I am planning on just trying to boil a big pot of water first. If that works, well its on with phase two.

Oh one more thing. Think about this if you have doubt of the heat this thing can generate. Ride around the block with your foot slightly on the brake pedal. Then pull the wheel off and try to touch the brake drum. Don't do it.
I will boil water with this. I assure you of that.

You're more ambitious than I am. I was just going to make a little one. Maybe use some 3" pvc for the trough the wood sits in, feed the pvc into holes cut in a coffee can, find or make a little steel hub, and spin it with a drill or dremel. Just enough to do a little small scale testing.

I found a video of a wood burning Stirling engine that looks to be about the right size for use on a friction device the size of the one the inventor built:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LOcyjZthsg
I think it would work quite well.

[dannno]

what powers the motor?
Does the amount of energy required to move the motor exceed the amount of energy from the wood boiling water?

Ya, my first thought..

[dannno]

In the video, he's using a 1 HP electric motor to spin the hub at 1700 RPM. A 10 pound weight is hanging from a cable that pushes both logs into the hub, so that isn't much pressure and there isn't much drag. It will run at 565 degrees.

So the question is, how much constant steam can be created with a constant 565 degrees, and is it enough to spin the hub at 1700 RPM?

It's also pretty safe to assume that it isn't at maximum efficiency yet, since this was his first test of it.

1 HP = 2545 BTU

I think an electric stove top gets to about 500 degrees, and I think they're about 14000 BTU. So I'd say it's very probable that this will be able to power itself (except for providing the wood of course). Especially when it gets tweaked to be more efficient. There are 1/2 HP or smaller motors that I'm sure could spin that at 1700 RPM, and then it's only taking 1/2 the power to run it.

I'd actually like to see this fitted with a stirling engine rather than steam. I'd think a stirling engine could get at least a couple horse power off it, and then it could spin the hub as well as a generator. I don't like steam, because it tends to make really big messes when things go wrong with it.


Ahhh

[steve005]

keep us posted

[Mesogen]

what powers the motor?
Does the amount of energy required to move the motor exceed the amount of energy from the wood boiling water?

Of course.

Why do people have to be constantly reminded of thermodynamics?

You cannot get more energy out of the motor than the amount of energy that the motor gets out of the wall socket. What the hell is the point of burning a fuel (like coal) to turn a steam turbine to create electrical power, transmit that power over wires to a home to power a motor to rub a metal disk against wood to create heat to boil water into steam...to do...what?


Anything you need to do would be done more efficiently with the motor itself.


edited to add:

Ok, yeah, as a heat source, it may be more efficient than resistance heaters, so it's got that going for it. (MAYBE)

[angelatc]

it uses HEAT FROM FRICTION! what don't some of you get about that? the energy is coming from the motor turning the wood and making it hot, the heat boils the water, which is in a air tight section


I am thinking that the energy used to run the motor would be put to better use by boiling the water directly.

edited: I should have read the whole thead. I am not the only one who thinks this way.

[Mini-Me]

Although it's clear that the heat generated by friction alone cannot match the energy needed to generate that heat, the fact that the wood is used up might indicate more energy is being released from the wood itself through the combustion of small particles or something similar. After all, when you light a wood with a match and burn it, more energy is released than the original match contained, because the firewood contained its own energy. That's the whole purpose of converting fuel of any kind into usable energy, whether you're talking about wood in a fireplace or gasoline in a combustion engine. The heat energy released by friction itself will certainly be less than the energy required to power the motor, but if that energy can be used to burn fuel very efficiently (the wood), the end result could be more energy being released from the combustion reaction than it takes to power the motor.

It's questionable whether this would actually happen or not, but in terms of the energy present in the system, it's possible.

[Allen72289]

Much of the energy is lost in heating the water.

500 degrees isn't enough for super heated steam.

[dannno]

Much of the energy is lost in heating the water.

500 degrees isn't enough for super heated steam.

Ya, the heat you generate doesn't all go into the water, and the water loses heat..would be difficult to attain near 100% efficiency on that side. I'm still pretty skeptical.

[Dr.3D]

Even if the steam engine is 100% efficient, and the alternator is 100% effecient, it would require 42.42 BTU/Minute to sustain the steam required to run the steam engine/alternator.

Most steam engines are less than 50% efficient and thus it would require 84.84 BTU/Minute to sustain the steam required to run the engine if the alternator were 100% efficient.

That is a heck of a lot of BTU to be getting from friction.

[Ninja Homer]

Well, the first goal to try for is to just get the steam engine to turn the hub. Then you don't have the energy loss of the steam engine turning the alternator, and alternator powering the electric motor. Once that's accomplished, then they'll see if they can run another belt off the steam engine to run an alternator.

Remember, the energy isn't coming from the electric motor, and it isn't coming from the friction; it is coming from the wood. The wood is the fuel in this system. Just like a car's fuel is gasoline even though it is started from a battery which is charged by the alternator from the gas engine.

Does anybody have any idea how much constant steam you can get off 565 degrees? I've been trying to find out, and I'm out of places to search and have no idea how to figure it out. Another thing to keep in mind is that you can condense the steam after it has left the steam engine, and recycle the hot water back into the boiler intake, so then it doesn't take nearly as much energy to turn it to steam. The reason I specifically ask about 565 degrees is that is how hot the inventor has reached, but since that was his first try at this system I'm guessing a few modifications could make it hotter.

This steam engine looks pretty efficient: http://www.greensteamengine.com/
It gets up to 10 HP with 200 psi, but can operate off 20 psi.

People can guess all they want in this thread whether this will work or not, but we'll know soon enough because at least one person has a nice start on a replication:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2835-friction-steam-boiler-3.html#post32600

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it."
--Chinese Proverb

[Dr.3D]

Does anybody have any idea how much constant steam you can get off 565 degrees? I've been trying to find out, and I'm out of places to search and have no idea how to figure it out.

Temperature is not a measurement of energy.

If you just heat just one square inch of metal to 565 degrees. It wouldn't take as much energy as it would to heat one square foot of the same metal to 565 degrees.

Also, maintaining that temperature would be another matter. If you were to heat the bottom of a test tube and the water in it started to boil, it would take less energy to make it boil than it would to heat a one quart pan of water and make it boil. Now, in order to boil water at 565 degrees, it has to be confined in a pressure vessel. Once you start letting the steam out of that vessel, it requires more energy to again make up the pressure to maintain the 565 degree steam.

There is no way to determine from the temperature how much steam you can get from a 565 degree burner. You need to have either calories or BTU in order to determine how much energy you are dealing with.

[klamath]

Temperature is not a measurement of energy.

If you just heat just one square inch of metal to 565 degrees. It wouldn't take as much energy as it would to heat one square foot of the same metal to 565 degrees.

Also, maintaining that temperature would be another matter. If you were to heat the bottom of a test tube and the water in it started to boil, it would take less energy to make it boil than it would to heat a one quart pan of water and make it boil. Now, in order to boil water at 565 degrees, it has to be confined in a pressure vessel. Once you start letting the steam out of that vessel, it requires more energy to again make up the pressure to maintain the 565 degree steam.

There is no way to determine from the temperature how much steam you can get from a 565 degree burner. You need to have either calories or BTU in order to determine how much energy you are dealing with.

Thank you Doc.

[Allen72289]

Temperature is not a measurement of energy.

If you just heat just one square inch of metal to 565 degrees. It wouldn't take as much energy as it would to heat one square foot of the same metal to 565 degrees.

Also, maintaining that temperature would be another matter. If you were to heat the bottom of a test tube and the water in it started to boil, it would take less energy to make it boil than it would to heat a one quart pan of water and make it boil. Now, in order to boil water at 565 degrees, it has to be confined in a pressure vessel. Once you start letting the steam out of that vessel, it requires more energy to again make up the pressure to maintain the 565 degree steam.

There is no way to determine from the temperature how much steam you can get from a 565 degree burner. You need to have either calories or BTU in order to determine how much energy you are dealing with.

Are you an engineer ?? :o

[Dr.3D]

Are you an engineer ?? :o

Yeah... 30 years now retired... controls... Delphi Automotive Systems.