Why are we sitting on our asses letting our Liberty being stripped from us?

[fahayek]

I'm ready to do something about it. Obviously theses fuckers in congress go against what the people want and do "what's best for this country". Fuck them! We're doomed if we just sit around and post youtube videos. Let's pool together our money, hire a constitutional lawyer and take this shit to the Supreme Court. Let's get this ball rolling NOW!

Who knows a good trustworthy lawyer? Who's even willing to do this? At least give me a head nod if you're scared.

[tpreitzel]

I'm ready to do something about it. Obviously theses fuckers in congress go against what the people want and do "what's best for this country". Fuck them! We're doomed if we just sit around and post youtube videos. Let's pool together our money, hire a constitutional lawyer and take this shit to the Supreme Court. Let's get this ball rolling NOW!

Who knows a good trustworthy lawyer? Who's even willing to do this? At least give me a head nod if you're scared.

I can't say that I disagree fundamentally, but you're making a big assumption that the judicial system is actually just. ;) Yes, we need to do more than post videos on YouTube, however.. Personally, the US is beyond saving, but we must continue to try while working to secede.

[fahayek]

I can't say that I disagree fundamentally, but you're making a big assumption that the judicial system is actually just. ;) Yes, we need to do more than post videos on YouTube, however.. Personally, the US is beyond saving, but we must continue to try while working to secede.

Let's find out if they are just or not. We have to do something. I am willing to take time and fly to where ever to meet with a lawyer on my on dime if we can get something rolling on this.

Who's a good constitutional lawyer? Suggest one and I will call.

[tpreitzel]

Let's find out if they are just or not. We have to do something. I am willing to take time and fly to where ever to meet with a lawyer on my on dime if we can get something rolling on this.

Who's a good constitutional lawyer? Suggest one and I will call.

I don't know any "good" constitutional lawyers personally, but the law offices of Peroutka and Peroutka in Pasadena, MD might be a place to start. Try contacting www.iotconline.com ...

[Mahkato]

If we vote, they will cheat.
If we lobby, they will outspend.
If we educate, they will propagandize.
If we sue, they will buy the judges.
If we speak against them, they will call us terrorists.
If we riot, they will declare martial law.
If we sit around, they will steal our property out from under us.

What are we to do?

[torchbearer]

If we vote, they will cheat.
If we lobby, they will outspend.
If we educate, they will propagandize.
If we sue, they will buy the judges.
If we speak against them, they will call us terrorists.
If we riot, they will declare martial law.
If we sit around, they will steal our property out from under us.

What are we to do?

Water the tree of liberty?

[mlmvh]

FWIW, the Granny Warriors have something going on; check this out -

http://www.freedomisnotdead.org/

[bcreps85]

Water the tree of liberty?

Amen.

[Real_CaGeD]

RINO's rUnNiNg RaMpAnT!!!

[Razorback Fan]

I guarantee there are tens of thousands of people just waiting to "do something about it."

Don't worry. When the going gets *really* tough, there will be no shortage of tough people getting going.

[Josh_LA]

Because libertarian pussies tell us that initiation of force to achieve goals is wrong, founding fathers would be proud of us.

[satchelmcqueen]

well im not gonna say just exactly what i mean here, but i think its going to take more than lawyers and courts to fix this. if i knew for sure there were many thousands of others who would stand with me...well lets just say things would change by force for the good of the people. now THATS a war ild die for.

[Razorback Fan]

Because libertarian pussies tell us that initiation of force to achieve goals is wrong, founding fathers would be proud of us.

The Libertarian Party only asks you to sign a statement of non-violence because they don't want to be prosecuted as terrorists. They know the score as well as you do.

[JK/SEA]

Wait till it takes a thousand dollars to fill your 15 gal. gas tank. There 'might' be blowback.

Also, i expect a false flag event . But thats just me.

[Deborah K]

We need to do a better job organizing. I was hopeful that C4L would help with that, but I don't think so. If we wait around for shtf, then we'll end up with martial law because anarchy will erupt. We need a game plan.

[MsDoodahs]

My honest expectation is for the US to balkanize.

I remember this from a while back...

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/205-north-america-the-balkans-version/

[RonPaulVolunteer]

"we" ??

[tpreitzel]

We need to do a better job organizing. I was hopeful that C4L would help with that, but I don't think so. If we wait around for shtf, then we'll end up with martial law because anarchy will erupt. We need a game plan.

It's possible to make a politician's life in your area absolutely miserable without laying a hand on him or his family directly.

[Deborah K]

"we" ??

"We" meaning the freedom movement.

[AJ Antimony]

What can you do? Run for Congress and campaign hard!

[Deborah K]

The only viable remaining plan is probably force. Political targets are numerous if small groups want to act unilaterally. It's possible to make a politician's life in your area absolutely miserable without laying a hand on him or his family directly. Different members of a group could set up stumbling blocks in the daily lives of these people and their families that would literally drive them into a nervous breakdown. One could accidentally bump into them is public places, etc, but you'd have to vary personnel and tactics so you wouldn't be charged for stalking, etc. Use really small groups because there is always a snitch in every bunch. Could it be done? Yes. Do I recommend these tactics? No, for obvious reasons.


This just makes my point. It would take organization.

[tpreitzel]

This just makes my point. It would take organization.

Locally, yes.

[politicus]

When South Korean's are upset they take to the streets. In the 1980's they were ruled by military dictatorship. Students and workers took to the streets every single day and demanded the right to vote. The police fought them, they fought back. They forced the government to them the right to vote.

Current President Lee Myung Bak was formerly CEO of Hyundai Contruction. He is known as the "Bulldozer" because he would do anything to get his way.

This summer, Korean's were outraged by President Lee Myung Bak's policies. His secret agreement with President Bush to begin importing beef may have been the spark, but anti-Lee Myung Bak sentiment had been developing for months.

Korean citizens took the streets every single day for weeks. Students and families would meet after class and work and blockade Sejongno, the main street in front of the Presidential Mansion. As indicated in the article below from the Economist, every single member of the cabinet offered his resignation. Even though President Lee is still in the first year of his five year term, his unpopular policies are dead in the water.

South Korea's president is confronted by massive protests.

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11527004


THE massive demonstration on the evening of Tuesday June 10th was a sight to behold. At least 100,000 protesters were crammed together in downtown Seoul, hemmed in by shipping containers dumped onto the streets and by police buses. The authorities feared violent incidents, they said. In particular they wanted to prevent the crowd from marching upon the office of the president, Lee Myung-bak. On the 21st anniversary of a protest that helped to bring down the military dictatorship of Chun Doo-hwan, Mr Lee was taking no chances. But he and his government look increasingly isolated.

It was doubtful, in any case, that the candlelit demonstration would have turned violent. Mothers pushing babies in prams, Catholic nuns, pensioners and school girls prim in their uniforms were unlikely to turn into a Molotov-cocktail throwing mob. A Buddhist monk held aloft one of many signs calling on Mr Lee to resign.

A few hours earlier, South Korea’s 15 cabinet ministers, plus the prime minister, had submitted their resignations. They joined Mr Lee’s nine senior aides, including his chief-of-staff, who had also offered to quit. The president’s office hints that five ministers may actually go, including the prime minister and the ministers of agriculture and foreign affairs.

[danberkeley]

Because libertarian pussies tell us that initiation of force to achieve goals is wrong, founding fathers would be proud of us.

according to libertarian philosophy, the state, by it's very nature, is coercive. there wouldn't be any "initiation" of force on our part since the state used force on us first. what you should be asking is: who has the bigger guns?

[Josh_LA]

according to libertarian philosophy, the state, by it's very nature, is coercive. there wouldn't be any "initiation" of force on our part since the state used force on us first. what you should be asking is: who has the bigger guns?

agreed. so it's justifiable to kill people in the state. you're not a libertardian than.

[jkm1864]

What try to pay a lawyer to help us win in a no win situation. I think my money is best spent with my new hobby collecting rifles. So let me know how the lawyer goes because I seriously doubt it will do any good.

[torchbearer]

Its called self defense if your government is weilding unauthorized force against you in the form of tyranny.

[CurtisLow]

Water the tree of liberty


+1

[Xenophage]

Because libertarian pussies tell us that initiation of force to achieve goals is wrong, founding fathers would be proud of us.

You obviously don't know very many libertarians. Half the country's privately owned guns are owned by less than a percent of the country's population.

Libertarians believe in self defense, and we're eager to respond to force already initiated, or initiating it to save someone else. What libertarians will never do is: initiate *coercive* force.

[Xenophage]

Anyway, we're essentially fucked as a country. What we should really be trying to do right now is A) figure out how to survive the coming years and B) plan for the reconstruction.

[danberkeley]

agreed. so it's justifiable to kill people in the state. you're not a libertardian than.

I'm "not a libertardian than" what? Or did you mean "then"?

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

I think we all know what will have to be done in the end.

Let the Campaign For Liberty be our Sons Of Liberty.

Let Ron Paul be our Sam Adams.

Let the internet be our pub.

Let the Revolution begin.

[Anti Federalist]

If we vote, they will cheat.
If we lobby, they will outspend.
If we educate, they will propagandize.
If we sue, they will buy the judges.
If we speak against them, they will call us terrorists.
If we riot, they will declare martial law.
If we sit around, they will steal our property out from under us.

What are we to do?

+1 for stating the situation succinctly.

[Anti Federalist]

Water the tree of liberty?

+1776 for stating the solution just as succinctly.

Secession NOW!!

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

I just worry that if the government did get out of hand and say got rid of a few Ron Paul websites like this one, we would suddenly become very unorganized.

We need to be more organized then we are online. The C4L needs to become like a National Organization with regional chapters that meet once a month.

[Truth Warrior]

Why are we sitting on our asses letting our Liberty being stripped from us?

Because the voters continue to delegate their power to government, to strip our Liberty from us.<IMHO>

[Josh_LA]

I'm "not a libertardian than" what? Or did you mean "then"?

yes, i meaned "then", just becuz i isn't a libertardian doesnt mean i isn't a retard at all.

[Pauls' Revere]

FWIW, the Granny Warriors have something going on; check this out -

http://www.freedomisnotdead.org/

The CFL should be doing this...set it up as a corp issue stocks/bonds to the shareholders (thats you and me) and then invest in gold backed investments or start our own bank. Then the corp issues it's own debit cards (like GM and others do) and we the shareholders can purchase stock (deposit) and use the debit catds (withdraw) from the accounts. Well, thats it in a nutshell I'm sure there are other details but we shoud be setting up our own corp and issue stocks.

[Michigan11]

The American Revolution was fought and won by only 3-4% of the population.

[Truth Warrior]

The American Revolution was fought and won by only 3-4% of the population. Hmmm, and ~4% of the population are sociopaths.

~4% of the population, above the voter level, are the most politically active segment. Same was true in Nazi Germany and the USSR.

Coincidences? ;)

Perhaps. :D

[Ozwest]

I guess, it's Hollywood.

[Ozwest]

Some refer to it as 'dumbing down."

[Ozwest]

I dunno know...

Why are you guys such useless pricks?

[Truth Warrior]

I dunno know...

Why are you guys such useless pricks? We're patterning ourselves after you. ;)

[freelance]

I'm ready to do something about it. Obviously theses fuckers in congress go against what the people want and do "what's best for this country". Fuck them! We're doomed if we just sit around and post youtube videos. Let's pool together our money, hire a constitutional lawyer and take this shit to the Supreme Court. Let's get this ball rolling NOW!

Who knows a good trustworthy lawyer? Who's even willing to do this? At least give me a head nod if you're scared.

I would suggest someone with terminal cancer might be a qualified applicant.

[Ozwest]

We're patterning ourselves after you. ;)

Good.

But just cause I'm a useless prick, doesn't mean you have to follow my foot-steps...

[Ozwest]

I guess nothing gets you "stirred up."

[Ozwest]

Bend over, and take it "like a useless prick would.'

[Ozwest]

As Stevie Ray Vaughn would say...

"Take it like a Texan should."

[constituent]

ahem...

"i can do it to you baby like a texan should"

[Ozwest]

ahem...

"i can do it to you baby like a texan should"

ahem...

Too right! :)

[danberkeley]

yes, i meaned "then", just becuz i isn't a libertardian doesnt mean i isn't a retard at all.

what?

[CasualApathy]

Violence solves nothing. we can have our revolution without initiating any violence at all. Ghandi is a great hero to Dr. Paul and his life should inspire us all. We don't want to be an armed coup or a terrorist organization do we? That is what you are suggesting would make us. What we need are marches and speeches, and lots of them. We need the american people actively behind us and speeking out before we can have a true and lasting revolution. People don't tend to support violent acts. You are in fact promoting that this movement abandon it's very soul principles, and why?

for justice?

[torchbearer]

Violence solves nothing. we can have our revolution without initiating any violence at all. Ghandi is a great hero to Dr. Paul and his life should inspire us all. We don't want to be an armed coup or a terrorist organization do we? That is what you are suggesting would make us. What we need are marches and speeches, and lots of them. We need the american people actively behind us and speeking out before we can have a true and lasting revolution. People don't tend to support violent acts. You are in fact promoting that this movement abandon it's very soul principles, and why?

for justice?

Someone points a gun at you, and means to kill you.
If you don't fight back. You die.
If you fight back, you may live.
Violence does solve some things.
Absolutes are often wrong, and this country is proof of that...
We shed blood to found a free country, we didn't sit and let the king continuously enslave us to his whim.

You have no rights as a pacifist. You are a prisoner to every aggressor.

[torchbearer]

In otherwords, self-defense is not the same as aggression, but both require violence.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

Violence solves nothing. we can have our revolution without initiating any violence at all. Ghandi is a great hero to Dr. Paul and his life should inspire us all. We don't want to be an armed coup or a terrorist organization do we? That is what you are suggesting would make us. What we need are marches and speeches, and lots of them. We need the american people actively behind us and speeking out before we can have a true and lasting revolution. People don't tend to support violent acts. You are in fact promoting that this movement abandon it's very soul principles, and why?

for justice?

Would you consider the Continental Army a "armed coup" or a "terrorist organization"?

They were after all just fighting against taxation. In todays day in age people would be appalled.

[CasualApathy]

Someone points a gun at you, and means to kill you.
If you don't fight back. You die.
If you fight back, you may live.
Violence does solve some things.
Absolutes are often wrong, and this country is proof of that...
We shed blood to found a free country, we didn't sit and let the king continuously enslave us to his whim.

You have no rights as a pacifist. You are a prisoner to every aggressor.

Self defence is exactly the situation you described, your life is in immediate danger and you are justified in defending yourself even if it means killing your attacker. In this situation your attacker is clearly identifiable and your actions strictly nessecary. The act of violence in itself is still wrong, you just have no choice.

When you are suggesting initiating violence on someone who isn't threatening your life, that is very different. In this situation you are making the choice to hurt or kill someone while you are not forced to. You don't HAVE to, but because you have deemed him an enemy you feel justified in doing so - this is the reason for all the wars, murdering and misery throughout history. Is this a tradition you plan on continuing?

The simple truth is that this is all a struggle of ideas, and we are winning battles every day. Don't let your despair blind you from the morality of your own actions, we can not condemn the violence of the state and then resort to it ourselves when it seems the easyer choice.

[CasualApathy]

Would you consider the Continental Army a "armed coup" or a "terrorist organization"?

They were after all just fighting against taxation. In todays day in age people would be appalled.

I don't see armies marching in the streets. I don't see troops stealing from you and raping your daughters. I'm sorry, but don't compare this government's abuse to that which the founders faced - it is simply not that bad yet. We still have enough freedom to advance our cause peacefully, and as long as that is the case it is what we must do.

[torchbearer]

Self defence is exactly the situation you described, your life is in immediate danger and you are justified in defending yourself even if it means killing your attacker. In this situation your attacker is clearly identifiable and your actions strictly nessecary. The act of violence in itself is still wrong, you just have no choice.

When you are suggesting initiating violence on someone who isn't threatening your life, that is very different. In this situation you are making the choice to hurt or kill someone while you are not forced to. You don't HAVE to, but because you have deemed him an enemy you feel justified in doing so - this is the reason for all the wars, murdering and misery throughout history. Is this a tradition you plan on continuing?

The simple truth is that this is all a struggle of ideas, and we are winning battles every day. Don't let your despair blind you from the morality of your own actions, we can not condemn the violence of the state and then resort to it ourselves when it seems the easyer choice.

Is liberty worth dying for?
Is taxation slavery?
Are you so certain about your answers that you would condem me to a life of slavery to save the bloodshed that would be required for me to be free of tyranny?
Let us not hurt the butterfly that got in the way. All life is too precious?
Are you living in this country? Are you willing to make that decision for me?

[torchbearer]

If you have ever driven a car, you've killed more innocent life than Lincoln.

[torchbearer]

and yes, the military/para-military is walking the streets of my state: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko74IxSVj3Q

[CasualApathy]

If you have ever driven a car, you've killed more innocent life than Lincoln.

You are simply being ridiculous by suggesting that I would not have the common sense to realise the difference between animal and human life. I am talking about what is right, and I don't care how good a case you say you have for initiating violence, it is still wrong - especially when you have other choices for advancing the cause of liberty and restoring justice. This is not the end my friend, it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The people have to wake up, and if you act stupid and commit violence people will reject us and everything we stand for - and they should.

[torchbearer]

You are simply being ridiculous by suggesting that I would not have the common sense to realise the difference between animal and human life. I am talking about what is right, and I don't care how good a case you say you have for initiating violence, it is still wrong - especially when you have other choices for advancing the cause of liberty and restoring justice. This is not the end my friend, it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The people have to wake up, and if you act stupid and commit violence people will reject us and everything we stand for - and they should.

Did you watch the youtube?

[CasualApathy]

Did you watch the youtube?

I know about it all.

[torchbearer]

I know about it all.

You were there?
Were you there when Ron won our caucus and the leadership of the LAGOP gave it to McCain, and had large men walking the aisles and intimidating anyone who would speak otherwise?
Were you there?
I don't think so... you get your views from the news, and you speak without having a clue what bullshit we are dealing with in our government.
You ignorance is downright insulting.

[CasualApathy]

You were there?
Were you there when Ron won our caucus and the leadership of the LAGOP gave it to McCain, and had large men walking the aisles and intimidating anyone who would speak otherwise?
Were you there?
I don't think so... you get your views from the news, and you speak without having a clue what bullshit we are dealing with in our government.
You ignorance is downright insulting.

alright, bring on the insults - I am not going to participate in it though. I have said my peace. Your insinuation that I could not know what you are dealing with without being present at every atrocity is intellectually dishonest. To quote Ron Paul when dealing with that type of argument: "Why do I have to be in Iraq to read the constitution?". By the way, are any of us allowed to talk about Iraq if we haven't been there? After all, how can we possibly know enough about what is happening there to form an opinion?

[torchbearer]

alright, bring on the insults - I am not going to participate in it though. I have said my peace. Your insinuation that I could not know what you are dealing with without being present at every atrocity is intellectually dishonest. To quote Ron Paul when dealing with that type of argument: "Why do I have to be in Iraq to read the constitution?". By the way, are any of us allowed to talk about Iraq if we haven't been there? After all, how can we possibly know enough about what is happening there to form an opinion?

You can't know if you weren't there. You are insulted because the truth is you are ignorant of the facts, and you wish to condem us who don't wish to live in fear of our government and its force.
I don't go around pushing myself on people. I've never thrown a punch in my life... so when I say, I will fight this tyranny, and you pretend to judge me from across an ocean... you insult me... not the other way around.

[Leroy_Jenkems]

Join the Lakota Nation:
http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

See also:
http://www.paulville.org/forums/post.php?cat=3&fid=1&pid=34&page=1

And this thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=148323

Make your own damn Liberty; it's a renewable resource. Unplug from this fascist system.

[CasualApathy]

You can't know if you weren't there. You are insulted because the truth is you are ignorant of the facts, and you wish to condem us who don't wish to live in fear of our government and its force.
I don't go around pushing myself on people. I've never thrown a punch in my life... so when I say, I will fight this tyranny, and you pretend to judge me from across an ocean... you insult me... not the other way around.

Yea. ... No tyranny over here.

I live in Copenhagen, Denmark. It's quite a lovely city actually, and our capitol. Problem is we never had anything remotely as good as your constitution, but we still had anti-terror legislation similar to your patriot act passed.

You call me ignorant, but you could not be more wrong, as I said I know about all of it - much more then I ever cared to know. I also know that peace can not last when built on violence, and I value my principles above even my own life. I can not tell you what to do, all I can do is promote my belief in peace and freedom just like everybody else can promote their beliefs. I know that my actions must reflect those beliefs, and I know that this is the only way of achieving a lasting change, by inspireing others to follow my example. I will not resort to violence because while my beliefs may reqiure civil disobedience, committing acts of violence against others unless in self defence would violate and invalidate them.