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catwoman
09-06-2007, 11:31 AM
I need some advice. I'm having a debate/discussion, well at least I'm trying to, with someone over the constitutionality of the Patriot Act. This persons response is always well, when SCOTUS says its unconstitutional get back to me. Otherwise, it's constitutional. Actually that is their response to everything that RP wants to change.

This person also apparently believes that the constitution went out the window when 9/11 happened.

Any ideas on what to say to this person?

risiusj
09-06-2007, 11:35 AM
Sounds like you have a difficult task.

If he thinks that 9/11 changed the fact that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, then it's tough to get him to realize that our freedoms, that are explicitly stated in the Constitution, are guaranteed.

blazin_it_alwyz
09-06-2007, 11:36 AM
The constitution is the only reason this country was freed in 1776. The reason we are free, is because of our founding fathers, who teachings go against everything that is the Patriot Act.

To deny that, is to deny reality, every time, on the 4th of July, you go out and celebrate the fireworks, and celebrate your freedom. Think about the principles this country was founded on.

also, a quote from the great Ben Franklin

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

JoshLowry
09-06-2007, 11:37 AM
Actually part of the patriot act was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge today. Is that unconstitutional enough? :p

Send this to your friend: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070906/ap_on_re_us/patriot_act_lawsuit;_ylt=AkJvN6Zx6Cuy.jPgz9ys5WSs0 NUE

noxagol
09-06-2007, 11:38 AM
Well, first call them a moron and quote I think Benjamin Franklin when he said, when you give up a little liberty for a little security, you get neither.

And the supreme court doesn't have to decide something is unconstitutional for it to be unconstitutional. And they have judge parts to be unconstitutional, watch that 4 part video with Judge Napolitano, he mentions this. Plus, the supreme court can only rule on cases that people bring to it, and the patriot act works to prevent this by making it illegal to notify anyone that you have been violated.

And just because it is constitutuional does not mean it is good. Look at the fair tax, it is constitutional, but it isn't good. What is good is no taxes.

catwoman
09-06-2007, 11:40 AM
The constitution is the only reason this country was freed in 1776. The reason we are free, is because of our founding fathers, who teachings go against everything that is the Patriot Act.

To deny that, is to deny reality, every time, on the 4th of July, you go out and celebrate the fireworks, and celebrate your freedom. Think about the principles this country was founded on.

also, a quote from the great Ben Franklin

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Yeah, I basically tried that approach, but the response was this:

"May I remind you of more current history? September 11, 2001.....but, ok , let's go back to the days of yore as you suggest...no cell phones...no computers...no satellites...no wireless communication of any kind...Why didn't I think of that as a solution? This is the 21st C. not the 19th or 20th but have it your way...let's go back to the 'good 'old days.' It will solve everything....roflmao. "

catwoman
09-06-2007, 11:42 AM
Actually part of the patriot act was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge today. Is that unconstitutional enough? :p

Send this to your friend: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070906/ap_on_re_us/patriot_act_lawsuit;_ylt=AkJvN6Zx6Cuy.jPgz9ys5WSs0 NUE

Thank you very much!! I had not seen this yet. I shall get this info out right away. :D :D

ARealConservative
09-06-2007, 11:42 AM
patriot act unconstitutional:

http://rawstory.com//news/2007/Federal_court_strikes_down_part_of_0906.html


that should sufficiently squash his lame straw man.

ARealConservative
09-06-2007, 11:43 AM
Actually part of the patriot act was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge today. Is that unconstitutional enough? :p

Send this to your friend: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070906/ap_on_re_us/patriot_act_lawsuit;_ylt=AkJvN6Zx6Cuy.jPgz9ys5WSs0 NUE

Josh - I want a hat with that logo in your avatar - any ideas on where to find one?

JoshLowry
09-06-2007, 11:45 AM
Josh - I want a hat with that logo in your avatar - any ideas on where to find one?

Sorry no, I made it just for the avatar so it's a small size.

I will try to make a larger one that can be used for a hat/shirt sometime soon!

noxagol
09-06-2007, 11:47 AM
Then tell him to read the 9/11 commision report. All of this buearacracy is what allowed the attack to occur. They knew it was going to happen, but inefficiency prevented it from being stopped.

And his comment about going back to the 1700's is an absurd fallacy.

catwoman
09-06-2007, 11:51 AM
Hey thanks everyone. I'll let you know what the response is. I am anticipating he'll say well a Federal Judge isn't SCOTUS, thus I'm still right. But we'll see.